Free Will vs. Predestination

Anser to quick question, Yes I am very new on here.

Reply to nonharsh reply. P.S. I'M VERY SORRY IF I CAME OF HARSHLY BEFORE.
Ok imagine we are all in the prison of sin. The headmaster of the prison is the cheif of the devils. JESUS comes in as a fellow prisoner and is executed for no reason. And then he comes back to life and tells a few prisoners about a hole in the wall he made, and instructs them to tell the rest of the prisoners. These men then tell everybody about it and some listen and get away, and some say they are crazy.
Now do you think that Jesus wanted some to stay and be brutaly handled? Or do you think that they had the choice to look for THE hole?
Now I take Jesus very literally when He says that he doesn't want anyone to perish. And I know in my uttermost being that He wants NO HUMAN BEING (sorry for the caps) to go to hell, because hell is a place so terrible, so horrifying, so painful, so agonizing that it is beond our imagination, And I have felt the pain of hot metal, the pain of losing loved ones, and the pain of trampling hooves, and I have felt NOTHING akin to the pain of hell, the pain of ultimate separation from GOD. THAT is how I know that GOD wants none to perish.
Now GOD knows who is going to get through the hole, choose his salvation, but he does not go picking and choosing.

I am sorry if I have been harsh, judgemental, or otherwise impolite.

Iron sharpens iron and steel sharpens steel. That takes some friction, but it is the right thing to do.

Hi, Aslan's Blacksmith! Glad to see you weighing in on this discussion. :) Now, if you've read anything on this forum, you probably know that I do not hold to your view. I would like to give a couple of verses that I think strongly support what I believe–that we do not choose God, but He chooses us.

First off, Romans 8:29-30:
"For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified."
Sounds to me from this verse that God actually chooses His people–not vice versa.

Next, Romans 3:10-12:
"as it is written: 'None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; NO ONE SEEKS FOR GOD. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” (Emphasis mine, obviously. :D) From this I gather that humans do not even have the ability in themselves to choose God and His salvation.

I could find other verses if I wanted to, but I'd like to see your response to these ones first. :) Thanks for your polite comment; and no, I didn't find it judgmental in any way. :)

Yea, sorry guys I was working on the verses when my internet time ran out.

I have here for your observation ladies and gentlemen a few Bible verses concerning man's free will in excepting The Lord's healing that I believe may apply. Please note ladies and gentlemen that God knowing whether or not these people would except His gift does not prove that He forced their decision.

Mathew 7:13-14 Enter ye at the strait gate; for wide is the gate, and broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go thereat; Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there by that find it.

That be the way, is RED LETTER STUFF. That is strait from the most famous sermon in history. You guessed it, the sermon on the mount.

If you care to look in your Bibles in Mathew 8;2-4 you will see a great example of people coming to seek Jesus for healing. There are many such examples, but let me give you something a bit more rare, a case of people who Jesus wanted to minister to refusing.

Mathew 8:34 (you really should read the whole story, which starts in MAT 8:28.)
And behold, the whole city came out to meet Jesus: and when they saw Him, they besought Him that he would depart from their coasts.

Now an example of mans weakness getting in the way of God's greatness. By the way that would be mans wrong choice getting in the way of Gods greatness.

Mathew 14:25-31 The story of Jesus, and Peter walking on water.

please read this one in your Bibles. It is time for me to say, good by now. I'm really sorry if I have not answered any of your questions.

I don't think any of those verses show that we have the ability to choose God. They just show examples of people that did choose Him. I believe that God must change a person's heart–without their permission–to save them. Yes, we accept His gift by faith, but only after He has transformed our hearts to be able to do this.

I also have an issue with something else you said. You said that man's weakness, or his wrong choices, can get in the way of God's greatness. I have to object here; nothing can get in the way of God's greatness! He is completely sovereign, and nothing can "get in the way" of His will. If He wills to do something, it will be done!

@Aslan's Blacksmith: Sorry I haven't replyed to your comments. I do not think that your comments came across harsh or judgmental. As you know, I disagree with you.

