Contemporary vs. Traditional Music

What are your views about music (not necessarily in the church, just in general)?

Are drums and other electric instruments appropriate in Christian songs? Can we even call the songs Christian if they have a beat?

If there can be a beat, how far can we go? Is Christian rock okay? How about rap or hip-hop? Heavy metal? Screamo?

Discuss both your preferences and what you believe is the command of Scripture.

My preference for church worship is to sing mostly psalms with some hymns and to sing a capella (aka, with no instruments–just voices.) I don't believe it's a regulation, though I believe that singing mostly psalms is strongly suggested by Scripture. (See Ephesians 5:19; the words in our Bible of 'hymns and spiritual songs' are really different types of songs in the psalter.)

I don't know much about music and biology. My younger sister could tell you more about nuerons and etc. However, I do know that my body is the temple of God and that medical research has proven that some beats are not healthy for the body. I think that musical instruments are great if used appropriately. Second, worshipping with a fear of God must be the number one priority. I love some of the words to contemporary songs such as As the Deer, and How Great the Father's Love for us. But at the same time am deeply impressed by such people as Fanny J. Crosby and Isaac Watts.

I believe that if the words glorify God, than the tune or style is not of huge consequence. On the other hand, if the music style has been designed to stir up wrong feelings, as some music is, it is dead-wrong.

I believe the rock/rap "music" should not be used in churches; that's just my personal opinion.

I agree. I think the traditional hymns and psalms are the best music for worship in church, but some of the contemporary music is good, too. Although there is some really bad "Christian" music as far as theology goes.

Okay, the command of Scripture is to sing "…psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs WITH THANKFULNESS IN YOUR HEARTS TO GOD…" Collossians 3:16b (emphasis added). I think that (as Octsris said) if the words glorify God, sing it all you want (please don't take that to mean I think words don't matter; they do). But I think that the emphasis should be on our attitude in singing Don't sing because you want others to notice or be impressed (something I struggle with), but instead sing for God. I'm not saying don't sing with other people, but be careful with your heart when you sing. Sing because you are thankful.

Some forms of modern music focus on the people, not the music. How many people are rock stars? Not many. How many people sing in your congregation at church? Most everybody. What do you see when you attend a concert? The very talented people on stage. What do you see singing in church? Your brethren around you.
See my point?
Now, I am not saying that Christian concerts are bad, I'm just saying be careful. What do you go to see/hear? A talented musician/vocalist or God-glorifying music?

I really think you have to break this topic down into two divisions:

What's appropriate during the formal worship services of the assembled body of Christ on His prescribed day?

AND

What's appropriate for the genuine believer outside of the formal worship of the saints?

I am a proponent of the Normative Principle of Worship, in which I believe that what is to occur in the formal worship services on the Lord's Day should completely and only include what is established in Scripture. As it pertains to music, I agree that Psalms, Hymns, and Spiritual Songs should make up the bulk of the music that occurs. (Now, these, of course, are up to interpretation.) I don't think you go wrong at all when you stick exclusively with the Psalms; however, I don't necessarily disagree with hymns that are rich in theological doctrines and Scriptural truths. I also think that the Psalms are filled with allusions to musical instruments; thus, while a capella is definitely not wrong in any capacity, I believe instruments are permissible. (I especially love the full choir and orchestra at John MacArthur's church.)

As for outside the formal services, (I can't believe I'm saying this, but) I actually agree with @OCTSRIS! (Close down MemVerse! The End of All Things has come!) Unless the music is sensual and provocative, causing one to stumble into licentiousness and lust of the flesh/eyes, I believe it's the lyrics that mostly sanctify the music, not the music itself (and, yes, I've heard all the arguments, ad nauseum, about the demonic drumbeats in African jungles and medical research about the effects of some drumbeats on our being); but this subject falls into the field of one's preferences and conscience (Romans 14-15). Thus, I do not talk much of the Christian music styles to which I gleefully listen (nor cite them on blogs) out of respect for those whose preferences may be quite different and it may cause someone to stumble in an area that their conscience forbids.

