Did God make Evil?

If God created Satan, and Satan is evil, is evil God's fault?

Discuss!

Satan wasn't evil in the beginning, but he did have a free will, just like us, and he rebelled. He tempted Eve, (and so tempted Adam at the same time), they sinned, and so sin and death came upon all of us, being one in Adam. "For through one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin, so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned."

There are only two instances of free will in the Bible–angels and Adam and Eve before the Fall. Satan did have free will, but not "just like us." The Bible shows that "there is no one who seeks God," (Romans 3:12) so free will is not actually a biblical concept, as many would like to believe. (If anyone objects to that, we discussed it on the old forum topic "Free Will vs. Predestination," in which this debate over whether or not man has a free will is discussed in detail.)

As to the original question of this topic, I would say that God certainly did not create evil–by His very essence, He does not have the ability to do so. He is perfectly holy, so making something evil (let alone evil itself) is an impossibility for Him. So where did evil come from? As Courtney said, it came from the Fall, and actually, first from Satan. I pretty much agree with all of what Courtney said except for the "just like us" part. :)

We DO have a free will. God didn't make us to be just like puppets, we have to CHOOSE to accept salvation. We have a choice.

I just gave a verse that shows that we don't have a choice to follow our sin–"there is no one who seeks God." Give me a verse that says that we have a free will, please.

Before I answer that, let me talk with my parents. I was brought up in the Church of God (7th Day), so I was raised with that doctrine. Maybe I haven't researched it enough for myself.

@ Grace Harrison, in answer to your question, I would recommend that you read Isaiah 45:7. I believe it says, in the KJV, "I [the Lord] form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things." I agree that it seems totally revolting for the Lord to have created evil; yet without it, how could we truly love Him? There would be no alternative to loving Him if evil did not exist. This is a difficult subject for me to understand, so I certainly do not profess to have all the answers. If I have made any wrong statements, please feel free to correct me. I want to follow Biblically correct doctrine in my life. Thanks!

I would have to agree with Thomas on this one! God certainly did create evil and you have to admit that he at least allowed for it to happen (if you are arminian). Which He could have in His marvellous power stopped. I greatly appreciate talking theology with you guys having several Reformed and Arminian viewpoints is very good! I don't know if you can find it but I heard R.C. Sproul answer this question about whether God made evil or not. Very Good! Hey, my dad is an arminian pastor and he listened to it and thought it was good! So, check it out! Except I have no clue where it is at :(

@Courtney We do have a free will. However, we are born with a natural inclination to do what is wrong. Due to the fall. Thus, "there are none that seek after God." Only God through his marvellous grace can bring such wretched sinners as us back to Himself. We cannot "CHOOSE" salvation on our own.

Very true. I agree with all of that.

God's Bondslave, I don't understand how your last comment is consistent. "We do have a free will," but "we are born with a natural inclination to do wrong" and "we cannot 'CHOOSE' salvation on our own." Don't those two last statements conflict with the first? I believe all of what you said except for when you said that we have a free will. What do you consider a free will?

Also, I do not believe that God created evil. How does that not conflict with Isaiah 45:7? The Hebrew word for "evil" in that passage (in your version, but in the NIV, "disaster," or in the NASB, "calamity") is ra', which means "adversity." The KJV translators definition of evil included these things–but not moral evil! It contradicts the very nature of God to have created something opposite to His holiness! Does this mean I think God didn't intend for evil to exist? Not at all. He made man knowing that he would sin, therefore bringing evil to the world, but He did not create it. As He still does often, God used sin sinlessly.

@SBG, thanks for researching that word. I had not done so previous to commenting, but I did after you mentioned it.

I don't know what you used to look it up, but I looked it up with Online Bible. The expanded definition of the word also included it as ethical evil. Now, I would like to ask: what exactly do you mean by moral evil? in other words, if you could give me your definition of moral evil, I might better understand what you said.

Here are some verses that say we have a free will - Deuteronomy 30:19, Joshua 24:15, Proverbs 1:28-30, Isaiah 7:15, Luke 13:34, John 7:17a, James 4:4b, to name a few.

