Free Will vs. Predestination

It's crucial to remember that native man is dead. Our once-free will is corrupted by sin so that we are incapable of wanting to or actually choosing God, unless he does something to our hearts first.

May I please see scripture that backs up the claim that we lost our free will after the fall? I'm not saying I necessarily disagree with this, I just have yet to see scripture back this up and would love to investigate further. :)

I'm sorry for repeating the same thing over and over again... Please realize that I certainly AM verifying what I say by the Scriptures. Please give me some verses that hold up your view. WM and I have given you many. Also, I know that men are not perfect, but I tend to rely on, after the Bible, of course, those who have spent their lives studying the Scriptures, authenticating their conclusions by what the Scripture says. Please see this: God CLEARLY states that NO ONE seeks Him--NO ONE goes to Him by their own will. Our wills are controlled by our evil hearts, due to Adam's sin--therefore, we cannot come to God of our own accord. Please realize again that I am using Scripture to back me up: "The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one." (Psalm 14:2-3) "God looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. Every one of them has turned aside; They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one." (Psalm 53:2-3) "Salvation is far from the wicked, For they do not seek Your statutes." (Psalm 119:155 [remember that all men are wicked by nature because of Adam's sin]) "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.'" (Romans 3:10-12) These verses clearly show that no one can ever seek God; please do not ignore these verses! I hope that you will consider this view, because it is the Biblical one! Your brother in Christ, SBG

You're right to say that these Scriptures speak plainly of our helpless state. But I don't see where they say that no one CAN seek after God. I only see that no one DOES seek after God. Just an observation. Could you please provide a scripture reference that says that no person has the ability to seek after God?

That we have lost our free will is a necessary result of the Scriptures you quoted back to me from the mouth of SBG.
More later. Sorry, got to go now.

1Pet. 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Ooh! Ooh! I just thought of a verse that will probably be what you're looking for: Romans 8:7: "the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so."

No, that's not talking directly about seeking God, but certainly seeking God is something God desires for us to do, so if we can't obey His law, we most likely can't seek Him. But, really, I don't see why the Psalms and Romans passages aren't enough to prove that man doesn't seek God. If God's saying that He looks down and doesn't see anyone seeking Him, there's a pretty good chance that that means that we can't seek Him. But even if it doesn't, the very fact that it never happens is enough proof that humans don't do it.

On the other side of things, are you able to present a verse that says that man can seek God?

@Mr. Hancock–Please just look back at WM's previous posts. Those will answer any questions you may have about what he believes concerning this topic. Then tell us how you interpret John 6:44.

@Laura Jenae–These verses, showing that man DOES NOT seek God show that man CAN NOT seek God. They mean the same thing. :) If all men do not seek God, then it is conclusive evidence that they cannot seek God.

In answer to your question about why Christ said "It is finished" if what Octo said ("We still sin because Christ isn't finished saving us") is correct: There are three "salvations" for a Christian, all part of one salvation: past, present, and future. Our past salvation is the justification that took place the moment we were saved, when we died to sin, were saved from hell, and became God's children. Our present salvation is our sanctification, where we are becoming more and more like Christ during our lives on earth, getting rid of as much remaining sin as the Holy Spirit allows until we die. Our future salvation is our glorification, which will occur as soon as we die. We will be immediately sent to heaven, where we will become morally perfect, conformed perfectly to the image of Christ (though we are not gods ourselves–OF COURSE!), and we will worship God forever. Christ said "It is finished" because He had finished "drinking" the cup of God's wrath, which we deserved–here He provided our now-past salvation. Although this answer may be a little rusty, I hope it accurately answers your question.

Thank you, COS! That is exactly what I'm looking for.

Here are a few verses that I found about seeking God:

Deut. 4:29-30
But from there you will SEEK the Lord your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul.
When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice

1 Chron. 22:19
Now set your heart and your soul to SEEK the Lord your God. Therefore arise and build the sanctuary of the Lord God, to bring the ark of the covenant of the Lord and the holy articles of God into the house that is to be built for the name of the Lord.”

1 Chron 28:8-9 Now therefore, in the sight of all Israel, the assembly of the Lord, and in the hearing of our God, be careful to SEEK out all the commandments of the Lord your God, that you may possess this good land, and leave it as an inheritance for your children after you forever.
“As for you, my son Solomon, know the God of your father, and serve Him with a loyal heart and with a willing mind; for the Lord searches all hearts and understands all the intent of the thoughts. If you SEEK Him, He will be found by you; but if you forsake Him, He will cast you off forever.

