Does God MAKE you sin?

Does God MAKE you sin? If God controls everything does he MAKE us sin? Or do we have free will and thus we control when we sin?

Discuss

We have free will and thus we control when we sin.

That is my view of this topic.

Can you please give me verses that prove that we have free will. Do we have free will all the time or just over when we sin?

I counter bring me verses that prove we have no choice whatsoever in our salvation. And also, they had a huge topic called Free Will vs. Predestination that has many answers to everyones questions. Maybe you could go there and come back here if you have anymore questions :D

I agree–the answer to all your questions will very likely be found somewhere on the topic that SoulWinner mentioned. But here are a couple of verses that show that we have no choice in our salvation:

Romans 8:7-8–
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
(Please don't tell me that "those who are in the flesh" does not refer to just any unbeliever. Look at the context–it does.)

John 3:27–
"A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven."

I could come up with a few more, but I can't think of any at the moment. :P Now it's your turn. :)

I don't really want to delve into what has already become a heated issue here, but just to keep everything on a logical track… :)

We are discussing whether God makes people SIN, as opposed to causes our salvation. Freewill vs. Predestination refers to the debate regarding salvation, which isn't really the topic here. SavedByGrace, for clarification, are you advocating that God does make us sin? You say we have no choice to do good, but we do have a choice to do bad? A choice implies a decision to do one thing as opposed to another. Under your reasoning, we have no choice but to sin. Am I understanding your position correctly?

SBG - can you explain what you mean when you say we have "no choice in our salvation"?

@jimmy: We sin because that is our nature and we can't stop sinning while we are unsaved. Once God has saved us we have to fight against the old man…our old nature. Thus when we are unsaved we have no choice but to sin…everything we do is sin in God's eyes. And when we are saved we are tempted to sin by the lust of the flesh. And we need to fight against the flesh.

In short, no, God doesn't make us sin. But He doesn't stop us. Due to the evil in our hearts, we have the potential to sin grossly all day long every day. It's only by His restraining, common grace that we don't sin all the time. So, when we do sin, it's because He isn't restraining us from sinning.

God has control over all things, so He is the primary, albeit indirect, cause of our sin. But we are still responsible, because the sin is coming from our own hearts.

@biblebee: I understand. I was just asking for clarification of SavedByGrace's position. :)

On your post, though, for clarification (I do like logic), would you say that our moment of "falling away" is not our doing? I think you would agree, for instance, that infants are saved and go to Heaven. Because of that, they haven't necessarily sinned and have not fallen away. With that, I hope, established, would you say that the first time each one of us sins (thereby causing us to fall away) was not our doing. If it wasn't our choice, then how can we be condemned for something that wasn't truly our complete doing?

Once again, I am just asking for clarification. :)

@Rachel–When I say that we have no choice in our salvation, I mean that we cannot "choose" to be saved; it comes completely from God, apart from any choice of ours.

I do not agree that infants are saved and go to Heaven. Everyone is born in sin. When Adam sinned the whole human race was plunged into sin. We are all born in sin and we live in sin until we are saved.

Biblebee, why would you say that we are born in sin? I agree that we are all born in a sin nature, but I don't believe it is supported that, from the moment of our conception, we are alienated from God (please correct me if I am wrong. Theological discussions should be encouraging and uplifting :). Why are we condemned to death and eternal suffering? Because we have sinned. I do not believe we are condemned just because Adam sinned. Adam sinned, and thus we have the capability and the inclination to do so, but that does not, I believe, condemn us all to eternal suffering automatically. What is a sin nature? It is a natural inclination to sin. It is not an automatic burden of sin from the beginning of life. We individually make the choice to sin, and from that point we are its slaves and will continue to sin until God saves us through His grace.

Jimmy: "They answered him, 1 Corinthians 15:21-22

"What is man, that he can be pure? Or he who is born of a woman, that he can be righteous?" ~ Job 15:14

Even the Pharisees knew that everyone was born in sin. Man is a sinner from birth.

Please give me verses that prove that we are not born in sin.

Biblebee, very interesting verses! In response, I would say that they do not really prove the point. I have four responses to this (remember, this is all in good faith. We need to try to edify one another :) ).

