What about Family-Integrated Churches?

Over the last decade, there's been a movement afoot to return to the traditional format of the church assembly to include all family members during all worship services.

What do you think about this? What do think the Bible has to say about it? Do you think Youth Groups are categorically, across-the-board wrong? Or is there a place for them if done right? What about Sunday School classes of all ages and grades? What about baby nurseries?

Discuss.

My family attends a family-integrated church in North Carolina. We have no youth groups of Sunday School-the whole family worships together. I like this way better than the way the church we attended in Pennsylvania, before we moved, did it. They had it all-SS, youth group, and nurseries
Youth groups basically take discipleship of the kids away from the parents (if anyone has seen Divided you'll know what I mean). I think the church of America has fallen from the Bible's standards of worship.

I don't think there's anything wrong with youth groups/sunday schools outside of the worship service. I think for the service itself (e.g., the singing, the prayers, the sermon, the offering, etc.), all members of the family ought to be present and that there shouldn't be divisions with 'kid church' or whatever, but that Sunday schools and youth groups are fine and good.

I agree completely with Josiah. All family members should be present during the service, but it is okay to "split up" for Sunday School.

I belong to a family-integrated church (though we still have a nursery in case the very young ones need to be taken there for some reason) and I support them. I just don't see any Scriptural evidence for Sunday schools or youth groups - whatever "evidence" exists does not necessarily mean what it's thought to mean. I don't mean to be dogmatic, of course, or say that parents and children should NEVER be separated, but what I see in God's Word tends to put the responsibility for child-rearing squarely on the shoulders of the parent (i.e. Deut. 11:19, Eph. 6:4, Prov. 1:8, 2 Tim. 1:5, etc.) and never mentions the church as rearing them separately from other believers. While Sunday schools and such can be "good", they can take away from the "best" - what Scripture outlines: fathers and mothers consistently discipling children throughout the day. With a church providing an alternative method of youth ministry, parents feel free to let their local Sunday school teacher or youth group leader be the primary provider in instruction in godliness, instead of how it should be - parents as the primary instructors in godliness for their children. There are other issues, too - having Sunday schools and such requires instituting a lot of offices that the Scriptures do not mandate, and the idea of grouping young people together tends to create a leveling effect that delays maturity, while mixing ages tends to create a maturing effect where the older teach the younger (i.e. Titus 2:3-4).

I apologize if I in any way appear dogmatic, insistent, disrespectful, etc., as this was not my intent. I just feel strongly about this.

Keep discussing, sharing opinions, and bringing up points~

In regards to my previous comment:

Youth groups are completely ok unless it causes one to look up to his/her youth pastor rather than his/her parents.

You go, girl! (@Talia "Storymaker")

It was almost like I could close my eyes, and hear Pastor Voddie Baucham speaking.

I will continue to not weigh in on this topic (though I did a little with my words above), and let others continue to weigh in with their own comments. It's nice to see everyone express their beliefs so articulately.

Now, let's see some more Scriptures thrown in to support yourselves, and this thing will get even more interesting.

Here are my thoughts:

1. Concerning Scriptural evidence for this. I would view the fact that Scripture says nothing about Sunday School/youth group/other related activities a strong argument that it's fine. I don't think that you have to have it. But, since the Scripture says nothing about it, and it isn't part of the worship service (hence not governed by the regulative principle), I believe that you can't argue against it by principle.
2. Concerning the job of the parent. Yes, child-rearing is a responsibility strictly to the parent. But that doesn't mean the parent has to do all the teaching. Hence, pastors teaching children, teachers teaching them (e.g., college professors, teachers in public/private schools) is all fine. (Ignoring whether or not its wise to send young children to public school where they basically teach atheism…) Therefore, I think the argument against sunday school from this aspect also falls short.
3. Concerning separate offices instituted. No additional offices have to be instituted for sunday school/youth group.
4. Concerning grouping together of youth. I don't see how a grouping of youth for a temporary time is harmful. I mean, at the Bible Bee (assuming you do it), at Nationals there are times when we're just waiting to be able to go to the oral rounds and its 300 youth in the room with a couple people to moderate… Basically like youth group format with a few adults and lots of kids, but on a larger skill. But does it hinder maturity? On the contrary, I have had great discussions with people at BB that have helped to mature me.

