can we be forced to sin

could god while remaining true to himself, put us/let us get into a position where we have no choice but to sin? In other words, is it possible to be in a position where every choice you have is a sin
this question stemmed from a debate I had recently, and I was wondering what you all thought about it.

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That is a very good question. :) I don't think that God has/dose put us in such positions with out a way of escape from sinning.

"No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it." - 1 Corinthians 10:13

"For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin." - Hebrews 4:15

"Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death." - James 1:13

thanks Alex.

Assuming that we can not be in a position where we have to sin, are there times when sin becomes right? for example. Assume you are kidnapped, and brought to an idol. your captors tell you that if you do not bow down and worship the idol (sort of like shadrach meshach and abednego) they will go and kill someone else. If you do not bow down, you will be essentially murdering someone. While if you do bow down, you will be bowing down to an idol. this is not a great example, but for the sake of young readers, I did not want to make it too bad. Anyway, there can be situations, where any option is sin. In such a case, what can you do that is not sin? would something that was previously sin, become not sin?

If that were the situation it would not be you murdering the other person. The blood would be on the hands of the killers. However, I see your point.

When these situations come up God has promised that He will give us the words to speak and show us how to act.

“for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.” – Luke 21:15
“…do not worry about how or what you should answer, or what you should say. For the Holy Spirit will teach you in the very hour what you ought to say.” –Luke 12:11-12

I believe it is each person’s responsibility to keep from sinning in as much as he/she knows how.

“Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.” James 1:12

What is unknown can be left to God (with much prayer).

“Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.” –Romans 12:12

And if we are trusting God with everything we know that He will work everything out for good according to His purpose. (Romans 8:28)

Your question: "Would something that was previously sin, become not sin?" I will have to think about more. I'm not sure I understand.

Perhaps an example would be Rahab lying to the magistrates about the whereabouts of the Hebrew spies. We usually are not supposed to lie to anyone, but does her situation change that?

Hope that helps!

Assuming that we can not be in a position where we have to sin, are there times when sin becomes right? for example. Assume you are kidnapped, and brought to an idol. your captors tell you that if you do not bow down and worship the idol (sort of like shadrach meshach and abednego) they will go and kill someone else. If you do not bow down, you will be essentially murdering someone. While if you do bow down, you will be bowing down to an idol. this is not a great example, but for the sake of young readers, I did not want to make it too bad. Anyway, there can be situations, where any option is sin. In such a case, what can you do that is not sin? would something that was previously sin, become not sin?

1. You would not be killing this other person. you are not responsible for the actions of ruthless kidnapers.
2. Anyway Lets say you want to "save" this other person. Man looks at the outward appearance, but God looks at the heart.(1 Samuel 16:7) right? (Lets assume that your heart is right and you aren't bowing down on the inside.) Are you going to be a stumbling block? It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble. (Luke 17:2)
   If it were me…. lets hope the other person wants to be a martyr. ^but it is hypothetical.^

@aidan – Thank you for that example. That was very helpful to me. :)

@Ben - The human mind can come up with many situations that seem as though there is no other way out of it but to sin. But if you take a step back and look at the fact that God dose not change His mind (and sin always is sin) the question is, how strong is your faith in God?
All things work together for good. So God could take sin (such as Rehab or Abrahams’ lies) to bring about His will, but that doesn't make it right.
Rehab was a gentile who didn't know God’s law, but we know better.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" – Romans 6:1

Abraham lied about his wife. It was a lack of faith on his part and God dealt with that in his life (not only that, but all those nations that he lied to are now the enemies of Israel). Although sometimes it seems as though there are no consequences for sin who are we (as fallible humans) to decided how God judges sin.

would you hold to the view that God might put us in a position where He has to supernaturally intervene in order for us to not sin? or do you think that God would supernaturally intervene in order that you would never get into a situation like that?

you can think of it as if the world is a computer program that God made at the beginning of time. we have choices, but everything follows the programming. God has the power to hack into the system, and change the code. this is supernatural intervention. Unless God intervenes, we can get into a situation, where our only option is to sin (I can think of plenty). so that would mean, every time we get into such a situation, God is obliged, by his own nature, to "hack into the system" and save us. Unless he wrote something into the code to prevent such a thing from happening. which would have some fairly important implications.