First, both passages make use of the word "born." This isn't really a response (and not one of my main points), but the passages do not then refer to children inside the womb. Are they sinners as well?

Second, your first quote is referring to the Pharisees as they are mocking Jesus. I really don't think that that is credible enough to be considered solid theology (we know that the Pharisees had some very "incorrect" views on life).

Third, I would say that the Job passage doesn't say that even infants sin or are sinners from birth. It is saying that mankind, from birth, is doomed to sin. With this I ardently agree. Because of our fallen sin nature, we are all inclined to do evil, and eventually we all do. Remember, though, that sin is rebellion against God our Father. This leads my to my final response.

Finally, I believe we (both of us, or all who are watching :) need to come to a final conclusion as to what sin is. Sin, I believe, is disobedience to God and rebellion against his Word. To tie this back in with our conversation, what sin has or can infants (who can hardly recognize objects or haven't even left the room) commit? Why are any of us sent to Hell? In Romans, God says "the wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23). Clearly, we are punished eternally because we sin, not because of our capacity to sin. With that in mind, I ask again, what sin can an unborn child or a newborn commit? The answer, I believe, is nothing. David himself, a man even more godly than the Pharisees (and, one might argue, Job), believed himself that his infant who passed away was in Heaven with God. This would imply that the child had, as yet, done nothing against the commandments of God.

You asked for verses that say we are not born in a sin nature? Here is an example verse in support of my position: Romans 9:11 "For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth" (It is taken in context). I will surely spend a little bit of time researching if you desire more verses, but for now, logic, as well as God's Word, seems to dictate that an unborn child cannot sin (how could it do so with barely the knowledge of how to even think and perceive). Because we are sentenced for the crime, not the capacity to do the crime, infants cannot be sentenced to eternal destruction (there is a view out there that says that God knows which infants will accept him later in life, so those that die will go to Heaven, and those that would reject him won't, but I am not entirely sure I agree with this.). I agree that there is countless evidence that we are all born the descendants of Adam, as capable and as willing to do evil as he, but we have not done anything as at birth to deserve the sentence. Be assured, however, that , as each one of us grows, we each will fall, as Romans 3:23 so aptly puts it.

What do you think? I am anxious to know your thoughts. :)

I couldn't find your first verse (perhaps the reference was incorrect? No biggie though :) I think the Pharisees are reffering to Jesus supposedly being born out of adultery, when really it was the Holy Spirit workng in Mary. The second verse seems to say that all men will sin but it doesn't definitely say that men are born sinning. As for your request for verses, I have absolutely no idea because I have not really studied this topic at all. I will talk to my youth minister tomorrow :D

Jimmy: You said sin is disobedience to God and His Word. I agree with this. But where does sin come from? It comes from our hearts. The first sin we sin (as infants or toddlers) comes straight from our hearts. Which means our heart was bad all along. If our heart was not bad, we would not have sinned. But because our heart is bad, we sin, all the time. Even before we personally commit any sin, we have a bad, wicked, sinful, and rebellious heart. It just hasn't had the chance to show forth its wickedness by disobedience because of mental capabilities and etc.
From conception our hearts are bad.
But why is this true? Because our parents are sinners (with all due respect). David said as much in Psalm 51 "In sin did my mother conceive me". No unclean thing (or person) can bring forth a clean thing. Our parents' cannot bring forth a child who's heart is natively clean.
But why are our parent's hearts bad? Because THEIR parents' hearts were bad…………which brings us all the way back to Adam and Eve.
When they had Cain and Abel, they passed their fallen, sinful nature down to them, and so on and so forth through the ages. Because we all come from the same two people, we all have sinful hearts.
We have no choice in the matter! We can't choose THAT we're born; and neither can we choose what type of heart we are born with.
(This is why Christ had to be conceived by the Holy Spirit. If he had been conceived by ordinary procreation, He would have had a sin nature. But because He was born by SUPERnatural procreation, He had no sin nature.)
In light of the above, I believe that babies, because they are born with sinful hearts, and are thus wicked and contrary to God, even though they have not overtly revealed this, will not go direct to heaven. Some believe that the Holy Spirit can save (elect) babies who die…some complications with that position, but I might agree with it. But the Scripture doesn't teach that babies are a blank slate when they come out of the womb.

