Pre-Tribulation Or Post Tribulation Rapture?

In other words, is the Church going to go through the Great Tribulation?

Discuss!

Have members of the church ever gone through great tribulations since Christ ascended? (rhetorical)

Why wouldn't they at any other time until His Second Advent?

The church IS going through the tribulation as we speak. To differing levels across the world and in different times, but this 'age' (the forty-two months = 3.5 years = time, times, and half a time) is the tribulation.
The dragon, beast and harlot (symbolic of political persecution, theological/doctrinal perversion, and the world) are persecuting the church as we speak.

It's 3.5 years, fyi. ;)

Nowhere in the Bible does it clearly state that there will be a rapture. All it says is that Christians will be taken up to heaven. And…what happens when you die? The "rapture" could simply be a mass persecution with most or all Christians being martyred.

Oops. Then it would be time (1 year), times (2 years), and half a time (half a year) = forty-two mos.

Maybe I presented this wrong.

There are two major belief's which are totally opposite from one another concerning some major end time events.

One believes that Jesus can come at any time and waft away his Church on pillows of ease before the tribulation, the mark of the beast, the persecutions, the command to worship the image etc.

Thee other believes, we will go through the tribulation from the beginning to end, and a time line of events must occur before Jesus returns.

I was hoping we could discus these two points of view based on scriptural evidence.
I may have time to present my point of view today, but I am getting ready for a out of town trip. But if I finish early I may be able to jump in.

Like I said in my previous post:

Haven't the members of the church gone through great tribulations ever since Christ ascended into heaven?

Why wouldn't they continue to go through them all the way up until the time when He returns?

Wouldn't their absence during a 7-year Great Tribulation contradict the Scriptures that say that no man knows the time of Christ's return? If everyone knows when the Great Tribulation begins (once it would occur), wouldn't nearly every man then know when Christ would return (just add 7 years)?

And why would God take His people out of this particular 7 years of tribulation, yet leave them susceptible to 2,000 years (and going) of it?

These things have I spoke unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In this world you shall have tribulation - but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. ~ John 16:33

Wretched Man, you shared some good thoughts on the topic. Suffering is part of walking with Christ.

I trust Him for today. I trust Him for tomorrow. I trust Him for eternity. And I trust Him for the "end times," whatever that may be and whatever it may involve (probably something much different than most people think). It is not my jurisdiction to know what happens and when - it is mine to trust my Almighty Father and rest in His care. I don't care what happens - He orchestrates it and I rest in Him TODAY. The "now" is the time He has given me to enjoy Him.

WM- tribulations??? seriously! John 16:33

Doc Oct - " the chuch is going through the tribulation as we speak.

1. What tribulation? The seven years of the Great Tribulation?

To differing levels across the world and in different times, but this 'age' (the forty-two months = 3.5 years = time, times, and half a time) is the tribulation.

1. Does that come before the great trib.?

The dragon, beast and harlot (symbolic of political persecution, theological/doctrinal perversion, and the world) are persecuting the church as we speak."

1. As far as I know, the prophets referred to the devil as the dragon, the beast as the antichrist, and Israel as the harlot. Is that what you are saying?

Erika:

I agree with your part that it is not our jurisdiction to know the future. At least I agree if you mean that we do not have to know every part of the end-times. In John 16:33, that says that we will have tribulation. But note one important thing: Jesus said that not only to us, but also to his disciples. So when we are experiencing tribulation in this world, remember that Jesus' disciples had it worse. We have Obamacare, but they were being tortured. So how could the tribulation be beginning now?

The Bible is clear.

Nobody said that everyone in the church has the same degree of tribulation. The disciples of Jesus' time were in the Tribulation just as we are. Christians in America just don't suffer as much for their faith because they aren't as outspoken and straightforward as them.

