Free Will vs. Predestination

So are you saying that all this conversation has been profane and vain…?

I am sorry that you feel that way, Mr. Hancock.

But I have to speak the truth in love: That wall you're continually running into is of your own design.

An honest rendering of John 6:44 (and a host of other verses) leads anyone (including myself so many years ago) to this inescapable conclusion:

"No one" (no unregenerate human being)

"can" (total inability)

"come" (answer His general call to salvation)

"to Me" (Jesus)

"unless the Father" (the Author of the Redemptive Plan in eternity past, as well as the One who presents the elect to His eternally begotten Son, Jesus Christ, as His eternal possession)

"who sent Me" (Jesus Christ willingly submitted to the Father's plan, though both are equal in every way, coming to earth as "sinful flesh" to propitiate the Father's wrath and redeem His reward, the elect)

"draws him;" (the effectual call that quickens the spiritually dead and re-births those who were already physically born)

"and I will raise him up" (Christ will unite physical bodies, which will be perfected and glorified, with their eternal spirits/souls)

"at the last day." (at Christ's Second Coming)

No other passages can twist or contort this verse to say anything else. All other seemingly contradictory verses must conform to the non-negotiable truth of this (and many other similar) verse. Only the doctrine of Election successfully does this, which is the essence of proper hermeneutics.

Take care and ponder.

First off, I want to commend you all for your obvious countless hours of time spent studying God's Word. I am humbled to be involved in a discussion with people possessing such a wealth of Biblical knowledge, and thank you for bearing with me and probably foolish questions.

@Octavius: You said:

"I think where you have it wrong is the meaning of the word sanctification. I do not dispute the Greek grammar. It is past tense, or whatever. But the meaning of sanctification is 'set apart TO BE holy'. We are set apart, I don't dispute that, but we are not yet holy in a practical sense."

When Christ died on the Cross, Jesus' blood payed it ALL. In God's eyes, we were made Holy 100%. We can do nothing more, no good works, etc., can make us more Holy–we are already completely Holy through Christ! Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain." I could quote so many more verses and still be just beginning to scratch the surface of the teaching found clearly throughout Scripture that we cannot make ourselves Holy in the sight of God. Isaiah 64:6 says that "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags".

Progressive sanctification teaches we really don't need Jesus: we can make ourselves Holy by being good people! Galatians 5:4: "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.".

The modern Church heresy of progressive sanctification takes the focus off Christ, and on ourselves. My friends, don't you understand that it is "by grace are ye saved through faith; and that NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is the gift of God: (Ephesians 2:8)?

Octavius mentioned a misunderstanding of the Word sanctification. I agree that there indeed is one. Sanctification, (being set apart or made Holy), has been done by God. That said, as a believer we mature, and grow in grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. I believe this is what you are incorrectly referring to as sanctification.

At the end of the day it all comes down the to question of how much we need Jesus. Are we born pretty good, and can work to make ourselves better and better, more and more Holy, and hope we're at a point of uphill climb if we were to die? Or what if we're at a point of downhill "sanctification" as you call it? My friends, I hope you are beginning to see the importance of the fact that we cannot sanctify ourselves. I once heard the analogy of a man looking through a pile of trash when he spotted on old, battered brass pot that caught his eye. The man picked up the pot and set it aside as his, and cleaned it. The man sanctified it, (set it apart as his) and made it Holy at that point in time.

Hebrews 10:10: "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Thank God sanctification was "once", perfect passive voice in the Greek, (completed by someone at a certain time, in the past). There is nothing we can do to add or subtract to Christ's finished work of dying on the cross, paying or for our sins with his own blood and making us 100% Holy through the blood of Jesus Christ.

No one is saying that we are not 100% holy and blameless in God's sight right now. That's set in stone. That fact cannot be changed. Positional sanctification happens at salvation, and it can never be reversed. We are "set apart for holy purposes" entirely after our conversion.