In the grandest scheme of things, God views all humans as under two different federal heads—under two different people. The first is Adam, and the second is Christ, the last Adam. (See Romans 5:12 and following.)
All men are born by nature into the first Adam's 'camp' - under his umbrella, so to speak. And because Adam sinned, through him all are sinners also; all inherit the sin nature he acquired in the garden of Eden through the fall. We have no choice in this.

Some men (the elect) are born by the Spirit (regeneration; salvation) into the last Adam's 'camp' - under HIS umbrella. And because HE (Christ) did NOT sin, through HIM all (in His camp) are made RIGHTEOUS also; we all inherit HIS perfect righteousness. We have no choice in this either.

Just as we did not choose to be born into the Kingdom of Adam when our parents conceived us, so we also do not choose to be born into the Kingdom of Christ when the Holy Spirit conceives us (we are born again).
In both cases, we are simply born - without any exercise in our wills. Subsequent to our births (whether physical or spiritual) we WILL all of our actions in accordance to our nature.
In Adam, we inherit a sin nature, so we WILL to sin; always and only.

In Christ, we have a renewed nature, so we WILL to obey God; however, the old man remains in us to some degree, so we do not always and only will what is good and right (that shall be true of us in heaven when our salvation is completed by our glorification, though).

The parallels are amazing, aren't they?
Got to go now. BTW, sorry for the really long post.

Karthmin, thank you for your response to my post. I would have to say that I agree with it completely. We sin because we inherit sinful hearts as a result of Adam's fall. I have no problem with that (I have 99% common ground, I think, with you and Biblebee :).

This brings me, though, back to my point regarding sin. As you agreed, sin is rebellion against God. Why are we sent to Hell? Because, as Romans 6 says, we sin. From the moment of our conception, we all inherit a heart and a will to sin. However, we have not, at that time, actually rebelled against God. Think of Adam. He had the ability to sin, yet his heart, before the fall, was not in rebellion. It is different in our case, but some of the concept is retained. As a result of Adam's fall, we now have the inclination to sin, and I believe that we all shall. Although our heart is inclined to rebel, that doesn't mean we actually have. An unborn child cannot steal or murder or harbor selfish thoughts. As a result, they have not broken God's commands and have not sinned. When they are born, this stays the same: they have not sinned. As they grow older, however, the wickedness of their hearts will show and they will sin, thus becoming condemned to Hell until God chooses to save them. I guess the discrepancy comes down to "born in sin." I believe it means we all have the inward inclination to do evil, but that doesn't mean we have yet rebelled.

Please let me know if you want me to clarify anything. I appreciate your taking so much of your time to respond to my post. :)

What about aborted babies? I'm sure we can all agree that a baby is living as soon as it is conceived, but where would this baby go if it was murdered by its mother?

@jimmy: God cannot stand sin. I believe that we are all born with a sinful heart. So if an infant dies without "doing any sin" they would still not go to heaven because they have a sinful heart. We have all rebelled because we have a sinful heart. A sinful heart is a sin against God…thus we all have sinned.

@biblebee: I think I see your point, but, according to your perspective, what exactly is a sinful heart? What is the "sin" in the sinful heart. What type of rebellion, for instance, is characterized by it?

I haven't looked fully through this discussion yet, so I don't know if someone already posted this verse:

Psalm 51:5–
"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me."

I believe that babies–inside or outside the womb–are sinful and at enmity with God, whether or not they have yet shown that by actually sinning. Adam's sin in the Garden gave us all a sinful nature, causing all of us to deserve to die (see Romans 5; exactly where in that chapter I don't remember). I hope this adds to the discussion. :)

James 1 : 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

To your original question

Thanks John Project.

@jimmy: If someone is an unbeliever and don't have a regenerate heart they have a sinful heart. A heart that is full of sin. So everything they do is done out of sin. They always have that sinful heart until they are saved.

Actually didn't take that long….but your welcome anyway.
As SBG said, even though babies haven't expressed their sinful hearts, their hearts are still sinFULL, so I believe God is just to send them to hell.
As you agree, babies have bad hearts [which they inherit ultimately from Adam] which means they are at enmity with God, though they cannot show it outwardly [yet]. Enmity with God is sinful. So that's why I believe they could not be saved.
A bad tree brings forth bad fruit. I believe the tree itself (the soul) is subject to God's judgment whether or not it has borne the bad fruit it will inevitably bear. It's just as evil either way.
Hope that helps.