First for your illustration of us being in a prison of sin we are dead. We aren't alive and kept in a prison(sin). We are dead in sin. And since we are dead we can't try to "escape". Sin is our nature and we wouldn't want to escape if we could. But Christ came and died and took the punishment and He chooses whom He wants to save and then He makes us alive. He draws us to Him and changes our hearts so we want to be His. But we can't change our entire nature to want Him. Only God can do that. And as in my other comment. I do believe that God wants everyone to be saved…that is His revealed will…but God's sovereign will is that not everyone will be saved. Because everyone will glorify Him either by life or by death. If someone dies and goes to hell they will glorify Him just as much as the Christian who dies and goes to heaven. They just glorify Him in different ways. The unbeliever glorifies Him by showing that God is a Just and Righteous God. And He will punish the wicked. While the Believer glorifies God by showing that God is gracious and saves some.

As for the passages that you showed us those…I don't believe…has anything to do with our choose. I would like to go through them one by one.

Matthew 7:13-14: God draws us to Himself and saves us. We then have to be diligent to continue in the right way. But we can only do so if God helps us. We can't do so by ourselves. But we must be diligent in seeking Him to help us. And if do not follow the straight way and we have no fruit then it shows that we are not saved. It isn't saying that we have to choose to stay on the right path. Because that is saying that we are stronger than God. Because if we choose not to stay on the right path then we can go against God because…as you believe…He wants us to stay on the right path.

As for the passages of healing they came to God but God changed their hearts so that they wanted to. God had to give them the faith. They can't just come up with faith.

Matthew 8:34: God did not give them faith to believe in Christ. God did not choose them. I think that proves our point that we (SBG and I) are trying to make. Some people were given faith by God and thus they came to Christ but then God decided to give others that faith and so they did not come. Because he had just healed a possessed man. It seems that they would want Him to heal the other sick ones as well but God decided that they would glorify Him in a different way.

Matthew 14:25-31: You are saying then that man is stronger than God. Man is not stronger…God is. He can do whatever He wants. Because of Peter's lack of faith he started sinking. Which shows man's utter dependence upon God.

Please read through Ephesians 1. It clearly points that we were predestined by God.

I am looking forward to your reply.

Great discussion guys! Hey, just a quick note, i think that everyone involved in this conversation is making great points, but i think some of you have a hang up simply due to your ignorance of your doctrine of depravity. Because man is born depraved, Jesus had to come and die for our sins. If you don't understand the basics of this–that man needs Jesus to cover his sins and that he deserves hell, then you simply don't understand the gospel or grace.

Because of the fall, our free will was affected. Man could no longer choose to do good. Born with the temptations of the flesh/ sinful nature, Man can do nothing but choose to sin in his freewill. it is god in his mercy who causes us to be born again–in our free will we can choose to do nothing but sin.

Earlier today I listened to a messege by John MacArthur at the 2013 Shepherds' Conference, in it he was talking about this same subject, preaching from John 3. He said that just as we have no say, or no way to help in being born physically, we aslo can do nothing to be born spiritually.

@Cowboy4Christ and MCS: Thanks for your comments! I agree completely.

@All people.

One at a time please! Ok guys ever hear of the seven things that God hates?

You can find it in Proverbs. I am not going to tell you where because I think it is good for people to strike out ( pardon the baseball poun )on our own.

Do you honestly believe that God would MAKE (pardon the caps) anyone do things he hates?

I am not just talking about where we go when we die here. This affects the way we look at the Bible, the world, and just about everything else.

I believe that YOU (pardon the caps) are the ones putting God in a box. I believe that God is powerful enough that he can do anything he wants. Including giving man the choice to follow Jesus or not.

God is a God of order. The universe proves it again and again. Cause and effect are orderly.

Lets just say your mom is not a christian. Do you think it is because God does not want her? Or do you think it is because she is stubborn? Or maybe blinded by the vain pleasures of this world?

When Jesus who is God says He wants none to perish I have the faith to think that God is smart enough to think of a way to rule something besides puppets.

I hope this does not rub anyone the wrong way.

By the by I have a sneaking suspicion that we are all wrong, and God will reveal the truth in His time. Maybe we should all pray about this.

@Cowboy4Christ. Great name by the by.

Ok what raises man above the beast? What makes us like God?

Because we are created in the image of God, for one.

Hi, Aslan's Blacksmith. :) Judging from your post, I think that you are misunderstanding our argument. You asked, "Do you honestly believe that God would MAKE (pardon the caps) anyone do things he hates?" No, I do not believe that; I don't think any of us do. But that is not what any of us have been saying. We have been saying that man, by nature, wants to do evil and cannot on his own desire to do anything else. They are not made to do it; they do it entirely on their own.

