Want Calvinist thoughts

Yes, you could say angels are elect and reprobate as well. In the sense that God foreordained that some of them would follow Satan in his rebellion and some would remain faithful to God. But only in that sense. Essentially, the main point to consider is that they are mutable beings just like man in his original state, so they are able to choose according to the desires presented to them and the commands given to them. The only way a mutable angel could choose evil is if an evil temptation was presented to him. At least, that's the only way I can see it happening. If someone else wants to correct me, I'd gladly hear it, because I want to know other sides to this.

Just be careful how you say it, though. When dealing with the subject, it's important to remember James 1:13-15. I know what you meant, of course, but your previous post could easily be interpreted as forgetting the truth of that verse. If I hadn't put it here in this context, someone probably would have used it against you. ;-P

But anyway, yeah–the point is that evil existed at some point before man sinned. People say the first recorded in the Bible is when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. But no; READ the passage! The serpent 1) lied to Eve, 2) contradicted God, and 3) urged her to disobey God! And one of the first things (if not THE first thing) mentioned in chapter 3 is that the serpent was the most cunning living thing in the garden.

By the way, everyone, I (and presumably Christian too) say these things for the benefit of everyone. We just reply to each other because we're continuing our point. :-)

Oh…I do believe God knows everything, and has and always will.

Oh, I believe that God knows everything. I also believe that we cannot separate His foreknowledge from His election.

You have to believe that God "made" me believe this heresy. (according to you)
The Bible is very clear that God doesn't make people sin.

It is perhaps hard to wrap our minds around God's omniscience, but that is okay.
Remember, you can throw the ball wherever you want, but God knows where you will throw it.
Like if you watch the same football game twice (if you could stand doing that) the second time you will know what the players will do, but just because you know, doesn't mean you cause them to do that.

Oh, I believe that God knows everything. I also believe that we cannot separate His foreknowledge from His election. You have to believe that God "made" me believe this heresy. (according to you) The Bible is very clear that God doesn't make people sin. It is perhaps hard to wrap our minds around God's omniscience, but that is okay. Remember, you can throw the ball wherever you want, but God knows where you will throw it. Like if you watch the same football game twice (if you could stand doing that) the second time you will know what the players will do, but just because you know, doesn't mean you cause them to do that.

I wouldn't call your level of Arminianism heresy. We believe you're a true Christian, but as a part of God's plan you have certain significant misunderstandings. Perhaps it is because he is going to clear you of them, as he did the three of us. :P
And we should be very careful about saying that God "makes" people sin. But we realize that their sins are a part of his plan, so in the end they have no choice when they sin. They are responsible. And let's not forget the way God hardened Pharaoh.

God's omniscience doesn't need to be a difficult subject. God knows everything because he made everything just the way it is, including time. God doesn't just "know" where the ball is going to go. When he created the single creation of time, he necessarily created the ball's trajectory and velocity and everything else.
There was never a time where God was planning out "time", when he foresaw what man's actions would be and planned his own accordingly, such that once he was done planning, he began creating. God doesn't work that way - why should he? Everything, including sin, is a part of God's "plan" - which isn't so much a plan as reality itself.
So it's not as though God's watching the football game twice. It's not even as if God coached both teams, or was the only referee. It's as if God wrote a story. God is completely outside of time, and he created it in its entirety. Why should the creation have any hand in the creating? (And how is that even possible?) It is the potter who has a right over the clay, not the other way around. He can make the clay to be whatever he wants in the interest of his glory.

That's why Arminianism really is a serious issue. In the end, it always limits God's creative power, and exalts the will of man. It finds fault with God for having complete control over us - because it is a part of our human nature to want control for ourselves. But power and glory belong to God, not man.

TFW you want to troll a TD forum, but the posts are too long and you don't want to read them all.

:(

Thou wicked Pelagian.

Okay, I think I might understand what you are saying better.