I understand and totally agree with the last paragraph. I'll have to do some more research as I have never thought of it that way before. In reply to the first paragraph what I consider a free will is the ability to choose between two things, however, when we are born we are born into sin. And thus, we have a natural will to do wrong and therefore we choose wrong. So, as I said before "we cannot CHOOSE salvation on our own" without God's grace being shed on our lives. Do you follow this? Do I need to try to explain more?

@God's Bondslave–Thank you for explaining; I understand your position now, and I agree with it. Man has a free will–to do what his evil nature allows him to, which includes no good.

@Matthew Minica–I can't be on the Internet for much longer, so I'll have to answer you tomorrow. :) But I'd like to give you a verse to ponder.

Romans 8:7–
"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

I'll answer you, and I'd like to hear your answer to me. Thanks. :)

If God did not create evil, does that make Satan the creator of evil? Can Satan be a creator?

I have been interested in this topic for several years, and have collected a few Scriptures that are worth looking at.
As always, it is best not to answer from what came out of our own thinking, or just what we have heard, but, instead, look to see what the word of God says.

Q. Does God ever bring diseases on people?

Ex. 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

Q. Does the Bible ever say that God thought or did evil, or repented???

Ex. 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

1Chr. 21:15 And God sent an angel unto Jerusalem to destroy it: and as he was destroying, the LORD beheld, and he repented him of the evil, and said to the angel that destroyed, It is enough, stay now thine hand. And the angel of the LORD stood by the threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite.

Jer. 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer. 26:19 Did Hezekiah king of Judah and all Judah put him at all to death? did he not fear the LORD, and besought the LORD, and the LORD repented him of the evil which he had pronounced against them? Thus might we procure great evil against our souls.

Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.

Q. Does the Bible ever speak of God administering evil?

Judg. 9:57 And all the evil of the men of Shechem did God render upon their heads: and upon them came the curse of Jotham the son of Jerubbaal.

Q. Has God ever sent or used an Evil Spirit?

1Sam. 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

1Sam. 16:23 And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

1Sam. 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and there was a javelin in Saul’s hand.

1Sam. 19:9 And the evil spirit from the LORD was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand.

2Sam. 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

1Kings 9:9 And they shall answer, Because they forsook the LORD their God, who brought forth their fathers out of the land of Egypt, and have taken hold upon other gods, and have worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath the LORD brought upon them all this evil.

1Kings 21:29 Seest thou how Ahab humbleth himself before me? because he humbleth himself before me, I will not bring the evil in his days: but in his son’s days will I bring the evil upon his house.

1Kings 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.

1Kings 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

2Kings 21:12 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Behold, I am bringing such evil upon Jerusalem and Judah, that whosoever heareth of it, both his ears shall tingle.

2Kings 22:16 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah hath read:

2Kings 22:20 Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

2Chr. 7:13 If I shut up heaven that there be no rain, or if I command the locusts to devour the land, or if I send pestilence among my people;

2Chr. 7:22 And it shall be answered, Because they forsook the LORD God of their fathers, which brought them forth out of the land of Egypt, and laid hold on other gods, and worshipped them, and served them: therefore hath he brought all this evil upon them.

2Chr. 34:24 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, and upon the inhabitants thereof, even all the curses that are written in the book which they have read before the king of Judah:

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Psa. 78:49 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Psa. 105:25 He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.

Prov. 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Is. 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Is. 31:2 Yet he also is wise, and will bring evil, and will not call back his words: but will arise against the house of the evildoers, and against the help of them that work iniquity.

Is. 47:11 Therefore shall evil come upon thee; thou shalt not know from whence it riseth: and mischief shall fall upon thee; thou shalt not be able to put it off: and desolation shall come upon thee suddenly, which thou shalt not know.

Jer. 6:19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.

Jer. 11:11 Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will bring evil upon them, which they shall not be able to escape; and though they shall cry unto me, I will not hearken unto them.

Jer. 19:3 And say, Hear ye the word of the LORD, O kings of Judah, and inhabitants of Jerusalem; Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring evil upon this place, the which whosoever heareth, his ears shall tingle.