I believe God can intervene supernaturally when ever He wants to. He will do what is what glorifying Him most. God tests us like He tested Abraham, and will intervene when we have faith. I don't know what God would have done if Abraham had not been willing to give up his only son… but I'm pretty sure He would not have intervened in the same way.

I don't know how God thinks (His ways are way above ours), but I believe He could do anything. Dose that answer your question at all?

you can think of it as if the world is a computer program that God made at the beginning of time. we have choices, but everything follows the programming. God has the power to hack into the system, and change the code. this is supernatural intervention. Unless God intervenes, we can get into a situation, where our only option is to sin (I can think of plenty). so that would mean, every time we get into such a situation, God is obliged, by his own nature, to "hack into the system" and save us. Unless he wrote something into the code to prevent such a thing from happening. which would have some fairly important implications.

Yes! I've thought about it that way before. Very interesting thought! :)

thanks. those are good points.

All things work together for good. So God could take sin (such as Rehab or Abrahams’ lies) to bring about His will, but that doesn't make it right. Rehab was a gentile who didn't know God’s law, but we know better.

I used to think that lying was never okay, but then I got to wondering if lies are always sin, then why did God bless the Hebrew midwives when they lied to Pharaoh?

Here is the story of it:
Exodus 1:17-20: But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive. And the king of Egypt called for the midwives, and said unto them, Why have ye done this thing, and have saved the men children alive? And the midwives said unto Pharaoh, Because the Hebrew women are not as the Egyptian women; for they are lively, and are delivered ere the midwives come in unto them. Therefore God dealt well with the midwives: and the people multiplied, and waxed very mighty.

It says "Therefore God dealt well with the midwives". If they sinned, why would they be blessed?

It doesn't say that they lied to Pharaoh, it merely records what they said. I am not convinced that they weren’t telling Pharaoh the truth. The Israelite women were more lively in giving birth and gave birth before the midwives could get there. It happens. I know…

If you have scripture that says they did lie, I'll believe it.

I agree, it is not exactly crystal clear that they lied, but I believe that they did from the verse that directly preceded my excerpt.

Exodus 1:17: But the midwives feared God, and did not as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the men children alive.

Well, since I don't think they lied I don't know that I can rightly say anything about God blessing them for lying. However, God can read the thoughts and intentions of the heart, He is the judge of right and wrong.

There is a chance that they just came to the births late on purpose. In which case they wouldn't have been lying either… but that's all just speculation.

Very true.

So what do you think that they should have done supposing that they came on time, and then had to report before Pharaoh? Should they have told him the truth?

gulp I don't know. But I think they should have. God would have worked it out anyway… after all, they feared Him.

What about Rahab, then? The Bible explicitly says that she lied to protect the spies.

All things work together for good. So God (who 'could' do anything He pleases) could take sin to bring about His will, but that doesn't make it right.
Rehab was a gentile who didn't know God’s law and yet she feared Him. But we, as Christians, know better.

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?" – Romans 6:1

Although sometimes it seems as though there are no consequences for sin who are we to decided how God judges sin.

I think we can address the root of the question with the following illustration. imagine you had some people brought before you (it could be 2, or 10, or 1000. the number doesn't matter) and were given a gun, and told to shoot one of them. you are told that if you do not shoot one, all of them will be killed. but if you do comply, the rest will be set free. we are assuming in this situation that you are being told the truth, and that there is no way to escape or be rescued, and shooting yourself would only get all of them killed. surely it is not right to let lots of people die when we can save them, and by shooting one person you are murdering someone.
obviously there is no easy choice, but unless you think that it is right to let lots of people die, the question is, is it still a sin to kill that one person? or because of the circumstances, does something that was previously wrong become right?