That said, on a PRACTICAL level (key word: PRACTICAL), we are very far from holy, and we are plagued by sin every day. Thus, every day, we, out of the new heart that God has given us, work together with the Holy Spirit to be conformed to the image of Christ. This is what is theologically referred to as progressive sanctification.

No, our salvation is not of our own power. Even our progressive sanctification is not our efforts. It is the Holy Spirit working through us. And yet Paul still commands us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Would you please address that verse, C4C and stop saying that we're trying to add works to the gospel? And please don't call our position "heresy" when you don't fully understand it. Heretics go to Hell, so unless you're saying that we are damned as a result of believing in this doctrine, please stop using the word "heresy." :)

By the way, just because the Bible never refers to this doctrine we're referring to as "sanctification" doesn't mean that it can't be labeled as such. The Trinity is a word never used in the Bible, but we still use it to describe the triune nature of God. Progressive sanctification is the technical term that theologians use to refer to our growth in Christ and our conforming to His image. It is not unorthodox.

"Now your turn. Explain John 3:16, and why God would love the whole world, but only save the elect? Why does it say whosoever, if only the elect can do it?"

@Mr. Hancock: I think a closer look at the Greek in John 3:16 sheds a lot of light on the correct Biblical interpretation. Literally, if you look at the straight Greek of John 3:16 it reads: God did so love the world, that His Son (the only begotten) He gave, that every one who is believing in him shall not perish, but may have everlasting life. Note the "who is believing" there, those who God has begun a good work in, not generally what we would think of when we read "whosoever".

Also, to answer the question: "Does God force the elect to become Christians". We often overlook the fact the God determines the means to the end. Meaning that God controls the outcome, and also controls how the outcome is achieved. God doesn't always just force the elect to realize he has died for them like he did Paul, but uses means such as the teaching of the Word, evangelizing, etc. I hope this helps.

I'm short on time but one comment:

The Arminian rebuttal to the doctrine that regeneration precedes faith usually starts with the exact meaning of the word 'draw' in John 6:44. That's where exegesis descends into semantics. Does 'draw' imply irresistible compulsion or not?

@COS: You said: "…Paul still commands us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Would you please address that verse(?)"

If you look at this passage in context, I believe it is self-explanatory. The very next verse: "For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" clarifies. That said, there are many other warning passages in the Bible. Knowing that God is in control and not only controls the end, but the means to get there, couldn't these passages be part of God's plan to keep believers in the faith, (though they will never fall from it)? I hope this makes sense.

There's a difference between a word like the "Trinity" that does not occur in the Bible and is used to describe a Biblical Union, and a word that does occur and the Bible with a very clear meaning. Call it you what you may, besides sanctification, as I believe that takes away from what Christ did on the cross if we can make ourselves Holy on our own merit–let me ask a question if that's okay. Sanctification, (hagiasmos in the Greek), literally means to "be set apart, or made Holy." (Furthermore, it's in the past perfect voice, meaning it was completed in the past at a certain time, and is 100%, totally, complete.) Can we set ourselves apart and make ourselves Holy?

Ah, but it doesn't just say "whosoever." It says "whosoever believes."

I do believe that whosoever believes is not going to perish and will receive everlasting life. It's just that only the elect will believe, because only they will have a new heart that is able to believe.

@Andy:

"helkuo" is the Greek word for "draw" in John 6:44. The same word is also used in Acts 21:30" "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and drew him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut." I think irresistible is not even strong enough to describe this type of being "drawn".

@COS: You said: "...Paul still commands us to "work out our salvation with fear and trembling." Would you please address that verse(?)

Sure. Philippians 2:12. The next verse clarifies that it is God Who works in us, allowing us to work out our salvation. So it is not really us working, but Him working through us, as I said before.

Sanctification, (hagiasmos in the Greek), literally means to "be set apart, or made Holy." (Furthermore, it's in the past perfect voice, meaning it was completed in the past at a certain time, and is 100%, totally, complete.) Can we set ourselves apart and make ourselves Holy?