2 Chron. 15:12-13 Then they entered into a covenant to SEEK the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; and whoever would not SEEK the Lord God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

2 Chron. 31:21 And in every work that he began in the service of the house of God, in the law and in the commandment, to SEEK his God, he did it with all his heart. So he prospered.

Psalm 63:1
O God, You are my God;
Early will I seek You;
My soul thirsts for You;
My flesh longs for You
In a dry and thirsty land
Where there is no water.

Psalm 69:32 The humble shall see this and be glad;
And you who seek God, your hearts shall live.

Psalm 70:4 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
And let those who love Your salvation say continually,
“Let God be magnified!”

Isaiah 58:2 Yet they seek Me daily,
And delight to know My ways,
As a nation that did righteousness,
And did not forsake the ordinance of their God.
They ask of Me the ordinances of justice;
They take delight in approaching God.

Jeremiah 5:“Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;
See now and know;
And seek in her open places
If you can find a man,
If there is anyone who executes judgment,
Who SEEKS the truth,
And I will pardon her.

Amos 5:14 Seek good and not evil,
That you may live;
So the Lord God of hosts will be with you,
As you have spoken.

Matthew 6:33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you.

Luke 12:31
But seek the kingdom of God, and all these things shall be added to you.

Col. 3:1 If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

Ok, that was more than a few. And there were still more that I could have posted. :) And eventually I kind of gave up on capitalizing the word "seek" in every verse. :P

Just to clarify, I'm only asking the questions that I am asking because I have not yet come to a conclusion of what I believe on this issue. That is why I am asking for scripture that can point me in the right direction. :) This discussion has helped me research things on my own, and I plan to keep researching as well as asking questions so that I may accurately interpret the scriptures. :)

@Mr. Hancock--Please just look back at WM's previous posts. Those will answer any questions you may have about what he believes concerning this topic. Then tell us how you interpret John 6:44. @Laura Jenae--These verses, showing that man DOES NOT seek God show that man CAN NOT seek God. They mean the same thing. :) If all men do not seek God, then it is conclusive evidence that they cannot seek God. In answer to your question about why Christ said "It is finished" if what Octo said ("We still sin because Christ isn't finished saving us") is correct: There are three "salvations" for a Christian, all part of one salvation: past, present, and future. Our past salvation is the justification that took place the moment we were saved, when we died to sin, were saved from hell, and became God's children. Our present salvation is our sanctification, where we are becoming more and more like Christ during our lives on earth, getting rid of as much remaining sin as the Holy Spirit allows until we die. Our future salvation is our glorification, which will occur as soon as we die. We will be immediately sent to heaven, where we will become morally perfect, conformed perfectly to the image of Christ (though we are not gods ourselves--OF COURSE!), and we will worship God forever. Christ said "It is finished" because He had finished "drinking" the cup of God's wrath, which we deserved--here He provided our now-past salvation. Although this answer may be a little rusty, I hope it accurately answers your question.

I completely agree with the three salvations. I was just making sure that is what Octo meant. It reminds me of the song "He's Still Working On Me"… anyone remember that song from Sunday School? :)

As for the CAN not or DOES not.. I was simply pointing it out. I just want to be picky with my interpretation, and I was wondering if anyone had ever noticed it or if they had any reasoning behind it. Your answers are helping me investigate further. :)

Wow. You were very thorough. :)

Most of those verses speak of or are spoken by converted people. Thus they have a new heart that is able to seek God. Other times, God is giving the command to seek Him, or He's saying, "If you seek me…." Neither of those necessarily means that the people to whom He's speaking have the ability to seek Him.

God gave commands to Pharaoh that He knew he could not obey. He gave to the Israelites a system of laws which He knew they could not obey in its entirety. And Jesus even said that He spoke in parables "lest they should turn and I would heal them." (Lest meaning, "Just in case…")

Here are some more scriptures:

Ephesians 2:1-6 "And you were DEAD in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were DEAD in our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ - by grace you have been saved - and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus…"
Dead men can't choose.
But when God makes you alive… you choose Him, because He chose you. You're saved by the grace of God making you alive, not by the grace of you choosing God.
Eccl. 7:29 "See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes."
Titus 3:3-5 "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, SLAVES to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit…"
Slaves to sin sin don't choose God. Unless…God chose them first.
John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." Not even choose God? Not even choose God.
Unless… God chooses you first. With God… all things are possible.
I Corinthians 2:14 "The natural person DOES NOT ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God (Christ/the Gospel), for they are spiritually discerned." The natural person has to be made a spiritual person first, then he can understand the things of God, because he has the mind of Christ (as it says later on in that text).
It follows that if the natural person does not accept the gospel, he has no free will; he has lost it because he is a slave to sin.
More later. Got to go now.
Hey, we're at four pages! Way to go!

