Rapture?

So, what are your views on the subject of the rapture of the church that many believe today? Is it obviously true? Is it obviously false? Is it difficult to determine either way? Discuss! :)

So personally, I believe that there will be no "secret rapture" of the church. In another topic on this forum, 1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 was brought up in support of a rapture. But this rapture is very obviously not secret; it mentions "a cry of command," "the voice of the archangel," and "the sound of the trumpet of God." Doesn't sound so secret to me! I believe something along the lines of this: One day Christ will come back to the world and all will see Him. Everyone will be judged on that Day; the saved will go to heaven, the unsaved to hell. I have not established a firm foothold on any view as of yet, but I'm working on it. I'll be glad to hear everyone else's views on this subject. :)

Man I was really trying hard to keep my mouth shut on this topic, but Caleb AND Jordan brought it up so I have to do something. :) I don't believe in a rapture. I don't have time to get into why I don't, but I will say a few things. First, why would God rapture His people when such a thing has never been done before? There have been many great tribulations throughout the years, though none can compare to the Great Tribulation that is to come. God never came down on a could with angels flying around and singing and took His people home then. So why now? Also, I know a lot of the scriptures that rapture believers like to bring up are put down by other scriptures, such as Matthew 24. Don't have time to really get into this right now. Thanks again for starting this topic! :D

1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Anybody who takes the Bible at face value, understands the dispensations of God's framework and Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy sees the clear truth of the BIble on this. It ain't rocket science, but umm…yeah it does include flying:)

Hmm… very interesting question. While I am not certain, I would say that there will be some form of "rapture" in the end times. Whether it will be silent or obvious, God's people will be "caught up" in the clouds to meet God. In answer to your specific questions, I believe that neither a LeHaye style "What just happened?" nor a "Here it comes. Wait for it…" rapture is explicitly advocated by the Word of God. The rapture, like most of the events in the end times, is shrouded in mystery. While we might conjure up theories and interpretations, its existence/nonexistence is not completely explicit or obvious, if that makes sense. :)

What do you all think?

Well, the main point of my comment above was to refute a secret rapture. I am not entirely sure whether or not there will be a specific moment in time when all believers will suddenly disappear and go to heaven, however; I am just quite certain that if it does happen, it will not be secret. I also do not believe, if a rapture ever does occur, that it will occur before the "great tribulation." This seems rather odd; God promises us all throughout Scripture that we will suffer for our faith, but we will get out of the biggest suffering of all? That doesn't seem to make sense. I don't have a whole lot of biblical support for my views, so I'd like to hear all sides of this issue, and as much Scripture as possible. :)

@jimmy Waters: Brother, I am thankful that I don't have a Bible that is "shrouded in mystery", but one that is very clear and that EVER JOT AND TITTLE is inspired. Maybe it's shrouded in mystery in the new-age vatican Bibles? Maybe it's not so clear in the new gender-neutral Catholic 2011 NIV? I wouldn't know, it's clear in my Bible.

Describe to me the Great Tribulation, would you? I'm just curious what you think it's going to be like, because of your interesting views on this subject…

"terrible tribulation"…my friend, do you know exactly how terrible it will be? Do you understand WHY there will be a great tribulation? Do you understand HOW POWERFUL our God is? Can we even FATHOM the Power of His Holy WRATH?

Daniel 10:8: "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." That was Daniel's response to how the Great Tribulation is going to be like, it's un-fathomable, yet we think it's going to be some walk in the park where we might feel a little pain or something. You're kidding right? God's power is amazing, oh, and if you believe we are going to be in the tribulation, you must not understand that it is to SHOW GOD'S WRATH. And God's wrath is going to be wiping out MILLIONS OF PEOPLE RELENTLESSY during this, Man, WHERE'S THE BOLD BUTTON? I need caps AND bold here! Oh, and isn't it interesting that after Revelation 4 the Church is no longer mentioned? Weird eh? …oh, what, the rapture has already happened and God's elect are taken up. Amen!

P.S. This is not meant to be a specific challenge for anyone here, I am sorry it says in response to someone, it is meant to just be a post in this topic meant for anyone who does not belive the truths of the rapture. :)

@Cowboy4Christ: I realize that you are enthusiastic, but you might be a little too much so. Not trying to sound mean or anything of that sort, but you are perhaps bordering on rude (I realize it might be accidental). What I am trying to say is that, while some might interpret the Bible a certain way, others might interpret it differently. While some might feel absolutely certain that the Bible supports a pre-trib rapture, other might be equally sure that it is otherwise (post-trib, for instance). The Bible isn't explicit as to interpretations of different things in Revelation and in other books. By "shrouded in mystery," I am saying that the Bible doesn't say "There will certainly, with out a doubt, be a pre-tribulation rapture." Such an event could be in God's plan, but he doesn't say outright that it is so. Exact events can be interpreted different ways. Without explicit statements, mystery still remains (and I think God intends it to be so). Most of the Bible is absolute and impossible to misinterpret, but some of it (such as the section describing the tribulation) can be misinterpreted. Our job as Christians is to be like the Bereans and investigate the Scriptures.

