Star Wars and the Question of The Line

In case you haven't heard, a new Star Wars movie just came out, and most of the country is talking about it. :) This brings up the question, how should we, as Christians, respond to Star Wars?
And before we give a blanket, 'can or can't go see it' answer, let's dive into the logic behind it. Some people say that Star Wars is an excellent analogy to the gospel story, some say that it is nothing but New Age religion, and others fall somewhere in the middle. Does Star Wars have enough good qualities which out weigh the bad, or is there too many bad parts to go see it?

Which brings up the general question: where is the line?
No movie or show is perfect. (not even Veggie Tales) So where do we draw our line? At one bad word? Two? Fifteen? Does historical/place accuracy (aka soldiers or sailors) have any influence in this?
What about violence? Does intensity matter? What about actually seeing it? Many shows have where the camera pans away right before you actually see it, and then there is also the Alderaan violence, where you know millions of people die, but you don't see it. How do those two factor in?
And how much does the quality of the movie factor into both of these considerations? Obviously we are not going to go see a cussing, violent movie that has no redeeming value at all. If the show has an excellent message and themes, are we willing to forgive it for more than other movies?
Obviously there are several other considerations, but these will probably get us started. Some of these questions may seem very obvious, but I want us to truly think about our rational behind our decisions. As we get older, we have more and more decision in what we put before our eyes. As an adult, the criteria "mom said I am allowed to watch this, but not that" will not serve us very well. So, it is good to fully comprehend our worldview and decision-making process toward movies.

warning if you have not yet seen TFA, there will most likely be spoilers as we discuss this. Even if we're really good at not mentioning names, we will still have to resort to saying "x sacrifices himself by pretending to be Y, thus saving Y's life, although X doesn't even like Y." So when a character shows up on screen who matches the criteria of X, you'll know he is going to die, and thus enjoy the movie less. (note none of that actually happens in the movie, I promise. I made up the farthest thing from what actually happens as I could think of) So, if you are planning on seeing and enjoying TFA, be very wary reading through these comments.

Anyway, I have my own views on all these questions, which you may or may not eventually hear, but in the mean time, what do you all think?

Obviously, the first Scripture that comes to mind is Philippines 4:8: "Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of respect, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if something is excellent or praiseworthy, think about these things." One question to ask about a movie is whether it will have a negative effect on your thoughts. The answer to that question will be different for each person. What causes one person to think bad thought may not have any effect on another person.
Another question to ask is whether your watching a movie will cause others to stumble (1 Cor. 8:13). Watching a movie about with some bad words in it may have no effect on you, but it may cause another weaker Christian or a non-Christian to think that Christians have no problem with bad words. If watching Star Wars will make people think you are okay with New Age philosophy (I don't think it will), then you shouldn't watch it.
Some people struggle with keeping their language clean. In that case, watching a movie with bad words in it will have a detrimental effect on that person. If a movie will cause you to dwell on bad words, then I don't believe you should watch it. If a movie will cause a close friend to stumble, then you might also consider not watching it for your friend's sake. The same goes for violence. If a movie will cause you to dwell on violent thoughts, don't watch it. As for redeeming qualities, if a movie causes you to think bad thoughts, then no redeeming qualities will be worth much. If a movie causes you to think about those redeeming qualities, then it may actually be beneficial.
I don't think a clear line can be drawn between good movies and bad movies. Movies may affect different people in different ways. I haven't seen the new Star Wars, so I can't offer any thoughts specifically on that. These are my thoughts regarding movies in general. I'm still young and inexperienced, so I may be totally wrong.

I think this is a helpful article on Star Wars: http://www.ligonier.org/blog/star-wars-ancient-religion/

That is a good article. I like how it shows how one can turn a conversation about Star Wars (a common topic in American culture) into a conversation about world views, which ultimately leads to a conversation about God.

I would advise you not to read the book of Judges. just trust me, it will turn you in to one terrible person. :P

Star Wars is good. I've had lost of people compare me to all sorts of Star Wars Characters: Darth Vader, Darth Mall, General Grievous… I don't even have to watch it to know its cool!

But in light of being more serious… Because Art, Literature, Music, (or in this case Movies) reflect the makers and their relation with God (or the lack there of) and since as people they are made in the image of God (who is good) We can Expect Something in it to be seen as good in some way.
But good could mean anything; from Good cinematography and CGI, to good vs evil, forgiveness, being confidant, enjoying life, or maybe even “True love” (although generally it really means means “lets be st*pid”). But obviously the elephant in the room is the force, and what to do with it.