@Mr. Hancock--Please just look back at WM's previous posts. Those will answer any questions you may have about what he believes concerning this topic. Then tell us how you interpret John 6:44. @Laura Jenae--These verses, showing that man DOES NOT seek God show that man CAN NOT seek God. They mean the same thing. :) If all men do not seek God, then it is conclusive evidence that they cannot seek God. In answer to your question about why Christ said "It is finished" if what Octo said ("We still sin because Christ isn't finished saving us") is correct: There are three "salvations" for a Christian, all part of one salvation: past, present, and future. Our past salvation is the justification that took place the moment we were saved, when we died to sin, were saved from hell, and became God's children. Our present salvation is our sanctification, where we are becoming more and more like Christ during our lives on earth, getting rid of as much remaining sin as the Holy Spirit allows until we die. Our future salvation is our glorification, which will occur as soon as we die. We will be immediately sent to heaven, where we will become morally perfect, conformed perfectly to the image of Christ (though we are not gods ourselves--OF COURSE!), and we will worship God forever. Christ said "It is finished" because He had finished "drinking" the cup of God's wrath, which we deserved--here He provided our now-past salvation. Although this answer may be a little rusty, I hope it accurately answers your question.

I completely agree with the three salvations. I was just making sure that is what Octo meant. It reminds me of the song "He's Still Working On Me"... anyone remember that song from Sunday School? :) As for the CAN not or DOES not.. I was simply pointing it out. I just want to be picky with my interpretation, and I was wondering if anyone had ever noticed it or if they had any reasoning behind it. Your answers are helping me investigate further. :)

I believe the Bible clearly teaches contrary to what you are saying regarding this so-called "progressive sanctification". I'm thankful that it is not by any of our works that we are sanctified, but but by Christ's finished work of dying on the Cross that we are sanctified. We cannot even stand before God on our own merit. Biblical sanctification, (hagiasmos in the Greek), means to be "made Holy", or "set apart as God's", etc. If then, man can "set himself apart", and "make himself Holy", who then is God? For what purpose did Jesus die if we can make ourselves holy? The erroneous doctrine of progressive sanctification puts depraved man higher then God, and is firmly grounded in the sand when it comes to backing it up with Scripture.

Let's look at what the Word of God says about sanctification. In 1 Corinthians 1:2 we read: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" Sanctification here is a perfect passive in the Greek, meaning the sanctification was in the past, completed at a certain time. Furthermore, the passive voice shows it was not a personal effort, but rather as the verse puts it, "sanctified in Jesus Christ".

So we are sanctified at a certain time and date, and we never progress in our knowledge of God and our practical obedience to him, because our sanctification is a one-time deal? I don't think so.
I agree with you that our salvation is not of ourselves. The Scriptures are VERY clear on that point.

But what about this verse? "Work out your salvation with fear and trembling." The command to work is given to the saints (those who have salvation), but as I said earlier, though we do the work to increase in our knowledge and obedience to God, we do that in the strength of and only because of the grace of God in Christ, which we lay hold of through faith.
The command to work out our salvation can only mean that we are to work at being more conformed to the will of God (Romans 12:2) and the image of His Son. In our own strength? BY NO MEANS!!
If there is some bad doctrine called progressive sanctification out there that I haven't heard of, please fill me in.

There may have been some misunderstanding, but I don't think anyone was saying that we do the work of sanctification ourselves and God has nothing to do with it.

No, Octavius, what you described is what has traditionally been understood as "progressive sanctification." I'm not exactly sure why Cowboy4Christ says it's a terrible doctrine…

We are saved from the power of sin (Romans 6:14, "For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace."), and we do "grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." But this does not mean that we are not sanctified the moment we accept Jesus into our heart. As C4C pointed out, our sanctification is spoken of in the Bible as a passive, past event. We ARE sanctified–praise God, he has set us apart and made us holy: "As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us." 1 Cor. 6:11, "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God."

There is a difference between being made holy (sanctified) and growing as a believer. Our sanctification is not "progressive", but our growth in Christ is.

I believe the Bible clearly teaches contrary to what you are saying regarding this so-called "progressive sanctification". I'm thankful that it is not by any of our works that we are sanctified, but but by Christ's finished work of dying on the Cross that we are sanctified. We cannot even stand before God on our own merit. Biblical sanctification, (hagiasmos in the Greek), means to be "made Holy", or "set apart as God's", etc. If then, man can "set himself apart", and "make himself Holy", who then is God? For what purpose did Jesus die if we can make ourselves holy? The erroneous doctrine of progressive sanctification puts depraved man higher then God, and is firmly grounded in the sand when it comes to backing it up with Scripture. Let's look at what the Word of God says about sanctification. In 1 Corinthians 1:2 we read: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" Sanctification here is a perfect passive in the Greek, meaning the sanctification was in the past, completed at a certain time. Furthermore, the passive voice shows it was not a personal effort, but rather as the verse puts it, "sanctified in Jesus Christ".

