State of the Dead

Sorry, I guess I read that and forgot or something.

"Luke 23:43 (KJV) Exactly says, And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." It's been awhile since I've checked this forum. But I just had one for thought about Luke 23:43. If Jesus was meaning that on that exact day they were on the cross that they would also be in paradise together, why does He tell Mary Magdalene in John 20:17 after His resurrection, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father..."? If He was in paradise with the thief on that exact day, why does He say a couple days later that He hadn't yet ascended to the Father?

I think the meaning is, "Don't hold to me too tightly. I'm going to be gone soon. I'll be ascending to the Father shortly."

I don't mind that interpretation ChiefOfSinners. The part that I'm curious about is why Jesus says that He hasn't yet ascended to the Father. Jesus words to the thief on the cross, "I tell you today you will be with in paradise" could not have meant that He would be with the thief in paradise on the very same day they were hanging on crosses because a couple of days later, Jesus says that He had not gone to see the Father. This is why I interpret Luke 23:43 as Jesus telling the thief, "I am telling you right now, you will be with Me in paradise later."

A few things I think might be considered here, Jesus Is God, so if the thief on the cross went to heaven, he would be with God,
though this might be not be the proper interpretation. Another thing might be the interpretation of Paradise, as somewhere that Is not heaven, so not where God specifically is more than elsewhere. Like in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man that Jesus told.

You apparently didn't understand what I said. Jesus doesn't say, "I did not ascend to the Father after I died." He says, "I have not yet ascended to the Father," or better, "I have yet to ascend to the Father."

It's like this: You get home from work. Your little daughter runs up and gives you a big hug and starts to tell you about what's gone on while you were gone and what she wants to do tonight. Your wife had asked you to go to the grocery store though, so you say to your daughter, "Don't get too excited, honey. I still have to go to the grocery store. I'll be back later." Now, your statement doesn't imply that you have never been to the grocery store before. It doesn't even necessarily mean that you didn't just come from the grocery store and are going back out. It just means that you're going to the grocery store now.

Jesus clearly went to Paradise after His death, and so did the redeemed thief. "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise…" That couldn't be more clear. There is no way to reinterpret that, really.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus is definitely an interesting parable. I personally think that Jesus told this parable to address way bigger issues than the state of the dead. He was addressing the popular belief at the time that they are saved by their own works and through their bloodline. Many Jews were under the impression that because they were physically descendants of Abraham they were entitled to eternal life. Jesus is also trying to show that their hearts are so hard that they won't believe His message of salvation and that He is the Messiah even if He raises someone from the dead which is exactly what happened when He raised Lazarus of Bethany from the grave (I also have a hard time believing that it is a coincidence that the name Lazarus is used in the parable). The Pharisees saw this miracle and it made them want to kill Jesus even more. My point is: I don't believe that Jesus is telling us this parable as a basis for doctrine on the state of the dead. He's telling it to make it clear that you can't buy salvation, earn salvation, or deserve salvation because of your DNA.

Now I don't expect you to agree with me that this parable shouldn't be used to be the foundation of one's state of the dead doctrine. The reason why I explain my position about it, is because I'm hoping you'd be willing to show me more Biblical evidence (besides from this parable) for why you believe paradise is not heaven and why you believe God is not more specifically in paradise than elsewhere.

Well, I guess if I am going to ask you for more Biblical evidence, I should probably give more evidence of my own for why I believe that the first death is as Jesus described it "a sleep."
Psalms 146:3-4 says, "Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10, says, "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun…Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."
Isaiah 38:18-19 says, "For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness. It is the living who give thanks to Thee, as I do today."
Psalms 6:5 says, "For there is no mention of Thee in death; In Sheol who will give Thee thanks?"
Psalms 115:17 says, "The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;"
Acts 2:29, 34 says, "David is both dead and buried, and his sepulcher is with us unto this day…For David is not ascended into the heavens."
Here's one more thought. If the dead immediately go to paradise (or heaven) or to hell, what is the point of resurrection (which was a topic the apostles wouldn't shut up about.) I Corinthians 15:17-18 says, "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished." Why would Paul emphasize the importance of Christ's resurrection in order for the righteous to also be resurrected? There would be no need for a resurrection if they had been in paradise the whole time.

" I still have to go to the grocery store. I'll be back later." Now, your statement doesn't imply that you have never been to the grocery store before. It doesn't even necessarily mean that you didn't just come from the grocery store and are going back out. It just means that you're going to the grocery store now." To me "I still have to go to the grocery store" has a very different implication than does "I have not yet gone to the grocery store." If someone said they haven't yet gone to the grocery store, I'd assume that they hadn't been there at all recently. Most people would say "I need to go back to the grocery store" if they had just been there recently and need to return. Also, I believe that the context suggests that Jesus hadn't gone to see the Father since His death; my reasons for this would take me more time to write than I have right now.

