Magic

If you have ever seen someone do "magic", you probably know that it was not really any supernatural powers at work. But is there real magic? for instance, when the magicians of pharaohs court replicated the miracles that god did through Moses. On a similar note, are there real mediums? people who can contact the dead. Houdini spent a few years trying to find out if they where real, and he did not find any. What do you think?

I believe that there are real mediums and people who communicate with spirits, such as the one in 1 Samuel 28, when Saul used witchcraft to call up Samuel from the dead. I really don’t know much about things like that… but it seems clear that the spirit called up really was Samuel’s; and seeing that the prophecy came true is proof. (1 Samuel 28:8-20)

Still, the Bible makes it clear that calling on spirits (other then the Holy Spirit) is wrong.

This is an interesting discussion for me. What about magic in books, like Narnia or LotR? What about like Halloween? Should we read magic books or watch movies that have magic in them? Is it wholesome entertainment?

My personal opinion is that I have not heard of any "magic" that can not be explained by natural causes. as I have studied magic a decent amount. But I am wondered what others thought. Also what do you all think about whether christians should read/watch harry potter, lord of the rings, etc. and why?

Lemme take this step-by-step…

First off, in Lord of the Rings, "magic" is always supernatural power, and always comes from one of two sources: God (Eru), or Satan (Melkor). The good guys always have power from God (i.e Gandalf), or have power because of who they are (Elves). Otherwise, they have power from evil sources (i.e Sauron, the One Ring, etc). There is a clear distinction between good and evil in the books and movies, and those who use evil power are always portrayed as evil.

In the Narnia books, "magic" is basically the same way as it is in LOTR. There is a distinction between good and evil, and there is the presence of God in the world of Narnia (The Emperor over the Sea, and Aslan represents Jesus), Good guys use power given them by God, and the evil characters use power given to them by darker, evil forces, that aren't specifically names, but implied as satanic. Either way, in each world, no good character ever goes to demonic sources for power. EVER. Anyone who does, is evil, which lines up with Scripture.

Halloween however, is a "holiday" that has pagan roots, and has evolved into an event solely for the purpose of celebrating fear and scary things. I'm still not sure whether to say it is evil or not, but I would say that most Christians are uncomfortable with it for a reason, and that should be enough to keep you away.

You need to define "magic books". :P

Again, it depends on how you define "magic". In most modern entertainment, "magic" is a synonym for "super powers that can be taught". If "magic", is a feature of another world, as much as gravity is in ours, why is it wrong? And as long as the movie, or game, or whatever form of media it is, does not try to endorse going to demonic sources for power, I believe that it is fine for Christians to partake of it.

We also discussed this here:

https://www.memverse.com/forums/theology-discussions/topics/is-magic-in-books-movies-okay-for-christians

Thank you, that helps a lot.

I do NOT like Halloween. I remember hearing something about it having roots in worshiping the dead? And really, is there such a thing as ghosts? I don't think so…

Magic books…books that mention or describe magic, I suppose…

But does magic really exist? Other worlds don't exist, so if it doesn't exist in ours, then it is fiction.

Remember when Jesus appeared to the disciples after being raised from the dead? They thought He was a ghost, and He had to assure them that He wasn't. He never said that ghosts didn't exist, only that He wasn't one. So…maybe they do. ;)

That's still vague. Are you talking about fantasy series in which character use "magic"? In that case, I'd refer you to the last paragraph of my last post.

In our world, witchcraft does exist. It is always wrong, to practice witchcraft, as is said in Scripture. However, "magic", as used in most fantasy literature, is simply fictional, and has no roots in real life.

Ah! I never even thought of that.

Okay, yes, I think that that means books in which characters use magic. Books that describe in detail the use of witchcraft or magic, etc., etc.

Isn't magic pretty closely related to witchcraft? I know we want to stay as far away from that as possible. The area of magic just seems pretty gray to me. And as Christians we should not try to get as close to black as we can without being in the black, we want to stay in the pure white as much as we can.

Again, in modern entertainment, "magic" is just a byword for "super powers that can be taught". I don't see many Christians having a problem with Superman, but as soon as "magic" is mentioned, they flip out. Case in point: Harry Potter. Harry is born with the powers he has, and goes to the Hogwarts school to learn to control them. We could point at games, like Skyrim, where pretty much anyone could learn to use "magic", if they set their minds to it. It's jut part of their world, as much as the laws of physics are in ours. If it makes you feel uncomfortable, I wouldn't fault you for staying away from it. However, I will not say that the use of "magic" in fantasy is bad. As I've said, if it's part of their world, and does not try to encourage the reader/watcher to dabble in real witchcraft, I would say that it's fine.

so what problems do people see in watching/reading Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc?

so what problems do people see in watching/reading Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, etc?

