The Fourth Commandment

John 1 says that Jesus was the word of God. If we do away with God's word, we are, in a sense, doing away with Jesus

The Bible Also says the the Lord does not change. If he does not change, then how did people used to have to do the law, but not anymore? Wouldn't it be the same now as it was then since he does not change?

You are correct…the Lord does not change. The law was given to those people before Christ came. It all pointed to Christ. But then Christ came and fulfilled all the prophecies of the law and because of Christ's coming the old law is done away with and we are given the New Covenant.

"John 1 says that Jesus was the word of God. If we do away with God's word, we are, in a sense, doing away with Jesus"

I agree with that statement completely. What I don't agree with is what that statement implied–that I was doing away with God's Word by what I said. I was doing nothing of the sort; what I meant to say by stating that the ceremonial, civil, and sacrificial laws have been done away with was not to say that they are eradicated and completely useless. Instead, I was saying that they are no longer relevant to the Christians of the New Covenant, and we do not have to follow them, because we are not under that law (though we are, of course, still under the moral law). Many of the laws given to the Jewish nation were based on principles that we are still to follow today (in summary, love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself), but we do not have to follow them down to the last detail; in fact we are not to do that. Once, when some believers were convinced that one had to observe the Old Covenant ritual of circumcision in order to be saved, Paul spoke to them in this way:
"I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace."
Anyone who attempts to keep part of the Old Covenant law is obligated to obey it ALL. In addition, those who believe that they must obey that law to be saved are severed from the grace of Christ, because salvation is NOT by the law.

"The Bible Also says the the Lord does not change. If he does not change, then how did people used to have to do the law, but not anymore? Wouldn't it be the same now as it was then since he does not change?"

The Bible does say that God does not change–"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever," "I the LORD do not change," etc.–I agree with that wholeheartedly. But to say that a law that was once given by God is no longer in effect is not at all to say that God has changed. Nor is it even to say that God has changed His sovereign plan. God had always planned to have a specific law given to a specific people, to be obeyed for a specific period of time–until the coming of Jesus Christ, and the fulfillment of that law. The Old Covenant law was only to obeyed by the Jews and only between the time it was given and the resurrection of the Christ, just as the law given to Adam not to eat the fruit of the forbidden tree was a law that was limited to Adam and his time period. God's nature does not change when He institutes a law or when He removes a law. It is all according to His sovereign plan.

Agreed!

WWJD? The answer is the law.

Matthew 24:35
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

But He did not do away with it. If it is not done away with, shouldn't we follow it?

Psalm 119:89:
Your word, Lord, is eternal;
it stands firm in the heavens.

His word is eternal it still applies.

Ditto to what Nicolas said…

Yes, you are correct. His Word IS eternal and it DOES apply to our lives. But, the OT sacrifices and such were for cleansing from sin, and were done until Jesus came to earth and died for our sins. HE was the perfect sacrifice "As a lamb to the slaughter…". Now, because he has come and has been the perfect sacrifice, we don't have to offer up animal sacrifices for forgiveness of sins - Jesus IS that perfect and complete sacrifice for sins of men.

I am not an expert on the sacrifices ( or any of it for that matter) and I do agree that right now we do not have to offer sacrifices right now (We can't even do it actually). But we still need to observe the Sabbath and such.

Sin is the transgression of the law. We therefore still need to follow the law.

I'm working on writing out my answer but I don't have much time right now so when I have more time (hopefully tonight) I will reply to you.
Just wanted to let you know so that you aren't left wondering :)

"Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled."

Jesus, in
Matthew 5:17-18

What do you think about it?

I agree that the sacrificial laws were merely imperfect types of the perfect Sacrifice to be given in the New Covenant. However, I have news for those of you who believe that this means the Sabbath has been "fulfilled", if you will. The Sabbath was NOT part of the Old Covenant. It is instead included in the same category as the institutions of marriage (Gen 2:24), family (Gen 4:1-2), civil government (Gen 5:5-6), and the Dominion Mandate (Gen 1:28). Surely you don't believe any of those have been done away with? Anyway, the Sabbath was first instituted in Genesis 2:2-3. It was NOT part of the signs and types of the Old Covenant, such as the sacrificial laws.