I think we can address the root of the question with the following illustration. imagine you had some people brought before you (it could be 2, or 10, or 1000. the number doesn't matter) and were given a gun, and told to shoot one of them. you are told that if you do not shoot one, all of them will be killed. but if you do comply, the rest will be set free. we are assuming in this situation that you are being told the truth, and that there is no way to escape or be rescued, and shooting yourself would only get all of them killed. surely it is not right to let lots of people die when we can save them, and by shooting one person you are murdering someone. obviously there is no easy choice, but unless you think that it is right to let lots of people die, the question is, is it still a sin to kill that one person? or because of the circumstances, does something that was previously wrong become right?

1. that is a lot of assumptions. but I'll go with them any way.
2. ^Lots? you said the number of people didn't matter….^
3. Is it sinful to kill that one person? I say yes. The only reason you have to kill that one person is because you were told to. They are still an Innocent victim. If you give in you'll be giving the enemy what they want. I say kill your captures. But…
4. You said it is impossible to escape. why not die trying? your pals would have died anyway, and you'll go down with honor.

I think that would be wrong, because it would still be murder, even if it brought about good by saving the other people. I view lying as differently, as that would not necessarily harm someone, and there is biblical precedent for it (as I read it). It might only keep them from doing evil. On the other hand, you would have every right, and even a duty, to attempt to stop or perhaps kill the ones who would be killing the innocent people.

I think we can address the root of the question with the following illustration. imagine you had some people brought before you (it could be 2, or 10, or 1000. the number doesn't matter) and were given a gun, and told to shoot one of them. you are told that if you do not shoot one, all of them will be killed. but if you do comply, the rest will be set free. we are assuming in this situation that you are being told the truth, and that there is no way to escape or be rescued, and shooting yourself would only get all of them killed. surely it is not right to let lots of people die when we can save them, and by shooting one person you are murdering someone. obviously there is no easy choice, but unless you think that it is right to let lots of people die, the question is, is it still a sin to kill that one person? or because of the circumstances, does something that was previously wrong become right?

1. that is a lot of assumptions. but I'll go with them any way. 2. ^Lots? you said the number of people didn't matter....^ 3. Is it sinful to kill that one person? I say yes. The only reason you have to kill that one person is because you were told to. They are still an Innocent victim. If you give in you'll be giving the enemy what they want. I say kill your captures. But... 4. You said it is impossible to escape. why not die trying? your pals would have died anyway, and you'll go down with honor.

Okay I will revise the situation if I must.

Instead of being given a gun, you are given the button that must be pressed to kill someone in an electric chair. you are meanwhile tied to a chair, and can't possibly get away. (unless you get angry and turn green……..) anyway. the bad guys will kill one person every ten seconds untill you press the button. and there are now 138 people that they will kill.

I would have to leave the button unpressed. I could not murder an innocent person, no matter what good outcome there would be. I would try my very best to stop or persuade them not to kill all those people, but I could not kill one innocent person to save others, no matter how big the number.

but I could not kill one innocent person to save others, no matter how big the number.

So, pretty much every major military action (each of which has killed at least one civilian) would be wrong and uncalled for according to your line of reasoning, correct? Going in, commanders know that innocent people will die as a result of their mission (think Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or D-Day), yet they order it (in essence, putting the blood on their own hands and taking responsibility as all good commanders should) to protect millions of others at home. Is that really a sin?

It may be helpful to make a distinction between killing an 'innocent' person by your own initiative, or on the order of your government (such as in a war). God has granted governmental powers the authority to punish (and kill) people in ways that are not given to individuals, such as declaring war, in which civilians are often (unintentionally) killed.

but I could not kill one innocent person to save others, no matter how big the number.

So, pretty much every major military action (each of which has killed at least one civilian) would be wrong and uncalled for according to your line of reasoning, correct? Going in, commanders know that innocent people will die as a result of their mission (think Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or D-Day), yet they order it (in essence, putting the blood on their own hands and taking responsibility as all good commanders should) to protect millions of others at home. Is that really a sin?