Two questions,
Does God make the Devil tempt people?
and,
Just for clarification, you believe that God is writing a story, putting on a puppet show (sorry I know those are disliked words), so He can get glory from the puppets He is puppeting? (another coined word). [again I am not trying to be antagonistic, there are a lot of nasty Arminians and Calvinist out there today, I do not want to be nasty.] :)

And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

Okay, I think I might understand what you are saying better. Two questions, Does God make the Devil tempt people? and, Just for clarification, you believe that God is writing a story, putting on a puppet show (sorry I know those are disliked words), so He can get glory from the puppets He is puppeting? (another coined word). [again I am not trying to be antagonistic, there are a lot of nasty Arminians and Calvinist out there today, I do not want to be nasty.] :) And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

Off-topic pet-peeve alert. The Devil doesn't tempt any ol' "people". I doubt I have ever, ever, been tempted by Satan himself. I doubt that you have. Have we been tempted by his demons? Sure. But I bet Satan spends his time working in bigger, more critical ways, like possessing Judas, or influencing world leaders.

Back to the topic at hand. :P That Satan and his demons tempt people is a part of God's plan. Every individual occurrence of such temptation is also a part of God's plan. But God doesn't call Satan and say, "Go tempt so and so."

To your second question: basically, yes. If I write a story, its characters don't glorify me, because they're not really self-aware. (Or… maybe, just maybe… they are! :P) But God, in his infinite power, created human beings with souls. We are those before whom he is glorifying himself, and our appreciation and praise are real - even though it's all a part of God's plan, his story. And no, you weren't being nasty. :)

Agree with you on demons, though we really don't know how fast demons and Satan can travel. Maybe Satan spends most of His time on mars. (maybe not)

So let me get this straight, God causes men to sin, and do everything He wants them to do, but He doesn't do that with demons?

No, they each obey his eternal will in the same way. From God's perspective, this involves their sinning which, ultimately, God has planned. From our perspective or a demon's perspective, God would never tell us to sin, though every time we do that is a part of his eternal plan. Terminology can be confusing sometimes. :)

Thou wicked Pelagian.

that i am! but isn't it plebeian?

No.

Yes, you could say angels are elect and reprobate as well. In the sense that God foreordained that some of them would follow Satan in his rebellion and some would remain faithful to God. But only in that sense. Essentially, the main point to consider is that they are mutable beings just like man in his original state, so they are able to choose according to the desires presented to them and the commands given to them. The only way a mutable angel could choose evil is if an evil temptation was presented to him. At least, that's the only way I can see it happening. If someone else wants to correct me, I'd gladly hear it, because I want to know other sides to this.

Just be careful how you say it, though. When dealing with the subject, it's important to remember James 1:13-15. I know what you meant, of course, but your previous post could easily be interpreted as forgetting the truth of that verse. If I hadn't put it here in this context, someone probably would have used it against you. ;-P

Yeah, I addressed that generally in an earlier post. I understand that that passage seems to totally contradict what I am saying, but there's really no alternative, so I'm not sure how else we can understand it except as a paradox. God must have tempted Satan, because there's no other way he could have fallen. And He did it in order to start the ball rolling in His eternal plan of redemption. So perhaps when we're told in James that God doesn't tempt anyone, that's exclusive to humans and doesn't include the one angel that he tempted at the beginning of time. shrugs I really don't know.

And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

Sovereignty = control and Lordship. God is in control of everything. Even sin. Even your affirmation of His omniscience necessitates that. As I said before, even if God merely knows something is going to happen, it must happen, because He can't be wrong. Therefore, people have no choice but to do what God knows is going to happen. Either way, you still have people sinning because it is in God's eternal, unchangeable plan. There's no way around it, unless you subscribe to open theism.

Yes, you could say angels are elect and reprobate as well. In the sense that God foreordained that some of them would follow Satan in his rebellion and some would remain faithful to God. But only in that sense. Essentially, the main point to consider is that they are mutable beings just like man in his original state, so they are able to choose according to the desires presented to them and the commands given to them. The only way a mutable angel could choose evil is if an evil temptation was presented to him. At least, that's the only way I can see it happening. If someone else wants to correct me, I'd gladly hear it, because I want to know other sides to this.

I have heard it said that this was less a "temptation" on God's part than it was a lack of full understanding of the nature of God on the part of Satan. God doesn't tempt, as per James, and if a theory, however, strong, requires that God does tempt, the theory is flawed. Thus, if Satan wasn't tempted by God, there are 2 remaining possibilities:

1. Evil originated with some being other than Satan; the Bible does not say that Satan was the first being to rebel (at least, I am pretty sure it doesn't), so it is technically possible that he himself was tempted by that other being. That is a bit far-fetched, though, and it doesn't really answer the question, for how did that being begin to rebel?