"Jesus clearly went to Paradise after His death, and so did the redeemed thief. "TODAY you will be with me in Paradise..." That couldn't be more clear. There is no way to reinterpret that, really." I'll be honest; I was a little taken back by this comment. To me your statement implies that only a fool would interpret this verse the way I am interpreting it. The last thing I want to be is a fool, and I don't think my reasons for interpreting that verse differently are foolish. Of course, a fool is wise in his own eyes, which could mean I'm in big trouble ;) The whole verse in Luke 23:43 says, "And He said to him. Truly I say to you today you will be with Me in Paradise." In the Greek there are no commas. Does the word "today" (which is an adverb) describe when Jesus spoke this statement or does it describe when He and the thief will be together in Paradise? It depends on where you put the comma, which to me is up for debate. Should it be translated, "Truly I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise" or "Truly I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise." The comma changes the meaning entirely. This is why I think that there is more than one way to interpret the verse.

I am not sure that I hold the views that I posed in the previous comment they were my thoughts as to alternate possibilities, as I am studying this more.
On searching for commas in greek, this site came up right off, and I thought it is very explanatory, though I may or may not agree with all they say theologically. http://www.gci.org/bible/luke/comma

Thanks for sharing that website. It's given me quite a bit to think about. I also am having trouble agreeing with everything that the website points out, but it definitely helped me realize that there is more to this conversation between Jesus and the thief than meets the eye.

Sorry, I've not had as much time here to be giving as well thought out comments as I'd like.
I have a thought that maybe Christ changed the way death worked, when he came.
Before Christ's death, people were looking forward to his atonement / redemption, but now it has happened.

Ah, I'm sorry. I see where you're coming from now. I hadn't thought about interpreting the "today" the way you did. Forgive me if I sounded harsh in what I said. I see what you're saying.

I know that you meant no offense, and if there is anything to forgive, you are forgiven. Throughout these forums, I've always appreciated your passion to see the Word of God interpreted the way God intended it to be, and I'm sure that that was the motivation behind your comment.

Its important to consider the passage Ephesians 4:8-10.

Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

BGlad, as you said we may not believe that Jesus is telling the parable as the basis for the doctrine of state of the dead. But whenever Jesus spoke in parables, they were never told without taking the reality into consideration. They are allegorical. Yet they have facts.

This particular parable is said to address Jews on the issue of salvation. It also did NOT miss the facts about hell and torment, paradise and rest, their spirits in consciousness etc(you may meditate and know even more). We are just considering the facts presented in the gospel(words of our Lord), compare and support it from other verses in the Scripture to get the doctrine.

"We are just considering the facts presented in the gospel(words of our Lord), compare and support it from other verses in the Scripture to get the doctrine." I love the idea of comparing a variety of verses in the Scripture to base one's doctrine; I too am trying to do this to base my beliefs, which is why I posted quite a few verses that point to death as an unconscious sleep. Besides the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, where do you find support that the righteous dead immediately go straight to "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" or "heaven" and can communicate with the unrighteous dead who immediately experience torment and can communicate with people like Abraham?

Am not trying to post verses that would make an other doctrine; but like to understand what God intends to convey us - 'the' doctrine.

Consider meditating on Elijah and Moses on the mount of Transfiguration. am sure they are conscious.

Regarding Paradise and its place before Jesus' ascension :–

• 'David is not ascended into heavens'(Acts 2:34),

• about Jesus, David prophesied— Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: 27 because THOU WILT NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HELL, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.

Why do you think 'hell' is used here instead of heaven? Why did Jesus say in Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.?

If only we have an idea of where paradise is before Jesus's ascension, its hard to understand.

I love the story of Elijah and Moses being on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus, but it definitely raises some questions. Elijah never tasted death, so it is difficult to include him in a conversation about the state of the dead. However, it does beg the question, why was Elijah permitted to go to heaven before Jesus (according to human timelines) died for his sins? When it comes to Moses being in heaven, the Bible doesn't give too much detail. Jude 9 could be interpreted as Moses already having been resurrected by the time Jesus came along. But again, that begs the question, why would Moses be resurrected and taken to heaven before Jesus' sacrifice and resurrection? Further discussion about these should probably be done in a different forum. But you are right, they are definitely worth considering.

As far as Acts 2:27 is concerned. Luke is quoting David from Psalms 16:10, which the NASB renders, "For Thou wilt not abandon my soul to Sheol; Neither wilt Thou allow Thy Holy One to undergo decay." My understanding is the word "Sheol" could be translated as simply the "grave." And since this is a Messianic prophecy, it seems to me that David is simply describing how the Father wouldn't leave Jesus in the tomb, but would resurrect Him.

(By the way, I couldn't tell from your post, but were you suggesting that before Jesus ascension, paradise was in hell?)