Also, did you know that Jesus taught the Sabbath? It's true! I don't have a whole lot of time to go into this, but one saying of his is "The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath".

It's nice To finally have someone agreeing with me on here that this still applies.

I think that the seventh day sabbath is still in effect today. The OT law was not removed, only modified.

Yet, I do NOT think that all my wonderful Christian friends through homeschool and BB are "sinning" when they go to church on Sunday.

I think it is just fine to worship on Sunday, but that does not mean we should not observe the Sabbath. We should worship every day.

No, we need to follow the New Covenant. The law were for the Israelites but we as believers are not under the law…we are under the New Covenant

I believe that it is not really brand new but rather renewed.

Ummm…I don't understand what you are trying to say could you please explain?

I believe that the covenant was rewed when Jesus came.

What is…the law?

The law is the first 5 books of the bible

Yeah…I know. So you're saying that the Law is renewed…what do you mean by that?

No, the covenant is renewed.

@Isaac: :)

Guys, why are we still arguing about being under the law? Didn't I discredit that idea as applying to the Sabbath?

BTW, I wanted to clarify something. Many Christians have a misunderstanding of what the Sabbath is meant for. According to Genesis 2:2-3, God rested on the seventh day ("sabbath" literally means "seventh day"). He sanctified the Sabbath for us to rest on, not necessarily as a day set aside for worshiping Him. This makes sense, because EVERY day, every hour, every SECOND of our lives should be dedicated to worshiping Him with our thoughts and actions. Why one day more than another? I do NOT believe at all that going to church on Sunday is wrong. In fact, for our family it is more restful to stay home from church, and we have occasionally attended a Sunday church instead on that weekend. It is when we ought to rest that should be the issue.

BTW, I wanted to clarify something. Many Christians have a misunderstanding of what the Sabbath is meant for. According to Genesis 2:2-3, God rested on the seventh day ("sabbath" literally means "seventh day"). He sanctified the Sabbath for us to rest on, not necessarily as a day set aside for worshiping Him. This makes sense, because EVERY day, every hour, every SECOND of our lives should be dedicated to worshiping Him with our thoughts and actions. Why one day more than another? I do NOT believe at all that going to church on Sunday is wrong. In fact, for our family it is more restful to stay home from church, and we have occasionally attended a Sunday church instead on that weekend. It is when we ought to rest that should be the issue.

I agree with you, Matthew.

Agreed

Agreed. I do think we should rest on the Sabbath - the seventh day of the week.

@Carissa - could you give me some verses about the New Covenant? Where in the Bible does it say that Sunday is the Christian Sabbath?

@Carissa, I'll take you off the hook. Courtney and I already know that as concerning verses in the Bible that say "the first day of the week is the Christian Sabbath" or anything similar, there is none. Zilch. Nada.

Since this is true, why do you keep Sunday?

How do we know that Sunday is the first day of the week? Do we call it so because it is first on calendars? Is the Sunday that the early church observed the same day that we observe? How do we know that what the Jews celebrated as their Sabbath is what we celebrate as Saturday today. Was Noah keeping track of what day was the Sabbath (before Moses). If not, how do we know what the "Sabbath Day" truly is? Just a few probing questions. :)

@jimmy - I know of a good tract that answers these questions, but I do not know how to point you to it right now. :( My guess is Noah kept track of the Sabbath on the ark. However, I really don't know that it truly matters. It probably doesn't matter as much that we keep THE seventh day of the week as that we keep EVERY seventh day. However, I still have a bit of a problem with Sunday, because of its pagan origins.

If we are going to say that, then maybe the Sabbath should be Wednesday. I think that right now the best day to observe is Saturday because that is the seventh day of the week.