Exactly, Joshua and ChiefofSinners! Tribulation is part of every disciples' life - ours and theirs. It is a sign that we are following Christ. Tribulation cannot be beginning now unless Christ had no disciples until now! People tend to get scared, "Oh no! Tribulation's coming! How awful! I really don't want to be here for it so I believe in pre-trib rapture…" (That portrayal is slightly oversimplified, but it does portray a "logical" pathway that many Christians take without even knowing it - it is the attitude that a lot of "end times" material tries to feed. "Logical" is in quotes because that mindset is an appeal to fear.) What are we scared of?! Tribulation is here and has been here since Bible times. We are not waiting for tribulation to begin - there is nothing to be scared of! Trust Christ - He will see you through the tribulations you face today, and He holds tomorrow.

By the way, Abi is correct in pointing out that "rapture" is not a Biblical term.

There's also a mid-tribulation view :)

And for a- and post-mils, this discussion isn't very relevant.

Deep breath…
I feel funny being the first one to post who believes in a pre- trib rapture.
I'm kind of confused when I read your posts, everyone. I think that there are two meanings of tribulation. One is just plain 'tribulation', whereas the other one is 'the' Tribulation. I might be wrong here, but it seems to me that some of you are getting the two meanings mixed up. I believe that, yes, we are going through tribulation- it's pretty obvious! But I do think that the Great Tribulation is in the future.
Erika, I do want to say that your statement that Christians who believe in a pre-trib rapture because of fear is a generalization. I believe in a pre-trib rapture because I think the Bible says there will be a pre-trib rapture. I don't believe it because of fear.
I know that this is no subject to get heated or break fellowship over. I hope I'm not misinterpreting anyone here. But could someone please give me a clearer statement of why you believe that we are going through 'the' Tribulation now?

What do you guys think of Matthew 13:24-30? To me it sounds like post-trib. I don't know not a big ends time guy. I will say this though, persecution is happening to the church around the world right now. We Americans have it pretty well off right now :) Which sometimes makes me think how positively we're influencing the world for God. "All that live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." I know I can be kind of a crazy, weird guy sometimes. :) To those who met me at Nationals sorry :) Just wonder what you guys think.

The Bible definitely teaches that the rapture will be after the tribulation. Matthew 24 describes the Great Tribulation, then verse 29 starts out with "Immediately after this…" and the rapture is described after that. I don't know a whole lot about this debate either, but to me Matthew 24 settles it, even though almost all of my friends believe in the pre-trib rapture. I've heard that the pre-tribulation wasn't even made up until somewhat recently by some Catholics who didn't like the idea of going through the tribulation, and decided to interpret the Bible based on their feelings. It's important to let the Bible speak for itself, because God's ways are above our ways (Isaiah 55:9)

Charity, the statement on fear was meant as a generalization and over-simplification. You, for instance, say you don't believe it because of fear. That's great! :) I'm glad that you are confident that you can face the great tribulation that you believe is coming with perfect trust in God and no fear. Not many can resist fear of such things. Keep seeking Him and trusting Him! :)

Can you show me the term "The Great Tribulation" in Scripture? I am not aware of any such term or concept in the Bible. I do understand that there is a reference to "great tribulation" (without the "The" in front of it) in Revelation 7:14 and Matthew 24:21. Revelation 7:14 speaks of 144,000 in heaven in white robes who had come out of great tribulation. The 144,000 are Jews from the 12 tribes - which, by the way, no longer exist as separate entities - so how could a "great tribulation" they went through be in the future?

Matthew seems to define its term very clearly:

"When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

For then shall be great tribulation [Greek: megas thlipsis, literally "big pressure"], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. " (Matthew 24:15-21)

Based on the context, Jesus is talking about the fall of Jerusalem. Remember that in the beginning of the chapter, the disciples asked three questions, "Tell us, when shall these things [all the buildings and stones of the temple being thrown down] be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" He answers all three questions in the discourse that follows - some of it refers to the destruction of the temple, some to His coming, and some to the end of the world.

To me, Matthew 24:21 sounds very comforting (though it was probably terrifying to those who lives during those times): Jesus promised that THEN would be great tribulation - such as had never been and never shall be! According to this, tribulation as great as what the disciples went through at the fall of the temple cannot come again. Everything we face will be less than that. If you read about what Nero and other Roman emperors did to the Christians, this is very believable. It is sickening what they did - inhumane, cruel, violent, immoral, and repulsive.