The light and dark Forces could be interpreted as God vs Satan, but is that what the authors intended and is that consistent with the story as a whole? If you look at the Jedi code, no. It might have good concepts in it, but it's not consistent with its self let alone any teaching found in the Bible. AND THE JEDI ARE SUPOSED TO BE THE GOOD GUYS!!! Not to mention that Light and Dark force are not inherently good or bad, or that the Sith originated as dark Jedi who just fell out of favor.

Personally a story that has Spaceships+Energy Swords+Dark Creepy People Vs. Happy Smiley People+Alians+Controversial Fan Lore, Now that is a story I would really enjoy, But do I really want to entertain myself with subtle false teachings and worldly philosophies? Nope, not really.
That dose not mean I think watching it is a SIN (I might watch it someday I don't know). But I do consider bumper stickers that say things like 'may the force be with you … and Jesus is his name' to be mixing the Holy with what is…. umm… no so holy, and that is sketchy ground.

Oh no! It's too late. I already read it. Now I can't look at a jawbone with thinking about killing a thousand people.

^or a tent stake…^ This is a scary world my friend.

As I was reading your post, someone said, "Nailed it!" Now I'll never be able to listen to that expression the same way again.

;D LOL

I don't mean to troll but would one of the admins please delete the delete button.

Hello. Welcome to Memverse. I'm Sam, one-time King, and more recently I'm the Dead King of these Forums. Good idea with bringing Star Wars to the discussion: it's always interesting and helpful to discuss pop culture with fellow Christians. :)

When it comes to the story itself Star Wars is, at a macro level, no different from any other fantasy story. It has swords, projectile weapons, interesting creatures, a vibrant history, and a long-standing clash between the forces of good and evil. Whether or not you will choose to allow yourself to take it in is the same basic choice as you would make when choosing whether or not to read/watch Narnia or the Lord of the Rings. There is good to be learned from the stories, but the medium of the lessons and how it relates to your own conscience is where the rub lies.

You can learn good lessons from anything. But the medium of delivery and how it lines up with your own beliefs is what determines whether it would be right or wrong for you to take it in. Something I've been learning.

I remember the words of the Apostle Paul, when he said "all things are lawful, but not all things edify". And Philippians 4:8 also comes to mind. The people you interact with also should have an influence, because others will see the media that you choose and make their own conclusions based on that. "Would I be able to explain to my 12-year-old younger brother why I'm watching/reading/playing this, and then go on to say why he can't do it in good conscience?" is a question I ask myself often.

Coming back to Star Wars, I understand the concerns that people have about the New Age philosophy behind "the Force", but one thing bothers me. We are so quick to rail against a group of people in a fictional world who use a fictional supernatural force to do fantastic things, but we're entirely fine with stories about a man who can fly, shoot lasers from his eyes, and is virtually indestructible.

It seems somewhat counter-intuitive to point at one fantasy story and claim that the superpowers being used there are derived from demons while totally ignoring another one, despite the fact that both are fictional stories not meant to indoctrinate the viewers or convert them to their ideologies.

The Force in and of itself (as it's presented in the lore) is, to me, one of the most fair depictions of a good thing that's twisted by even those with good intentions. The Force is itself amoral, and its power can be drawn on through emotion and willpower by those who are either good or evil. The Sith embrace their entire emotional spectrum without any regard for moderation, while the Jedi seek peace by trying to avoid the paths of all forms of negative emotion.

But both are flawed. And this is where the lore of the universe shines.

With all of it's flaws, the Expanded Universe of Star Was brought a lot of meat to the table when it came to showcasing the rest of the Star Wars universe and fleshing out the ideologies of all the groups shown in the stories. The most poignant of these is the story of the fall and redemption of Revan, a Jedi who fell to the Dark Side and was redeemed with the help of his wife later on. His story (and other about the founding of the Jedi Order) reveal that true power is found when there is a balance of both positive and negative emotion: neither forced abstinence nor overindulgence without restraint is the key to using all the power that the Force would allow. A balance of the two, a recognition of who you are and coming to grips with all of your emotions and intentions is what allowed Revan to fully utilize the Force, and he became one of the most powerful Jedi in existence.