Actually, "sanctified" means "to be set apart or made holy." Sanctification, in its noun form, just by adding the "tion" part, means "the process of being sanctified," implying that it's an ongoing experience. As I stated before, we do not make ourselves holy. At. All. Please stop asking me that. ;)

Yes we were made 100%, totally, completely holy at our salvation. We were. We were. We were. You don't have to doubt that I believe that. But do you honestly believe that right now you are perfectly pure and without sin? I think not. Thus we are in a continual battle to become more holy until the final Day of Redemption when we will be made totally perfect and complete.

Please tell me how you can explain the fact that being Sanctified is a past perfect in the Greek, and can still be "ongoing" as you put it?

In God's eyes right now we are perfectly pure and without sin, yes. Jesus' blood covered it all. We are 100% sanctified and made Holy. I agree that there was a battle for our Holiness, and that battle was won on Calvary and I'm thankful for that.

Galatians 2:21: "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

So are you saying that in your day-to-day life, right now, you feel like you are totally perfect and blameless? I know the battle against sin was won on the cross, but sin still exists in our flesh. We dwell in fallen bodies in a fallen world around other sinful, fallen people. We do battle against sin.

I didn't say that "sanctified" had two meanings. I said "sanctified" had one meaning while "sanctification" had a different one. You gave the wrong definition to "sanctification," so I was clarifying.

The same word for 'draw' is used in John 12:32:

"But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”

Since in this usage it is referring to 'all men' it would be difficult to press the idea of it being irresistible.

Along the lines of God drawing all men to him: Romans 14:11: "For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." In other words, there are going to be some bruised knees on Judgement day.

Why can't it still be irresistable? Just because he's talking about all men this time doesn't mean that it can't still be an irresistable drawing. Obviously men won't resist it, because He says it's going to happen.

So are you saying that in your day-to-day life, right now, you feel like you are totally perfect and blameless? I know the battle against sin was won on the cross, but sin still exists in our flesh. We dwell in fallen bodies in a fallen world around other sinful, fallen people. We do battle against sin. I didn't say that "sanctified" had two meanings. I said "sanctified" had one meaning while "sanctification" had a different one. You gave the wrong definition to "sanctification," so I was clarifying.

Through the blood of Jesus I believe we are totally perfect and blameless in his sight, yes.

1 Peter 1:2: Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." Same Greek word, same past perfect tense. Could you explain where you get two meanings, (Biblically)?

I only just saw your reply to my comment (Sorry!). I didn't mean that we are saved by anything we have done. I was just saying that we are not saved by accepting Christ into our hearts. We are saved when the Lord shows us our sin and our need of a Savior. And we are to humbly come to Him in repentance and put our full trust in Him, and Him alone. Sorry if I indicated something false. I certainly didn't mean to.

@God's Maiden of Virtue: No, I totally agree with you and was only meaning to add a quick point essentially in agreement with what you had said.

I'm going to start a new topic for this so we can stop getting in the way of the free will vs. predestination discussion. :)

Here's another text that debunks the notion of free-will in fallen sinners.
John 1:12-13 "But to all who did receive him, he gave the right to become children of God who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
"To all who did receive him…" shows that no one who follows Jesus command to seek, ask, and knock will be refused. These are given the "right to become children of God." At this point, the text would seem to indicate the if we receive, God is bound to give us the right to become children of God. But look further. "…who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God." This shows that it is by the will of God that any will receive Him and thus become children of God. The condition to becoming a child of God is receiving. But this receiving is of God's will, not man's. So, necessarily, it is only by the will of God that anyone can have the power to receive and thus become a child of God.

In verse 18 of the same chapter, John writes, "No one has ever seen God; the only God , who is at the Father's side, he has made him known."
Knowing God is shown in this text to be something that NO man can do. Unless… "the only God, who is at the Father's side…has made him known."