2. It was a kind of self-generated rebellion such that Satan was culpable and God wasn't. This is how I have heard it explained. Satan did not perceive God as he should have. God created Satan as a non-perfect (i.e. not God) being, and one of the things that entailed was an incomplete knowledge and understanding of God's character/sovereignty. This misconception about God led Him ultimately to challenge God's authority and lead Him into sin and rebellion. This idea seems a bit more sound than to say that God made him sin. Of course, this idea could be completely wrong, but it does seem to lie a bit closer to the Biblical account of the first fall and of the nature of God Himself.

Just a thought. :)

And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

Sovereignty = control and Lordship. God is in control of everything. Even sin. Even your affirmation of His omniscience necessitates that. As I said before, even if God merely _knows_ something is going to happen, it _must_ happen, because He can't be wrong. Therefore, people have no choice but to do what God knows is going to happen. Either way, you still have people sinning because it is in God's eternal, unchangeable plan. There's no way around it, unless you subscribe to open theism.

I've actually been working on an article on this exact topic. I think there is a big difference between God controlling everything and Him being in control of everything. I'll hopefully post it here, though it might not be for a couple of weeks.

So you basically admit that God's power is limited? (Or not?) That's the one thing we'll never give up on, so I look forward to reading the article for curiosity's sake.
^(Am disappointed that you didn't respond to my super-awesome rebuttal on page 4. :P)^

And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

Sovereignty = control and Lordship. God is in control of everything. Even sin. Even your affirmation of His omniscience necessitates that. As I said before, even if God merely _knows_ something is going to happen, it _must_ happen, because He can't be wrong. Therefore, people have no choice but to do what God knows is going to happen. Either way, you still have people sinning because it is in God's eternal, unchangeable plan. There's no way around it, unless you subscribe to open theism.

I've actually been working on an article on this exact topic. I think there is a big difference between God _controlling_ everything and Him being _in control_ of everything. I'll hopefully post it here, though it might not be for a couple of weeks.

Wow…okay… I'm very interested to see how you explain that. =P

^(Am disappointed that you didn't respond to my super-awesome rebuttal on page 4. :P)^

That is how I have felt throughout basically this entire debate, as almost none of my specific points have been responded to. xP

^(Am disappointed that you didn't respond to my super-awesome rebuttal on page 4. :P)^

That is how I have felt throughout basically this entire debate, as almost none of my specific points have been responded to. xP

^It has been aggravating to read. :P^

Yeah, exactly… I guess everyone reads the title and assumes that we're on trial or something. :P

Thank you so much for contributing your thoughts! That's exactly what I wanted.

Obviously, as you said, Option #1 doesn't solve anything. If another being tempted Satan, that's the same problem we had with Satan tempting Eve.

Option #2 is compelling. I just still can't see how a morally wrong decision/attitude could have arisen in the heart/soul/inner being(/whatever you want to call the thing that dictates the will of angels) of Satan without it coming from an outside source. He was created perfect but mutable (so, not perfect on the same level as God, who is immutably so), so while he had the propensity to sin, he didn't have the "knowledge of good and evil," so to speak, so it wouldn't have even made sense to ever do anything but that which he was told.

At least, that's how I see it. But I'm just as open to criticism as you are, because, as you said, the James passage seems to be pretty clear. I'm not entirely convinced that it's without exceptions (especially when it comes to the beings being tempted), but I also am instinctively opposed to the idea of God tempting anyone. However, isn't that something that's hinted at when He does things like send evil spirits to people? I just really don't know.

Yeah, exactly… I guess everyone reads the title and assumes that we're on trial or something. :P

Yeah… which apparently means that they can just ask us question after question and not take time to respond to the very thorough argumentation. =P

I should do a study comparing the average length of our posts. (Of course, if we keep talking like this, we'd actually lose… :P)

Lol, you should. xD This kind of thing is precisely why I haven't debated this subject in a long time. =P

Haha, yeah, I guess you're right. =P

So you basically admit that God's power is limited? (Or not?) That's the one thing we'll never give up on, so I look forward to reading the article for curiosity's sake. ^(Am disappointed that you didn't respond to my super-awesome rebuttal on page 4. :P)^

Heh. No. Where did you get that idea? =P No, I believe in the omnipotence of God just as much as you do. Nothing can stand against Him, absolutely nothing. Have you ever considered, though, that God may limit His own power, in a sense?

