Hello everyone!

Hi,

This is a wonderfully useful site. I'm a young Quaker (of the unprogrammed tradition) from the United Kingdom, and as I frequently minister and discuss faith with others, I thought it would be sensible for me to learn some more scripture by heart, especially keeping the references in mind! So yes, here I am.

I've seen some people list their favourite hymns, so I'll jump on the bandwagon:

• How Can I Keep From Singing
• O Brother Man
• Blest Are They
• Be Still (For The Presence Of The Lord)
• Be Still, My Child (Be Still)
• My Refuge and My Fortress (Ps 91)
• As We Leave This Friendly Place

Now those of you who have only heard an inkling about unprogrammed Quakers might think "Why would an unprogrammed Quaker learn hymns?"

Well, despite not having them structured into any kind of service, we do occasionally minister in hymns during meetings if we feel thus led, and personally, I just like singing them throughout my days in order to remind me of the greatness of God and my devotion to walking in his light.

Bless!

Welcome to the forums, fbayer! I have approved your first post; all future posts will be automatically approved.

Welcome to Memverse, fbayer! :)

Welcome to the forums! I have never heard any of those hymns, and don't know very much about Quakers except what I have learned at Pennsbury Manor.

It is good to meet you on here! :) May I ask how old you are? Over 20? Under 18? :)

(JSYK, some people around here like to tease! Please don't let it bother you! We are all your friends)

Hi, This is a wonderfully useful site. I'm a young Quaker (of the unprogrammed tradition) from the United Kingdom, and as I frequently minister and discuss faith with others, I thought it would be sensible for me to learn some more scripture by heart, especially keeping the references in mind! So yes, here I am. I've seen some people list their favourite hymns, so I'll jump on the bandwagon: - How Can I Keep From Singing - O Brother Man - Blest Are They - Be Still (For The Presence Of The Lord) - Be Still, My Child (Be Still) - My Refuge and My Fortress (Ps 91) - As We Leave This Friendly Place Now those of you who have only heard an inkling about unprogrammed Quakers might think "Why would an unprogrammed Quaker learn hymns?" Well, despite not having them structured into any kind of service, we do occasionally minister in hymns during meetings if we feel thus led, and personally, I just like singing them throughout my days in order to remind me of the greatness of God and my devotion to walking in his light. Bless!

A Brit?!

…

!http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130131203919/deadliestfiction/images/0/0f/Benjamin_Martin.jpg!

(me) ^

and a quaker?

Gotta say, huge fan of your oatmeal. Way to go!

And at last we come to the last mystery, (Behold, Watson, I have discovered something!) Unprogrammed? Does this signify an android disguising itself as one of us? remembers The Terminator

Just be nice, Noah! Please. :)

@fbayer - That was actually a very nice welcome (believe it or not)… from Noah. I have seen worse.

Just be nice, Noah! Please. :)

What, Cousin? (@theenglishforcesamongus, I do use proper names for my relations)

I am treating our guest with civility!

brings out the tea

(@theenglishforcesamongus) would you care to partake of some tea?

"…I have seen worse"

Pray tell, elaborate on what the deuce you meant by that!

Actually acussing someone of blasphemy right of the bad (for playing the guitar) is not ver nice…cousin. :P lol!

;)

Actually acussing someone of blasphemy right of the bad (for playing the guitar) is not ver nice...cousin. :P lol! ;)

Tis not not common hospitality to speak of such base things in the presence of company, but you know my views on guitars, and what I listen to. However, I believe we cause our guest to vex his/herself about matters that belong not to him/her.

I actually prefer coffee to tea, because I grew up in Germany. Long story xD

Anyway, to answer the question about what "unprogrammed" means: Based on the priesthood of all believers, we have no paid ministers. This means we worship in silence on Sundays, and any member of the Meeting (=congregation) who feels led by the Holy Spirit to give spoken (or, as the case may be, sung) ministry can do so out of the silence.

In contrast, semi-programmed Quakers have a little bit of this silence, then a very short sermon or reading, and then more silence. Fully programmed Quakers have a rather lengthy service with scripture readings, sermons and hymns, followed by about half an hour of the aforementioned silence.

Interesting! Are you trying to find a pastor? Have you always been a Quaker?