So now we'er talking about war. there is a difference between deliberately killing an innocent person, and permitting an inevitable accident.
Hiroshima and Nagasaki. we needed to brake the Nation's psycho. not just the leaders. It was the whole nation (the ones that were to young would have been trained to be just as bad). As far as I'm concerned there were no Innocent people on either of those Islands.

Okay I will revise the situation if I must.

Instead of being given a gun, you are given the button that must be pressed to kill someone in an electric chair. you are meanwhile tied to a chair, and can't possibly get away. (unless you get angry and turn green……..) anyway. the bad guys will kill one person every ten seconds untill you press the button. and there are now 138 people that they will kill.</blockquote>

People die. its part of life (or the end of it). if it can be prevented, fine. if not, get used to it. If a ruthless dictator wants to kill people. I guess he gets to. I'm not in control of the situation. The best thing I could do (with a good conscience) would be to pray. There is nothing wrong with God intervening supernaturally.

but I could not kill one innocent person to save others, no matter how big the number.

So, pretty much every major military action (each of which has killed at least one civilian) would be wrong and uncalled for according to your line of reasoning, correct? Going in, commanders know that innocent people will die as a result of their mission (think Hiroshima, Nagasaki, or D-Day), yet they order it (in essence, putting the blood on their own hands and taking responsibility as all good commanders should) to protect millions of others at home. Is that really a sin?

No, because military actions such as D-Day do not intend to harm civilians, even if it happens anyhow. So I do not believe that military actions are bad just because innocent people may be harmed in it. It cannot be helped, even with as much as you may try. In the other example it was your choice to kill one person yourself, or not kill him. That would be murder because it is purposeful and intentional, not accidental.

"…But I say unto you, whoever hates his brother, is a murderer of the heart."
"For man looks at the outward appearances, but the LORD looks at the heart."
Do either of these contribute to the discussion?

</blockquote>
Okay I will revise the situation if I must.

Instead of being given a gun, you are given the button that must be pressed to kill someone in an electric chair. you are meanwhile tied to a chair, and can't possibly get away. (unless you get angry and turn green……..) anyway. the bad guys will kill one person every ten seconds untill you press the button. and there are now 138 people that they will kill.</blockquote>

In such a situation, you must always do what is right God IS faithful, as was mentioned in the verses earlier.
If you choose to kill one to save many, in this situation, the evil doers will not hesitate to break their word and then kill the rest.

you can think of it as if the world is a computer program that God made at the beginning of time. we have choices, but everything follows the programming. God has the power to hack into the system, and change the code. this is supernatural intervention. Unless God intervenes, we can get into a situation, where our only option is to sin (I can think of plenty). so that would mean, every time we get into such a situation, God is obliged, by his own nature, to "hack into the system" and save us. Unless he wrote something into the code to prevent such a thing from happening. which would have some fairly important implications.

I think that this would be the wrong way of looking at things, Christ did not wind up the universe and set it spinning, and then intervene; the very atoms are held together by his active power.
Paul writes of the active sustaining power of the creator in Hebrews, and Colossians:

Hebrews 1:3 (ESV) He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

Colossians1:16-17 (ESV) 16For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

that's true, but at the same time, God set laws to govern the natural world. And unless he intervenes supernaturally, everything will keep going according to those rules.

Yet if God left the earth to it's own devices, the natural laws would fall apart as well. God holds them together. Right?

that's true, but at the same time. while God is holding them together, he also lets them run by themselves. I can't fully understand how God controls everything, yet still lets them run according to laws. but think of mathematics and science for example. The reason we can find out so much about science and mathematics, is that they always (almost always that is) operate according to certain laws. consider also, chance. If you flip a coin one million times (not that I suggest that) about half will be heads, while the other half will be tails. According to god's laws, that is how it works. but in the case of jonah, when they cast lots, god intervened and made the lot fall on Jonah, even though normally there would have been an equal chance for it to fall on anyone. This explanation is probably not very clear, but at least it's something.

I think that if we are actually forced to sin, we are not responsible–the person who forced us is. I do not think God will put us in situations that put us into a dilemma that forces us to sin (although we can foolishly get ourselves into them, eg. Jeptha).