Thus, based in Scripture, I do not see from Scripture that there is any "The" Tribulation. Jesus spoke of tribulation in general, but never of a particular Tribulation in the future.

Why do so many people think post-tribulation is biblical? Don’t you think God will make a difference between the people in the world and His Church? I think Romans 2:6-12 gives evidence to a pre-tribulation rapture (or at least mid-trib.).
Please understand that I do not know much except what God has shown me in his word, and I have to admit sometimes I am a bite confused with all the new terms I’ve never heard before… but I am learning more every day.
I agree with Angel Cowgirl that we as humans could not ever comprehend God’s ways (Job 26:3). I am fully encouraged as I read these Theological Discussions. Ya’ll encourage me to press the scriptures for truth.

Pardon the ugly Gravatar… even I wince when I see it.

If the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church was made up in the 1800s, I'd like you to explain why it's in the Bible, why Jesus taught it, why Isaiah prophesied of it WAY before the 1800s, and why Margaret MacDonald, (the Scottish woman you mentioned), DID NOT believe in a pre-tribulation rapture herself! Let me make this clear: You stated that Margaret MacDonald "made up" the pre-tribulation rapture in the 1800s. That is simply an untruth, and as Christians we are not to spread untruths. Here is a quote from Todd Strandberg: "When one closely examines MacDonald's vision, it becomes clear that her vision could not have been a pretribulational one. MacDonald looked for a "fiery trial which is to try us," and she foresaw the Church being purged by the Antichrist. Any pretribulation rapturist can tell you the Church will be removed before the advent of the Antichrist. John Bray, an anti-rapturist, said himself that Margaret MacDonald was teaching a single coming of our Lord Jesus. This contradicts current rapture doctrine, which teaches a two-staged event - first, Christ coming for His Church and second, seven years later His return to earth. With so many contradictions between MacDonald's vision and today's pretribulationism, it is difficult to see any linkage."

The bottom line as far as your Margaret MacDonald statement: That's not true, she did not believe in a pre-tribulation rapture by her own account, she furthermore believed in a secret rapture AFTER the tribulation period, and to say they to pre tribulation rapture wasn't believed in by anyone until the 1800s is also untrue, like your first statement.

I would encourage everyone to look into their sources before posting things as facts, as Christians we need to be careful not to spread untruths.

Not only is the pre-tribulation rapture clearly taught in Scripture, but it was taught WAY before the 1800s. Also, I would challenge your statement about ALL of those people you mentioned believing the rapture was after the tribulation period. However, it's insignificant to argue one's beliefs who's dead and can't speak for himself, because many of them changed during their lifetime. Also, you mention some men who believe in infant baptism as necessary for salvation, works based salvation, etc.. The reformers were great, don't get me wrong, but they we're going against the Roman Catholic Regime, and is some cases were still influenced by Catholic doctrine in their own teachings. However, it doesn't matter what Luther, Calvin, or Grandma says when the Bible is clear on this matter. Also, saying that people in the 1500s didn't believe in a pre-tribulation rapture proves nothing. The true Church fathers were way before the reformation. We have documents as early as 95AD teaching the truths of a pre-tribulation rapture, not to mention Daniel, Jeremiah, and Isaiah's prophecies!

Okay, I just have a question for you that seems to go along with Scripture but also seems to contradict some of what you're saying (though it does not totally destroy your argument :D). You said that the church will be nonexistent during the Great Tribulation, which is after the rapture. I don't see how you can say this–Revelation talks about people with the seal of God on their foreheads (meaning believers, and thus, necessarily, the church) in quite a few places when it talks about the Great Tribulation. Do you believe that some people who are believers are not part of the universal church, or… well, I don't presently see an alternative. Could you clarify? Thanks. :)

Those with the seal of God on their foreheads = The 144,000 God will call out during the Tribulation. I am writing a more detailed response I will post soon.

Either you're not being honest with me or your sources aren't. I will post in detail when I get a chance. The bottom line until then about Margret MacDonald: She DID NOT believe in a pre-trib rapture. That's fact.

Also, your statement about the catholics as another untruth. The Catholics believe and always believed like you that we will go through the tribulation as the final cleansing of purgatory.