You are right to say that in the Greek in 1 Corinthians 2, it is talking about a past work. But I don't think that means that sanctification is not progressive. It simply means that the word sanctification in that work is talking about saving faith. At least that's how I would interpret it. That's why we must distinguish in the Greek (as you rightly did) whether the word chosen in our English translation is talking of saving faith, sanctification, or glorified salvation.

Sanctification is solely the work of God. When I get to heaven, and lay my rewards at His feet, I will most definitely will not be saying "Wow, look at all I did for you" but rather, "Wow, look at all that you accomplished in my life!"

Here are some more scriptures: Ephesians 2:1-6 "And you were DEAD in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience - among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were DEAD in our trespasses, MADE US ALIVE together with Christ - by grace you have been saved - and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." Dead men can't choose. But when God makes you alive... you choose Him, because He chose you. You're saved by the grace of God making you alive, not by the grace of you choosing God. Eccl. 7:29 "See, this alone I found, that God made man upright, but they have sought out many schemes." Titus 3:3-5 "For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, SLAVES to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit..." Slaves to sin sin don't choose God. Unless...God chose them first. John 15:5 I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING." Not even choose God? Not even choose God. Unless... God chooses you first. With God... all things are possible. I Corinthians 2:14 "The natural person DOES NOT ACCEPT the things of the Spirit of God (Christ/the Gospel), for they are spiritually discerned." The natural person has to be made a spiritual person first, then he can understand the things of God, because he has the mind of Christ (as it says later on in that text). It follows that if the natural person does not accept the gospel, he has no free will; he has lost it because he is a slave to sin. More later. Got to go now. Hey, we're at four pages! Way to go!

So do we somehow "regain" our free will after we are "saved"? I am starting to see your point, but I still have some issues with it, which I will have to look into.

We don't "regain" or free will to do good or evil, but we now have a heart that is able to do good. Our natural, depraved heart can do nothing but evil without God's help. But after God gives us a new heart, we are able to do good. However, we still struggle against the flesh, so we won't always choose what is right.

We don't "regain" or free will to do good or evil, but we now have a heart that is able to do good. Our natural, depraved heart can do nothing but evil without God's help. But after God gives us a new heart, we are able to do good. However, we still struggle against the flesh, so we won't always choose what is right.

Ok, thank you for that clarification.
Could I see scripture where it says that we are given a "new heart"? I have heard the phrase before, but I would like further scripture references. :)

@Laura – I'm kind of jumping in on the conversation….

…but Ezekiel 36:26 talks about the "new heart".

The exact terminology is in Ezekiel 36:26: "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."

Another word for "a change of heart" or "giving a new heart" is regeneration. This word is found in Titus 3:5: "not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,"

This is also synonymous with being "born again." And I'm sure you've heard that term before. ;) When a person is born again, God raises them from their spiritually dead state, replacing their dead heart of stone with a renewed heart of flesh. The first heart could not obey God's commands. The new heart can.

Col. 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him: Eph. 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Ezek. 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

God will give you a new heart when you get your new man.

Cowboy4Christ–You said, "Our sanctification is not "progressive", but our growth in Christ is." I would like to object–our sanctification IS our growth in Christ. Am I wrong?

I think we have a misunderstanding here.

There are two types of sanctification described in the Bible: positional and progressive sanctification. There have been verses given above that are examples of each.

Positional sanctification describes what happens the moment someone is converted. God sets us apart from the world, unifies us with Christ, and cleanses us, giving us a new heart so that we can do His will.

Progressive sanctification describes the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ, or like someone else said, "growth in Christ." Like the verse Octavius posted, we are to be "working out our salvation." We won't ever become perfect in this life, but we'll generally be becoming more holy.

"It's not perfection, but it's in that direction."

I believe the Bible clearly teaches contrary to what you are saying regarding this so-called "progressive sanctification". I'm thankful that it is not by any of our works that we are sanctified, but but by Christ's finished work of dying on the Cross that we are sanctified. We cannot even stand before God on our own merit. Biblical sanctification, (hagiasmos in the Greek), means to be "made Holy", or "set apart as God's", etc. If then, man can "set himself apart", and "make himself Holy", who then is God? For what purpose did Jesus die if we can make ourselves holy? The erroneous doctrine of progressive sanctification puts depraved man higher then God, and is firmly grounded in the sand when it comes to backing it up with Scripture. Let's look at what the Word of God says about sanctification. In 1 Corinthians 1:2 we read: "Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:" Sanctification here is a perfect passive in the Greek, meaning the sanctification was in the past, completed at a certain time. Furthermore, the passive voice shows it was not a personal effort, but rather as the verse puts it, "sanctified in Jesus Christ".