And lastly, I don't think that many parents view a 'youth pastor/teacher' type figure as the primary source of education for a child's life. And if they do, they're to blame, not the format.

Interesting discussion…. I don't know what the statistics are, but I think there is a tremendous lack of teaching in the home.* I wouldn't be surprised if many children in the church learn more at church about Christ than at home…. And if that's the case, then parents can't avoid thinking of the church as the primary source of education.

While a format may not be bad, that doesn't mean something else may not be better. And if a particular style is causing parents to shift responsibility, then there is a problem. If the style doesn't change, parents should at least be aware that their responsibility is in no way mitigated.

Good discussion!

P.S. I know Wikipedia is not terribly reliable, but the article on Sunday schools has some helpful introductory (perhaps often unknown) information about their original intent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunday_school.

*Does anybody know any statistics on this? I think some parents feel intimidated to teach their children the Bible. They may feel inadequate themselves. Personally, I think the Bible Bee is a great way to introduce entire families to inductive Bible study.

Here are my thoughts: 1. Concerning Scriptural evidence for this. I would view the fact that Scripture says nothing about Sunday School/youth group/other related activities a strong argument that it's fine. I don't think that you have to have it. But, since the Scripture says nothing about it, and it isn't part of the worship service (hence not governed by the regulative principle), I believe that you can't argue against it by principle. 2. Concerning the job of the parent. Yes, child-rearing is a responsibility strictly to the parent. But that doesn't mean the parent has to do all the teaching. Hence, pastors teaching children, teachers teaching them (e.g., college professors, teachers in public/private schools) is all fine. (Ignoring whether or not its wise to send young children to public school where they basically teach atheism...) Therefore, I think the argument against sunday school from this aspect also falls short. 3. Concerning separate offices instituted. No additional offices have to be instituted for sunday school/youth group. 4. Concerning grouping together of youth. I don't see how a grouping of youth for a temporary time is harmful. I mean, at the Bible Bee (assuming you do it), at Nationals there are times when we're just waiting to be able to go to the oral rounds and its 300 youth in the room with a couple people to moderate... Basically like youth group format with a few adults and lots of kids, but on a larger skill. But does it hinder maturity? On the contrary, I have had great discussions with people at BB that have helped to mature me. And lastly, I don't think that many parents view a 'youth pastor/teacher' type figure as the primary source of education for a child's life. And if they do, they're to blame, not the format.

You made some good points, but…

1. I guess it depends on how you view Scripture…but just remember: just because the Scripture isn't expressly against something doesn't mean it's for it. I think that Sunday schools do tend to foster parental irresponsibility - which I will discuss more deeply soon.
2. I don't think it's wrong for other people to teach children, but the ultimate responsibility, as you agree, is the parents'. I think it's hard to argue that the culture created by age segregation hasn't caused parents to abandon their responsibility. Of course, you don't want to create an environment where bad behavior is sponsored. In my opinion, Sunday schools and youth groups DO cause that. Scripture clearly subscribes the best education technique for children - teaching being the parents' responsibility - and when you attempt to "add" youth groups to that, you actually take away from the better technique God prescribes.
3. Youth pastor…children's minister…student pastor…aren't those new offices?
4. I'm certainly not saying that youth can never be grouped together. It CAN have a maturing effect, as you say. But I do maintain that you lose out on a lot of benefits if separating kids is the norm…and in many age-segregated churches, this sadly is the case. But I do agree, this isn't the strongest or only reason I believe in age integration.

I believe that, because parents are ultimately responsible for raising their children, they ARE to blame for abdicating their responsibility, and they can't just excuse themselves by blaming the church's system. But we don't want a system that largely functions to allow that irresponsibility by separating parents and children. I just don't believe it's healthy.

Of course, I'm still young and not the best at arguing for things. I deeply appreciate the fact that we can discuss this respectfully and share our opinions in a loving, godly way. I just think that age segregation does tend to foster an environment where fathers (and mothers) are more likely to turn away from their children and not believe that they're responsible for their spiritual education. Please don't get me wrong. Parents CAN get other people to teach their children. That is not wrong! But I don't think the church should segregate ages for the various reasons stated so far.