I do not believe we are putting God in a box. Of course God is powerful enough to do anything He wants; but I think that the Bible makes clear that He does not give people free will, but shows His sovereign power by choosing His own people (and showing them that they cannot choose Him). You also asked, if someone's mother is not a Christian, is it because God does not want her, or because she is stubborn or blinded by worldly pleasures. I would answer that neither is the entire reason. She is, in a sense, unsaved because of her own stubbornness. But she is also unsaved because God has chosen not to save her (at least, not yet; and also, it is not because He does not want her to be saved–it is simply because He has not chosen her).

You again accused us of believing that Christians are puppets. Again and again we have shown that this is not what we believe. We believe that God regenerates the heart of a sinner, who in turn comes to God in repentance and faith and becomes God's willing servant. We are not robots or puppets; we are willing servants (yes, it did take God's action without our permission to make us willing, but we are still willing!). So yes, God was "smart enough to think of a way to rule something besides puppets." :)

BTW, no one has to fear that they are wrong. God has revealed all this in His Word; we do not need to wait till heaven to find out. That's why we should be so thankful for Scripture–God has already revealed the truth to us! :)

For your second comment, Aslan's Blacksmith, I believe that part of the answer to your question lies in C4C's reply–we were made in God's image. Granted, that image was greatly scarred by the Fall, but we still bear God's image. We also, though, have souls that will live eternally, we have an intellect far higher than any beast, and we are the objects of the affection of the Creator of the universe. I assume that your answer to your question will be "free will," but I do not believe that this is the case. :)

I am sorry for my misunderstanding. But I am still having trouble understanding what in the world you are trying to get across. What about us is in Gods image? I have a feeling it is not our rather imperfect visage. Maybe just maybe it is our ability to make a real choice. If I started making rude comments would it be my choice? Or could I CHOOSE (please pardon the caps.) the right thing. How much more important is the choice between the ultimate Good and the ultimate Evil?

God has done the choosing, or maybe is doing the choosing (according to our time-limited view). Here are some of the scriptures which talk about God's choosing.

John 15:16 (ESV)
You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that bwhatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Psalms 78:70 (ESV)
He chose David his servant and took him from the sheepfolds;

Psalms 47:4 (ESV)
He chose our heritage for us, the pride of Jacob whom he loves. Selah

Psalms 78:68 (ESV)
but he chose the tribe of Judah, Mount Zion, which he loves.

1 Corinthians 1:27 (ESV)
But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong;

Deuteronomy 4:37 (ESV)
And because he loved your fathers and chose their offspring after them and brought you out of Egypt with his own presence, by his great power,

Deuteronomy 7:7 (ESV)
It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the Lord set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples,

Luke 6:13 (ESV)
And when day came, he called his disciples and chose from them twelve, whom he named apostles:

1 Corinthians 12:18 (ESV)
But as it is, God arranged the members in the body, each one of them, as he chose.

Ephesians 1:4 (ESV)
even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love

I am not directing this specifically at anyone, or saying that someone was disagreeing with it.
If God chose us does that leave any choosing for us to do?

EDIT: Most of these verses do not support or mention salvific predestination, I was trying to argue the idea of God's choosing, but not specifically predestianation by most of them, but to say if God chose us, doesn't that mean predesitnation.

Yes.

Deuteronomy 30:19 - "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

Joshua 24:15 - "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve…but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Luke 13:34 - "…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Proverbs 1:29 - "For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:"

When I see verses like these compared with Romans 8:9 and 3:10-11, I come to this conclusion. I do not believe that man can choose God by his own will. Man cannot choose God by himself; this is a description of our inherent sin nature. The reason this is is because man cannot see why he would want to choose God until God makes it plain to him. I also do not believe that we have no free will. Instead, like God's Bondslave said, I believe that God invites us to Himself, but we must choose whether to come or not. HE makes it possible to choose the good, but WE are the ones who must choose it. God wants all of humanity to be saved, but He will not force us to choose it because the reward of everlasting life is just that: a reward for being righteous on the earth. The punishment of eternal death is just that: a punishment for being evil on the earth. If God rewards or punishes according to His choices to save or reject, then He is partial. But the Bible clearly says that "God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34).
An illustration from the Bible: Matthew 9:28-29 says, "And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." God offers, we accept, He saves. Luke 13:34-35 says, "…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." God offers, we reject, He does not save and therefore must punish.
To sum up: God makes eternal life possible, and He does the saving, but we choose whether it happens.