And I do plan to answer your posts above; my time is limited, though! :P Will try to reply tomorrow.

^(Am disappointed that you didn't respond to my super-awesome rebuttal on page 4. :P)^

That is how I have felt throughout basically this entire debate, as almost none of my specific points have been responded to. xP

I know what you mean, though I can't speak for others, I am viewing this less as a debate and more of a question and answer. That is why I haven't responded to every thing you have said. Though I am responding to this God controls everything because I can't see how you reconcile that with James.

And BTW I do believe God is sovereign and that nothing catches Him off guard.

Sovereignty = control and Lordship. God is in control of everything. Even sin. Even your affirmation of His omniscience necessitates that. As I said before, even if God merely _knows_ something is going to happen, it _must_ happen, because He can't be wrong. Therefore, people have no choice but to do what God knows is going to happen. Either way, you still have people sinning because it is in God's eternal, unchangeable plan. There's no way around it, unless you subscribe to open theism.

No I disagree, God's omniscience does not mean that He controls everything. As I have said before, I believe you can throw the ball wherever you want, but God knows where you will throw it. God knowing where you will throw doesn't stop you from having the choice to throw it wherever.

The correct reference was Acts 10:34.

Yes, thank you, that's right. I don't know where 42 came from, except I had memorized them both in one passage last year for Nats. :P

Allow me to point out that you believe God's power is limited, e.g. God's power is limited to telling the truth, God cannot lie. So to some degree God's very nature limits His own power. We might say this limits His power, but rather it magnifies His holiness. So I have a problem when someone says that God makes people sin, that He causes evil, or that He made Satan rebel and get kicked out of heaven, that seems to limit His holiness.

Do you believe that God isn't powerful enough to be able to create beings that can choose a relationship with Him after He has first initiated the relationship? Without Him have to make them like puppets? You see, in the end, it is not us, who limit God's power, but you.

It might seem that I am now debating a little more, and I am.

So you basically admit that God's power is limited? (Or not?) That's the one thing we'll never give up on, so I look forward to reading the article for curiosity's sake.

Heh. No. Where did you get that idea? =P No, I believe in the omnipotence of God just as much as you do. Nothing can stand against Him, absolutely nothing. Have you ever considered, though, that God may limit His own power, in a sense?

First of all, why would God limit his own power over his creation. Second of all, how can you back that up from the Bible? (I'm sure that's what the article attempts to do, but I'll ask now anyway. :P)
No, you don't believe in the omnipotence of God as much as I do. You apparently believe that God limits his own omnipotence. :) But again, God's timeless nature shows that as he created time, he created everything that happens inside. I've run out of new ways to explain that because I've done it so often.

What is it in James that needs to be reconciled with God's complete control? (I don't think you every actually made the point you were planning to.)

From a human perspective, we seem to have a choice over where we're going to throw the ball. And you agree that God knows where we'll throw it. You'd also agree that the reason he knows it is because he is "timeless". But that necessarily means that when God "created" he created everything throughout all of time, because he is timeless. There was never a "time" when he reviewed what all man's choices would be in his creation, one, because he's timeless; and two, because he is the creator, the potter! He has every right over the clay to make whatever he wants. (And since he's God, he also made the clay itself!) Why should he bend down and let the clay make its own decision, even once?

And yes, God cannot do things that are outside of his character. Lying is one of those things. He has the power to lie, but he will never do so because it is against his truthful nature. We agree on that.

Do you believe that God isn't powerful enough to be able to create beings that can choose a relationship with Him after He has first initiated the relationship? Without Him have to make them like puppets? You see, in the end, it is not us, who limit God's power, but you.

I don't believe God can make beings independent of himself any more than he can make a second God. Perhaps his power would be enough to do either of these things (mind-boggling as two all-powerful Gods would be), but they are against his nature. To create a human being with an independent will is to create a (heavily diluted) god, something that can do what it wants independent of God's timeless creative power.