Jer. 19:15 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will bring upon this city and upon all her towns all the evil that I have pronounced against it, because they have hardened their necks, that they might not hear my words.

Jer. 23:2 Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.

Jer. 23:12 Wherefore their way shall be unto them as slippery ways in the darkness: they shall be driven on, and fall therein: for I will bring evil upon them, even the year of their visitation, saith the LORD.

Jer. 32:23 And they came in, and possessed it; but they obeyed not thy voice, neither walked in thy law; they have done nothing of all that thou commandedst them to do: therefore thou hast caused all this evil to come upon them:

Jer. 32:42 For thus saith the LORD; Like as I have brought all this great evil upon this people, so will I bring upon them all the good that I have promised them.

Lam. 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Ezek. 6:10 And they shall know that I am the LORD, and that I have not said in vain that I would do this evil unto them.

Ezek. 14:22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it.

Dan. 9:12-14 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.

Mic. 2:3 Therefore thus saith the LORD; Behold, against this family do I devise an evil, from which ye shall not remove your necks; neither shall ye go haughtily: for this time is evil.

Q. Has God ever caused someone to believe a lie???

2Th. 2:11-12 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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I acknowledge that this is quite long, but I trust that it will be profitable.
May we sincerely try to conform to God being what HE has declared Himself to be, rather than deciding how WE think he should be, and then looking for Scriptures that support our perception.

@SoulWinner–Evil is in existence because good is in existence. As dark is merely the absence of light, evil is the absence of good. Satan strayed from good, so evil resulted–he did not create it, technically. I think I explained that right…?

Nicolas, I really appreciate many of the things that I have read on the forums, that you have written. I am impressed at some of your insights for someone that is 13 or 14 years old. And most of all I am glad that you are Saved by Grace.

I am curious, however, did you by any chance read my previous post with all the scriptures in it? If not, would you, please? And if so, do you think there are any insights to be gained on our topic of God and evil?

I would appreciate your thoughts and feedback. And, of course, that goes for your dad, Wretched Man, or anyone else for that matter. I'm looking forward to hearing what brothers and sisters have to say.

@Interesting thought, SBG. Your reply begs the question, though: did God create good? We know that God created light, because Scripture specifically says so. But I am not aware of any scripture that specifically states that God created good. (If I am wrong, please correct me.)

As to the original question on this forum, I believe that God created evil because He wants us to love Him. I may have stated this before, but without evil, it would be impossible for us to truly love Him. I believe that love is a choice. Therefore, for us to love God, we would have to chose between loving Him and loving the world. We can choose to do either one or the other, but we cannot choose to do both. Therefore, it follows that God would have created evil so that instead of following Him by default, we follow Him by choice.

@ Thomas Youngman wouldn't you say that God's very essence is good. So, really the only true good is God "there is none good, no not one" so good has been in existence for all eternity?

Luke 18:19
So Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God.
Like GB said God's very essence and character is goodness. So either God created good, or He is good; which would mean that goodness came from him. I hope I did not confuse anyone with that last statement. :D

@gb and SoulWinner, thanks for answering my question. I believe that you are correct in your answers. Now, I would be interested in hearing your opinions on whether or not God created evil, as well as your reasons for making such a statement.

It could be argued that since God has always been good, which would mean that good has always existed, then the ability to do evil has always existed.

But of course there are the laws of physics. If I am not mistaken one of the laws of physics is that every reaction has an equal, opposite reaction. This would seem to imply that good and evil have always existed together. Something can not be defined as good unless you have a set standard of what is right and what is wrong. If there was no evil then nothing could be defined as good, because you have never experienced bad. Make sense?

Sorry, for delaying… I've just been really busy with NBB and college :) I would have to say that God did create evil. He created Satan allowed Him to rebel against HImself, He also created Adam and Eve knowing that they would rebel against Him. Thus He at least created evil indirectly. He however uses evil for good. Joseph said unto his brothers "ye thought evil against me but God meant it for good." He also used the evil deeds of men on his own Son Jesus Christ to turn the worst event in history into the best :) I would also have to say that Good can be present without evil God who is all goodness was for eternity before evil came into the world. However, evil cannot be present without good. As God will always be good "He is the same yesterday, today and forever." However, evil will always be present in this fallen world. Since, satan is the price of it.

