Head Coverings

I feel like you're just trolling now, since it's been weeks since this discussion was active. *I didn't even know it existed until a few days ago; so when I came on here, I just said what I had to say. I didn't even know when the stuff was posted (though I figured it was relatively recently).* No one regularly says that their opponent sounds pro-homosexual around here, so don't act like they do. *Perhaps it hasn't happened on Memverse for awhile. _That's not the point._ The point is that that's starting to become a common thing for Christians to do in debates; I've seen it outside of Memverse too. I was making a general reference.* I was merely pointing out that this passage and those specific verses in Romans 1 are very similar. *There are much clearer verses.* I made the point that I did because pro-homosexual scholars legitimately make that point in their argumentation. *Did you mention the Matthew Vines thing before on the forums? If so, I apologize, because I didn't see it.* so it's not like I'm saying that if you're against head coverings, you're making homosexuality perfectly biblically-acceptable. *I never said that's what you meant. My point in all of this really isn't in details of what you or anyone said. The point is that homosexuality and head exposure are SO FAR from each other that they shouldn't even be compared. Unless it's in the context of pointing out things such as what Matthew Vine said, in which case refer to my response to the previous. :-)*

Sorry, since we had this debate over e-mail, I forgot you weren't present for it here.

I did mention Matthew Vines on the previous page, when quoting from an e-mail from the correspondence among you, Martin, and me:

"Matthew Vines, the pro-gay conservative "Christian" champion of the last few years has *specifically* used the argument that, if we can overlook Paul's appeal to natural order in 1 Corinthians 11 with regard to head coverings, we should certainly be able to do so in Romans 1 with regard to [non-heterosexual] relations."

Oops, that's not the same comment I read. :-P Maybe I should have read all of them.

Hi, I realize I'm new to the conversation here.

Hope you don't mind me jumping in here. You may find my (free) study to be helpful…

www.bitly.com/CoveredGlory

It contains plenty of discussion regarding various aspects of 1 Corinthians 11, including the Greek.

There's also a shorter/condensed edition of the study, as well as an extensive overview of the history of headcovering within Christianity.

Hope it's helpful ~

Thank you, David! I downloaded the PDF and plan to read through it soon. =)

I wear a head covering. I call it my hair, which is more than some have now. 8P I have friends that I go to church with that wear actual head coverings, including my sister-in-law. It doesn't divide us, in fact I don't think it even bothers anybody. Since my dad was with CAP, so he doesn't allow the boys to wear hats in buildings. But girls are allowed to wear hats, head coverings, whatever in buildings. I think girls should keep their hair longer than their ears, but I do have friends that have it shorter, so it won't cause me to not be your friend. I'd also rather boys keep their hair shorter than their ears, but that is just personal preference. I really don't mind how far up it goes, some boys I know have 2 or 3 inches of hair sticking up. But others like my bothers prefer buzz-cuts.

I don't have much to say about this subject, but I think these verses answer the whole thing pretty much.

1Corithians 11:14 - "Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"

and

1 Corinthians 11:15 - "But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering."

So I believe a woman's hair is her covering, which is why I want long hair and don't believe women should cut their hair really short (one of the biggest reasons anyways, though I do know that there are diseases, or whatever you would call them, that make women need to cut their hair short sometimes). Also I think the bible makes it clear that men don't need a covering and shouldn't have long hair. :)

@Eirene I was always a little confused about that interpretation. If the covering Paul was talking about in 1 Corinthians 11:4-5 is hair, then why would he say, "5 But any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered disgraces her head, for it is one and the same thing as having a shaved head. 6 For if a woman will not cover her head, she should cut off her hair. But if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, she should cover her head."? If that interpretation is correct, Paul is basically saying, "A woman should either have long hair, or she should cut her hair." I'm no Greek scholar, so I may be completely wrong about this, but it looks like the words for "covered" and "uncovered" in verses 5 and 6 are unrelated to the word for "covering" in verse 11. Do you have any thoughts on this?

13 Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a wife to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not nature itself teach you that if a man wears long hair it is a disgrace for him, 15 but if a woman has long hair, it is her glory? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16 If anyone is inclined to be contentious, we have no such practice, nor do the churches of God. 1 Cor 11:13-16 (ESV) These verses make me think that Paul is really just saying doesn't really matter, chose for yourself.
@Joshua- Do your mother and sisters wear head-coverings?

@Rosie C. (Rosalina Cassandra III) Yeah, I thought verse 16 was very interesting! This is definitely not something that should cause controversy, although I think if it didn't matter at all, it wouldn't make any sense for Paul to talk about it for 16 verses. I got the impression that verse 13 is rhetorical and verse 16 is saying that if someone is going to cause division over this issue, then maintaining unity is more important.
My mother and sister wear head-coverings in church meetings, but not anywhere else. The idea is that 1 Corinthians 11 is in the context of the church gathering together. I'm not sure what I think about that, but since I'm young, male, and unmarried, it doesn't really matter for me yet.