My family attends a Baptist Church… we have a pastor, and I guess it's a rather normal Amarican worship service. My dad has a vision for a church were we would met in homes and (rather then having a pastor) the father's of the families bring what God has been teaching them through the week and worship with sharing, testemonies, and singing. But we have never found that kind of thing. :/

I'm not trying to find a pastor, no, I'm quite happy with my un-pastored congregation. We have people who are appointed as elders and overseers, who take upon themselves the duties of spiritual nurture and looking out for the community that would normally be held by a pastor. So we're not missing out on any pastoral care, in the most literal sense of the term.

I myself have taken to dealing with premises matters and community outreach. I've given a talk at my college about Quakerism, organised a new front sign for the meeting house, and have been putting into place plans for a generous re-paint and refurbishment of the interior. So, all of us in the meeting who can spare the time to help out, do.

I came to Quakerism last year. I had lost God for many years because I was disillusioned from my grandmother's Catholicism, with all its emphasis on pomp and empty ritual, but then I found Him again through my experience with Quakers.

Anyway, Quaker worship might be in the vein of what your father is looking for. Historically many meetings which couldn't or didn't want to afford the upkeep of a dedicated meeting house met in members' homes. However, with Quakers, it wouldn't be only family fathers sharing ministry with the congregation. Quakers believe that we are all one in Christ Jesus, that men and women and children are all equally capable of receiving the Holy Spirit, and therefore are all equally capable of giving spoken ministry.

If you wouldn't mind sharing your testamony in detail, I would very much like to hear it! Do you know much about other "denominations"/Christian groupings? Maybe you only know as much about us as I know about Quakers…? :/

I'd like to ask about your music/singing. You mentioned that you sing scriptures… is that scriptures that are sung by the congregation (Meeting), or one person? And are they written songs (like in a hymnal)?
Do you listen to music throughout the week at all?

Hi fbayer. Nice to meet you xD

In Germany where I grew up, there are only really two large denominations: Roman Catholicism and Lutheranism. My grandmother, who was like a surrogate parent to me because my father left my mother after she found out she was pregnant, was a devout Roman Catholic. She actually thought the modern Roman Catholic church had gotten in some respects too progressive. I once went to a High Mass in a Cathedral that was entirely in Latin. I can still remember some of the prayers in Latin off by heart. I saw all of the splendour, the gold-plated altar and the icons and the elaborate costumes.

At the same time, I was going to a Lutheran kindergarten, where the importance of simplicity, poverty, charity were explained to me. So I got very confused. I decided to read some of the Bible myself and I concluded that neither Church had really gotten it right. Then I thought that there just was no Church that had gotten it right. But I still loved Christian ethics: Love thy neighbour, love thine enemy, do unto others as thou wouldst have them do unto you. So I went looking for other paths which shared that message, which briefly bought me to Buddhism, but I soon found that Buddhism suffered from the same pomp and ceremony the Catholic Church did.

That led me to the conclusion that all religions seemed to just be there to look pretty and have fancy ceremonies, and I became very disenchanted with any sort of faith, so I started calling myself agnostic. This is what my mother had done long ago, and still is doing (I am hopeful she will find faith again, but she needs to do this on her own; she's recently taken some interest in Quaker literature and I hope she will also find back to God on the Quaker path). Then when I moved to Great Britain, I remembered that a teacher of mine had once mentioned Quakers to me, and I was intrigued.

So I decided to go to Meeting for Worship. And it was the most transforming experience I ever had. I sat in the silence and opened my heart to the Holy Spirit, and sure enough the Spirit came over me. I felt the presence of the Lord, I knew the Lord was there and that He loved me, it was possibly the most powerful thing I ever felt. I could almost have fallen to my knees and wept.

So that is my testimony. In response to your other questions:

I have friends from many denominations. One friend of mine is studying to become a Greek Orthodox theologian, actually. Another friend of mine is about to begin seminary in preparation for becoming an Anglican vicar. Other than that I have Catholic, Lutheran, Baptist, Methodist, Presbyterian and Calvinist friends. So I do have a decent understanding of what other denominations believe and do. I also work with Churches Together in my town, which is an organisation that allows all the different local churches to work together in ministry - for example, they run the local foodbank for the needy.

When we sing during Meeting for Worship, it is like spoken ministry. It is completely spontaneous, we feel led by the Spirit to rise and sing, and we do. That means that sometimes only one person will rise and sing to the meeting, while at other times one person will rise and start singing, and then the whole meeting joins in. One of our members is a former Catholic nun, so she sings beautifully and often ministers in song rather than speech, and most of those times we will simply listen.