No, we're not the ones limiting God's power. God can't make men with a perfectly "free will" any more than he can lie. That God cannot do these things magnifies his holiness, and in the end, magnifies his power, by not giving away any power to men.

Let me put things in a little perspective to show how you are limiting God's power, or saying that he limits it himself, or whatever. :) This whole debate is basically a bunch of God's little pots arguing about whether or not they had any say in their creation and ongoing use. The one side says God was nice and delegated some of his power to the pots, so that they could make their own choices, completely independent of him. That sounds just great, but they only believe this because they think they should have a free will. They must have it, so they decide that surely God limits his own power so that his little pots can make their own decisions. (Whether or not they realize it, that's extremely arrogant.)
What they don't realize is that some pots have been made for honorable use, and others for dishonorable. They have no power to shape their own future, because that's what the Potter does. Their entire use has been written out by God, and may be summed up as "honorable", or "elect", and "dishonorable", or "reprobate". The pots on the other side see this as a clear indication that God is in complete control of his pots - though we are accountable for our own sins, and have the capacity to enjoy our "honorable" use - it is God who directs the use. It is he who has made us, and we are his.

"What is it in James that needs to be reconciled with God's complete control? (I don't think you every actually made the point you were planning to.)" Because if God causes everything, and controls everything, that means He makes the demons tempt you, and in fact God is tempting you, contradicting James. Or perhaps, when you lie, it really isn't you lying but God lying because God is the one who made you do it, contradicting God's very nature.

" Why should he bend down and let the clay make its own decision, even once?" Because He loves the clay more than you love a puppet, because the clay is more than a puppet.

"He has the power to lie, but he will never do so because it is against his truthful nature." ~Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;"

Let me ask you a question, Do Humans have a will? See you aren't talking about the absence of a "free" will, but rather, the absence of a will altogether, because God is the one who is moving the pots around. Rev. 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

"This whole debate is basically a bunch of God's little pots arguing about whether or not they had any say in their creation and ongoing use." In this one sentence you seem to contradict yourself, who is doing the arguing? the pots? or God? See you really believe that this whole debate is God just moving some pots around, and that we are no different then a rock or a tree.** But, God has made us in His image, after His likeness, different from any rock or tree, or earthworm.**

Can I reconcile the fact that Humans have a will, and that God is still in control, and sovereign? No. That is where I come to paradox. Romans 9 talks about God sovereignty, and Romans 10 talks about Human responsibility.

So perhaps when we're told in James that God doesn't tempt anyone, that's exclusive to humans and doesn't include the one angel that he tempted at the beginning of time.

He still hardened Pharaoh's heart.

I would explain that by saying that temptation is the attempt to lure someone into sin manipulatively. God didn't manipulate Pharaoh and try to convince him. He's sovereign and has a will; and that will required that Pharaoh's heart be hardened. When God puts us in tempting situations to test our faith, no one says that contradicts James. People just can't wrap their minds around the full concept of God's sovereignty. And that's not a putdown, because neither can we. We just accept that there are things about God's sovereignty that seem unpleasantly strange to us. And that shouldn't surprise us, seeing as we're finite.

You're misunderstanding me again. Yes, man has a will. But what man wills is always in accordance with God's eternal will. If a man "wills" to do something, it was God's will that he will. We're not just puppets. We're "living" puppets, who are created in the image of God with a soul. We have the capacity to appreciate and praise him.
And no one is saying that God is the one tempting us every time we sin. That we sin is a part of his will, but that doesn't mean he stoops down and tempts us. (That is a hyper-Calvinistic position, I believe.) Whether or not he first "tempted" Satan is debatable. But he doesn't tempt us.
So it's not God just moving us around. Yes, everything we ever do is a part of his will. But we have a will that wills to do things that God willed that we would will to do.