The danger for those whose conscience does not forbid such styles is that they lean towards licentiousness (look it up!), wanting so badly to proclaim their freedom to listen to such things with a clear conscience, even on blogs like this. But beware! Imagine Paul, instead of stating that he would give up eating meat if he could make sure his brother did not stumble at his doing, chose to flaunt his freedom before all indiscriminately, eating meat served to idols all day and all night in front of those whose consciences are severely afflicted by such an act.

It would be sin.

I believe it's the same sin if we flaunt the freedom of our musical preferences before those whose consciences are pricked by certain musical styles.

Let's all make sure we are highly sensitive to our brothers and sisters in Christ with our musical tastes, movie/TV viewing, alcohol abstinence or consumption, dancing preferences, etc. I think it's okay to share our views, but be careful not to flaunt your freedoms or condemn them in others.

Now, as for secular music, I'd love to hear others' opinions as to whether we as believers should ever listen to it. What say ye?

Well, I enjoy listening to some rock and rap-nearly all Christian-but in our church, we rarely go beyond keyboard/piano music and guitar accompanying blatantly Christian worship music.

Here is a great link on this topic - http://staddonfamily.com/2009/09/15/music-standards-part-3/.

An excellent dichotomy, Sir Wretched. I agree in entirety.
As to listening to secular music, it depends what type of secular music.
I think your safest bet is classical, baroque, etc. It can't really be non-Christian, because there are no words (although Wagner [I believe] was mixed up with the accult, and some of his music [even though it is only instruments] reflects that). Just my personal opinion. There are a bunch of songs out there that we all know that aren't expressly Christian, and I don't feel it's wrong to listen to them. As Octsris said, it depends on the lyrics and style.

The Sound of Music soundtrack is a perfect example of secular music that seems to be acceptable, even to a lot of conservative Christian homeschool families, and does not contain inappropriate messages or lyrics (well, except, I think it's called, "Something Good," where it's theology is pretty sketchy. Oh! and "Going on 17," which tends to have an emphasis on Dating vs. Courting).

But for the most part, these songs are timeless classics.

Anyone have other examples of appropriate secular music (with lyrics)?

How 'bout Disney's "Beauty and the Beast"? or some songs from "Mary Poppins"?

My family actually has some CDs with all kinds of Christian music from Rock to Disco to pop to hip-hop. The name of the band is Apologetix, and they create parodies of songs from all the types of songs I mentioned. They are really good and they are all Christian.

I listen to mostly Christian music artists:

Some of the ones I have and listen to are:
Matt Redman
Joel Weldon
Petra
DC Talk
Unspoken
Justified
HIllsong United
Chris Tomlin

At Calvary Chapel for worship we sing some that were by Hillsong United, Matt Redman, and Chris Tomlin.

Wow. I have to say that surprises me. ;)

I wouldn't have thought you were the DC Talk type. :P

Or Hillsong United either. :D

My younger sister loves Petra, and Matt Redman, Christ Tomlin, and dc Talk are some favorites in our house (mostly me, my dad, and some of my siblings actually listen to dc Talk and enjoy it to a degree). I also enjoy some Royal Tailor, Newsboys, Brandon Heath, and various other artists. What I listen to really depends on my mood-but secular music in our house rarely goes beyond classical music, Two Steps From Hell (which some people on here may object to, and I apologize if it is offensive), and Epic Score.

COS, I very much appreciate you addressing this subject. I do not profess to be an expert on the subject, but I will try to tell you some of what I have been taught as well as some of my contentious beliefs.

First, music, regardless of the words, should be in harmony with God's laws of uniformity. Music that is very irregular in beat and clashing in harmony sounds discordant. God "is not the author of confusion," so his music should be in accordance with his regularity.

Second, music is dangerous if it is used to stir up passions in us. The emotionally charged atmosphere of rock concerts, whether Christian or secular, can easily be channeled into ungodly thoughts and actions. For me, some passionate rhythms can cause me to have strong sensual desires, which are very wrong. Granted, some great hymns of the faith such as "We're Marching to Zion" certainly stir something inside a person, but the motivation from the emotional stimulus must be evaluated.

Finally, music must bring honor to God ALONE. It is fine to applaud a performer after a performance, but music should lead us to remember the Author of music. Music that stirs in us a sense of individualism and an I-am-the-one-causing-this-reaction spirit should be avoided, since our goal in music should be to glorify the Lord. After all, we are here on earth to bring him glory. Therefore, everything we do, including our performances, should be done to His glory.