Once again, I say this as a fellow believer and follower of Christ. :)

Hey, C4C, sorry to sound contradictory, but… um, the church is mentioned after Revelation 4. It's not called "the church," but as the church includes all those who are saved, the church is mentioned. Unless you want to argue that those who have the seal of God on their foreheads (and these people are mentioned all over the place) are unsaved… and I don't think you want to argue that. ;D Okay, so, the reason I'm saying that I'm pretty sure that the great tribulation (and yes, I have a pretty good grasp on that; I am fully aware that it will be no "walk in the park") will not be before the rapture is that I don't see any biblical support for a pre-tribulation rapture. If you can find some support for it, wonderful! I will likely believe as you do. Until then, I'll be waiting. :)

I have yet to form an opinion on this subject. My mom thinks that the rapture is going to be a massive, worldwide persecution of Christians, and those that are killed (which will likely be most of them) will go to heaven and so will be in heaven (big shock there!). So she thinks the rapture will happen, but not in the way most people think of it.
As far as the rapture being a secret thing, this idea doesn't seem like something anybody could NOT notice!

@jimmy Waters: I will stand up any day of the week and twice on Sunday against anyone who tries to say the Bible is "shrouded in mystery", or Revelation is a fairy tale or something of the sort. If you feel that that is rude to stand against that statement, then I don't know what to say. The Bible says: "great peace have they which love Thy law and nothing shall offend them". However, I understand that while we're typing these discussions out, somethings could be presumed that aren't meant to be rude. I also know, however, that the Bible speaks of Christians as iron sharpening iron for a reason. And, there's gotta be heat and sparks for iron to sharpen iron, it ain't gonna happen any other way!

Here's more of what I meant however by challenging your statement. I'm just saying that we have God's PERFECT Workd that can be taken at face value. People don't take it as what it says, though, and that's how we end up with people who don't beleive in the rapture and other false doctrines. Isn't it interested that Daniel prophesied the exact date that the Messiah would come to be cut off, yet the Jews still missed it? Then, Jesus rebuked the Jews of his day for not knowing the signs of the times. We need to not be like thoses Jews, but true Bible believers who strive to understand the rapture.

The Bible says that in the tribulation, those who "endure to the end will be saved". Hmmm, sounds like a different dispensation to me. No one is saved through endurance now. The elect won't be saved through endurance then becuase they won't be there, and it's a different stage in God's masterplan.

It's important to understand, however, that as we discuss this truth of the Word, we don;t let it become a stumbling block or something to divide believers by. Very much unlike the doctrines we are discussing in the "Can you loose your salvation" thread, this is something that we as Christians understand later in our walk with Chirst as we grow in Grace and doctrine, but although significant, it's not fundamental to salvation.

I do believe you are misunderstanding some verses. Let me clarify. I said that the CHURCH is not mentioned after Revelation for, not the elect. Christ has His own througouht different dispensations. Also please note that there are SEVEN raptures in the Bible, and the elect who have been saved during the tribulation that don't DIE for there faith, will be raptured at the end.

Also please note that I don't have time to run spell check or proofread any of my posts, or even have as much time as I would like to dwell on your posts so excuse me for any misunderstandings of your points thay I may make. Please make me aware of them if and when I do misunderstand your points:)

@Cowboy4Christ: I completely understand. I know perfectly well that we are supposed to be iron sharpening iron, and that is what I love about the Christian body. :) I realize that it was probably accidental, but it just seemed that your words were a little biting and belittling of a position you yourself don't hold. Please understand I say this in good faith. I saw the conversation as getting a little bit too heated (gaining a lack of brotherly love) and I was trying to cool the situation down. :)

Please let me explain my point. The Bible itself is not "shrouded" in mystery. The Bible is very clear about key doctrines and what is necessary to be saved. However, I think you can agree that people can come to different conclusions about certain points. You brought up the "can you lose your salvation thread." While I am fully convinced that one can never lose their salvation, I realize that verses can be brought up on both sides. The real question is in context and interpretation. With regards to the rapture, there are verses in its favor and verses against it (just look at all the books about Revelation). We see the same passage, but come to different conclusions. The Bible, in this specific passage, is a bit mysterious. You say that it is completely at face value. Your position might be, but another Christian might say "God revealed through His Word that there WILL be a rapture." What is absolutely certain and obvious for some might be heresy to others (think of the Pharisees). I agree that Revelation is not a "fairy-tale," but a true and future event. The question comes in whether there will be a pre-trib rapture, a mid-trib rapture, a pre-wrath rapture, and post-trib rapture, or no rapture at all. Each position has adherents who can say with certainty that they are right, but they each look at the same passage. God reveals His truths through His word, but sometimes He doesn't say explicitly every detail about every topic. That is what I am trying to get at.

Once again, please don't think me at all a heretic or anything. I am just trying to present in words what I am thinking at the moment. :)

@ C4C, I'm wondering where you get seven raptures in the bible?

@jimmy Waters: I agree, you made a good point, people can hold different positions–BUT–only ONE of them is right. Just like in the can you loose your salvation thread, one side is Biblical, the other ain't! I can say that Jesus is the only way to heaven, and someone else can say there are many ways. We both can argue are points, but at the end of the day one side is right, and one is wrong.