Also - I haven't gotten into the theological meat of this enough, but part of the reason age integration flies is because of the philosophy that the church should only do what is expressly prescribed in Scripture. (I believe this is called the normative principal?) This is a pretty deep theological topic and I myself haven't gotten too far into it. It could even have its own thread.

Anyway, that's my opinion, but I'm open to further discussion.

@Talia:

I think you really need to go post more of your response to a lot more of the other forums and topics on MemVerse! Each time I read one of your posts, I'm like,

"Who is this?! I really enjoy what's being written here!"

Keep up the fine posts! You present yourself well.

@Everyone else: C'mon, everyone! Scripture does address this subject, but just in more indirect ways that you have to dig deep and mine out of the rock and dirt.

Where's ever-opinionated @Octo when you need him?!?

I'm like a genie. When you call, I come.
Here's my opinion…
Well… it looks like most every other person on this post agree with me, so I will spare you all the pain of hearing my badly-put-together arguments.
Just a note on other people teaching kids:
A parent, if they feel inadequate to the task of teaching their children the Bible, should get a hold of books that they can read to their children as a family devotion time, have the children read theological books or commentaries themselves. But whatever they do, they must act. A child's relationship to the Lord is probably going to be deepened more by intimate study of the word with more mature Christians (the parents) than studying the Word with a bunch of kids their own age, who are all at the same (im)maturity level. Are you going to grow more if you're hanging out with a bunch of kids your own age with one or two adults and being fed baby-food or if you're hanging out where the rest of the church is being fed meat and potatoes by the pastor?
Is all association with kids your own age bad? By no means.
For building inter-personal skills, being with kids your own age is a good thing. But if you want to learn more about God and grow in your relationship to Him, the best way to do that is NOT in the setting where everybody knows just as much as everybody else, the net effect being that nobody learns anything.
Learning more about God should be in the context of entire-family worship in the church, family devotions at home, and personal devotions with the Word using, preferably, the commentaries of those men who have rightly divided the Word (so that you can understand better).
Is that saying such learning should not be or cannot be in the context of a 'youth group'? No. But the primary and best ways are what I mentioned above, and a youth group , Sunday School, etc. should never take the place of entire-family worship in the sanctuary.

Age-segregation is foreign to the Scriptures. The fact that parents are to teach their children, and the fact that those children being taught by the parents cannot be the same age is an argument in itself against age-segregation.

Edit: Well, maybe I didn't spare you any pain. ;-)

@Mr. Alexander – " "Who is this?! I really enjoy what's being written here!" "

I know who she is….she is our local host's daughter. She's lots of fun, and I'm looking forward to seeing her in a couple weeks!

And, it's fun talking about theology with her :)

Aw, sheesh…you guys are really flattering…all the glory goes to God, of course ^u^

Aw, sheesh…you guys are really flattering, and I feel I don't deserve it…I really enjoy chatting with you guys, too! C=

all the glory goes to God, of course ^u^

Oh, wait! She's from Misery, er, I mean, Missouri, too? :)

We go to the most family-integrated church in Fairbanks. If someone wants to keep their kids in the service, the other churches in the area send them there.

We have really enjoyed all the family-integrated churches we have attended down here in the Lower 48!

I love it whenever we get to attend a more family-integrated church! Ours is better than some, but still not the best. All my dad's family is there, though. :(

My family has attended family inaugurated churches for a long time, and even when we didn’t my parents opted to keep us children with them during sermons. I am thankful that my parents take the responsibility to teach me and my siblings about God and all that matters in life. It is sad that parents would send their children off to be taught by someone else. What if the Sunday school teacher were teaching something wrong? Would the parents ever know? (edit-there are other reasons why our family has opted out of sending the children to Sunday school. I was just pointing out one.)
I could think of no value in Sunday school at all… until last week when the thought came to me that there is value in making a clear difference between a child and an adult. A child who has gone to Sunday school all his life would most likely feel more grown up and mature when his parents allowed him to stay with them during sermons. I have found that maturity often follows responsibility.

Does anyone else have thoughts on this subject?

"I have found that maturity often follows responsibility."

True, often, but my parents have also taught me that they go hand in hand. Mature people are responsible. Responsibility is a mature trait. Also, they have said that as we get more mature, we will receive more responsibility. Make any sense?