Another verse that supports election is John 6:35-39 "Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." Verse 37 shows without doubt that all who the Father has chosen will come. And all who come will be accepted. But no one will come unless they have been chosen (given to the Son). The passage shows that EVERYONE who looks on the Son and believes in him will have eternal life. What a wonderful gospel message! But it also teaches that all those who look on the Son and believe in Him were given to the Son by the Father (elected unto salvation). So only the elect look and believe on the Son. But we do not know who the elect are, so we proclaim to the world the free offer of the gospel: "whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst." And we also must teach and proclaim (for it is in the Scriptures) that: "All that the Father gives me will come to me…", necessarily implying that all who the Father does not give to the Son will not come.

If you're still not convinced…check this out.
Romans 9:6-24 - "But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, 7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” 8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. 9 For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” 10 And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— 12 she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13 As it is written, “JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED.”

14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? BY NO MEANS! 15 For he says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I WILL HAVE COMPASSION” 16 So then it depends NOT ON HUMAN WILL or exertion,[b] but on GOD, WHO HAS MERCY. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then HE HAS MERCY ON WHOMEVER HE WILLS, and he hardens whomever he wills.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But WHO ARE YOU,O MAN, TO ANSWER BACK TO GOD? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 HAS THE POTTER NO RIGHT OVER THE CLAY, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Pretty straightforward, isn't it?

Notice that Paul uses Scripture to answer the objections in the text.
He isn't going to argue. He just gets the big guns out in front and silences the objections.

God's mercy is shown in Christians (the elect), vessels of mercy for honorable use, and His justice is shown in the reprobate, vessels of wrath for dishonorable use. Thereby is His "name proclaimed in all the earth."

Or, as Voddie Baucham so delicately paraphrases the pivotal question in this text:

"WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE?!?"

We are the clay. He is the Potter. 'nuff said.

Great verses, Octo! (I wonder how you thought of them?? :P)

Great summary, Wretched Man!

Yeah, really!

@ Calvinists - On the "Can you loose your salvation" forum, WretchedMan said the following.

"It's also no wonder why Paul admonishes the Corinthians (and us) to examine ourselves or that Jesus told so many parables about false converts."

How does a Calvinist explain this? Why would we examine ourselves (an action on our part) if only the elect can have salvation and God forces those elect to become Christians?

@ Daniel, We make our election sure. I am kind of a little child and do not understand all of what the Lord tells us in His Scriptures. What I do know is this that there is no good thing in me at all. That Christ died on the cross to give me salvation and forgiveness for my sins past present and future. He has made a covenant with me through the cross and I am safe in Him. I also know that there is no work that I can do to obtain eternal life. Again, I don't understand the way God works but I must examine myself by the Word of God and His scriptures to prove every work that I do. Awhile bearing in mind that my salvation is definitely not of myself or of anything that I can do in my own strength. And that while a Christian any good thing that I do I do of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ who loved me and gave Himself for me. Also, I am not sure how anyone can resist an all powerful God.

Your Brother in Christ, GB

We examine ourselves to see if we are bearing fruit which the elect will bear. We "make our election sure" or "make sure that we are elect" by examining our lives to see if we show evidence of being a true Christian. The action has nothing to do with our salvation. It merely looks internally to see if we are saved.

You totally crack me up, @Hancock!

The elect are forced into salvation as much as a dead man is forced back to life. You can't really "force" a dead or inanimate object to do anything.

Did Frosty the Snowman (yes, your retorts have gotten so silly, we must pull in ol' Frosty) complain when he, the inanimate snowman, was brought to life by some magical hat? NO! Why? Because, though he was dead and knew no other way to exist, when he was brought to life (BY NO MERIT OR EFFORT OR CHOICE OF HIS OWN NOR "FORCE" BY SOME PUSHY OUTSIDE POWER SOURCE), he felt alive for the first time and never wanted to go back.

So, as we tried to demonstrate through the Lazarus example, Lazarus had no ability to know, think, feel, NOTHING, because he was dead, D - E - A - D. He couldn't be forced to do anything, because he had lost all ability to respond.