I don't have time to explain in detail at this moment, and that's a subject I don't want to take lightly. However, here's a quick YouTube video that sheds some like on the subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2W7W9dCrOY

The Bible clearly states that we are SAVED FROM GOD'S WRATH. The object of the Tribulation is to show GOD's WRATH. But the Bible says we are SAVED from that! This also has a LOT to do with our "can you loose your salvation" discussion. I see some there, who are misunderstanding the BIble and taking verses that refer to the Tribulation period that say you CAN loose your salvation, and applying those to use NOW. In the tribulation, he who endures to the end will be saved, and it also says you can loose/gain your salvation there, etc! Most common Bible missunderstandings also stem from the ignorance of the difference between the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of heaven. Let me introduce two basic Bible interpretation rules that I think we all could benifit from, and if we all put into practice we wouldn't need to have much of a conversation here. 1. Context, context, context. Who's being talked to, what dispensation is it for, etc. 2. If things are different, they're not the same. Wow! I'm a GURU! Yeah! No, really, if we all understood that we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I agree, Cowboy4Christ! That is why I think we, like the Bereans, need to test everything out with Scripture. I personally believe that there will be a rapture, but I also see a need to investigate each theory of the rapture impartially and then test it against God's Word. I think that is definitely what we are doing here, and that is why I love Memverse. :)

There will be a rapture… 1st Thes 4 clearly states that… I don't believe in a so called "Secret Rapture", in fact, I think what's in Thes. is quite a loud rapture!

So, is it eschatology? I'm really not into debating this topic, because it's kinda divisive and it's not really a crux issue of Christianity. (Unless you believe something really weird! ;))

Here's an interesting quote:
"I used to be a post mil, then I became an A mil, now I'm a pre-mil… Today, I know I was wrong twice!" (Sorry, but I just HAD to put that one down!)

I agree with you Jordan, here are some other verses that describe the rapture. Matthew 22:34-44, Luke 17:26-36, & Acts 1:6-11.

Thanks guys, and good ponts ya'll have. I agree that what we believe about the end times doesn't have to do with our salvation, but it's still VERY important. We can be robed of our HOPE in Christ when we let people redefine our terms and try to explain away the truths of the Word such as the immenant rapture of the Church that Christians have always believed. Encouraging post about the Bereans too brother!

Would you care to provide some support for the statement that all Christians have always believed that the Church will be secretly raptured before a 7-year tribulation?

According to my sources…that was not a major view in the church at all until the 20th century. There were some people who believed that Jesus would return before establishing His kingdom on earth for a 1000 years throughout the Church's history. But I think you'd be very hard-pressed to find any evidence of widespread support for your "seven-fold rapture" idea, along with the supposedly "CLEAR" 7-year tribulation period.

Also… about Christians always being saved from God's wrath (and thus not having to endure the tribulation), what do you do with Romans 1 then? Romans 1 says that God demonstrates His wrath by giving sinful men up to their sinful desires. This is evidenced through immorality, sodomy, as well as many other despicable sins, according to that chapter. We are clearly undergoing God's wrath in America right now with all of the traditional, biblical values that are being thrown out even among conservative circles. How is it that Christians are allowed to live during these times? Shouldn't we have been raptured a long time ago, if we weren't ever supposed to endure God's wrath?

I completely agree with Jordan! :) And 1st Thess. 4 came to mind when I first saw this! ;)
Also the passage in Matthew 24…

He has a good point about the "secret rapture" heresy. Of course it won't be secret, it will be a MESS after the rapture. There will be millions holes in the ground, there will be blood and clothes where ever believer was when the rapture happened, but Hollywood and the newsmedia is already preparing the masses for this event, creating movies that are so close to this it's scary. The un-informed masses will just believe it was an alien abduction or something of the sort.

What do you mean, Cowboy4Christ, by "blood and clothes"? I have heard of the "clothes left behind" idea (like in the Left Behind series), but what do you mean by blood? Also, what do you mean by holes? I am only asking for clarification. This is a new perspective I have not heard before. :)

Sorry to jump into this thread like this, but I couldn't help but wonder if you really meant that Christians suffer God's wrath, or if I just misunderstood your post.

“God’s wrath, in Scripture, is his holy and just indignation against sin. Rom 1.” (Webster's).
“Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.” (Hebrews)

If God’s wrath is his indignation against sin (John 3:36, Ro. 1:16-18, Eph. 5:6, Col. 3:5-6, ), and, as believers, God does not remember our sin (Ps. 103:12, Jer. 31:34, Heb. 8:12, 10:17), then it follows that believers cannot be the recipients of God’s wrath. We label believers as “saved”. What are we saved from? The wrath of God. “And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.” (1 Thess. 1:10). “For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ” (1Thess. 5:9).
That’s a good thing, because no one can stand up to God’s wrath: “But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.” (Jer. 10:10). “But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap” (Mal. 3:2). “Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty. Therefore shall all hands be faint, and every man's heart shall melt: And they shall be afraid: pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them; they shall be in pain as a woman that travaileth: they shall be amazed one at another; their faces shall be as flames. Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible. I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir. Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it. Their bows also shall dash the young men to pieces; and they shall have no pity on the fruit of the womb; their eye shall not spare children.” (Is. 13:6-18).
This passage refers to “the day of the Lord”. Believers will have been raptured from the earth to heaven before the day of the Lord; we will not undergo this! I believe a common cause of confusion on this subject arises from a lack of distinction between “the day of the Lord” (i.e. “day of Christ”), which is when Christ shall return to earth with the saints, stand on the mount of olives, and afterwards bring in the new earth and new Jerusalem, beginning the millennial kingdom, as opposed to when Christ shall meet us in the air—not returning completely to earth—in the rapture. These are two separate and distinct events. Let’s examine some verses:
A Bible search for “day of the Lord” has 29 results. They speak of a “terrible”, “dreadful”, “cloudy” day of “destruction”, “vengeance”, “alarm”, “anger”, “terrors”, “battle”, etc. Here are a few examples:

Isa 2:12 “For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:”
Isa 13:9 “Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.”
Ezek 13:5 “Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.”
Ezek 30:3 “For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.”
Joel 1:15 “Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.”
Joel 2:1 “Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;”
Joel 2:11 “And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?”
Amos 5:18 “Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.”
Obad 1:15 For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.”
Zeph 1:18 “Neither their silver nor their gold shall be able to deliver them in the day of the LORD'S wrath; but the whole land shall be devoured by the fire of his jealousy: for he shall make even a speedy riddance of all them that dwell in the land.”
Zeph 2:3 “Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.”
2Pet 3:10 “But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.”

I'll have to end this post here with the day of the Lord and outline the day Christ will meet us in the air in a future post as I'm running out of time. Thanks for reading! (Sorry for the lengthy post; I'm trying to write concisely, yet back up my points with more than sufficient scripture.)

Just to clarify, I'm not saying at all that we won't go through tough trials; as 2 Peter 3 says, "all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution". Christians always have been and always will be persecuted, but not by God!

Thanks for the honest question. It's great to see people asking HONEST questions without an agenda. Here on MemVerse, (I think I can speak for most of us here), our goal is to discuss things not in a way to build ourselves up, prove our point, etc., but to focus on Christ and all grow in Grace and knowledge as we learn from one another. I myself am sort of writing that as a "note to self" also, as I don't think I ask enough questions and I apologize if I've ever misunderstood one's view because of that. I also would like to note that I have learned a lot from all of you here on MemVerse. Thank you for sharpening me as iron sharpens iron.

As for as the imminent rapture of the Church that Christians have always believed in and is taught clearly in the Bible, here are just some of the basics of how it's going to take place as found in Scripture. I figured it would be worthwhile to take the time to write everything out, because I could be wrong in assuming you understand some other basics, just as I assumed the blood, clothes and holes in the ground were something every believer knew. :)

The rapture is a future event, and it's the next event on God's timetable. Christians have always believed that the rapture could happen at any moment, but only now is the stage totally set–nothing more is needed to happen before this will take place–it could happen at any moment now for the first time in history.

Here are some of the major passages in the Bible speaking directly of the rapture:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-18: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words."

1 Corinthians 15:49-55: "And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"

Although the actual word "rapture" does not appear in the english Bible, it's the term we use to describe the "catching up" of believer's in the Bible. The word in the Greek here is "harpazo", which literally means: "to seize (in various applications):–catch (away, up), pluck, pull, take (by force)". So although the actual word "rapture" is not in the Bible, but neither is the word "trinity" or even the word "Bible". It's just the word that has come in our language to describe the truths of Christ's bride being caught up with Him in the air.

The rapture will be no "secret" event. First, there will be a flash of lightning: Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."

When there's lightning, what always follows? THUNDER! Job 37:1-4: "At this also my heart trembleth, and is moved out of his place. Hear attentively the noise of his voice, and the sound that goeth out of his mouth. He directeth it under the whole heaven, and his lightning unto the ends of the earth. After it a voice roareth: he thundereth with the voice of his excellency; and he will not stay them when his voice is heard." John 12:28-29: "Father, glorify thy name. Then came there a voice from heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. The people therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it thundered: others said, An angel spake to him."

A trumpet blast will accompany the thunder: 1 Corinthians 15:52: "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

As this is taking place, every born again Christian who is clothed in God's righteousness will here his name called, followed by: "come up hither". John 10:3: "To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out." Revelation 4:1: "After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

The dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16: "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:" Thus explains the holes in the ground. I don't see how this could be any easier to understand or more straightforward–the Scripture makes this very clear. Out of the oceans, battlefields, graveyards, the bodies of believers will rise in a glorified state. I can just see in my mind's eye the look on an unsaved cemetery keepers face the day after the rapture:)

We'll meet the dead believers with Christ in the air. 1 Thessalonians 4:17: "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." We will transformed in the twinkling of an eye be caught up, (raptured) and join the dead in Christ and millions of other believers with Christ in the air. It's going to be awesome to meet you guys I've talked to on MemVerse in the air someday! We will loose our blood as our bodies are glorified. 1 Corinthians 15:50: "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." Luke 24:39: "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." Once again, the Bible is pretty straightforward to those who believe it as far as the clothes and blood. (As far as the clothes, I'm assuming most of us will be dressed when this takes place:). When sharing the gospel with an unbeliever once, the topic of the rapture came up. As I was explaining it to him just as I am to you, when we got to this point he said: "You sure believe a bloody religion". I responded: "You said that right, my religion is focused on the blood–the blood of Christ that covers my sins".