Think about how we're created in the image of God. Genesis doesn't specify exactly what that means, but most people would agree that it means that humans have a rational intelligence, a will, creativity, emotions, and the capacity to fellowship. I'm objecting to none of these; they are all things God has created in man.
God's capacity to any of these things is infinite. Man's isn't. Take creativity, for example. God is creative; just walk outside and look around. Man is also creative; walk back inside and look around again. But man can't create out of nothing the way God can. Man takes what God has already created and uses it. He is imitating God, but in a dependent way.
Or intelligence. God is perfectly intelligent and wise, knowing everything. Man is intelligent and wise, but he will never, ever learn something that God doesn't already know. He will never know something that God didn't make to be the way it is.
So with will. Man has a will, in imitation of God. But he can't will anything apart from God's eternal will. Man is always dependent upon God - he is an "image", an "imitation" of God, not a copy. Therefore our will is very real, just as our emotions, creativity, or intelligence. But none of these can operate outside of God.

No paradox is necessary. Humans have a will, but their will matches God's eternal purpose.

(And by the way, I wasn't disagreeing with you when I said that God has the power to lie. God cannot, and will never be able to lie. But the reason is because it is his nature not to lie.)

So perhaps when we're told in James that God doesn't tempt anyone, that's exclusive to humans and doesn't include the one angel that he tempted at the beginning of time.

He still hardened Pharaoh's heart. I would explain that by saying that temptation is the attempt to lure someone into sin manipulatively. God didn't manipulate Pharaoh and try to convince him. He's sovereign and has a will; and that will required that Pharaoh's heart be hardened. When God puts us in tempting situations to test our faith, no one says *that* contradicts James. People just can't wrap their minds around the full concept of God's sovereignty. And that's not a putdown, because neither can we. We just accept that there are things about God's sovereignty that seem unpleasantly strange to us. And that shouldn't surprise us, seeing as we're finite.

It is interesting to note, that God only hardened Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart.

So God is not controlling the demons when they tempt us? And is therefore not controlling everything?

"we have a will that wills to do things that God willed that we would will to do." So really you are saying that our
will is just part of our puppet and God pulls the strings on our will as well, right?

It is interesting to note, that God only hardened Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart after He had softened it by showing His power thru the ten plagues…

We could go around like this forever. That we are tempted by ourselves and by demons is a part of God's plan. But that doesn't mean God himself is tempting us. I don't know what's so hard to understand about all this - whether or not one agrees.

Our will is something that is directed by God's plan. But that doesn't make it any less real for us. We're not just puppets being played with by God. If I use puppets, I can make them talk about how great and awesome and righteous and powerful I am, but that's not real, because they're not alive. But God has created us with souls, so even though everything we ever do (and our will, our praise, and everything else) was planned out completely by God, we still have a will, and we can meaningfully glorify God, because we are made in his image - not copies, but images.

So forget the word puppet, if that helps, because puppets don't have souls, like people do. (I wasn't the one who first suggested the word puppet, anyway. It's not a good description.)

It is interesting to note, that God only hardened Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart.

God hardened Pharaoh's heart after He had softened it by showing His power thru the ten plagues...

Do you have a verse saying Pharaoh's heart was softened?

"That we are tempted by ourselves and by demons is a part of God's plan. But that doesn't mean God himself is tempting us." Yes! That is what I am saying. God doesn't do the tempting, God isn't controlling the demons, but they are a part of His Plan. Just, because evil is a part of God's plan doesn't mean He caused it. Maybe I was just hearing you wrong, but it sure sounded like you believed that God causes evil, (even the evil of demons in temptation).

"So forget the word puppet, if that helps, because puppets don't have souls, like people do. (I wasn't the one who first suggested the word puppet, anyway. It's not a good description.)"
Do not forget that "pots" or "clay" doesn't have souls either. I don't like the word puppets any more than you do. It would seem that in one sense, God does have power over the clay, but in another sense, God lets the clay have a will to choose. *context of Romans 10.

"What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Some say that the greek word for fitted suggest that the vessels themselves had part in their fittedness.

Note: I do not believe God elects people to Hell, He does though for Heaven.

So perhaps when we're told in James that God doesn't tempt anyone, that's exclusive to humans and doesn't include the one angel that he tempted at the beginning of time.

He still hardened Pharaoh's heart. I would explain that by saying that temptation is the attempt to lure someone into sin manipulatively. God didn't manipulate Pharaoh and try to convince him. He's sovereign and has a will; and that will required that Pharaoh's heart be hardened. When God puts us in tempting situations to test our faith, no one says *that* contradicts James. People just can't wrap their minds around the full concept of God's sovereignty. And that's not a putdown, because neither can we. We just accept that there are things about God's sovereignty that seem unpleasantly strange to us. And that shouldn't surprise us, seeing as we're finite.