Yes. It goes both ways. My thought is that in order to encourage maturity there comes a time when you put the responsibilities in place and "push" the child to grow up more.
The honor of being considered a "grownup" and allowed to stay with the grownups would be so different from staying with the other children in a Sunday school setting, that it would demand a more mature demeanor.

However, I'm still not convinced that that is good enough reason to send children to Sunday school.

I like family-integrated churches!

Me too! :)

Hmmmm… I think that this is a very interesting question. I personally go to a family-integrated church myself, and I really like the worship format (families together).

However, I do think it is important to recognize what the Bible does and does not say.

Remember, the Bible does not explicitly say what the format for a church service should be (excepting that it must include teaching and worship). A Church is not a building or an organization: it is a group of believers. If I visit some Godly friends and engage in a Bible study and set apart time to praise my Maker, that too is a form of Church Service. I think it is erroneous to say that having a Sunday school (the definition of which seems to be very confused, by the way. It does not necessarily mean splitting up; rather, it means a teaching prior to the main service) is not an "appropriate" form of Church service. It is just as much Church as is worshipping together as a family within a building during a scheduled service.

As a result, Sunday schools are not wrong of themselves. I have attended Sunday schools both with and without my parents throughout my life (again, Sunday school does not necessarily mean separation), and I have learned much of value in both settings (completely orthodox, or my parents would not have sent me). Recently, our family made the decision to stop attending youth Sunday schools because sometimes it became less about teaching and more about other things, and I agree with their decision. Again, though, that Sunday School can be considered a miniature of a lukewarm or struggling Church. It does not imply inherent inferiority. As Josiah said, just because Godly children are together does not mean they will not be responsible or worshipful; rather, it means that the situation, if it exists, ought to be monitored in order to make sure that it is healthy and teaches the Scripture. All Christians should be like the Bereans mentioned by Paul, searching everything with Scripture and not accepting it blindly. In the end, there can be a place for Sunday schools. However, they must be used with circumspection and evaluated as one would evaluate a "Church" on the whole. I hope that made sense. :)

Also, could someone perhaps present Biblical evidence that ONLY parents can teach children? Before you raise your eyebrows and never speak to me again :) , I would like to hear your honest opinions. Of course, the parents should be the fundamental and definitely the primary teachers for all spiritual matters (This is indisputable!), but does that mean that pastors cannot influence them or tell them what the Bible says? Parents should make sure that the teaching is accurate, but when a pastor steps up and teaches about forgiveness, does the Bible say that little children should cover their ears? If the answer is no, then pastors and teachers can teach children (not as their primary role, as that biblically goes to the parents). Thus, if they can teach children through the prism of godly parents, why cannot kids learn in a different room or in a different setting. The parent can certainly know what is being taught without being present (there are instances in which this is not the case, but if one is careful, it is possible), and they can determine whether that is appropriate for their children (judging whether that be healthy or no). Of course, you should never hand your children off to those of whom you have no knowledge, but if, for instance, your best friend of 30 years offered to teach Bible stories to your 5-year old child with ADHD while you listened to a sermon on the intricacies of the Book of Romans, I think that this would not be biblically condemned. Does that make sense? If you do not agree, is this perspective at least understandable?

Again, I go to an entirely family-integrated Church, and I believe it to be a wonderful thing. However, I would caution on asserting that certain forms of worship are biblical while others are not. :)

I think it is good to have the difference between ages during Sunday School, so that the adults can talk about things that they would not otherwise be able to talk about.

We do do a Sunday School in our church, and there is a Children's Church (an overthrow from the people who were there before us, but there are only about five kids who go anymore) I really like the format, because it does give the adults some time to talk, and focus on what they are supposed to be discussing.

Yes, I can see it happening both ways, but I'm not sure which should be the preferred way. Which do you prefer?

I can see that too. Family-integrated doesn't necessarily mean that all ages are always together, just that the focus is on the family being together.

When Sunday School for the children teaches good things, things that the children need to be hearing, I think it can be a good thing. It would be hard then for the family to be all together. The children would be getting teaching, but the parents need time too.

I can see that too. Family-integrated doesn't necessarily mean that all ages are always together, just that the focus is on the family being together. When Sunday School for the children teaches good things, things that the children need to be hearing, I think it can be a good thing. It would be hard then for the family to be all together. The children would be getting teaching, but the parents need time too.

Do you go to Scott Brown's church???