I could go on and on all day about the amazing truths of the Word involving the rapture here, like where believers will go following it, etc, but that's a topic for another day:) I'd like to close on this thought, notice how in the two major passages reffering to the rapture they end like this: 1 Thessalonians 4:18: "Wherefore comfort one another with these words." 1 Corinthians 15:55: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" I'd like to note that when we let false prophets and teachers try to explain away these truths, we are robbed of our HOPE in CHRIST. We know that following the rapture is a 7 year tribulation. When Daniel saw his 70 weeks vision in Daniel 10:8, here was his response: "Therefore I was left alone, and saw this great vision, and there remained no strength in me: for my comeliness was turned in me into corruption, and I retained no strength." The men also that were with Daniel began to quake and fled and hid because of how WILD it's going to be during the tribulation! (Daniel 10:7). Christians as a whole today have lost perspective of just how powerful God is, and shock and awe that will follow His wrath. The purpose of the Tribulation is God's wrath and judgment. In the first 3 1/2 years the anti-Christ, (A catholic pope), will rule the known WORLD in seemingly world peace, initiate the mark of the beast, etc. In the last 3 1/2 years (the GREAT Tribulation) we read of God turning the waters to blood, millions dying at a time, a star called wormwood hitting the earth and killing means, the seals and trumpets of God's wrath, etc. The Great tribulations is going to be un-imaginable! The Bible puts it into perspective: Matthew 24:21: "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." Anyone who has studied history has read of some amazing natural disasters, holocausts, etc–but this, will be worse than anything that ever will be! It will end in the Lord Jesus taking vengeance on them that no not God. (2nd Thessalonians 1:7-8), the battle of Armageddon, and those of us who have already been raptured coming back on white horses as Christ's army to set up the Millennial Kingdom. We are to comfort one another with the truths that we will are to be raptured before the tribulation takes place, (I Thessalonians 4:18), and that's the sole purpose of this post.

I would like to note that the seven raptures in the Bible would be something to discuss in another topic, but are of minor significance compared to the rapture of the Church. They include the rapture of the tribulation saints, Paul, the two witnesses, Enoch, etc.

To understand the truths of the rapture when we read to Bible, we must be honest with the text, and not try to twist verses to fit into preconceived denominational brackets. We also must believe that that the Bible is God's word, and understand that the Bible has NEVER been wrong in predicting future events, even those that were to happen hundreds of years later. That's what makes the Bible unique compared to other books. Let's just pause for a minute on that thought…isn't that AWESOME? We serve an AMAZING God!

I think that these verses settle it for any Bible believing individual that takes the Bible as what it says. I'm looking forward to more discussion on this with you all, but let's refrain from any more mockery and personal attacks in this conversation. If anyone disagrees with me on this, I hope that that disagreement would based on how they interpret the Bible differently, and show sufficient verses to back that up…not disagreeing just because of what your Grandma believes or what you read in a Calvin or Spurgeon commentary–Let's stay focused on God's Word. May the Lord bless you all richly as you continue to study His Word.

@Cowboy4Christ:

I don't really understand how you get the holes in the ground and blood and clothes or whatever from that verse… can you further explain to me?

I am still studying and thinking about the end times… Dispensationalist view vs. New Covenant view. It seems to me like there will be a rapture, just what I get from reading the Bible as a Christian who is searching for truth and is not very learned in theological matters! :) but other than that, I don't understand how we can get from the Bible the specific details about when the Rapture will happen like pre-tribulation or the other views… I just don't think it's very clear in the Bible which is probably why there's so much discussion and division about the matter. I don't think anyone is 100% right about everything, there are some things that God chooses not to reveal to us. I am sure if He showed us everything, our minds would explode (as Pastor says:)). anyways, just seeking the truth…. I also wanted to tell everyone how much I appreciate these discussions here on memverse… I am sure God is more than happy to see his children sharpening each other as iron sharpens iron!

@AngelC:

Thanks for the post! I agree that we all see through a glass darkly, (1 Corinthians 13:12), but we also must grow as Christians and not remain as carnal babes, but still clinging to childlike faith.

As far as the fact that there will be a rapture of the Church, and it could happen any moment–you're right, God has made that very clear. The holes in the ground are a matter of opinion, although a Scripturally based, logical, and an opinion backed by centuries of acceptance. We know that the dead in Christ will rise, and the corpses will be transformed and no longer in the coffin. Logically, there's gotta be a hole for them to come up. However, there's also the view that takes into account the truths that we can pass through solid objects in our glorified bodies, and a case can be made for that. Either way, the bodies will RISE, and I can see both cases can be made Scripturally, like you said, God hasn't revealed everything to us but He has given us what we need to know–the dead in Christ will "rise".

As far as the blood, the Bible clearly states in first Corinthians that flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. We read in Revelation that we will neither hunger nor thirst in our glorified bodies. It it very clear that we will not have blood in our glorified bodies, and the blood will be left when we're taken up to meet Christ in the air in the rapture. This is pretty straightforward in Scripture–it would be hard to refute.