You are right to say that in the Greek in 1 Corinthians 2, it is talking about a past work. But I don't think that means that sanctification is not progressive. It simply means that the word sanctification in that work is talking about saving faith. At least that's how I would interpret it. That's why we must distinguish in the Greek (as you rightly did) whether the word chosen in our English translation is talking of saving faith, sanctification, or glorified salvation. Sanctification is solely the work of God. When I get to heaven, and lay my rewards at His feet, I will most definitely will not be saying "Wow, look at all I did for you" but rather, "Wow, look at all that you accomplished in my life!"

To clarify:
Biblical sanctification, being "set apart", or "made Holy", is done by Jesus in the past, not ourselves.

At the end of the day, I think we agree, but we are only using different terms. You are referring to what I believe Biblically is the maturity of the Believer, and growing in Grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ (which is progressive). However, I think it's important to realize that this is not our Sanctification.

Ok those were a few of the references which I thought you were talking about.

Ok, more questions. :) So, once you have been given a new heart (assuming you are one of the elect) then what? Could someone please "outline" the salvation process from there? How does one come to faith in Christ according to the Calvinistic viewpoint?

Cowboy4Christ--You said, "Our sanctification is not "progressive", but our growth in Christ is." I would like to object--our sanctification IS our growth in Christ. Am I wrong?

Yes, Biblically there is a distinction here that should not be overlooked.

Please show me the difference. I have been brought up on "sanctification = growth in Christ" and am not about to change quickly.

P.S. You don't have to "blockquote" everything that the person before you said… it always says to whom you were talking at the bottom of your post. :)

I think we have a misunderstanding here. There are two types of sanctification described in the Bible: positional and progressive sanctification. There have been verses given above that are examples of each. Positional sanctification describes what happens the moment someone is converted. God sets us apart from the world, unifies us with Christ, and cleanses us, giving us a new heart so that we can do His will. Progressive sanctification describes the ongoing process of becoming more like Christ, or like someone else said, "growth in Christ." Like the verse Octavius posted, we are to be "working out our salvation." We won't ever become perfect in this life, but we'll generally be becoming more holy. "It's not perfection, but it's in that direction."

There is one sanctification event, when we are "made Holy" and "set apart" by God. Growth in Christ has nothing to do with our sanctification. We are not "becoming more Holy" as you said. (Sounds like a works-based Salvation to me.) We have been made Holy. (Past tense).

Hopefully my reply to COS will shed some light on the subject.

Sanctification in the Greek is a perfect passive. This means that it has happened completely, fully, and totally, in the past. Take for example John 17:17-19: "Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth." Was Jesus progressivly sanctifying himself growing while on earth? That doesn't make much sense to me. We are called saints, holy. God has put away our sins because Jesus paid the penalty for them, and they are now forgotten–completely. We are already holy, not becoming holy.

Whoah, whoah! Were we just accused of a works-based salvation for saying what the Bible says??

We have been made holy in God's eyes, yes! We do not need to become any holier to get to heaven! But our sanctification (which you label differently as "growth in Christ") is growing to be more and more like Christ as we continue in our Christian walk. We will become truly morally perfect when we go to heaven after our earthly death, but as COS said, "It's not perfection, but it's in that direction."

@SavedByGrace

The Bible clearly shows that sanctification is a completed work, (of God), done in the past, and there is nothing we can add to a work of Christ. Please correct me with a verse if I'm wrong.

That said, the Bible talks about growing in Grace and Knowledge, and the maturity of a believer. However it is important to keep the Biblical distinction between this and a finished work of Christ.

Okay. I see what you're coming from, and I agree that what you call our sanctification is ONLY given by Christ.
I think a reformational (and if its reformational, its probably biblical [which it is]) equivalent to that term would be justification. Justification is an act of double-inputation, and refers to our standing before God as judge of our deeds. Firstly, justification is the act of God whereby our sins are imputed to Christ, washing our slate clean of every transgression and writing it on Christ's slate ("he became sin for us"), so that he could bear the punishment of our sin upon himself. But we're not (thank God) left there. Our slate is filled up again, not with works we do, but with Christ's works. That's why He had to live perfectly for 33 years on earth. Otherwise, he could have just came as a full-grown man and been crucified. But no, he had to fulfill the law for us. This imputation of Christ's works to us is what sets us apart and makes us holy, which you would call sanctification. I would choose to call it justification, because I believe sanctification refers to our growing in Christ.
Once justified, we are perfect in our standing before God. Justification cannot be improved upon. We have Christ's righteousness on us, so that we are, in God's eyes, perfect. However, on a practical, day-to-day level, we are (sadly) very far from perfect, and we must work out our salvation with fear and trembling. That is what I would call sanctification, and what you would call, growth in grace.
Agreed?