Wow, I really like your explanation. Like, a lot. Our sin being a part of God's will is not Him tempting us. The solution is as simple as that. Why did I not think of that myself? XD

"That we are tempted by ourselves and by demons is a part of God's plan. But that doesn't mean God himself is tempting us." Yes! That is what I am saying. God doesn't do the tempting, God isn't controlling the demons, but they are *a part of His Plan*. Just, because evil is a part of God's plan *doesn't* mean He caused it. Maybe I was just hearing you wrong, but it sure sounded like you believed that God causes evil, (even the evil of demons in temptation). *_God does cause evil, in the most general sense. God causes everything. To not believe so is to deny His absolute sovereignty._* "So forget the word puppet, if that helps, because puppets don't have souls, like people do. (I wasn't the one who first suggested the word puppet, anyway. It's not a good description.)" Do not forget that "pots" or "clay" doesn't have souls either. I don't like the word puppets any more than you do. It would seem that in one sense, God does have power over the clay, but in another sense, God lets the clay have a will to choose. context of Romans 10. *_God does let the clay have a will to choose. You're right. And they choose evil. Every single stinking time. Because that's their nature. That's why He has to change their nature so that they can choose Him. And He doesn't change everyone's nature. Only His elect -- the vessels/pots of mercy._* "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:" Some say that the greek word for fitted suggest that the vessels themselves had part in their fittedness. _*The very use of the metaphor "vessels" necessitates that they had no choice in any of it! God made them, and God uses them for whatever purposes He wants. To argue otherwise is completely asinine.*_ Note: I do not believe God elects people to Hell, He does though for Heaven. _*No one but hyper-Calvinists believes that God elects people to Hell. He sovereignly chooses who will be the Bride of Christ, His elect, by His own free will, not constrained by anything they have done; and all the rest are "passed over," left in their sins -- which is what they deserve anyway.*_

We agree on the first paragraph, then. :) And don't take Christian's post in the wrong way. In the broadest, most general sense, every sin ever was created by God's initial act of creation. But within his creation, he doesn't supernaturally cause us to sin.

When people say "puppet", they think of something that is mindless and controlled by someone else. That doesn't generally come to mind when one says "pot". Granted, pots are mindless, but that's not the first thing that comes to mind. Paul's illustration isn't even trying to make a point about whether God made us in his image with a will and emotions. (Because it is otherwise clear that he did.) Paul's illustration is perfectly suited for his point. I can't think of any point I would use "puppets" to illustrate.

What Christian said. I looked up the Greek word - it means to "repair" or "adjust", obviously referring to the way the potter shapes pots. In this context anyway, the pots themselves cannot possibly be involved.

So perhaps when we're told in James that God doesn't tempt anyone, that's exclusive to humans and doesn't include the one angel that he tempted at the beginning of time.

He still hardened Pharaoh's heart. I would explain that by saying that temptation is the attempt to lure someone into sin manipulatively. God didn't manipulate Pharaoh and try to convince him. He's sovereign and has a will; and that will required that Pharaoh's heart be hardened. When God puts us in tempting situations to test our faith, no one says *that* contradicts James. People just can't wrap their minds around the full concept of God's sovereignty. And that's not a putdown, because neither can we. We just accept that there are things about God's sovereignty that seem unpleasantly strange to us. And that shouldn't surprise us, seeing as we're finite.

It is interesting to note, that God only hardened Pharaoh's heart after Pharaoh himself hardened his own heart.

sigh I have heard this argument so many times, and I'm sure this won't be the last, but it absolutely baffles me, because the text so clearly testifies that this is utterly false. I literally just read the chapters this past Monday, and I saw nothing of the sort! The very first mention in Exodus of any hardening of heart is in 4:21: "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. *But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.*"