Concerning the ridiculous views of anyone challenging a Biblical pre-tribulation rapture, that's just not what the Bible clearly states. The Bible says why there is so much discussion on the matter in 2 Peter 2:1: "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." and in 2 Peter 3:3: "Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts," We're in the last days now, and seeing this happen before our eyes as Scripture warned. The Bible clearly teaches of a PRE-tribulation rapture, and anyone challenging that is not being honest with themselves and Scripture, or simply hasn't followed the commandment in 2nd Timothy 2:15 and hasn't studied to show himself approved. The purpose of the tribulation period, also known as Daniels 70th week, will be 7 years long, the last 3 1/2 years known as the GREAT tribulation will be were God pours out his wrath and judgment and the seven seals and vials. Anyone who thinks they can survive the tribulation must have a pretty weak God. The power of God is going to be so amazing that the Bible states it will be worse than anything that has ever happened. Beloved, the power of God is something we can't even fathom. I believe that if we knew exactly what is going to happen in the great tribulation, our minds would explode as you stated. Hollywood's best horror movies don't hold a candle to how it's going to be during the tribulation. The Bible clearly states that we are saved from the wrath of God, and it's just ridiculous to say that Christians will be in the tribulation period. We know that the Church will be removed before the appearing of the antiChrist, (2nd Thessalonians 2) and Jeremiah 30:7 makes it VERY clear: "Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it." There is not even ONE verse stating we will be in the tribulation, and the Church is not mentioned during the tribulation (time of Jacob's trouble) …and as you see, there are passages clearly stating we will be saved from it! Furthermore, a pre-tribulation rapture has been accepted throughout Christian history and is something God has made very clear to anyone with the faith to believe what he says in His word. The errounous claims of the New Covenant view are just as the name implies: a "new" view that is clearly not in my King James Bible.

Hey Cowboy 4 Christ, mind toning it down a bit, buddy? You talk about the Bible as if we are supposed to just read it and immediately understand and comprehend what we are reading. I think it takes time and meditation on the word to fully understand what God is teaching us. I think if there are so many different views of certain passages in the bible, that these areas are definitely gray, not black and white. Also, I don't believe my view is ridiculous, rather through my study of the Word, I saw what I thought was there, a post-tribulation rapture. I have a question for you. What is God doing about our brothers and sisters that are in different countries such as India, China, and the Middle East. They are suffering horrible torments, yet why hasn't God come down on his clouds and freed them? God allows the Church to go through persecution because it strengthens them and draws out the true believers. Just look at these mega-churches in America today. They pervert the Word saying there is no Hell and that everyone goes to Heaven, or that God only sees your good and not your sin. I believe that that is twisted doctrine and I believe that if the tribulation were to began right now, everyone one of those pastors would deny Christ. I also believe that the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine is twisted. Now don't take me wrong I'm not calling your beliefs ridiculous and I'm not saying that you are ignoring clear biblical principles, I merely see a different meaning of the rapture in my bible. Back to the talk on the persecuted believers. I think God will allow us Christians to endure the tribulation for my reason stated earlier: persecution strengthens us as a body. It shows you who is truly dedicated to the Lord. Jesus said that whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for Jesus's sake will find it (eternal life). Do you want all Christians to be raptured because you are afraid of the tribulation? It is a blessing to die for Christ and those who abide in Christ have no fear. I'm not really sure what I meant by this post. Maybe to show you a reason God will allow His people to endure the tribulation? Whatever the cause to God be the glory and I would appreciate if you would stop reffering to everything you believe is found in the Bible as "clear truth".

@SoulWinner:

None of you all here on memverse understand C4C. he was merely trying to get the point across what he believes and why he believes it, and that he's not wavering from it. Guess that's just the cowboy in him……. :):)

@Cowboy4Christ:

thank you for explaining those things for me. I think I believe in the rapture… it makes a lot of sense just reading from the Bible. But what is the tribulation period for? if the believers are taken up before-hand, why does it matter if the wicked go through a tribulation before they get thrown into hell or not? what do you think the result will be from the tribulation?

also, I don't think the view is called "new covenant" because it is new, but because they believe that the new covenant replaces the old one.

p.s. this is not a dispute or a challenge, just seeking knowledge. I am willing to be corrected. To be honest, I don't really know much about different views, that's why I'm asking you these questions. :) if you come over Friday maybe we can talk about this more..

The way he gets his point across though…It's not blatantly there in the Bible saying there is going to be a pre-trib rapture, or there is going to be a post-trib. It's obviously not because me and him believe differently. I would appreciate if he would stop being so derogative of other brothers and sisters in Christ, because no one said anything to offend him, I think…You obviously know him better then I do so think you for sort of clearing that up :)

yeah.. I don't think any of us know exactly how everything's going to happen in the end times, or that it really even matters a lot, I mean views on the end times are so irrelevant compared to God's grace! all of us believers believe and know that Christ died and suffered in our place, was buried, and rose again on the third day!! happy Easter by the way, everyone! I think we should celebrate his resurrection EVERY day.

yes, C4C and I know each other very well ;)

Atta’ girl Angel C! ;)

@SoulWinner:

Upon reading my post multiple times, I couldn't find anything that was derogative towards anyone. Your post was actually the only one in the thread that was even bordering that. You called my beliefs that are backed by my King James Bible and centuries of acceptance "twisted". I on the other hand, don't think you are purposely trying to twist anything purposely, although you seem misled and confused.