I can't explain my answers in detail, but I still disagree with you–God did not create evil! He created Satan and his angelic followers as perfectly good, and he created Adam and Eve as perfectly good–He just made them with the ability to choose evil (the absence of good, like you said). This does not mean He created it! God also did not use "the evil deeds of men on his own Son Jesus Christ"; He gave Jesus the punishment that our wicked deeds deserved–not the wicked deeds themselves! I still think that it goes against the nature of God to have created evil.

P.S. @EdB–Thank you for your encouragement. But I do not think that those verses you gave support God creating evil. He often uses sin sinlessly, but He did not create it.

For some reason, my computer is not letting me continue my last comment, so I will finish it here. I do not believe that God created evil, as I said, but I do believe that He uses things that we would consider "evil" (which is the word the KJV uses to describe calamity, disaster, etc.). He uses sin sinlessly, as He did in the case of Joseph and his brothers.

But God is not all love. He has a wrath, too. I kinda see what you are saying with the ability to do evil, and that was kinda what I was thinking. Not really sure where I was going with the whole God's wrath thing. Maybe I'll come up with something later on. Also, I don't have a definite view on this subject, so I am open to both sides of the arguement for once! :P
P.S. : Most of what I am saying is just endless rambles, so if something does not make sense just ignore it. :D

Oh, I totally agree that God is not all love! I'm sorry if I sounded like I meant that! But God's wrath does not have anything to do with Him doing evil. His wrath is still perfectly holy, as He is Himself.

P.S. Don't worry about rambling–I do it often too. :}

Ok. I totally have no idea where I was going with that. Forget I ever said that! :P Thanks for understanding my rambling :)

I learned this from a devotional that I am reading this year (The One Year Devos for Teens 2 by Susie Shellenberger), and I think it gives a clear statement that God did not create evil:

A university Professor challenged his class with his question: "Did God create everything that exists?"
One student bravely answered,"Yes he did."
The professor continued,"If god created everything, then God created evil, since evil exists. Ad according to the principle that our works define who we are, then God is evil."
No one in the entire class spoke. The professor boasted to his class that he had proven once more that faith in God is only a myth.
Another student stood and said," May I ask you a question, Professor?" The professor agreed. "Does cold exist?" The student asked.
"What kind of question is that?" the professor said. "Of course cold exists. Have you never been cold?" The students laughed.
But the young man continued. "The fact is, sir that cold does not exist. According to the laws of physics, what we consider cold is, in reality, the absence of heat. Absolute zero (-460 degrees Fahrenheit) is the total absence of heat. All matter becomes inert and incapable of reaction at that temperature. Cold doesn't exist. We have created this word to describe how we feel if we have no heat."
the student continued. "Professor, does darkness exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course if does."
"Once again you are wrong, sir. Darkness doesn't exist either. Darkness is, in reality, the absence of light. We can study light, but we can't study darkness. In fact, we can use Newton's prism to break white light into many colors and study the various wave lengths in each color. You can't measure darkness. A simple ray of light can break into a world of Darkness and illuminate it. Darkness is a term we use to describe what happens when there's no light present."
The the student asked the professor, "Sir, does evil exist?"
The professor responded, "Of course. we see it every day. It's in the daily example of human injustices and abuse. It's in the rampant cases of crime and violence in the world. These manifestations are nothing else but evil."
To this the student said, " Evil does not exist, sir. Or at least it doesn't exist unto itself. Evil is simply the absence of God. It's just like darkness and cold - a word that man has created to describe the absence of God. God didn't create evil. Evil isn't like faith or love that exist as light and heat do. Evil is the result of what happens when man doesn't have God's love present in his heart. It's like the cold that comes when there's no heat or the darkness that's a result of no light."

I hope this helps in the discussion. I myself believe that God did not create evil, but He created man with the ability to choose it.