@Joshua- I got the idea that maybe Paul was asked the question because there were issues about this in the church, and its like he basically says if you want to go ahead, but if don't want to you don't have to.
There is one woman at our church and 2 of her 6 daughters wear head covering while they pray but, they take them off when church is done.

I like what you've said, I think. But if we are to "pray without ceasing", and (just assuming) we're to wear coverings when we pray, why shouldn't women wear them all the time?

I'm working on studying the rest of 1Cor. 11. What you said really got me started. :) I'm going to do some greek studies on the subject - I'll let y'all know what I find. I think most of the chapter makes sense, with our regular definitions, but verses 5 and 6 are what I'm not quite getting. I'll get back you ya later or tomorrow probably.

@Eirene It would be kind of strange for Paul to tell women to wear head coverings when praying or prophesying if he really meant they should wear them all the time. I think that might being a bit too legalistic with this passage, not that I'm criticizing people who wear head coverings all the time. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

You could see it that way, but we know that no scripture ever contradicts another scripture, though it may seem that way to me and others at times. If it did Scripture wouldn't be infallible. So I think 1Thes. 5:17 might be a good cross-reference to help understand that verse more deeply, if you believe in 'head coverings'. I do not wish to be seen as legalistic, but I do wish to take All of the bible as straightforwardly as possible. I understand the verse "Pray without ceasing" to mean that we are always to be thinking of God, especially since we are to "do everything as unto the Lord, and not unto men."

@Eirene I would agree with you about the meaning of 1 Thessalonians 5:17, and I do not think it contradicts 1 Corinthians 11. I also believe we should take the Bible straightforwardly. However, I do not believe we should become like the Jews in Jesus day, so tied up in technicalities that we miss the point. For example, 1 Corinthians 16:20 says "Greet one another with a holy kiss," but I don't think that means we have to go around kissing Christians. It doesn't seem to me that a constant awareness of God is what Paul is talking about here. For example, he says in verse 16, "For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels" (NKJV). It seems to me that this is a public display, not personal, private communication with God.
Anyway, what do you think about what I said earlier about why I believe that head coverings should be used?
(By the way, I appreciate your polite responses. I hope I'm not coming across as accusing you of anything. I respect your opinions.)

@Rosie In verse 2, Paul praises the Corinthians for "keeping the traditions." I got the impression that Paul wanted them to follow his instructions unless there would be controversy. Of course, head coverings are just a symbol. What's more important is what the symbol represents (not a very popular topic in modern society).

@JOSHUA: That's what I was trying to say - about it not contradicting. Sorry if that wasn't quite clear. :) I also agree that it is very important not to be consumed with little minor details. Some things people might have done back then, but would be totally seen in the wrong way if it was done today. :P
I get what you're saying about it being a public display, not like where it says you should pray in secret, - so, you think either one is fine (Wearing a “covering” all the time or just when praying)?
Whups – Sorry, I forgot about that post. I have done a little Greek study on those verses, and it is quite confusing. I am going to be doing some more. But I think when Paul says
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered."
I think "uncovered" could mean short hair, possibly like a boys, which would make sense because earlier in the passage it says,
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head."
So men and women are supposed to act differently, and women are supposed to be “covered”, to show their difference from men. I think he’s saying that women should be “covered” - keep their hair at least somewhat long - and men to not be covered - have short hair - instead of the other way around, because “the head of the woman is the man.” So in being “covered,” women are showing their submissiveness and differences to the men, their husbands, who are the head of their home and the spiritual leader, and also other church men, who are the church leaders.
Shorn and shaven could mean "bald," covered would be "long" hair…what my parents have always taught me about the length of hair is that a woman's should be plenty long enough for other people to be able to tell she's a woman. Have you ever seen someone with long hair, yet you're not sure what gender they are? I really dislike seeing people like that. I am not sure on nearly all of this. These are just speculations of mine (and my older siblings) that could be correct or incorrect.
Thank you. I have had more than one bad experience with what careless words can do to a friendship, which is very sad, but I believe it has taught me to rely on God more to help me think before I speak. It is very important to always speak politely and respect others opinions no matter if you agree with them or not.

@Joshua- Well, there is controversy in Paris about people openly displaying their faith. I'm in a rush so if you don't know what I mean ask and I'll try to tell you when its not looks at the clock _{12:32 in the morning!!!!!!!!!}

I came across this verse once, and it really confused me. The first time I read it, I ignored it; the second time, I couldn't. However, I came to realize that verse 15 in this chapter held my answer: But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. I believe that this is the reason the Lord would have us (that is, us women ;) grow out our hair, because that is supposed to be our head covering. I'm totally open to correction, though, as long as you have the Word (in context) to support what you are saying.