As for what beats are wrong, I think it partially depends on your convictions. Naturally, I believe there are forms of music that are wrong; however, some decisions relating to music must be made based on your personal convictions. I attend a church where only a capella music is permitted. Personally, I have no problem with instrumental music, though some people may think otherwise.

Regardless of the style of music we listen to, we should remember the words of I Corinthians 10:31 "Whether therefore ye eat or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God." Also, let us keep Galatians 5:13 in mind. "For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another." Regardless of the style of music we permit, we must not offend a weaker brother, or cause ourselves to stumble.

To God be the glory!

Amen.

You've captured the heart of the argument well, Mr. Youngman. It's about our convictions in accordance with the commandments and principles of Scripture, as well as our mandated sensitivity to those around us in order that they may not stumble because of our liberties.

Well said.

That was awesome. I agree with you 100%!

Actually, I received a lot of the ideas from Bill Gothard. He has much to say on the subject of contemporary music. I would recommend his book " How to Conquer Habits and Addictions" for more information on the subject. Also, I found the teaching of Dan Lucarini, who was a former worship leader, very helpful. He wrote a book titled "Why I left the Christian Contemporary Movement." Although I have never read the book, I have heard a message by him, and learned much about Biblical worship. Finally, may God receive the glory for anything I say. I am simply a channel for Him to use in whatever way He chooses.

Yes, I've heard of that book, too, but haven't gotten ahold of it to read it.

Indeed! Glory to God!

Guess what? We too, as humans, by nature, bring praise to Satan. We were born under the power of Satan and sin. We are called children of the devil by Jesus in John 8:44. And yet, by God's grace, we are redeemed and are set apart for God's purposes!

Why then cannot music that was originally used for evil be turned around to be used for God's glory? Pianos were originally used for secular music, and the church believed it was wrong to add instruments to worship. But then we started using pianos for music to accompany our hymns.

Does a song automatically become worship to Satan if it has a beat? What if I took "Amazing Grace" and added just a slight beat to it? No? Okay, what if I added some harder drums and maybe an electric guitar? When does it become wrong?

Would you call these lyrics "witch language"?

"Who is God? God is the universe’s Creator And Sustainer plus the only Savior, there is no one greater He triune, holy, omnipotent, omniscient, absolute Loving, sovereign and righteous are a few of His attributes How do we know this? Well, we know this from the Bible Where God has revealed Himself- anything else is just an idol What’s the Bible about? Man’s complete ruin in sin And what God has done in Christ to bring us to Him again What is sin? Sin is the breaking of God’s law Plus our condition, which means from birth we all got flaws What’s the result? The result is by nature we’re God’s enemies And must pay the penalty unless God provides the remedy What the remedy? The remedy is the cross of Christ Where He suffered all the strikes for the lawless type I’ve been rescued by the Lamb, I’m convinced that He’s risen And blessed is the man whose sins are forgiven! Chorus Just fall back, and with the eyes of faith Behold the beauty of surprising grace Because the Lamb has died, third day He had to rise He’s magnified- God’s wrath is satisfied Just fall back- there’s an atonement now The cross of Christ is holy ground Because the Lamb has died, third day He had to rise He’s magnified- God’s wrath is satisfied Verse 2 Regeneration- the Holy Spirit’s true work in His love To the elect, who receive new birth from above Expiation- expiation means God’s removed my filthiness The old testament type was the goat into the wilderness Redemption- we’ve been freed from slavery to sin And His very own blood is the price He paid, my friend Propitiation- Propitiation means since the Lamb has died His work is finished- God’s wrath is satisfied Adoption- adoption means God is now my Father I got the hottest Poppa and by the Spirit holler Abba Reconciliation means there’s no more enmity God is now a friend to me, we’re no longer enemies Justification- God declares us righteous Sanctification- we’re being made into His likeness Glorification- that’s what happens at the finish When God conforms believers perfectly to Christ’s image! Chorus Verse 3 God’s grace is magnificent, He slayed His innocent Son- through faith and repentance we get the benefits What is faith? Faith is a gift from God- when we receive this We trust and treasure the person and finished work of Jesus Repentance? Repentance is turning from your sin And trusting Christ as the Spirit cleanses you within What is grace? Oh, grace is unmerited favor Our inheritance major ‘cause we cherish the Savior Right, and if I may quote again, we were doomed with Satan But believers get Jesus’ righteousness through imputation Imputation? God takes Jesus’ righteousness amount Through faith He credits it into the Christian’s account Anything else? Well, I guess this overview must suffice But none of this is possible apart from union with Christ And finally, once you know the ways of the Lord than the only thing that you can say is Soli Deo Gloria! Chorus"