Ok. Ok. Let's go this route. You can't deny this one. Did your mother FORCE you to be born? Is anyone FORCED to be born? NO. God formed you in the womb for the sole purpose of being born. Sure, some babies never make it to delivery, which is ordained by God. But the majority of babies forming in the womb are created to be born. It's not a FORCED situation!

The same is to be said of the elect. God the Father chose them in eternity past and gave them to His Son as a love gift. He's already ordained the day of each elect person's birth. It's not a FORCED thing. God created them to be born again. And unlike physical births, where man can come in, all still under God's providence, and abort the baby in the womb, or some fallen aspect of the mother or baby can cause a miscarriage, NO spiritual birth can ever be thwarted. All whom God the Father has ordained to be born again WILL be born again.

And just like all physical babies borne into this physical world who never try to re-enter the womb because they feel FORCED to come out, there's also NO resistance by the elect when God pours out His grace and births that newborn baby into His kingdom.

How in the world can you continue to call any of this FORCED?!(unless you're just trying to get us to laugh, which is working if you are. Not laugh at you, but laugh at your seeming obstinance. It's amazing!)

Here's three more arguments against free will in fallen humans.

1. The apostle John repeatedly makes the analogy of our native state being one of darkness, and he describes God as light. He says that we refuse to come to the light, lest our deeds be exposed. (That is an argument in itself, but not my main one.)
   Think about a dark room. No matter what the dark room does, it cannot become full of light unless light comes in. It cannot WILL light to come in, but the light must come in of its own accord. If the shutters are opened in this dark room, the light comes in. The light does not first present itself before the darkness and ask it whether or not the darkness wills the light to come in. The light comes in, for darkness has no power against the true embodiment of light (God)!
   If the light is coming in, it is coming in, and it will make the darkness into light. If God calls a person, that person is saved, and God will make the darkness in that person into light. This is the doctrine of God's effectual call.
   In the analogy of the dark house, this is how salvation works: the keyhole is opened so that a small beam of light shines in through it into the room and reveals by contrast the true nature of the darkness.
   This would be the Spirit of God using the law to show us how dark our hearts really are. It shines the beam of perfection upon us, and we see that we fall short, irredeemably short. We did not will that the beam of God's law would shine upon us, indeed, we shun by nature any such thing. But when the Spirit applies the law to our hearts, that person will see God's standard of acceptance (perfection) and his own inability to satisfy it, and thus the result of his inability (damnation).
   After a sinner rightly sees his sin and God's holiness, he is in the perfect place to receive the Gospel. Is this reception of his own will, the result of his own choice? Yes! But only because God first made his will able to choose Him. He never would have chosen God unless God had renewed his will, and made him alive again. He would by nature have refused even after seeing his own wickedness, God's holiness, and the result of his wickedness, vis., damnation. It is only when God rejuvenates us that we are able to choose Him.
   Our hand opens the door, but the Spirit's hand is guiding and leading our own weak and helpless hand to turn the knob and let Christ come in. The Spirit's hand empowers ours with life, so that, by His grace, we can open the door.

2. My second argument.
   Suppose for a moment that rebellious, wretched, hell-bound sinners do indeed have a free will, to choose God or to reject Him. Suppose with me that their will has been unaffected by the fall, by sin. (This is a purely hypothetical argument)
   What then does this freedom of will accomplish? What if they can choose God? That does not help them! Their heart is still in love with sin, their hand is still stuck in it, and no amount of willing can change either heart or hand! If we did choose God, we would not even then be able to come to him, to love him, or to follow his commandments, for our heart and hands, our affections and our actions, are corrupted by sin. So then our choice does nothing to help us. A free will does nothing for a sinner, for the sinner must also have a free heart and a free hand, a heart that can love God, and hands that can obey Him, in order to come savingly to Him.
   So we see thus that all three are necessary for salvation: a freed will, a freed heart, and a freed hand. And only God can free those. By sin, every part of us, every faculty, is corrupted. Not any part is totally corrupted, but every part is partially corrupted. We cannot choose God (no free will), we do not want to choose Him (no free heart), and we live in rejection of Him (no free hands). Only God can free our will, heart, and hands, and He has, blessed be He, done so in the case of his redeemed ones.