Of course, the Jedi hated him for it. Spurning their traditions for a way of thinking that was so radical.

His story has some interesting parallels to the Christian life that I won't get into now, but the point is that the stories in Star Wars are never so black-and-white as to never point out the flaws inherent even in the good characters.

This is an area that a lot of fiction, and even Christian fiction, fails to grasp at.

When it comes down to the depiction of violence, I'm always a proponent of appropriate levels of violence for the appropriate story and target demographic. Different people have different tolerances for violence, and their age, station in life, and personal beliefs all play a large part in that. While a story may need to have graphic violence in order to fully carry out its story (see: The Passion of the Christ), the context of the story, the violence, and the people it is targeted towards all play a part in the "goodness" (I'm hesitant to use the word) of the violence in a story.

Personally, I wish that the Lord of the Rings movies were more violent, because they got close but not as close as I'd have liked to depicting the absolute horror of war that Tolkien tried to convey in his books. The commencement of Order 66 in Episode 3 of Star Wars is a good example of violence done right, in my opinion. It fit with the story, the overall themes, and without showing too much suffering the movie got the point across, and it legitimately made me cry. All in all, violence is another tool in the toolbox of the author, and it can be used to both good and bad effects, depending on how it is used.

Kind of like the Force. ;)

In case you haven't heard, a new Star Wars movie just came out, and most of the country is talking about it. :)

Hm. Not just that country… xP

Anyways, im not good at the debating stuff so I will now leave. I do think Star Wars is a good movie though i should really see the previous 6 also…

You can learn good lessons from _anything_.

You sure that's not just a tiny bit to general? what do you mean by learning?

"But the medium of delivery and how it lines up with your own beliefs is what determines whether it would be right or wrong for you to take it in."
So if i don't believe ecchi is wrong I can watch it all i want and have some good lessons to boot?

"Of course, the Jedi hated him for it." ^THERE IS NO EMOTION!!!^

Sorry, if I start a discussion I should probably keep up with it….

Anyway, you all have excellent points! One fact I would bring up in the Star Wars direction is how different the movies are. For example, sometimes the force is midiclorians (? I think that is how you spell it, I haven't actually watched the newer three), and the content of the new movie is often much cleaner, nicer than the other movies. (Think Jabba the Hut in Empire Strikes Back) How much does that factor in?

In another direction, it seems the general answer to the line question is ensuring your conscience is clear; however, are there ever any set boundaries, "I won't go see it if it has this" lines?

Also, how does the intent/worldview of the author factor in? Does it have immense difference in what you are willing to see if the author is a Christian/secular/or atheist?
Just want to get you all thinking, thanks for giving such great input already!

(Side note, I would disagree that Star Wars is inherently the same kind of fantasy story of LoTR and Narnia. My logic concerning those two has been that all the powers/magic represent spiritual powers, which we know do exist. Narnia, obviously, since the people with powers are Aslan (represent Jesus) and the witch, along with other wicked beings (which represent demons). While it is not as clearly obvious in LoTR, if you read the simirillian, all beings with power come from beings which clearly represent angels, and Tolkien too has his God figure (whose name escapes me at the moment) and his devil and demon figures (Melkor and balrogs). Anyone who has magical powers in Middle earth got it from one of these two, or in meddling with things they shouldn't have been. So, I feel Narnia/LoTR are different, because their magic represents the spiritual forces that we deal with in real life in a more tangible way.) Sorry, I just went very geeky on you…

Firstly, thank you for being geeky. It makes discussions a lot easier, trust me. I know where you'ee coming from, and I know the backstory for the world of Middle-Earth. The point I was trying to make though, is that in those worlds the people who have power have the power simply because of who they are. It's part of their natural world, just as the Force is in the Star Wars universe.

Also, the Force wasn't limited to midi-chlorians. That was a cool way of trying to explain it, but the Force is (in the Star Wars universe) a metaphysical source of energy that connects all living things. Or…most living things, anyways. Before the abolishing of the EU, the Yuzhang Vong were a race of aliens without midi-chlorians in their blood, so they were cut off from the Force and couldn't be affected my mind-based Force attacks. But I digress…

When it comes to Jabba the Hutt and Episode 6 in general, I don't really find it all that offensive, personally. He's a bad guy who does bad things, and captures girls and forces them to do bad things to please him. He gets his comeuppance in the end, from Leia nonetheless, and the movie doesn't try to glorify anything that he does, but it rather villlanizes it, showing that using other people for your own personal enjoyment is always a bad thing.