And in Matthew 12:40, Jesus is responding to the Pharisees who wanted to see Him perform a sign (even though Jesus had already done many signs). Jesus seems to indicate that THE sign that He will show them will be that His body will be in a tomb (I think "in the heart of the earth" is an appropriate way to describe the tomb) and will be resurrected. Because of what Jesus says in Matthew 12:41, I also think that Jesus is trying to emphasize what His resurrection will do in the hearts of many people: Just as Jonah's preaching after being in the belly of the whale made the hearts in Nineveh change, so shall Jesus' influence after His resurrection from the grave change the hearts of millions.

I think that one of the problems that we may be having in this discussion is the fact that many of us define terms like "hell" and "paradise" differently. I'm not quite sure how we can get on the same page about what those terms mean, and I don't know if this specific forum is the place to try and do it.

11 days ago I posted reasons from the Bible for why I believe that those who die are unconscious, and I am curious to see everyone's responses to those verses. If you get a chance to share your insights or thoughts about those verses, please do.

Here's my response and my current views. I would say that in these OT passages you cited;

{Psalms 146:3-4 says, "Do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation. His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10, says, "For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten. Indeed their love, their hate, and their zeal have already perished, and they will no longer have a share in all that is done under the sun…Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going."
Isaiah 38:18-19 says, "For Sheol cannot thank Thee, Death cannot praise Thee; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Thy faithfulness. It is the living who give thanks to Thee, as I do today."
Psalms 6:5 says, "For there is no mention of Thee in death; In Sheol who will give Thee thanks?"
Psalms 115:17 says, "The dead do not praise the LORD, Nor do any who go down into silence;"}

The writers are looking at this matter from the perspective of time bound mortal men. All of them are talking to God, or the reader. From an earthly perspective, we are dead, without conscious thought.

In Acts 2, the passage quotes David's prophecy in Psalm 16.
Here David says his heart rejoices because of the promise of eternal life through Christ's attonment, and furthermore that his flesh can rest in hope [of ressurection because of Christ.]

This is why I Corinthians 15:17-18 says, "and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished."

I Thessalonians 4:13-18 describes the resurrection of the saints (believers in Christ [including the righteous who looked for Christ before his coming,]) and calls them, prior to resurrection, 'asleep' I think this is the state that the dead are in.

Once one dies, if unconsious, there is no sense of time just as you are in a dreamless sleep. With no time, the events may seem consecutive, death and then immediate presence with the Lord at the resurrection.
I had originally thought that somewhere the Bible says "for to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord" I search and found that that's not what the scripture says. I Corinthians 5:8 actually says in the KJV

We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

The reason why Jesus asked Mary Magdalene not to touch HIM :
When Jesus died, He too was in Paradise where all those to whom it’s been imputed unto the righteousness were. But, when Jesus Rose again from the dead, HE warned Mary not to touch HIM(Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.) as HE didn't go to HIS heavenly Father yet, meaning that HE took all of them into heaven to show them up before HIM as HIS own (Ephesians 4:8-10).

If you think further discussion about Moses and Elijah should be on another topic. OK
But I’d like to point out that Moses was NOT resurrected in the light of the Word from Colossians 1: 18 'And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, THE FIRSTBORN from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.' Moses still awaits the great Resurrection Day, but meantime he has conscious and blessed existence, as Abraham has and as Paul has.
I’ll try to answer on Sheol, Hades and Paradise after awhile.
By the way, I did not mean paradise was in hell. I meant paradise separated by the 'Great gulf'( Luke 16) from the hell in the heart of the earth.

PS. When I say 'conscious' I only mean spirit in consciousness. (Ecclesiastes 12:7 – "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it." )

You said,"With no time, the events may seem consecutive, death and then immediate presence with the Lord at the resurrection."

I think that's not the idea Paul had when he told 'willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord'.
Here's the reason:

"Paul, who 'was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words which it is not lawful for a man to utter' (2Cor. 12:4) and who received "abundance of revelations" (verse 7) from God says that at the time he had the experience of being caught up into Paradise he did not know whether he was then "in the body or out of the body"(verse 3).

But earlier in the same epistle Paul used the same expressions thus:-
"knowing that whilst we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord"(2 Cor. 5:6),
Then he says "willing rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord"(2 Cor 5.8)

If we are present with the Lord only in the Resurrection, how then can we be 'absent from the body'? For Paul insists that while we are in the body we are absent from the Lord, but that when we are with the Lord then we are absent from the body.
Paul is obviously speaking of the intermediate state which follows death and fills the interim between death and the resurrection of the body.

Also Paul did speak "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain" (Phil 1:21-24) He couldn't have said dying is gain which he referred to as "far better" if he's going to be unconscious until the Resurrection day,his alternative being to live for Christ.

All these are the basis to confirm us that after death, conscious existence continues."

by W.G. Broadbent.