I'm sorry you didn't notice the pre-tribulation rapture in the Bible. Would you mind if I ask what Bible you're reading?

Okay, C4C, I don't think bringing the "KJV vs. other versions" debate is going to get us anywhere. I'd really rather we didn't have another HUGE discussion about it like we did last time… I don't think that differences in translations affect this topic, so could we please avoid that debate for now?

@leah I would love to see your research on this topic. It sounds very interesting. :) Are you going to post a link on MEMVERSE when you finish?

May I ask where you got this idea that Margaret MacDonald did not believe in a pre-trib rapture? Before rushing to say that her sources were inaccurate, perhaps you could re-evaluate your sources. and like SBG said, translation will not affect what a verse is saying. For some people, different translations use different words that make more sense in their reading of God's Word.

Also, I'm writing a response to your post in the "Rapture?" forum. It's just I've been so busy with schoolwork and life lately, that I haven't had much time for Memverse. Hope you can be patient for me to write a response. :)

Here is Margret MacDonald's original 1830 vision in it's entirety:

"It was first the awful state of the land that was pressed upon me. I saw the blindness and infatuation of the people to be very great. I felt the cry of Liberty just to be the hiss of the serpent, to drown them in perdition. It was just no God.' I repeated the words, Now there is distress of nations, with perplexity, the seas and the waves roaring, men's hearts failing them for fear - now look out for the sign of the Son of man. Here I was made to stop and cry out, 0 it is not known what the sign of the Son of man is; the people of God think they are waiting, but they know not what it is. I felt this needed to be revealed, and that there was great darkness and error about it; but suddenly what it was burst upon me with a glorious light I saw it was just the Lord himself descending from Heaven with a shout, just the glorified man. even Jesus; but that all must, as Stephen was, be filled with the Holy Ghost, that they might look up, and see the brightness of the Father's glory. I saw the error to be, that men think that it will be something seen by the natural eye; but 'tis spiritual discernment that is needed, the eye of God in his people. Many passages were revealed, in a light in which I had not before seen them. I repeated, Now is the kingdom of Heaven like unto ten virgins, who went forth to meet the Bridegroom, five wise and five foolish; they that were foolish took their lamps, but took no oil with them; but they that were wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.' 'But be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is; and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess, but be filled with the Spirit.' This was the oil the wise virgins took in their vessels - this is the light to be kept burning - the light of God - that we may discern that which cometh not with observation to the natural eye. Only those who have the light of God within them will see the sign of his appearance. No need to follow them who say, see here, or see there, for his day shall be as the lightning to those in whom the living Christ is. 'Tis Christ in us that will lift us up - he is the light - 'tis only those that are alive in him that will be caught up to meet him in the air. I saw that we must be in the Spirit, that we might see spiritual things. John was in the Spirit, when he saw a throne set in Heaven. - But I saw that the glory of the ministration of the Spirit had not been known. I repeated frequently, but the spiritual temple must and shall be reared, and the fullness of Christ be poured into his body, and then shall we be caught up to meet him. Oh none will be counted worthy of this calling but his body, which is the church, and which must be a candlestick all of gold. I often said, Oh the glorious inbreaking of God which is now about to burst on this earth; Oh the glorious temple which is now about to be reared, the bride adorned for her husband; and Oh what a holy, holy bride she must be, to be prepared for such a glorious bridegroom. I said, Now shall the people of God have to do with realities - now shall the glorious mystery of God in our nature be known - now shall it be known what it is for man to be glorified. I felt that the revelation of Jesus Christ had yet to be opened up - it is not knowledge about God that it contains, but it is an entering into God - I saw that there was a glorious breaking in of God to be. I feIt as Elijah surrounded with chariots of fire. I saw as it were, the spiritual temple reared, and the Head Stone brought forth with shoutings of grace, grace, unto it. It was a glorious light above the brightness of the sun, that shone round about me. I felt that those who were filled with the spirit could see spiritual things, and feel walking in the midst of them, while those who had not the Spirit could see nothing - so that two shall be in one bed, the one taken and the other left, because the one has the light of God within while the other cannot see the Kingdom of Heaven. I saw the people of God in an awfully dangerous situation, surrounded by nets and entanglements, about to be tried, and many about to be deceived and fall. Now will THE WICKED be revealed, with all power and signs