Content selection from a Christian perspective does depend on the content. If it blatantly and unashamedly promotes ideals that are against Christianity, then we shouldn't see it. But when the content has no blatant veneer of sinfulness, it can become harder to discern whether or not it would be right to consume. Then it is up the the individual and their own conscience. For example, I could recommend to you a few clean, wholesome anime that I love. But for some people, the fact that the medium of delivery of those stories is through anime would turn them off immediately, because to them the medium and the industry to which it belongs is inherently sinful, or might cause them to stumble. Is it wrong for me to enjoy anime? Is it wrong for them to dislike it? No. I'm following my own conscience, they're following theirs, and we're both bringing glory to God.

Now, does it matter whether the author of a story was a Christian or not? Depends on the literature. I'd rather read a science book from a Christian perspective than an atheist's. When it comes to fiction…well…let's just say that if I limited myself to Christian authors, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that I would not be as rounded a person as I am today. While we recognize that every author's personal worldview influences their works, we don't dis-count the fact that there are still godly principles and biblical lessons that we can learn from their works. We should be "in the world, but not of the world": existing in this world as lights for Christ, not accepting all the darkness of the world, but finding the truth hidden in the darkness. :)

In response to your questions Roy, yeah, you could probably find something good in an ecchi anime. Maybe some lessons about being a good friend or accepting people for who they are. But the fact that you'd have to cause yourself to stumble in order to gain those insights is what would make it sinful. That's why it's wrong. Hope it helps. :)

Well I agree there will coincidentally be something that could be taken out of contexts and called good. The question I'm asking is, what if I don't think ecchi anime (or any other medium with that content) is wrong?

"how it lines up with your own beliefs is what determines whether it would be right or wrong for you" (Sorry If I'm pulling what you said out of context.)

Sorry it took me forever to reply. Kinda forgot about this thread. XD

Anyhoos, in reference to that…it's an interesting question. Especially when it comes to the idea of ecchi. A show that uses ecchi as it's primary focus is bad because it shamelessly objectifies women without raising any questions as to that objectification. Basically using it's characters as sinful eye candy for the viewer. If you find that acceptable, I'd want to ask you why. We should be ready to give an answer to any one who asks of us, and as Christians we are obligated to make choices that line up with Scripture, as well as set boundaries for ourselves as to the types and amounts of media we will indulge in. The closer and closer you get to a line, the more and more you should question your own maturity as a believer. Of course, different believers will have different lengths from the line set by Scripture that they are comfortable with, but overall our focus should be to glorify God with our media choices.

I kinda did to to be honest. :D

but yeah, I see what your saying now. we are ambassadors for Christ and ecchi would be an obvious compromises in ones integrity. I'm just a little skeptical of everyone setting up there own moral system, but then you get into legalism and we would have to leave it to the holy spirit anyway. so yeah, Rock on man!

This was sort of mentioned in another theology discussion, but what do y'all think about reading classic books where the central theme is someone's sin or just includes a lot of immorality, violence, wrong behavior between two people of the opposite gender, and/or bad language? Examples: The Scarlet Letter, To Kill A Mockingbird, The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn, Pride and Prejudice, A Tale of Two Cities, as well as many other books. I've read most of those books, and one of them I am reading right now for school, and it is what prompted this.

So is it okay to read a book that may contain a lot of evil, because it will help you to be a better writer and may teach you other things as well? Or should you not, because it may corrupt your thinking? I may talk about what I think about this more if I have time, but I wanted to hear your answers first.

(And my apologies if this isn't exactly the right TD to put this in.)

Well, I don't like reading books that have immorality in them. But to tell the truth, I have read To Kill a Mockingbird (It's based out of Alabama and it's Alabama history. It was a essential.), Pride and Prejudice (Did not like it, but then I don't like romances), and Huckleberry Finn (I like how Mark Twain writes so I've read all his books), and a Tale of Two Cities (I don't like most Charles Dickens books except Little Dorrit and a Christmas Carol.)