3. Free will destroys the biblical doctrine of radical corruption. Sin corrupted EVERY part of the human, either will, heart, mind, hands, soul, body, or whatever else… EVERYTHING! To say that, somehow, our will escapes this corruption, is to deny what the Bible says about human depravity and the far-reaching effects of sin. Those who support this doctrine support the heretical idea that there is something good, something that has remained uncorrupted by sin, in depraved, fallen man. You may not have thought about it that way before, and you may even have said the very opposite, but if you TRULY believe that our will is still free, you believe that there is something good in fallen man, and you deny radical corruption.
   The idea of us choosing God also puts man above God. You say "God puts his gospel before us, and it is up to us to choose whether we will follow him or not." It puts God at the beck and call of man, which is, quite frankly, rather blasphemous. It implies that God has no power over his creation, but is bound to obey the will of the clay that he has formed.
   And also, if we can will ourselves into the kingdom of God, we can also will ourselves out of the kingdom, which denies another biblical doctrine, vis., the preservation of the saints (God's people).

The ramifications of this doctrine are many, and they are not good. What I have described above, though perhaps harsh, is the necessary outcome of true belief in man's free will. I am not saying that you believe those things, but if you say that man has a free will, then you are in effect saying that those things must be true as well. And if you don't believe those things, then I would reevaluate if you want to think that man has a free will.

Cogitate about it.

@ COS - If it is as you said it, since we can't choose to be elect, it would be purposeless to examine ourselves and find that we aren't the elect, because we can't do this on our own (according to Calvinistic theology).

@ Octo - I explained some about those points earlier, and I do not wish to go into them further, as I see that would be pointless. If you would like to see my reply to those, just look at some of the previous posts on this forum.

@ WM

1) WM said, "You totally crack me up, @Hancock!" You have made many other similar statements. If this is a debate on the Bible, why do we need statements like this?

2) Why change the words? Having no choice is the same as being forced, whether you like it or not.

3) You never fully answered my question. If God does it all on His own for us, and we don't do anything, why would we need to "examine ourselves" to make sure of our salvation?

4) Read John 1:12

You would still examine yourself, because you don't know for sure if you're one that God has called and elected. Why else would Peter tell us to "make your calling and election sure"?

As for John 1:12, I'm not positive, but I think we already addressed that verse. "Yet to all who received Him, to those who believed in His Name, He gave the right to become children of God." How is that inconsistent with our views? Whoever receives Him and believes in His Name will receive the right to become a child of God. And they can only do those things if their hearts have been changed.

Mr. Hancock, you are right, we have no choice when God "forces" us to want Him. And what exactly is the matter with that? The Bible clearly states, as I have said many times before, that we do not choose God, period. Therefore, God needs to take action in order for us to be saved. And, thankfully for us, He did! Glory be to Him!
And as for John 1:12, that is completely harmonizable with our view. Yes, God gives the right to become children of God to those who believe in His name. But, filtered through the rest of Scripture, we see that this must be of God's doing, or it would not happen at all. We cannot "choose" God, even if He "motivates" us to do so. We are complete slaves to our sinful nature until God saves us and makes us slaves to Him, our loving and caring Master. I'm sorry, but saying that we choose God is getting awfully close to saying that we do something to save ourselves, and therefore God does not get all of the glory!

@ Daniel Hancock:

Also, you could just read to the next verse, John 1:13, which says that those who are saved "were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." So it's not by our free will that we choose God and are born again, but it is by God's will and God's choice.