That's a rap song. Does that make it any less Christian than if it were a hymn?

Rap is a form of art. I should have clarified this earlier. Hip-Hoppers try to fade the line between Rap and Hip-Hop. Dont get me wrong I love Rap when it is used for the glory of God, just don't call it Hip-Hop.

Okay…… that's a first. I have to say that I've never heard of anyone who holds that position… :P

Okay, here's the lyrics to a rock song by Third Day. Would you be okay with this song, even though it has some hard drums and electric guitars?

I want to sing a song for You, Lord
Lord, for You I want to sing a song
And I want to lift my voice to Heaven
And listen to the angels sing along

[chorus:]
A song of Your faithfulness
A song of Your grace
And of Your loving kindness
To the glory of Your name
With everything that's in me, Lord
Listen to me say
I want to sing a song for You
I want to sing a song

I want to live my life for You, Lord
Lord, for You I want to live my life
And I want to praise the name of Jesus
And Pray above all things You're glorified

[chorus]

And I sing about Your mercy
And I sing about Your love
Your goodness, Lord
Your righteousness
I want to sing…

[chorus]

And we'll sing holy, holy, holy
We'll sing holy, holy, holy
We'll shout holy, holy
Are You Lord almighty

I'm not trying to bash people's music I'm just explaining my views. I have heard this song before and I like it, but like I said before it shouldn't be called Christian Rock.

Why not, may I ask? Do you have a better name for it?

Rap is a form of art. I should have clarified this earlier. Hip-Hoppers try to fade the line between Rap and Hip-Hop.

What is the difference between rap and hip-hop, in your opinion, by the way?

And the origin of rap was glorification of immorality, and it was laced with terrible language. And yet Christians have turned it around for God's glory, and they kept it under the same name. Why can't we keep rock music under the same name?

Rapping isnt a form of music but rather poetry. People use it in music. The term Rock identifies with a type of music that doesn't glorify God, but so does Rap. Maybe we should change the name of Christian Rap, or maybe we should keep the name for both of them. What do you think ?

The point I was trying to make is that, yes, they both originated as worldly music, and yet we keep the name of one, so I think it should be okay to keep the name of the other. I don't think there's anything inherently evil about the name "rock."

That said, there is some "Christian" "rock music" that a lot of people would be slow to label as Christian.

We're talking genres here, of which there are many.

And just as people have varying opinions when viewing a piece of art, so people have different tastes in musical genres.

Let's always keep in mind, though, that these are all just opinions.

One opinion is trying to establish that the originator of a genre automatically has ownership of that genre day and night forever and ever, and no one else can have a part of that genre without having some part, then, with the originator.

That logic is as follows: If the world created a specific genre of music first, any other variations or similarities that are offspring to this genre must be grouped together with the world, its originator.

Let's use this logic in other areas, and take it to its logical conclusions (the following are examples, NOT actual recollections):

1) The first person to create and use the literary genre of nonfiction was an unsaved member of the pagan world, and he used the genre for sinful purposes, telling the true story of a tribal witch doctor; therefore, anyone who contructs a nonfiction book to express themselves must be grouped with the unsaved world because of its sinful origins. The same would apply to poetry (rap), fiction, etc.

2) The first person to create and speak the English language was an unsaved member of the unregenerate world, and she used the language with other pagan cohorts to confuse their enemies and ultimately destroy them; therefore, anyone who uses Englsh to express themselves, even if to translate the Holy Scriptures into THAT language is guilty by association with the wretched pagan originators!