Harry Potter. Harry Potter was written by a witch who calmed to have been under the influenced of a supernatural being while writing the books. They have witchcraft in them (regardless of what the books call it). I don't think I want to read them.

Skyrim. I have never played skyrim so I don't know. I say if its a fictitious scientific force (kinda like electricity and magnets in our world) then its Ok. but magic words, etchings, ext; (if they have any affect other then looking cool) are not ok.

Lord of the Rings. the magic is a bit shady. and the "but it's a good wizard" excuse was not enough for dad to let us read them.

Narnia. Often mistaken for an allegory. its borderline but okay. More could be said.

Also I don't have much of a problem with telepathic/telepathy as long as its a science (in that it is subject-able to observation and experimentation).

I just wonder what reading/watching things about magic make you do or think that is wrong.

The bad-guys can use all the magic the want, so long as we have their heads in the end. the trouble comes in when the good-guys use it…and its portrayed as good.

Leviticus 20:27
“A man or a woman who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be put to death. They shall be stoned with stones; their blood shall be upon them.” (Dose that seem a bit harsh to anyone? if it's that bad to God… what dose He think of entertainment that promotes it?)

1 Corinthians 6:19-20
Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. (In my opinion this includes the brain)

'White' magic is no exemption.
2 Corinthians 11:14
And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.

Thank you for your input! Though I'm still not sure about what I think about it, the issue is a bit clearer now for me. :)

STRANGE MAGIC!

What about it?

is the problem with magic, that people might start doing sorcery, or witchcraft? because that seems a little far fetched.

What about it?

It is strange.

That would be a problem, if people started doing witchcraft. But the sin is not only in doing that. Remember Saul? He didn't do the witchcraft, but it was still a sin for him to go to the witch.

God wants us to believe what He says without proof. He should not have to give us proof that what he comments is truth.
Perhaps the truth was hidden from people like Houdini who tried to proof that magic was not real because they would not take God at His word. So they think they provide that witchcraft is nothing, but in reality it is much worse.

????????

Um, what? What are you trying to say here? I don't understand.

I'm saying that perhaps God or Satan hid the truth about witchcraft from Houdini (and others trying to prove there is no such thing as real witchcraft) because they where not taking Him at His word. They did not truly believe Him (that it is wrong and we should stay away from it), so they were led astray in their "wisdom".
Dose that make more sense?

Not to me. Why? They were simply practicing sleight-of-hand, under the moniker of "magic", which is a subjective term. I still don't get why you're saying God would have hidden from their eyes the evil of witchcraft.

That's what I mean. Maybe those witchs where just pretending to be witches… but God didn't allow the evils of witchcraft to be discovered because of what would happen if people did fine it to be a sorce of power? Satan dose have power you know. He goes about like a roaring lion.

This is just a thought I had… I may be completely wrong.

Why were they "witches"? Is anyone who practices sleight-of-hand a witch? Seriously?

Why were they "witches"? Is anyone who practices sleight-of-hand a witch? Seriously?

No. it's slight-of-hand NOT magic. someone who clams to be a witch and have demonic power is vastly different then an attention seeker who wishes to baffle his audience.

Okay. Now I am confused. I wasn't originally talking about "practicing slight-of-hand"… I was talking about God hidding truth from people who refuse to believe.

I don't see any reason why God would "hide" magic from people like Houdini. It is possible, but I don't know why he would. that would be like if Jesus said for us to only preach the gospel to certain people and make sure others didn't find out about it.

Well, it's not something we do. It would be something God would do. Matthew 13:14-15
I don't know why God would hid anything from anyone either. :/

^Some thoughts and questions from the dumbest person on memvirse (and sorry, I have no bible references).^

1. This seems to be mostly speculation on things we humans really know almost nothing about.
2. Since we are speculating I'll take the liberty to speculate that Satan is not a brainless nincompoop, rather a master deceiver and the father of lies.
3. The first thing that comes to mind when people question the power of spirits and demons (or their vary existence) is a quote from an old book “Appear weak when you are strong, and strong when you are weak.” ― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

Some questions that might help:
How do we classify something as a spirit? (possibly several answers)
What do we know about these spirit things? (axioms derived from self-supporting bible verses would be helpful)
Can Satan can predict his own actions like we can?
Can spirits of any sort be detected by any/all of our seven scenes?
Can demons remember a persons life well enough to imitate it? (a possible explanation for Saul's encounter)