I agree with what Angel C said as far as end times doctrine not being as important as the gospel, but if we interpret the Bible the way you do SoulWinner, we make God a liar, we make the Bible errant, and we mock God's Holy just and righteous character by calling him a wife–beater. (We're His bride, he's the one executing judgement in the tribulation), and we are robbed of our HOPE. Also, we're clearly not following the commandment in 2nd Timothy to study to show ourselves approved unto God. Your statement concerning people going through persecution right now in China is very irrelevant, and I would encourage you to read the passages in the Bible concerning the tribulation period. I believe your misunderstanding here results from being taught doctrines contrary to scripture concerning the tribulation period.

During the tribulation period, God will release seven vials of judgement upon the earth. In just ONE of those SEVEN judgments, God will kill 25% of the people on this earth! Now that's real shock and awe! That's just ONE of the SEVEN judgments! If that happened right now, that would be 1.5 BILLION people DEAD. You stated the tribulation will strengthen our bodies. If your definition of strengthening is DEATH, then I agree with you.

Let's look at some passages in the Bible regarding the tribulation period.

Isaiah 2:17-19 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day. And the idols he shall utterly abolish. And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Jeremiah 30:6-7 Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness? Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.

Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

My dear friend, do you know see that the power of our Almighty God, the Alpha and Omega, Who is so amazing that this is not going to be like the persecuted Church in China as you mentioned? This is going to be worse then anything that has ever happened or ever will happen the Bible says, and as you mentioned there have been some horrible things that have happened–just look at the crusades for example! We're talking grown men hiding in rocks like babies, the water turning to BLOOD the sun no longer shining, the earth shaking a star (wormwood) coming down and wiping out millions, and WHY? Christ is showing His holy WRATH. The Bible states that we are not appointed to wrath. As believers, we are saved from this. Now let me quickly deal with all the verses saying there will be believers during the tribulation: –Wait, there are none. And as if all the verses that have been mentioned in this thread aren't enough, as if just understanding the very nature of God isn't enough, here's something for you to consider: believers are not mentioned from Revelation 4 through 19 when it's talking about the tribulation period. I wonder why? Wait, they're gone, and praise the Lord for that!

Eunice Sophia: I realized that you deleted your post. I think there might have been misunderstanding (due to a lack of wisdom on my part).
My previous post had nothing to do with you or your post. I should have posted on a different thread… I am so sorry! Will you please forgive me! I will try to be more considerate when posting.

Thank you for your kind consideration Princess Cowgirl. I wouldn't necessarily mean that you should have posted that message elsewhere but that, you were a bit more clearer. Anyway for now, Its fine and understood. Please don't feel bad. Jesus, God of peace has forgiven us.

I shall try to post the comment I deleted at first after a while.

If anyone reading this seriously denies a pre-tribulation rapture, I'd like to ask how you explain that Christians would be subject to the wrath of God when the Bible clearly states we are SAVED from the wrath of God? My friends, it is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. If you could maybe give an example or a verse of a believer subject to the wrath of God, that'd be great!

I believe pre -tribulation… but I have questions.
I have often wondered how Matthew 24 fit into the pre-tribulation idea. Isn't Jesus talking about Christens in the great tribulation in this chapter?

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then they will deliver you up to TRIBULATION and KILL you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.” Matthew 24:8-14

If you are willing to answer my questions please be patient with me and don’t just tell me “You don’t read your bible right.” True, I may not understand everything I read but I’m not completely unintelligent. (1 Corinthians 2:2)

I think, Princess Cowgirl, that the chapter to which you are referring is talking about tribulation, or persecution, in general. Regardless about what you believe regarding the Rapture or the Great Tribulation, it is undeniable that many, if not most, of the world's Christians are suffering a form of persecution. False prophets have certainly arisen, and they have led many astray. I think that the chapter is talking about the future of the Church broadly ("the gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world," for instance, seems to support this). Just my $0.02.

What do you think?

Ranch4 Christ did explain the difference between the day of the Lord and the day of the Christ well.

Cowboy4Christ, I believe what you said about the pre-tribulation rapture of the Church. That was a neat explanation.

According to the book of Revelation, the Church will not be there during the Great Tribulation period on the earth. (4:1 – ‘Come up hither’ ).

Its only when the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way (the Church too) that Wicked, man of sin be revealed. (2 Thess 2:7-8).

Reading through 1 Thessalonians we get the picture on the day of Christ and 2 Thessalonians on the day of the Lord.

Surely the great day of his wrath will be terrible. (Rev 6:15-17 –15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?)

I think there are some clarifications to be done:

1 You said at the time of rapture there will be a flash of lightning (from the east to the west) according to Matt 24:27. But I think the context here is Jesus was explaining to them about Jacob’s trouble and the Day of the Lord ie Immediately after the Tribulation.
But surely as the Scripture states in 1 Thess 4:16, “For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:” it will be like a Thunder.