and lying wonders, so that if it were possible the very elect will be deceived. - This is the fiery trial which is to try us. - It will be for the purging and purifying of the real members of the body of Jesus; but Oh it will be a fiery trial. Every soul will be shaken to the very centre. The enemy will try to shake in every thing we have believed - But the trial of real faith will be found to honour and praise and glory. Nothing but what is of God will stand. The stony-ground hearers will be made manifest - the love of many will wax cold I frequently said that night, and often since, now shall the awful sight of a false Christ be seen on this earth. and nothing but the living Christ in us can detect this awful attempt of the enemy to deceive - or it is with all deceivableness of unrighteousness he will work - he will have a counterpart for every part of God's truth and an imitation for every work of the Spirit. The Spirit must and will be poured out on the church, that she may be purified and filled with God - and just in proportion as the Spirit of God works, so will he when our Lord anoints men with power, so will he. This is particularly the nature of the trial, through which those are to pass who will be counted worthy to stand before the Son of man. There will be outward trial too, but `tis principally temptation. It is brought on by the outpouring of the Spirit, and will just increase in proportion as the Spirit is poured out. The trial of the Church is from Antichrist. It is by being filled with the Spirit that we shall be kept. I frequently said, Oh be filled with the Spirit - have the light of God in you, that you may detect Satan - be full of eyes within - be clay in the hands of the potter - submit to be filled, filled with God This will build the temple. It is not by might nor by power, but by my Spirit saith the Lord. This will fit us to enter into the marriage supper of the lamb. I saw It to be the will of God that all should be filled. But what hindered the real life of God from being received by his people, was their turning from Jesus. who is the way to the Father. They were not entering in by the door. For he is faithful who hath said, by me if any man enter in he shall find pasture. They were passing the cross, through which every drop of the Spirit of God flows to us. All power that comes not through the blood of Christ is not of God. When I say, they are looking from the cross, I feel that there is much in it - they turn from the blood of the Lamb, by which we overcome, and in which our robes are washed and made white. There are low views of God's holiness, and ceasing to condemn sin in the flesh, and a looking from him who humbled himself, and made himself of no reputation. Oh! it is needed, much needed at present, a leading back to the cross, I saw that night, and often since, that there will be an outpouring of the Spirit on the body, such as has not been, a baptism of fire, that all the dross may be put away. Oh there must and will be such an indwelling of the living God as has not been - the servants of God sealed in their foreheads - great conformity to Jesus - his holy holy image seen in his people just the bride made comely, by his comeliness put upon her. This is what we are at present made to pray much for, that speedily we may all be made ready to meet our Lord in the air - and it will be. Jesus wants his bride. His desire is toward us. He that shall come, will come, and will not tarry. Amen and Amen. Even so come Lord Jesus."

I doubt any of you have ever ready it before. If you had, you'd see clearly for yourselves that HER VISION WAS A POST-TRIBULATIONAL ONE. That's very clear from her own words. If people would just read it, they wouldn't buy the lie. When we as Christians spread the myth that she made up the pre-tribulational rapture that is found clearly in Scripture, we're spreading lies. Read it for for yoursleves and you'll see the truth. Not to mention we have documents as early as 95AD teaching the truths of a PRE-tribulation rapture.

Here's an interesting chapter to read, for anyone who thinks we're going through the tribulation: (Ezekiel 5)

"And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts. Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her. And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them. Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you; Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations. Therefore the fathers shall eat the sons in the midst of thee, and the sons shall eat their fathers; and I will execute judgments in thee, and the whole remnant of thee will I scatter into all the winds. Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things, and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any pity. A third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them. Thus shall mine anger be accomplished, and I will cause my fury to rest upon them, and I will be comforted: and they shall know that I the LORD have spoken it in my zeal, when I have accomplished my fury in them. Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by. So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it. When I shall send upon them the evil arrows of famine, which shall be for their destruction, and which I will send to destroy you: and I will increase the famine upon you, and will break your staff of bread: So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it."