Well said R4C!

Perhaps we need to clarify our terms…I think we all believe in the growth of a Christian, but does this have anything to do with our salvation? If not, I agree. Sanctification as part of our salvation does not grow, but growth apart from our salvation and sanctification is a reality.

Please Biblically explain sanctification referring to "growing in Christ" as you put it. If one understands Greek grammar at all, they would know that our growth in Christ would not be in the perfect passive voice, (completed by someone in the past), therefore it cannot be sanctification.

Okay Laura, you asked about what happens at salvation. Throughout this, "we" refers to those who are saved.
Well, first off, we were elected to be Christ's redeemed ones before time began in the eternal covenant between the Father and Son. In this covenant, the Son covenanted to come to redeem a certain chosen people known only to God at a certain time in history, and to make them perfect in Him. When the time was fulfilled, Jesus came in time and was born by the power of the Holy Spirit from the virgin Mary (if Jesus had been borne by natural generation i.e. a man and a woman, he would have been in a state of fallenness. But since he was born by supernatural generation, he was not born under the curse of Adam's sin). So he humbled himself, lived perfectly here on earth, and died in our place to take the punishment for our sins.
Now we skip ahead to our time, and we are little rebels running around shaking our fists at God, and then God does something. He works in us so that…

1. We see the reality and damning nature of our sin (through the law, which is mirror to show us our sinfulness). We see ourselves as we really are.
2. We see the holiness and justice of God. We see that God cannot pardon our sins without punishing them. We see God as he really is.
3. We see that God by grace and because of his love has provided a way whereby sinners can come to him. He shows us that Christ came to take away sins and impute his own righteousness, and make his children eventually perfect.
4. We believe on Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, for the glory of God alone. We believe that he alone can take away the wrath of God destined for us.
5. We repent. He works in us a full turn-around. We are (sorry seems inadequate, but I'll use it for lack of a better word) sorry for our sins, and strive (by his grace alone) to obey him, and the work of growth in grace (sanctification) begins.
   That is more a step-by-step of salvation.
   This is a more schematic approach:
   First there's election (predestination), then calling (effectual call of the Gospel when what I described above happens), a result of the call is repentance, justification, and the beginning of sanctification (meaning growth in grace in this instance), then finally glorification.
   WM, COS, and SBG, and any other calvinistically inclined biblicists, correct me if I forgot anything.
   COS did a much better job explaining, Laura, just see his comment.

What about Romans 6:19 "I am speaking in human terms , because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification."
If you define sanctification as our being set apart as holy, then it appears from this text that our presenting our members as slaves to righteousness gets us to that state. No mention of Christ doing anything on our behalf, no mention of his work on the cross. We present our members to righteousness and the result is sanctification.
I think it would be right to say that that does not fit with the rest of scripture. The only other alternative is to say that sanctification is our growth in grace. The whole verse makes perfect sense that way.

I Corinthians 1:30 "He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption." So Christ is our righteousness AND the means by which we are set apart as holy? If he is our righteousness, we are ALREADY set apart as holy, because we are holy! That is redundancy.
But if you see sanctification as growth in grace, then Christ is the one who makes us righteous, and the one who makes us better and better images of Him.

I think where you have it wrong is the meaning of the word sanctification. I do not dispute the Greek grammar. It is past tense, or whatever. But the meaning of sanctification is 'set apart TO BE holy'. We are set apart, I don't dispute that, but we are not yet holy in a practical sense. We were set apart before the foundations of time to be holy. So our sanctification started there. But right now, in our day to day lives, we aren't holy in any sense of the word. Right now, we're just sinners saved by grace trying by grace to grow in grace. But we will be holy when Christ glorifies us in the future. Then, and only then, our sanctification will be complete.

But don't get me wrong here. I'm not saying that positional sanctification is unbiblical. I am just saying that the Scripture teaches practical sanctification as well. There are times (like those above and SBG's below) where it would not make sense to interpret the word sanctification in the text to mean positional sanctification (as I have stated before and COS did below, another word meaning the same thing and with greater clarity would be justification).