I think this is according to the Word of God.

God be praised for HE gave us the lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead!!

Sheol, Hades and Paradise

These three names are used in Scripture with reference to the intermediate state.
The Hebrew word used in the Old Testament for the Place of departed spirits in Sheol. In the New Testament the Greek Hades (often translated Hell in the authorised version) is the exact counterpart of the Hebrew Sheol. Sheol and Hades are the same.

The other word “Paradise” is used once by the Lord and once by Paul.

Hebrew scholars say that the word Sheol devolved from the word “shoal” which means “to ask”. Some say that the word depicts the way death “demands” its prey. Others say that it is derived from the “questioning” which has always exercised man’s thoughts concerning the dead, as Job expresses it – “man giveth up the ghost, and where is he? (Job 14:10).

Hades in the Greek can only carry the significance of the ‘unseen’ or ‘the invisible’. In the Greek language generally it means the region of departed spirits. The Lord Himself and all the New Testament writers used the word as it is used in Greek literature generally.

Hades never means the grave. Scripture on the other hand distinguishes between Hades and the Grave in exactly the same way it distinguishes between Soul and Body. Scripture speaks of “ death and Hades ” as two separate kingdoms.

For instance at the end of the intermediate state Scripture declares “death and Hades delivered up the dead that were in “ them ” (Rev. 20:13) and the Lord is referred to in Acts 2:27 thus: “Thou wilt not leave my soul in hades, neither wilt Thou suffer Thy Holy One to see corruption”. That is, the Soul and Hades relate, and His body and death relate. Peter interpreted this quotation from the Old Testament by saying “He seeing this before spake of His resurrection that His soul was not left in hades neither His flesh did see corruption”(verse 31).

“Hades” is a word used only eleven times in the New Testament and eight of these are clear uses of the word as above. Once the word is used in the expression “the gates of Hades” (Matt. 16:18). Twice the Lord says “Thou Capernaum shalt be brought down to Hades”. These are figurative uses of the word.

The Lord’s use of the word “Paradise” is very enlightening. He said to the repentant thief “verily I say unto thee, today shalt be with Me in Paradise”.

He named the place in which He would be found after death, and the place where He would be the very day of His death.

The thief had requested “Lord remember me when thou comest in Thy Kingdom”. He says in effect “ today thou shalt be with me in Paradise”. The word “today” carries the force of “this very day” and in the Greek the word means as the English word does, that the day is the day now present and it cannot refer to a day not present when the word is spoken.
Note that it is as from Christ’s death that Paradise is referred to as the dwelling place for the Christian after death. Hades gives place to other expressions for the Christian. He is “caught up to Paradise” or is “with Me in Paradise”, or “present with the Lord”.

*-W. G. Broadbent*

In the beginning of this discussion I found this book titled “Doctrine of Immortality” by W.G. Broadbent, New Zealand helpful to post the first two comments. I haven’t referred it again until now. It sure is a useful book having the deep truths according to the Word of the God. I would recommend it to everyone who would want to study the life after death and what God’s Word says on this particular subject.

BGlad, I thank you for the topic made me search further. I hope this information is helpful.
“Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.” (Rev.1:5(b)-6)

What I said at the end,
"With no time, the events may seem consecutive, death and then immediate presence with the Lord at the resurrection."
was my own idea of what could be the way things work.
Before I researched it, and found no clear-to-me evidence that 'absence from the body equates presence with the Lord'
(barring of course the unsaved from the current topic.)
Are you saying that this is true?

I am trying to learn what the Bible teaches on this subject, as every time I get into the Theology discussions, I learn that things aren't all as I had thought.

Am sure of the comments I made earlier because the Word says so.

Thoughts perish after the last breath(Ps 146:3-4), but all the saved will have conscious and blessed existence till Resurrection Day and even more after.

I'd like to add that the verses which BGlad referred {Psalms 146:3-4, Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6, 10,. Isaiah 38:18-19, Psalms 6:5, Psalms 115:17} or the verses you put up are not inconsistent with what is said in my earlier comments.

EDIT: MCS, just look at the passage Luke records in Acts 14:19-20 which Paul refers in 2 Cor.12:1-7. (He was absent from the body as is clear from the two verses)
I'm sorry if I was harsh in my comments.

In reply to your edit, The passage in Acts, talks about how he was stoned, left for dead and then when the disciples came around him he rose up ( the Greek word here; ἀναστὰς (anastas) is used for getting up, or standing up, but is not used for rising from the dead). In the 2 Cor. passage I really don't see any references to the Acts one at all.

Thank you MCS for the correction. You are right!
It is irrelevant to mention it (Acts 14:19-20) here in this conversation, since the apostle himself did not know whether his soul was in the body, or whether one or both were actually in heaven, it would be vain curiosity for us to attempt determining it.
2 Corinthians 12:3 ~ And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)