3) The binary code used to develop software programs for computers and the internet was created by heinously sinful men who wanted to use computers and the internet to ultimately indoctrinate the world's youth with secular humanistic philosophies; therefore, anyone who uses this necessary code to construct Christian, even missionary-based, computer programming and/or websites is guilty by association with these vile men.

I would venture to say that a lot, probably most, of the items we own; the styles and genres of literature, music, attire, appearance we enjoy; and the manner by which we communicate all originated from wickedly sinful people (oh, I guess that would include ALL of mankind), most of whom had, consciously or unconsciously, sinister and nefarious plans in formulating their creations (tends to be the case with those wickedly deceptive hearts we all have).

The Apostle Paul says in Romans 14-15, as well as 1 Corinthians 9-10, that we will have different preferences and liberties that are governed by our consciences. Someone can easily be offended and pricked by their conscience over another professing Christian eating meat that was previously served to idols. In today's terms, I may get offended by someone who listens to the genre of Christian country music, because my conscience feels guilt if I personally listen to it and because I may further believe that its roots are based in debased living; however, when I start to make a general rule/law, particularly unsupported by Scripture, I enter into the realm of Legalism.

Therefore, if a professing Christian wants to hold the opinion that the genre of "rock" music is evil because of its reported origins, but another professing Christian loves to listen to that genre of music when Christian, God-honoring lyrics are used with that style of music, neither one of them is wrong, so long as their conscience is clear. One only falls into sin if the he/she listens to the genre in front of the other who has expressed offense at that style of music, OR if the one tells the other that NO ONE should listen to that genre of music, even if the lyrics are Christian, nor should he or she even use the name of that genre to describe the music.

Let the Bible be our guide when establishing our preferences, and let us respect one another's preferences; but let's also be careful to not go beyond our own personal preferences, and make them a law for others to have to follow. That's what the Pharisees did with the Sabbath and other of God's laws, adding their personal preferences to His Word and making it law for everyone else.

Dangerous, slippery slope ……..

Sorry, I forgot to answer your earlier question about the difference between rap and Hip-Hop, Chief. About 30 years ago, a man named Afrika Bambaata took a trip to Africa. While there he studied with a tribe called the Amazulus. They told him that the Black man is God and that Black people should worship themselves. Afrika Bambaata decided that the Black youth of America needed to hear this, so he teamed up with people like Kool Herc and KRS-One(who still has "Christian" CDs in every major Christian Bookstore) to form what we know today as Hip-Hop. Hip-Hop is a religion that revolves around the doctrine of the Five-percenters. The Five-percenters also believe that Black people are gods. The main element Hip-Hop uses to get its point across is rap. People have to understand that rap is just a tool used by hip-hoppers. The thing is they have made the culture believe that rap and Hip-Hop are one and the same. I hope I may have cleared that up a little bit for you.

Im not going against the origin of Rock, but rather what Rock is today. I know that as a Christian I don't want to associate with something profane.

I have never heard any of that about hip-hop before. What is your source for this information?

A guy named G Craige Lewis. You can visit his website: exministries.com. I have all his dvds.

If you're going to lump ALL "rock" music into the genre of "rock" and call it ALL profane because the secular segment of it is profane today, then, again, according to your logic:

1) ALL "nonfiction" literature is humanistic today because secular "nonfiction" is humanistic;

2) ALL comic books are immoral because secular comic books are immoral;

3) ALL artwork is pantheistic because secular modern art is pantheistic.

Do you get the point?

You just made a broad, sweeping critique of the entire genre of "rock" music all based on your opinion that it is profane. Yet, I could give you several examples of Christian "rock" music that dispels that notion; however, you have already expressed your preference to not call any form of "rock" music Christian. But as I said in my previous post, that is only your opinion, and you can't make moral judgments on others based solely on your opinion. You can have your opinion, but no one else is required to share it with you.

I agree with you that SECULAR "rock" music is profane, but that argument can be made for almost all secular music. But, whether you want to incorporate it into your personal opinion or not, there IS Christian "rock" music, and it is definitely NOT profane.

P.S. Again with the origins!! Regardless of where Hip Hop or Rock n' Roll originated, it's a GENRE of music; therefore, there can be Christian Hip Hop music. (I appreciate your opinion, but you have to realize that you keep mixing your opinion in with the objective and reaching subjective conclusions that you keep pushing as the way things should be.)