One time I remember us all singing together was in the meeting immediately after our Clerk passed on. One member rose and began singing the Taizé chant "Jesus, remember me, when you come into your Kingdom", and the whole Meeting suddenly joined in. (Clerks take care of the business side of the meeting - they chair our business meetings, and are the main point of contact for other organisations, businesses and such, as well as corresponding with the Area Meeting - which is a bit like a diocese - and with Britain Yearly Meeting - which is the organisation of all Quakers in Britain.)

As for hymnals, Quakers in Britain do not have their own hymnal. My meeting's library has a copy of the Methodist Hymnal, and Hastings Meeting (the next town over) has a copy of Friends General Conference (FGC) Hymnal. FGC is an American Quaker organisation based in Philadelphia. "Friend" (with a capital F) is the formal term for Quakers. We're formally called the Religious Society of Friends. "Quaker" was originally an insult, but nowadays we use the term ourselves because it is less confusing. That's why many Quaker organisations will have "Friends" in them, like the "Friends Ambulance Service", the "Friends World Committee for Consultation", or the aforementioned FGC.

Did you know, by the way, that the whole state of Pennsylvania was originally a Quaker colony? It was founded by William Penn (hence the name), who was a prominent Quaker and wanted to give Quakers a place where they could live without being persecuted by the Church of England.

I am very glad you came back to the Lord! God has really worked in your life! :)

Probably the thing that bothers me the most about other religions is the works based salvation that many promote. There is only one way of salvation, through the Lord Jesus Christ, all of our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.
Titus 3:5 "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" But, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9
And so, Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God"
Do you believe that as a Quaker?

Dose it take a lot of boldness to just stand up and sing something you'd never sung before? How can a bunch of people sing the same thing if it is not written out for them?

My mother grew up in Pennsylvania! I have been to Penn's house there… that is how I learned all I know about Quakers. :) So when you said you were a Quaker the first things I thought of were: A very charismatic group of people who were all ways looked down on, and (in my opinion) very unjustly persecuted for their beliefs. A very peace loving and honest group.
I'm sure we aren't going to agree on everything as far as Theological matters go… but I'm just as sure that there are many things we agree on and can learn from each other's beliefs! :)

I, like many British Quakers, am a universalist. I believe that all are saved - even the wicked and the faithless - because the Lord is all-merciful and thus all receive the grace of the Lord, whether they want to or not. We are given life as a chance to be the best we can be, by being faithful and good. If we fail to take on that task, then our own remorse is the punishment, but the Lord forgives us.

So yes, you're right that we will probably have quite a few theological disparities. But Quakers are called to "Think it possible that [we] may be mistaken" (that's in Advices & Queries, a little booklet of 42 short questions and pieces of advice on living moral, faithful lives, issued by the Yearly Meeting), so I certainly won't mind them.

As for the boldness, the answer is yes: It does take some boldness, as with ordinary spoken ministry. But that courage is given by the Lord. It's really an incredible feeling to be called to rise and minister in Meeting for Worship, you feel powerless to do anything but rise and speak/sing. I get slightly jittery when performing or giving presentations, ordinarily, but at the annual gathering of British Quakers at the beginning of August, I rose, was handed a microphone, and ministered to hundreds of people without so much as a single stutter.

Concerning how you can sing something you've never sung: Generally, that only happens with repetitive chants. For example, "Jesus, remember me, when you come into your kingdom" is literally just those words repeated several times to a varying melody, and then you start over. So after you go through it four times the melody repeats, and then others who hadn't heard it before can join in. But of course sometimes we also have sung things before, and then we can join in. Otherwise, if you haven't heard something before and don't think you can pick it up from listening (or it isn't going to be repeated), then you just don't join in.

That gave me a shock! :) I honestly have never heard salvation exsplained like that! So why did Jesus have to die? If everyone is saved why does the Bible say we have to believe in our hearts and confess with our mouths in order to be saved? If you know that your mother will go to heaven no matter what she believes what is the point of coming to the faith?
Yes, as a human being (and a sinner) I believe that I'm probubly very wrong on many subjects… but the Bible is never wrong. ;)

I have sung on stage a few times and felt that same way… Wow! That's really neat that you were able to minister to so many.

That kind of singing is something I would like to see/hear sometime. It sounds really interesting!