I guess my question would be, how do we know that Saturday is the seventh day of the week? Is it what we have been taught by our calendar positions, or is it really the seventh day (as God intended)? I personally believe that our calendar today is correct, but I am asking just for discussion. :)

What I am saying is, if it is not Saturday, it could be any day of the week. I think that because on the current calendar, Saturday is the seventh day of the week, we should observe it then.

O.K. I see where you are coming from. Sorry about the confusion, then. :)

"@Carissa, I'll take you off the hook. Courtney and I already know that as concerning verses in the Bible that say "the first day of the week is the Christian Sabbath" or anything similar, there is none. Zilch. Nada.

Since this is true, why do you keep Sunday?"

I'll answer for Carissa, since I'm her sister and she hasn't yet. :)

I've already sent Courtney in an e-mail a while ago about why we believe it's Sunday. If you like I'd be happy to re-post it again. Would you like that, Matthew?

Just obey the torah, and blow the shofar 100 (not 101) times on Rosh hashannah , and you are good

Sure, I'd like to see that.

@Stefani: I don't mean to be rude, but that type of sarcasm is not appreciated. It gets us nowhere in the theology discussion.

@ Mathew Minica - I'm sorry I offended you, I will remember not to use sarcasm on the theological forums in the future.

I believe that keeping the sabbath is not necessary for Salvation, and neither is any other type of work. The Laws in the Bible, however, are not written because God needs us to keep them (yes, wants holiness) but most of them are simply there so that we can have a better way of life. Look at the Jews……Itzhak Perlman, Issac Stern, Haym Solomon. They all live (or have lived) more blessed lives than the average Christian. Why? because all the Christians look at the Old Testament, and even the New Testament, and say "we cant be legalistic" or "we are saved by grace, so therefore we can just throw out the law " The Law is there to provide a better way of living for US!!
Keeping the sabbath is for US!
Sunday is only mentioned in the Bible as a fellowship day, NOT THE SABBATH, so Saturday should still be our Sabbath, If we are going to keep one, even though we aren't under the law. There is no reason to switch our REST day to a day that the early church FELLOWSHIPPED AND WORSHIPED ON. That was just a man created idea……we should be fellowshipping and worshiping Yeshua every day…

facepalm Whoops…I meant to answer but didn't do it..cause I forgot. Sorry about that. Yes, Bethany, why don't you post that on here.

@Stefani: And another thing, it makes me think incorrectly about the side you're on! :P I forgive you. I wasn't really offended. It takes a lot to offend me. :) I also completely agree with everything you said. (I still don't think the Sabbath should be included in the category of the Jewish Law, but anyway. :)) So now I'm curious, what do you think about attending church on Sunday?

:) yes, I suppose my first comment did make me look like I was making fun of Jews :) I was just learning about Rosh Hashannah shofar blowing the other day……
Quite personally, I would rather attend church on Friday night, and then on Saturday morning as well, like the Jews do, but we go to a Baptist church on Sunday. The ideal situation for me would be to do it like the Jews do, and then get together with friends and fellowship on Sunday. But that probably wont happen….
We used to live in buffalo grove, Illinois, and we had several Jewish neighbors who would walk to Temple on Saturdays with their full outfit and prayer shawl, and little hat thing, and come home humming Jewish tunes. It was really awesome!

We have a pretty good Sabbath-keeping church we go to most weeks, but like I said above, we also stay home when we need more of a rest, because going to church for our family isn't very restful. :) We're not really a part of any Sunday church currently, but we have visited a few in the past.

@Isaac - now that this conversation is going, I'm also curious about your opinion concerning going to church on Sunday. :)

I don't think that is a sin to go to church on Sunday, in fact, I believe that we should worship every day. I think that even though it is not a sin to go to church on Sunday, that does not mean that the Sabbath is done away with.

My thoughts exactly. Great to hear your opinion, Isaac.

What are your thoughts on Romans 14:5? "One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."