@ Laura:

Salvation proceeds like so: The Holy Spirit regenerates us, giving us a new heart that can see sin, be sorry for sin, and turn from sin. Consequently, we turn from sin and trust in Christ for salvation. That results in our justification by God the Father. At the same moment, we are given the righteousness of Christ through imputation, and we are positionally sanctified, set apart as one of God's children, holy and blameless in His sight. Also at this time, the Bible describes our adoption and redemption.

Although our eternal destiny has now been secured, we are still commanded by Paul in Philippians 2:12 to "work out our salvation." This is another aspect of our sanctification. As one theologian has put it, we are told to act like we are. We are sanctified in God's sight, but we work it out on a daily basis by striving to live a holy life. This doesn't make us any more saved, but it demonstrates to an outside world that we are saved.

We still have the sinful flesh to bug us, so we have to consciously work at becoming more holy and more conformed to the image of Christ.

And finally, after death, we are fully conformed to the image of Christ and made holy and blameless in the fullest sense, at our glorification, and our redemption from our fallen body and fallen world.

Great job, Octo, on that post–I wouldn't have explained it nearly as well. :)

And, C4C, if you're still not convinced about the meaning of the word "sanctification," how do you explain a passage like 1 Peter 3:15a:
"But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord." That seems to fit with your definition, but take it into context. Peter makes clear at the beginning of the letter and throughout that he is speaking to a Christian audience. Why then would he be telling them to do something which they have already done?

Thank you both Octo and COS for your answers. I do agree with the process of salvation as you have explained it, and I have to say that it is one of the things I was most concerned about. :)

I'm still not sure that I yet accept regeneration coming BEFORE repentance, or Irresistible Grace (as I well know must come, as a result of a new heart). But I shall keep digging. :)

I'm still not sure that I yet accept regeneration coming BEFORE repentance, or Irresistible Grace.

Actually, I would say that Irresistible Grace is rather necessary for salvation–if God did not "forcefully" change our hearts to WANT Him and His salvation (and since we now want this, the "forceful" change is not at all something we "accept unwillingly"), we would not ever be saved! Since we are so incapable of seeking God, He must call us with His Irresistible Grace; we would not come to Him alone.

P.S. Octo, you were actually right. I was mixing up "regeneration" with "salvation" in my original post, which I edited to what you see now. Sorry! :)

I knew there was something I got mixed up on!
No, I did not mean it that way.
It all happens almost at the same time, so its hard to really delineate what comes when. COS did a much better job than I did.

Wow! I leave for a few hours due to actually having to do work and home responsibilities, and two additonal pages are added! What more can I add that hasn't already been said? And yet, I do have some replies:

@Mr. Hancock: No, I don't agree with your statement. There. I said it! Now, interpret John 6:44.

@Cowboy4Christ: @COS laid it out best with his brief treatise on Positional Sanctification, which is what you keep referring to as the totality of our Sanctification, and Progressive Sancitification, which @Octo has articulated well in his "practical" terminology. However, I do see your point, and agree with you that man has NOTHING to do in fueling this "growing in Christ" process. Philippians 1:6 tells us "…He who began a good work in you will complete it until the Day of Jesus Christ." The ongoing work of sanctification is powered by the Holy Spirit, Who empowers us to do that which we were never able to do before: seek God, do good for Him, be ambassadors for Him, kill sin, battle our old man, etc., etc.

Now, @C4C, I and others have given you a layman's explanation of progressive sanctification. Please don't force us to have the bring the "big guns" in. If I have to pull our pastor into this, you will witness some of the lengthiest posts ever seen on MemVerse. If anyone thinks I write long posts, "you ain't seen nothin' yet!" He eat, drinks, breathes, and sleeps this stuff. We just try to catch the crumbs that fall from his pulpit. (And, no, I am not idolizing the man, but he is a giant when it comes to matters theological. I am a giant in all things trivial and worthless.)

@Laura Jenae: You asked (at least I think it was you) in a previous post about where in the Bible after Genesis 1-3 it says that Free Will was lost when Adam fell, and I'd like to respond with a couple things –

1. Just as it says no where that we had Free Will in the Garden of Eden (we can only deduce Adam & Eve did), so there's no smoking gun passage that directly states: "Man no longer has Free Will." However,

2. We find, even 3-4 chapters after Eden in Genesis, many passages that reveal man's wicked and depraved state. Some bloggers (or are we called "forumers" now?) re-quoted Psalm 14 & 53 and Romans 3, as well as Psalm 119, but I'll also point out Genesis 6:5,12; 8:21; Psalm 51:5; Proverbs 14:12; 16:25; 20:24; Ecclesiastes 8:11; 9:3; Jeremiah 17:9 – All of these point out that man is incapable of doing good, which would indicate he possesses NO free will to choose good.