What do we have here? A clear affirmation that God does whatever He wants, whenever He wants, for whatever reason He wants, just because He wants to. He doesn't cater to the will of the rebellious pagan. He supersedes it, because it will serve His redemptive purposes. He promises to harden Pharaoh's heart, SO THAT he will not let the people go. He doesn't say, "Yeah, Pharaoh's gonna harden his heart and not let you guys go, and I know that cuz, you know, I can see the future and all, so after he does that, I'm going to REALLY harden his heart as a punishment for not letting you guys go." Not in the slightest! God hardens his heart. God initiates the rebellion. So that He can then punish both Pharaoh and all of Egypt for Pharaoh's stubbornness. So God causes Pharaoh to be stubborn, and then He punishes Pharaoh for being stubborn. Because He can! Because Pharaoh is a rebel who deserves nothing but Hell (let alone a free choice in the matter), and God wants to punish him and all of Egypt for their sins. It's as simple as that. Our God is in the heavens and He does whatever He pleases.

" I looked up the Greek word – it means to "repair" or "adjust", obviously referring to the way the potter shapes pots. In this context anyway, the pots themselves cannot possibly be involved." So then God does make vessels elected for hell?

He makes vessels that He chooses not to use "for honorable use." So, by default, they are used "for common use." And, yes, they end up in Hell for their sins. Not because He elected them for Hell but because He didn't elect them for Heaven.

You shouldn't say that God "elected" sinners for hell. He doesn't specifically choose them for that. He specifically chooses those whom he will save. (Because that is the only specific "choice" that changes anything. If he didn't choose anyone for anything, we'd all go to hell anyway.) But it was always his will that they go to hell to glorify his justice and righteousness. Because his plan did not involve their salvation, it necessarily involved their damnation.

[EDIT: Oh. Christian beat me to it. :P]

WHAT?!?!? (Gotta love emphasis.) What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? (Romans 9:14-24) Thanks, Paul - there it was in our Bibles the whole time. :) Your "emotional" argument tries to lay a guilt trip on God. But God doesn't owe ANYONE salvation. He doesn't owe us a "chance" at salvation, he doesn't owe us anything. We owe _him_ perfect obedience. We shouldn't be surprised that he didn't give everyone a chance, we should be surprised that he gave anyone a chance. Generally, God does love the whole world. And generally, I'm sure he loves mercy more than wrath. (Though how is Psalm 145:8 supposed to prove that...?) But they are both necessary parts of his character. God desires to "show his wrath", and "make known his power", so he endures the "vessels of wrath" who are "prepared for destruction"! On the other hand, he makes known the "riches of his glory" in "vessels of mercy", who are "prepared beforehand for glory". (The reason I keep quoting so much is because I can. Because what I'm saying is exactly what the Bible says.) Your second scenario is silly, to be honest. "I tried really hard, I began the good work, I manipulated you in ways I probably shouldn't have in light of your free will, but you stood in the way. Now it'll never come to completion, because of this stupid deadline. I really wish you had come." That does nothing but limit God's power, and his "right" over the clay.

Wow. What version is that in? It appears (to me) to be just a tad biased… :P

Actually, I pretty much expected you to come back with that passage. I'm familiar with that passage (again, memorized it for Nats :P) but only in the KJV. What surprised me is that the version you used has significantly different language which is harder to interpret differently. Yikes. xP

The only thing I have to offer right now is that I did not say God owes anyone salvation. But He says that He offers it to all.

Even though it may not seem like it, these posts are coming from a guy who is right now trying to decide exactly what he does believe about this issue. In the past several days I've gotten to know your position a lot better. I've seen that Calvinism has good verses to back itself up; but so does Arminianism. I need to process it all. :) (One thing I'm having trouble understanding is how and why, in your view, God's desires (His revealed will) necessarily conflict with His plan (His eternal will). God says He will have mercy on whomever He chooses; He has shown His sovereignty and divine prerogative in the Old Testament by choosing Israel; but He also says that He has no pleasure in the death of the wicked and that He desires all to come to repentance. Is it that God, due to His character, somehow wants two things which necessarily conflict, but one tends to take precedence over the other?)

So, I'm going to be pulling out of this discussion now, for a couple reasons: 1) we're going on a trip, so I won't be able to get on here for a while anyways; 2) even if we weren't leaving, I'm using up a lot of time here; and 3) I'm not firm in one position or the other right now anyways… xP

Thanks a lot for your input. God bless. :)

Matthew