Hi fbayer, I really have not been familiar with Quaker beliefs previous to this, I am learning alot from what you have been sharing. It looks like a great discussion going on here, I hope I won't be interfering in a negative way to ask some questions.

Like I said, I don't know much about Quakers, can you tell me what their scripture book is called? You referenced a booklet by the Yearly Meeting, but I assume that it is like a catechism, not infallible, and not your primary doctrinal source.

One last thing, what do you think about praying for the sick? Like miraclous healings? Do Quakers ever speak in tongues?

Quakers reject the doctrine of biblical infallibility. We believe that the Bible is inspired, but not infallible; that the influence of the fallible human minds of those who wrote it down, while inspired by God, introduced errors into it, and because we don't believe that something as limited as human language could ever express the mystery of God nor his will accurately. This is summarised by three famous Quaker quotes:

"And the end of words is to bring men to the knowledge of things beyond what words can utter. So, learn of the Lord to make a right use of the Scriptures: which is by esteeming them in their right place, and prizing that above them which is above them." - Isaac Penington

"Nevertheless, because the scriptures are only a declaration of the source, and not the source itself, they are not to be considered the principal foundation of all truth and knowledge. They are not even to be considered as the adequate primary rule of all faith and practice. Yet, because they give a true and faithful testimony of the source itself, they are and may be regarded as a secondary rule that is subordinate to the Spirit, from which they obtain all their excellence and certainty." - Robert Barclay

"You will say, Christ saith this, and the apostles say this: but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of Light and hast thou walked in the Light, and what thou speakest, is it inwardly from God?" - George Fox

So, in fewer words, we regard direct spiritual inspiration which we receive, i.e. direct leadings by the Holy Spirit which we experience, as superior to scripture.

If this was the case I don't think I would believe anything the Bible says, because I just wouldn't know if it was true. What about these men… Isn't it possible that they are in error? Would you believe their words over God's?
If God is perfect and really loves us I think His words to us would be as well.
So do you believe that Jesus was God?

…the Bible has errors?

Stick to the oatmeal, bro.

Sam……. be nice, please.

That was me being nice. :P

...the Bible has _errors_? Stick to the oatmeal, bro.

XDDDDDD

Yes, it's possible that our leadings are in error too. Of course we're not infallible either. We simply choose to place the continuing revelation of God's will through the Holy Spirit above its revelation through scripture.

Not all Quakers believe that Jesus is God. Some Quakers certainly take the traditional trinitarian stance that God has three distinct persons of one nature, one of which is God the Son (Christ Jesus). Others are unitarian and espouse the view that while God worked through Jesus, Jesus was a man, not God himself.

If I was to quote the Bible to you would you take it for what it says, or would you say it was a mistake? (I'm just wondering… :)) How do you know what is truth in the Bible?

The Bible says:
(2 Timothy 3:16-17) "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

(Revelation 22:19) "And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

(Revelation 22:6) "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true : and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

So do you think that is that a bunch lies?

So what position do you hold about Jesus being the Son of God? Also, if all are saved without repentance why dose the Bible talk about people going to hell?

Um…big sister…

He said the Bible was inspired. But that the mind of men could warp it.

He never said anything should be added or taken…only that what was there is there, and can be taken however they want. Which is pretty convenient, if you ask me.

Again, he said that sinful men could warp the words of God, and that revelation through the Holy Spirit was the only "true" way of learning from God.

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. I agree with that. I'll think about it a little more. :)

Okay, thanks for pointing that out. I agree with that. I'll think about it a little more. :)

Wait, what? You agree with what he said? That the Bible as it was inspired, and written down by God's chosen men, has errors because of the men who wrote it?

Not that part!
I agree that man can take the Bible and read it in such a way that it is warped. I still believe that the Bible is God's perfect word to us and we can believe that every word of it is true and faithful! :)

Okay…. I think I'm confused. goes to read back over the conversation and study the Bible

Not that part! I agree that man can take the Bible and read it in such a way that it is warped. I still believe that the Bible is God's perfect word to us and we can believe that every word of it is true and faithful! :)

Okay, yeah, I agree with ya there. :)

...the Bible has _errors_? Stick to the oatmeal, bro.

I don't want to eat oatmeal by a heretic! And a brit!

!http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130131203919/deadliestfiction/images/0/0f/Benjamin_Martin.jpg!

Colossians 4:6 - Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.