GB, so your thought is that evil was created (or came into the world, at any rate) when man sinned?

Ian what a great example! It makes your arguement a lot more clear.

No, I believe that evil was created (or came into the world) when satan (lucifer) fell.

Great example, Ian R! (Except that I don't believe that God "created the ability to choose [evil]," but that's another discussion for another time :D)

EDIT–Thanks. :) Although, just to clarify, God DID create man with the ability to choose good or evil, but man lost the ability to choose good when he chose evil.

Also, I think that what you said at first was also correct (I just misinterpreted what you said–sorry), but when you edited it, that clarified it for me. Thanks. :)

Thanks SavedByGrace! That last thing I said was off of one of your posts because I thought it was a good way of saying what I believe, I just didn't put it into words correctly. I'll edit it.

      These are some of the biggest questions we as Christians face. The basic question being asked is “If God why evil?” We must first know that God is all perfect. He NEVER forces evil on us, which would be tyrannical. And He never created evil as that would taint His perfect righteousness. We must know that evil was created by Satan, previously Lucifer. In Genesis, the phrase “In the beginning” does not actually mean that there was a real beginning. If you go back to the original Hebrew text, the word “beginning” (In Hebrew Reshith [1]) really means “In a beginning, which was not the beginning”. It means that there were things happening before the creation of the earth and during. The first inklings of evil began when God’s chief angel, Lucifer, thought that he could be as good if not greater than God. This is a totally arrogant thought and therefore, a sin. God cast Lucifer, now Satan out of heaven and down to the newly created earth. Satan took 1/3 of the angles with him, and then he trashed the earth. So God brought into effect what is called in Hebrew “Tohu Wabohu” [2] which means desolate, empty and void. He covered the earth with Ice. In Genesis 1:2, it says “And the earth was formless and void, and darkness was moving over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.” This is when God carried out the thawing and 7 days of creation. [3]

      Then Satan moved to earth again with his demons and is still the ruler if the earth. Sin among man started out in the Garden of Eden. When Adam ate the forbidden fruit, he sinned and brought evil into the human race and therefore the world. Sin and evil is now genetically passed down through the man. However, neither we, nor the angels are puppets; God gave all of us something called volition or free choice. This means that we have the ability to make a righteous or evil choice. So now evil is in the human race. Then we have Satan as the ruler over the earth. Proof of this is found in Mathew 4:8-9 “Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. And he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.”[4] This shows that Satan is the ruler over this world and as he is the prince of darkness, he brings evil to the world. 


      Why do terrible things happen to innocent people? It seems cruel that seemingly innocent people are hurled in to terrible adversity. There are three answers to this. One, the person involved could be an unbeliever and God is showing them by a tough circumstance that He is the answer and that they must come to Him. Two, the person is a believer and is going through a difficult test on their way to spiritual maturity. Three, the person/ people involved are a believer that has strayed too far and God has had to jerk them back into the “straight and narrow” way by a severe lesson that would get their attention. So in short, God is either calling an unbeliever that wouldn’t come by any other means, or He is giving a test, or He is punishing someone. That is why it is never ok to say that there must be no God because a loving God would never do this. Yes he loves, but He is also a just God. In Proverbs 13:24	 it says “He who spares his rod hates his son, but he who loves him disciplines him promptly” and also in Proverbs 23:13-14 “Do not withhold correction from a child, for if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, and deliver his soul from hell.” [5]We as believers are God’s children. And sometimes He has to bring us back to Him via discipline. He would rather not but if He has to do it He will.

FOOTNOTES
[1] Zondervan, The Strongest NASB Exhaustive Concordance, Grand Rapids, The Lockman foundation, The Zondervan Corporation, 1981,1998,2000
[2] Thieme R.B. Jr., Chaos Creation and restoration, Houston, R.B. Thieme Jr. Bible ministries, 1973
[3] Ibid
[4] The Holy Bible NASB, La Habra, the Lockman Foundation, 1960
[5] Ibid

Umm, the only innocent person who had terrible things done to Him was Jesus. He was the only person who was ever innocent. No bad things happen to innocent people today, because there are no innocent people. Every single person alive on this earth deserves death and Hell. It is only by the mercy of God that the entire human race is not wiped off at any moment.