(This post originally came from "Did God make Evil?" where it was an off-topic post. That forum is now locked anyways.)

Just so you know, none of the verses you gave except John 15:16, 1 Corinthians 12:18, and Ephesians 1:4 could even possibly refer to so-called predestination, i.e. God choosing who is saved. To answer those, I believe that in John 15 Jesus is referring to his disciples in particular (not that it couldn't apply to us). In 1 Corinthians 12 it is referring to individual members of Christ's body who have already been saved, and in Ephesians 1 Paul is referring to the church as a whole, not the believers as individuals.

Well explained Matthew!

I'm not wanting to give you the whole-to-part fallacy, but if Eph. 1 was reffering to the church as a whole (the body of believers), would it be wrong to say that it applys to believers individually?
I read some of the context, and don't think that it is reffering to the church as a whole, but the idividuals which make up the church.

I believe individual believers together constitute the church and hence those verses of predestination applies to individuals as well.

Our choosing makes it our responsibility for our actions which Matthew explained well which is no void of the doctrine of depravity. But it is the preaching of the cross that divides truth and error, right and wrong, good and bad, darkness and light, sweet and bitter, saved and unsaved, saint and apostate. The preaching of the cross makes a sinner realise his sin, and the holiness of God makes him tremble. These things produce that conviction and deep contrition through which the Holy Spirit enables sinners to 'receive' Christ, who gives them the 'power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on HIS Name' (John 1:12).

And I believe that once a sinner becomes a child of God he through God's Word will come to know of the great plan of God towards him ie, his predestination!

Preaching Christ crucified is MORE important.

I agree with most all of what I understand both you and Matthew to be saying. Amen,.

You can choose to do good instead of evil but God knew before the world began what you would choose there. God makes us, as Christians, want to do good rather than evil. Granted there are times when we fall to temptation but "God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins" and "if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous". In the same way God knew before the world began who would be saved and who wouldn't. He chose who would be saved and who wouldn't. And then he starts drawing his elect to him and in turn we go to Him. But we did not choose God in the first place "In this is love not that we have loved God, but that he loved us…" So it plainly says here that it was because God loved us first not us loving God first.

Your Sister in Christ,
biblebee

Good thoughts, Carissa! I completely agree with you.

I was thinking about this recently, and I had a few thoughts that I'd like to share.

First, @MCS, I understand why you would think that. I'm just bringing up the possibility. Another possibility is that God knew that we would believe on Him and therefore chose us (whom He knew would choose Him) to be "holy and without blame before him". Which brings me into my second point…

I think the key to this whole debate is the meaning of the word "predestinate", and thus the title of this topic (Free Will vs. Predestination) could be a straw man. I say this because the Bible makes clear mention of the doctrine of predestination. Anyone who does not believe in predestination goes against clear Scripture. I want to make it clear that I do believe in predestination. Romans 8:29 says "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son". This is the key. God foreknew us (He knew that we would accept Him, before we did it), therefore He predestinated us (to be conformed to the image of Christ - synonymous of sanctification).

Third, I have heard many refer to Jesus' illustration of being born again in this debate. Those who bring this up say that just as a baby being born does not have any choice in its birth, so we do not have any choice in our becoming Christians or not. Well, I want to point out that this illustration of being born again is just that: an illustration. Also, though "born again" is used frequently in the Scriptures, the illustration of adoption is also used five times. We were in the family of the devil, but God adopted us. Now adoption comes with a choice. My goal here is not to prove you wrong, but rather to stress that this is an illustration. I feel that many here are taking that illustration too literally.

Fourth, I have noticed that this topic (and many of the debates on this forum, for that matter) have something or other to do with time. For example, WHEN did God predestinate us? HOW LONG will the wicked be tormented? WHEN one receives salvation, can one lose it? WHEN are the dead taken to heaven? As I contemplate it, I feel ever more strongly that it is quite possible in these debates that neither side is entirely correct, because of our inability to think outside time. I wanted to bring that up to give a fresh perspective to this forum. I, for one, am looking forward to the day when the dark glass through which we see the kingdom of heaven is removed and we see Him face to face.

This is the best explanation of Predestination vs Free Will i've heard put forward by Derek Prince. I'm not a calvanist nor armenian, but this explanation is extememly powerful. It starts at 1:30s….worth listening too!!!

blessings
Christian

I love hearing (and seeing) Calvin and Hobbes….oops Calvinists and Armenians fight….