(As an aside: the doctrine of Total Depravity alone destroys all of the world's false religions, because they are all works-based systems. You show me a man who rejects Total Depravity, and I'll show you someone who subscribes, or is susceptible, to the belief that man can, or must, do something in his own power to be saved or reach enlightenment.)

@COS, @SBG & @Octo: Well done! I think you'd make your Pastor proud, as much as you make your parents proud at least. Although @SBG needs to turn down the passion a notch or two. (You're SO like your mother!)

WretchedMan, I don't get your view. You said the following (on the 1st page) earlier in reply to me saying "God doesn't force people to become Christians."

WM: "Very true. And election and irresistible grace are not forced."

Where do you disagree on the statement: "All can be saved, but God only chooses the elect to motivate in salvation. Those who are not the elect will never try to follow God. The elect can still deny God."

Drum roll… Now for John 6:44. First, a couple things to remember.

1) Context is always important when interpreting scripture

2) The Bible never disagrees with itself.

Now for the rest:

1) Nowhere in John 6:44 does it say that God forces an 'elect' to become Christians.

2) The contexts says in John 6:35 "And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." We have to come to Him.

3) Since Jesus is talking about coming to Him as the bread of life first, it means the same thing as James 4:8 "Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded." God is holding out salvation. When we reach out and grab on, then He will draw us to Him, as in John 6:44.

4) God has given everyone of us a conscience (Romans 2:16), which He uses to convict everyone. People can harden themselves to their conscience. However, God has given them a chance, and they have denied it if they ignore their conscience.

Now your turn. Explain John 3:16, and why God would love the whole world, but only save the elect? Why does it say whosoever, if only the elect can do it?

The issue of God's sovereignty versus human responsibility applies to all areas of life, not just salvation, so let me ask it this way: If a child is born out of wedlock, did the parents sin, or is it not their fault because they were predestined to do that? On the other side of the coin, is the child's existence a mistake, or did God's plan from the beginning of time include that child?

It seems clear to me in Scripture that God is perfectly sovereign; absolutely everything is predestined from the dawn of time. It is equally clear that humans are responsible for their own choices. In my example, the parents' action was sinful, but the child's existence was always part of God's plan. How these two truths fit together is something I cannot begin to understand, but the Bible does not allow for denying either of them.

Woops! I didn't read the latest posts before answering the topic question. I see the discussion has moved way beyond what I said. Sorry about that!

Okay, let's try this again, Mr. Hancock.

Interpret John 6:44. (You did not interpret it, you simply explained what you thought it meant and used a couple other verses (weakly) to support your explanation. Remember: no contradictions & no additons. You ADDED other stuff to 6:44 from other passages <that you're wrongly interpreting, too> You are still not comprehending the difference between Imperative statements in Scripture and Indicative . John 6:35 & James 4:8 are INDICATIVE statements, not Imperatives. Hermeneutics. Hermeneutics. HERMENEUTICS!!)

Interpret John 6:44. Break it down, phrase by phrase, and tell us what it means that it is saying, especially about, you know, the Father and us in our unregenerate state.

As for your question about John 3:16, I defer to our ongoing, just-as-fun discussion over in the "Universal Atonement vs. Particular Redemption" Forum. Your inquiry is addressed over there.

John 6:44. John 6:44. John 6:44. John 6:44. John 6:44.

Rather than continue this discussion, this will be my final post in this forum for a while. This conversation (between WM and me) is going nowhere (and is thus purposeless, or vain), and I have other responsibilities to fulfil.

II Timothy 2:16. But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

Thank you

Mr. Hancock, I will again attempt to show you the errors of your logic, even though you may not ever read this post.

Since Romans 3:10-12 (yes, I am a very broken record on this) says that there is "no one who seeks God," then man cannot come to God, even if God provides salvation, which He does. So then, we must be saved apart from our own choosing. God is the only One who can work in our hearts to cause us to take His open gift. But this is not "forced"– this word implies unwillingness on our part. Although we would be unwilling otherwise, God graciously makes us willing–so it is not "forced." However, if, by "force," you mean that God makes us receive salvation–we do not do it ourselves–then yes, this is what we are saying, since the Bible says it. Saying otherwise would contradict the Bible.

P.S. I would like to say that we are not being "profane," nor are we "babbling." We are attempting to sort through Scripture to find the truth. I know that you do not believe that this is profane or babbling.

P.P.S. Are you trying to dodge interpreting John 6:44? Either way, when you return, please remember to do it. (Though I'm sure WM will remind you quite clearly.) :)

Your brother in Christ,

SBG