Christian rock music is really Christian lyrics put to a beat. So it is Christian. I just think, personally, that its a little weird to call it Christian Rock. If you read my earlier posts you will see that Hip-Hop is not a genre of music but rather a religion. Which is why there can be no Christian Hip-Hop, but there can be Christian rap. Hip-Hop and Rap are NOT the same thing.
P.S. Its not my opinion, its facts.

So are you basically saying that any song categorized as "hip-hop," whether secular or Christian is actually rap, since you don't think hip-hop is a legitimate genre of music?

Yep the funny thing is they insist to be called Holy Hip-Hoppers even when people explain to them about Hip-Hop.

So where do you think the name "hip-hop" originally came from?

I forgot the name of the people who came up with the name, but they say that they got it from the way the ladies behinds were moving to their music.

Yeah, that's what I've heard. I just wondered how it fit in with that whole religion thing you explained before.

So are you able to give a concise definition of rap, which would include all of today's Christian "hip-hop" artists?

Ugh. I am SO confused about music.

I never thought that rock or "off-beat syncopation" music was sinful, but now I wonder…no argument has solidly hit me as convincingly showing that rock music is bad, but I am getting general vibes that non-rocky, non-offbeat music is beautiful, and rocky music is sensual…I mean, that's the way people originally thought of rock-type off-beat music, as something rebellious and worldly…I'm confused! Maybe I should just not listen to rock just in case, since classical is more beautiful anyway. But no argument has managed to "hit me in the head" and convince me that rock is definitely bad, so I'm rather confused…

Any relevant Bible verses?

I agree. Classical music actually has beauty. I must confess that most modern music has little beauty. (Rap is an exception, thought that's probably because I happen to enjoy it.)
Yeah. I see your dilemma. I kinda have the same feelings, too.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints" I Corinthians 14:33 While I do not believe that all music should be classified as evil just because there is evil music out there, I do believe that this verse should be considered. Even though God has created some things that are difficult to understand, he is not the creator of confusion. The word "confusion" means "instability, a state of disorder, disturbance, confusion." Everything God makes has a certain unity and harmony to it, which, I believe, is lacking in certain types of music. Rap music, in my opinion, seems to only be a jumble of words spoken to a beat with who-knows-what adding background noise. Really, I do not find beauty or order in music like that. Also, some music has sensual rhythms that stir up passions that are very ungodly both by their music and words. Personally, I think the body relates more to the music than to the words. Therefore, if you hear a song with the same beats but with "clean" words, are you expecting your body to accept it as a "clean" song? For me, I don't think it would make much difference at all. It doesn't even take drums to make ungodly music. It depends on what the music does for you. For me, there are certain songs that can stir up my emotions to a dangerous level. If left uncontrolled, they can do tremendous damage. However, I have sung hymns that have filled me with love for God and for others around me. It stirs something in me, not emotional high, but deep love.

Also, constant repetitions beats that drown out the melody can do things to a person as well. I remember a visiting minister at our church who was speaking on the subject of music. He basically said that, if you hear a constant beat, you will do two things: ignore it or enter into it. When you enter into it, you allow it to stir your emotions and actions. Now I am not saying that it is wrong to feel emotion while you are singing or listening to music. Rather, it is the actions that these emotions stir inside of you.

I realize this was a bit of a ramble, but I hope it can be understood!

I understood it okay.
I think if you can understand the words of a song, and so long as those words are Christian and God-glorifying, then it should be okay, though, as you mentioned, beat and etc. does affect us.
I know a lot of times rap can be very hard to understand. But on the other hand, some people can understand it perfectly fine (or maybe they're just pretending :-). I think if you listen to it enough, just like if you live someplace where a certain 'dialect' is very thick, you will get used to it and be able to understand it.

It is sort of annoying when rappers rap too fast to understand. But there are many rappers that rap slowly enough or have clear enough voices that you can understand everything they say (Shai Linne, for example). Although I have to admit, it is fun to see how fast and long someone can rap without taking a breath or messing up. :P

I think it is a little more than annoying. It is unfruitful.