2 You said there will be blood, holes and clothes left behind. Regarding the holes, its fine according to Matt 27:52 –the graves were opened; and so with the clothes supported with the verse, Luke 24:12 – the linen clothes laid by themselves. But I wouldn’t find any explanation about the blood. In the light of the verse 1 Corinthians 15:52(b) – for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible and we shall be CHANGED. In all the 7 raptures about which you previously mentioned, there is none whatsoever that has any mention of blood being left.

What do say CowboyforChrist?

(This is the post that was deleted then)

There is no way I would argue with someone about when the tribulation and rapture will be or who will be there when it all happens. To be honest the more I study all this pre-trib/post-trib stuff the more I think I don’t know… but God dose and when it happens I’M GOING! :)

I think the church will probably go though a lot more cleansing before the rapture. Tribulation is a form of God’s cleaning. But I also believe that christens will be spared from God's wrath. You know how the Children of Israel in Egypt went through half of the plagues but the other half God kept them separate (Exodus 11:7)? That’s how I think it might be with the tribulation. But I don’t know and couldn’t prove it.

Thank you for your reply. That makes sense to me.

Ranch4Christ, may I correct your reference "Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." as 2 Timothy 3:12 and not 2 Peter 3 ?
I agree your statement that followed this verse.

Princess Cowgirl,
Cowboy4Christ has neatly explained the pre-tribulation rapture when he replied as the Church is not appointed unto wrath.
Rev 3:10 - Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Romans 11:25-27
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

The order of events:
1.The Rapture of the Church (2 Thess 2:7; 1 Thess 4:14-17)

1. Manifestation of lawless one (2 Thess 2:8-10; Dan 7:8; 9:27; Matt 24:15; Rev 18:2-10)
2. The coming of Christ in glory and the destruction of the lawless one(2 Thess 2:8; Rev 19:11-21).

Until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in - then rapture takes place.
In Great Tribulation, there is God's remnant - 144000 sealed in Israel (Rev 7:1-8) + a great multitude from all nations (Rev 7:9-17).
This great multitude that will come from Great Tribulation is different from that of the Church (Rev 5:9).

The greater lesson of the second epistle of Thessalonians is to let the mysteries and the glories of the future only lead on to a watchful and diligent discharge of present duty. The teaching corresponds with that of Christ Himself, Mt 24:45,46 Luke 12:42,43.

May I be corrected if I misinterpreted anything. Please back up with sufficient Scripture.

I have nothing to correct you on with scripture. There is no scripture that says EXACTLY when the rapture and tribulation are going to take place (Matt 24:36-44). But it is clear that all these things WILL happen!
If your trying to say that tribulations don’t happen to christens, I have to disagree (Romans 5:3).

For the sake of discussion… Couldn’t the order of events go something like this:

1. Tribulations come (Mark 13:19) and false prophets arise (Mark 13:21-22; Matt 24:11)
2. Rapture of the Church (Mark 13:27; 1 Thess 4:14-17)
3. Manifestation of lawless one accompanied by the pouring out of God’s wrath (2 Thess 2:8-10; Dan 7:8; 9:27; Matt 24:15; Rev 18:2-10)
4. The coming of Christ and destruction of the lawless one (Rev 19:11-21)

I am still prayerfully studying all these things.
Sometimes I wonder if those of us who hold strongly to pre-trib (myself included) just don’t like the idea of tribulations happening to us. (I’m talking about the purifying of the Church, NOT the poring out of God’s wrath.)
God bless your studies!

Sorry, I think I need to correct myself: Mark 13:27 is referring to the elect that come out of the Great Tribulation, not the Church.

Matt 24:36-44 actually belongs to times in great tribulation. But the warnings apply to the present times too.
Just as in the times of Noah, the ungodly were wiped out so shall it be at the time of Christ's second coming (36 -41vs).

Am not saying that tribulations don't happen to Christians, in the light of these verses and also primarily because our Master suffered so shall His every true disciple face [1 John 3:1(b)].
Matthew 5:10-12 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

John 16:33 - These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.

1 Peter1:6-7 - Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Ephesians 5:25(b)-27 - even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; 26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

But this is NOT Great Tribulation.

So lets omit the verse of Mark 13:19 from the first point you said in the order of the events. The warning of Jesus in Matt 24:11 apply as we connect it with the verses Acts 20:28-32 ; 2 Peter 2:1; 1 John 2:18,19; 1 Tim 4:1; 2 Tim 3:1-5.

Order of the events then:

1. The working of the mystery of lawlessness under divine restraint which had already begun in the apostle's time (2 Thess 2:7)
2. The apostasy of the professing church(2 Tim 3:1-8; 2 Thess 2:3)
3. The Rapture of the Church (2 Thess 2:7; 1 Thess 4:14-17)
4. Manifestation of lawless one (2 Thess 2:8-10; Dan 7:8; 9:27; Matt 24:15; Rev 18:2-10)
5. The coming of Christ in glory and the destruction of the lawless one(2 Thess 2:8; Rev 19:11-21).

Hope its clear now.
I'm studying too Princess Cowgirl. Also at any point if I am wrong, I would welcome correction according to HIS Word.