You said:
"@ Octo - I explained some about those points earlier, and I do not wish to go into them further, as I see that would be pointless."
Yes, I agree, that would be pointless. Sorry if this is blunt, but you can't back up your position with Scripture that disagrees with our position.

"2) Why change the words? Having no choice is the same as being forced, whether you like it or not."

I must here repeat: Dead men can't choose God. We CAN"T choose. We are dead.
We must, like Lazarus, come out of our spiritual grave when God calls us. We can't resist. We don't have that power. So we must come.
If Jesus forced Lazarus out of the grave, then yes, God forces us to
become Christians.
We don't just " have no choice", we CAN'T choose.

"3) You never fully answered my question. If God does it all on His own for us, and we don't do anything, why would we need to "examine ourselves" to make sure of our salvation? "

Who said "we don't do anything"? WE STILL CHOOSE GOD!!!!!!
But we can only choose Him IF HE MAKES US ALIVE FIRST!!!!!!!!! God does it all, but that does not deny the reality and sincerity of our actions.
From our finite human perspective, we DO need to make sure that we are walking in the truth, a sign of being truly born again. We can't make our salvation any more sure in God's eyes, but we can certainly be more assured of salvation personally and practically. That's what the text is talking about: self-examination, making sure we are following in Christ's footsteps, making ourselves sure of our salvation.
Have you ever had doubts about your salvation? I know I have. And when I do, the way to come out of it is to examine myself for growth in grace, for love for Christ, etc., which is "make[ing] sure of our[my] salvation."

"4) Read John 1:12"
Read John 1:13

@Mr. Hancock, I make statements like "you crack me up!" because you make me chuckle with how much you ignore what I write, but then ask questions that I've already answered.

It's almost like you're conceding that I've satisfactorily answered your arguments and defended my position well; but then you'll just keep asking the same questions or making the same statements as if I or we have never posted anything in response. Baffling!

So, again, why do you keep using the "force" argument (and, no, I don't mean the George Lucas-inspired, Jedi Knight religion, midichlorians "force)??

Jesus Christ said, "Ye MUST be born again." He's making an indicative statement, not giving Nicodemus a how-to-get-saved lesson, which is why Nicodemus responded with "How can this be?" rather than "Show me how." Jesus didn't balk. He further explains that being born again is the work of the Holy Spirit.

So it is with our physical birth!

No one ever asks, "Please show me how to be born." It's beyond our control! It's not by force; it's what that baby in the womb is predestined to do. (Wait a second! What am I doing?! I've already posted all of this before! I just got sucked into the Hancock Vacuum, where his posts act like he's never read what we've already written and he posts some of the same questions and arguments all over again!! That's it! I will go no further!)

Read the previous posts, Mr. Hancock. ALL, and I mean ALL, of your questions and disputes have been more-than-satisfactorily answered. You're making us run around in circles. READ THE POSTS!

@All - check out this sermon and the several others before it. Great sermon series about this topic (predestination/Romans 8) by Pastor Terry Thole.

"Is the Doctrine of the Soverignty of God Practical?"
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=36111715118

Yeah, and while you are on sermonaudio, check out some recent sermons preached by Pr. Waters on Romans 9. They are really good, too.

Who's "Pr" Waters? That name doesn't come up on SermonAudio.

Maybe people can try Mike Waters of Heritage Reformed Baptist Church, or go on YouTube and type in Voddie Baucham & Romans 9.

Prepare to be fed.

"Pr." is the abbreviation for Pastor. Sorry. I didn't know it wouldn't come up.

My dad is ultra-critical and uses biting sarcasm sometimes, Octavius. I don't know if you knew that about him. ;P

Really?

What's sarcasm?

'Tis not that I did choose thee,
For, Lord, that could not be;
This heart would still refuse thee,
Hadst thou not chosen me.
Thou from the sin that stained me
Hast cleansed and set me free;
Of old thou hast ordained me,
That I should live to thee.