We should not be asking why bad things happen to good people (because they don't), but we should be asking, why do good things ever happen to bad people?

I do not understand what you mean by "the phrase 'In the beginning' does not actually mean that there was a real beginning." I looked up the word "reshith" in Strong's lexicon, and it does mean "a beginning," but that does not mean it was not "THE beginning." There were not things happening before the creation of the earth, or God would have made such more clear in his Word. The Bible says nothing of Satan trashing the earth, as you put it, and it also says nothing of the world being covered with ice, nor of it thawing at the six days of Creation. This is being squeezed into the text when it is not implied at all.

Also, I disagree with what you said about "free choice." I believe that we cannot choose good, and that we are slaves (if you want to call that "puppets," go ahead) to wickedness. How do I draw this conclusion? I have two verses as examples:

Romans 8:9–
"the sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so."

Romans 3:10-11–
"As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God."

These verses show that we cannot "choose God," and, therefore, cannot choose good, and other verses in the Bible show that unbelievers are held captive to sin; this would include all of us before God changes our hearts. Since we cannot choose God, He MUST change our hearts, or we will never be saved.

Also, I would answer exactly as COS did regarding your comments on "terrible things happening to innocent people." There has never been an innocent person except for Christ, and He CHOSE to suffer–for us.

SBG, I don't understand how you can draw that conclusion when there are a multitude of verses that talk about the free choice of man. A few examples:

Deuteronomy 30:19 - "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:"

Joshua 24:15 - "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve…but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Luke 13:34 - "…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!"

Proverbs 1:29 - "For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:"

When I see verses like these compared with Romans 8:9 and 3:10-11, I come to this conclusion. I do not believe that man can choose God by his own will. Man cannot choose God by himself; this is a description of our inherent sin nature. The reason this is is because man cannot see why he would want to choose God until God makes it plain to him. I also do not believe that we have no free will. Instead, like God's Bondslave said, I believe that God invites us to Himself, but we must choose whether to come or not. HE makes it possible to choose the good, but WE are the ones who must choose it. God wants all of humanity to be saved, but He will not force us to choose it because the reward of everlasting life is just that: a reward for being righteous on the earth. The punishment of eternal death is just that: a punishment for being evil on the earth. If God rewards or punishes according to His choices to save or reject, then He is partial. But the Bible clearly says that "God is no respecter of persons" (Acts 10:34).
An illustration from the Bible: Matthew 9:28-29 says, "And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you." God offers, we accept, He saves. Luke 13:34-35 says, "…how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord." God offers, we reject, He does not save and therefore must punish.
To sum up: God makes eternal life possible, and He does the saving, but we choose whether it happens.

Okay Nicolas, I've given you my long-due answer. It's your turn. :)

Well, I'll answer you, Matthew… But maybe I should make you wait three months too. ;P Just kidding–sorta. :) I will have to wait a while before answering you, because I am quite busy and wouldn't have time to type out the long answer that would be needed to respond to you. And I also sorta need to dust off the ol' "Bondage of the Will" by Martin Luther to help me… :)

If God can not stand to b in the presence of evil how could he create it?

If don't believe God created evil… in the creation account of Genesis, every thing God created was good. That doesn't include evil.

Good point.

I would say that God defines Evil.
God made a command You obey it = good, you disobey it = evil

I have to disagree with you… sort of! God does not not directly define evil, His law does, (Ex 20:1-17) but He is the maker of that law, so you are right in a way.

However, Christians are not under the law. Instead, we are set free from sin because we are under grace. (Rom 6:14)

Still in the beginning God made a Law, "don't eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil"
If you don't eat than that is good, if you do eat then that is bad.
So as soon as God made this command evil came into existence.
Right?

I think it was there but he just made it a clear choice there.

okay. so that is where evil was made a choice to human beings.

Not exactly. You see, everyone has the Law of God written on their hearts.

Also, that was not when evil came into existence. Satan had already fallen from Heaven because of his sin of pride.