I have a friend who is looking into studying literature for a degree. She says 1/2 of the books she reads she doesn't like for several reasons. 1. No point. 2. No inherit gain. 3. Unrealistic. 4. It was a waste of time. All because it was romances that would never happen, and situations that would never happen.

BTW, I read so fast that I have read all these books except Scarlet Letters, so if you give me a book to read, I'll read it. Just because mom wants me to write book reports on all the books I read so naturally I want to give some type of book a bad report… LOL 8D

Those are my thoughts.

Well, the Bible is a classic book that contains large amounts of immorality, violence, and pretty much every type wrong behavior there is. If we live in the world, we're going to hear about these things one way or another. Ignoring them isn't going to do much good. That's why the Bible confronts these issues. I think the question we should ask ourselves is whether the book will build us up or tear us down and cause us to think bad thoughts. If a book will cause you to stumble, then you should definitely try to avoid it. If, on the other hand, it will cause you to think carefully and deeply about the problems of this world and further appreciate God's grace, then it may actually be beneficial.

@Joshua- The Bible is on the right side looking at the wrong. I'm fine with that. But I dislike the right being wrong and the wrong being wrong if you know what I mean. That's what To Kill a Mockingbird did to me. It caused me to look at people that I thought were different more closely.

Asking if it's wrong to read books that have immorality in them is like asking if you should have friends who are unbelievers: it really depends on how far you go. The world is full of people who don't share our Christian values, but that doesn't mean we cannot learn from them or enjoy their stories. For me, characters, world, and context all determine the merit of a story. Are bad guys doing bad things? How is the story using these events and circumstances? If immoral acts are being used cheaply so as to titillate or nauseate the reader/viewer, then it's not worth it. However, if the events are being used to further the story and show why/how those acts are bad, I'd have to say that it could be worth it.

I've been watching an anime recently, and towards the middle of the show the main character started to make stupid decision after stupid decision, in a misguided attempt to save a dear friend. As I went on, I started to question why I enjoyed the series at all because the main character was annoying me so much. More recently, the story has developed to the point where he's learned from his past mistakes and is using his failures as stepping-stones to make himself a better person. Because of this, I was glad to have stuck by the show until that point so that I could see the growth of the main character, and to see him become someone that I'm starting to admire more and more. In the same way, while you may not like all the choices that certain characters in books/shows/movies/games/etc may make, their overall impact on the story may contain enough worth to justify continuing with it.

@Rosie Right, I understand… I think. Do you mean "the right being wrong and the wrong being right"?

@Joshua- It works that way too. But I read books where right was pretty wrong, and wrong was really wrong. But I have also read books where the right was wrong and the wrong was right.

Oh, I get it now. Yep, Isaiah 5:20.

Yes, Thank you. I was trying to think of that reference.

I used the Memverse "Search Bible" tool.

I tried that but I obviously wasn't getting the wording right. 8P

Ah yes, that can be frustrating.

Good thoughts, all of you! I just read the Scarlet Letter, and I'm kind of torn about how I feel about it. For the greater part of the story, I thought the book portrayed what was done as wrong, but then towards the end, something happened that made me think otherwise. I thought that it was very well-written, and it has caused me to think about some things and give me more compassion for some people. But, on the other hand, it didn't seem like Hawthorne always made it very clear that sin was sin. I'm still glad I read it, though.

So I guess I see good reasons to read classics, but I feel like I need to be careful. Philippians 4:8 comes to mind. I don't want what I read to cause me to set my mind on things of this world.

I saw The Force Awakens, and really I didn't find very many bad things at all. I think there was one use of God's name in vain, but other than that, nothing bothered me (that I can remember). When R kisses F, I didn't think that was bad, because there is no place in the Bible that says "Thou shalt not kiss someone of the other sex that you are not married to" or anything like that. Besides, F was unconscious, and it wasn't even on the lips…

So with this question of the line. Is is good to watch/read/entertain_ourselves with Movies and book that are intertwined with other religions like Buddhism (Star-wars, karate kid), Hinduism (Dr. Who), Satanism (the Noah movie) or something like Thor which draw inspiration from pagan religions?

I don't see why not. Mostly because I can link some of the characteristics to being faithful to God.

I think that to be honest it really depends on how much it's connected, if it's not stating core values, trying to preach it, etc then you shouldn't worry as much, but if it's satanic in origin I personally think that there is where drawing the line is necessary