'Twas sov'reign mercy called me
And taught my op'ning mind;
The world had else enthralled me,
To heav'nly glories blind.
My heart owns none before thee,
For thy rich grace I thirst;
This knowing, if I love thee,
Thou must have loved me first.

~Josiah Conder, 1836

That is an excellent hymn and one of my favorites on this subject!

@COS, what you call "ultra-critical" might just mean, in normal people's terms, as an "attention to detail" or "simply observant."

But, hey! Who am I to criticize your choice of words?!? :)

From my observation most of you who posted on here believe predestination. I agree with this but I also think that man responds in faith and repentance to God’s calling (Matthew 4:17; Romans 8:15-16). It is a two-part thing, God convicts people of sin, but it is every person’s own responsibility to repent (Hebrews 12:25). God draws us to Himself (John 6:44) and we look to Him for our salvation (Hebrews 10:22; James 4:8-10).
Either man rejects God and His way of salvation or he accepts the payment for sin. God knows what you will choose in the end (1 Peter 1:2).
God made man to have a relationship with Him. Could anyone ever have a real relationship with a puppet? God is willing that none should parish (2 Peter 3:9). If God did not give us a free choice who would ever go to hell?

I read through this conversation a while ago and did not see the answers to my questions… please forgive me if I missed something in this thread.

I don't know much about this but here it goes. I have an idea that is kinda crazy and very open to debate. I believe that God knows the future. I believe that God wants none to perish. How can we reconcile these two truths without any kinks? Maybe God knows what will happen in the future depending on what choices we make. I know it's crazy, but hear me out. Please. Perhaps Jesus dying on the cross made it possible to make the right choice despite our depraved state. As I said before it is just an idea, just a suggestion. We see all things spiritual through a glass darkly, but hear this. That whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish but have everlasting life. NOT, whosoever that happens to be part of some elect should not perish but have everlasting life. OOPS SORRY GUYS I MEANT THIS POST FOR CHIEF OF SINNERS

"God made man to have a relationship with Him. Could anyone ever have a real relationship with a puppet?"

I agree, we couldn't have a real relationship with God if we were His puppets. But the thing is, we're not! Even though He is the One who changes us, we are not His puppets; He makes us into His willing servants! We are not forced to follow Him, but He makes us willing.

"If God did not give us a free choice who would ever go to hell?"

If God did not give us free will, then it's up to Him to choose who will be saved. And, I believe, that's exactly how it is. We do not have the freedom to choose Him; we are slaves–and willingly so–to sin, and we cannot seek God. He has to be the One to make us willing to choose Him, since we cannot make ourselves willing.

@Asian's Blacksmith: Quick question…are you new on here?

Okay, so I believe that God knows the future and that he doesn't want any to perish. But that is his revealed will. He revealed to us that He doesn't want any to perish but His sovereign will is that some will perish and others won't. We must remember that God's ways are not our ways. But God chose some to perish because He decided to have them glorify Him in that way. While those who don't perish will glorify Him in that way.

As to God knowing the choicess that we choice…I would say that God decided everything and then He directs us according to what He decided beforehand.

But in our depraved state we can't choose. WE ARE DEAD. WE CAN'T CHOOSE LIFE! (sorry for the caps) Our nature is sinful. We enjoy sinning thus if we enjoy sinning why would we choose (which isn't possible) Christ? God has to reveal Himself to us and He starts working in us and makes us alive.

Now, as it says "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life." God knew beforehand who would believe in Him and those who believe will have everlasting life but that whosoever is the elect. And God is saying that when some one believes they will have eternal life…I don't believe that He is trying to say that anyone can believe. Because God chose beforehand who would believe thus he can say "Whosoever".

Hope that all made sense and that I didn't come across harsh.

Now, a question for you:
Could you please give me several verses that prove your point and explain how they prove your point. Thanks.

Looking forward to your reply :D

I really enjoy reading the forums because I have biblical thoughts, though I can't explain why or have a very firm belief. However this is one thing that I think I agree on. If you could share some bible verses that would be great!!!!!