Families being broken up over a stupid preference? not likely

Uh… stupid preference? Do you know exactly what Calvinism and Arminianism are…? They aren't just preferences, and, unfortunately, families can and do get divided over it.

I have to respectfully disagree with you, though, Leah. I think the topic is certainly worth debating over–though not at all worth fighting over. Whether God saves man because He chooses them or because they choose Him is a very important thing to discuss.

Of course I know what they are, (and I know the implications involved when taken to both extremes.) I think both are taught in the Bible, there's verses to support both sides. I don't know how they fit though.

BTW, where do you stand on Calvinism vs Armenianism?

Well, there's verses that seem to support one side over the other, but I believe that they all fit (of course, they have to fit somehow, or the Holy Spirit would be contradicting Himself). I think I know fairly well how they fit as well.

And… I'm a staunch Calvinist. But I really don't like calling it Calvinism; I'd rather call it Biblicism. ;)

so do you believe you can sin all you want after you say a 'sinners prayer'?

WHAT?! By all means, NO! Read Romans 6! That's not at all something promoted by Calvinists, but usually by Arminians. I highly disagree with anyone who believes that to be true.

According to calvinism, everyone who is going to heaven is predestinated. So therefore, if you are one of the elect, you can sin all you want.

That's called carnal Christianity…not Calvinism! I believe that "If truly saved…always saved". Once someone is truly saved they are given a new heart and cleansed from the old heart and flesh…they are given, by God's power, the ability to overcome sin and temptations and though they will sin they will not make a practice of it (1 John 3).

And... I'm a staunch Calvinist. But I really don't like calling it Calvinism; I'd rather call it Biblicism. ;)

DITTO!

I just realized I am doing exactly what I detest other people doing..(arguing over this topic)

And truly, If you guys had argued FOR Armenianism, I would taken the side of Calvinism. :)

We aren't arguing! We are only debating/discussing ;-)
So….you just debate for the opposite side of everyone else????????????? Which are you really?

I believe both are true…I dont see how they fit together, but obviously both sides are presented in the Bible, and you cant cut out one part or the other.

Okay………… But they do fit together and only one can be true because they contradict themselves and God can't contradict Himself.

I do believe God is sovereign. And I do believe you have a choice, and that God does not force you to go to heaven. I think only God can understand how they fit together.

God doesn't "force" you to go to heaven. But all of His people will WANT to go to heaven!! This is how I see it:
Before the world was made God choose whom He would save. Then He created the world and all that. Then He would, for each person that He chose, show the person their sin, His love and Christ's great sacrifice, etc…. and thus save them. They would receive the Holy Spirit and God would give them a new heart that wants to live righteously and follow Christ. A believer, once saved does not have their old heart still, they are given a new clean heart! And once someone truly believes they can't lose their salvation. There will be times when they fall but God will always lift them up and true believers will always press on!

Man, does that mean If i'm not one of the elect but want to be saved I cant be? The Bible says "whosoever will, may come" but you would say only those who are predentisatered has the will to come.

And I say that's BALONEY

Please!!!! We are trying to nicely discuss something!!!

Will you answer our questions?

We don't know who is predestined and who is not. Those who God predestines He will bring to Himself while those who are not predestined will not want to know God. And since we don't know who is predestined we shouldn't just sit back and say "I want to know God but I must not be one of the elect!" No…we should continue to press on to know the Lord (Hosea 6:3) and if we are one of His people He will saved us!

Oh…and it's not the one who has the "will" to come but the one whom God saves that will come

Those who God predestines He will bring to Himself while those who are not predestined will not want to know God.

I think everyone in their right mind does not want to go to hell, even if they dont desire God. Jude 1:22-24 says some save with fear, pulling them out of the fire. Joh 6:37…. and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. God wont despise those who come to him even if it is out of fear. (see above)

That's not what the verse says…look it up

The thing is….people aren't in their "right mind" in the sense that since Adam sinned everyone born is born in sin. And also lots of people don't believe that there is a hell, some worship other God's, some don't even believe there is a God. No, those who come to God He won't despise them or cast them out but those who come to Him are those who have been predestined by Him.

"Once someone is truly saved they are given a new heart and cleansed from the old heart and flesh…they are given, by God's power, the ability to overcome sin and temptations and though they will sin they will not make a practice of it (1 John 3)."

Amen! I really liked Paul Washer's messages (Biblical assurance) on this subject.