@all - This (or more properly my first comment) ties into the discussion of Does God make us sin? by……
Showing that all humans act in accordance to their wills. In Adam, we all do evil, because our will only wants to do evil. In Christ, we do good, because our will wants to do good. But we can't make the transformation from bad will to good will. God has to do that for us.
God doesn't MAKE us sin, He LETS (permits, allows) us to sin. In His sovereign will, He does not restrain native man from fulfilling the desires of his fallen will…except those whom He redeems and whose wills He changes through regeneration.
Every thing that every human does is in accordance with the nature of his will. God doesn't MAKE us do anything. But He does change our wills so that we will to do good things.
Hope that wasn't too confusing.

Whoa Karthmin! If babies go to hell, explain Isiah 7:16
"For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken."

Right there, it's saying that there is a time when a child is old enough to be accountable for his sins. If a child isn't old enough to be accountable, how can he reject Christ?

Or in 2 Samuel, when David sinned with Bathsheba, and their first child died. While the child was dying, David "fasted and went and lay all night on the ground" (2 Samuel 12:16). But when the child died, he "arose from the ground, washed, anointed himself, and changed his clothes; and he came into the house of the LORD and worshipped. Then he came to his own house, and when he requested, they set food before him and he ate."(2 Samuel 12:20) His servants wondered at his certain change, and he replied "'While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, 'Who knows, the LORD may be gracious to me, that the child may live'. But now he has died, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I will go to him, but he will not return to me."(2 Samuel 12:22-23)

Is David saying that he will go to hell, and be with the child? Of course not! We know that David was saved, and that he was certain of the fact that he would go to heaven.

Isn't that 2 Samuel passage talking of physical life and death?

So David's saying "I'll go to him in the ground."? Really? Before that, he said "Can I bring him back again?" as in, can I make his spirit return to his body? Then he goes on to say "I will go to him," as in, my spirit will be reunited with him.

Not trying to get into a big debate, because I don't have the time. But I have always taken it as physical life and death…

He's saying that the the baby's dead, and in heaven, and so can't come back to Earth. But that he can die, and go to heaven, and will be with the baby there. Hope it helps!

I'm going to go a little along the lines of what Sam said. How can these babies be full of sin if they have not actually sinned? Can a baby make a concious decision to disobey God? No! Babies are babies, innocent! A child has absolutely no idea what it is doing because it is just living. Psalm 106:38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
1 Corinthians 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

You see, the Bible speaks of the innocence of children. It also speaks of the punishment of those who hurt these innocent children. What about the 56 million children that have been legally aborted since Roe v. Wade was passed? Are you saying all of them went to Hell because they are supposedly "sinning in the womb"? I don't think God can punish someone for sinning when they never sinned bro :/

That reminds me of the story in the book Heaven is For Real. Colton's mother had had a miscarriage (On my actual birthday by the way. Interesting.) and Colton spoke of seeing her in Heaven. Of course we can't believe everything we hear right?

I read that book. I'm not totally sure whether to believe it or not, but from what I read in 2 Samuel, I wouldn't discount it. Of course, there is no Scriptural evidence for Colten's story, so we can't absolutely say that it's true( although I'm not denying his experience).

That's exactly what I was thinking. I tend not to base too much of what I believe on authorities outside of the Bible. So, until I find sciptural evidence to totally discredit or prove Colton's story, I remain neutral.

Exactly.

Augh! No! I'm going to have to debate with someone from church?? With SAM??? composes himself Okay, so I have to say that I don't agree with you. I believe that the sinful nature causes us all to be guilty from conception, whether or not we have yet actually sinned. I don't think Isaiah 7:16 proves anything one way or the other here–it is merely saying that children don't know the difference between right and wrong, not that they are innocent. For the 2 Samuel 12 passage, I don't think that David is talking about going to him in heaven, but into the ground. David said that he could not bring back his child from death, but that he would someday go to him in death.

I don't understand what 1 Corinthians 13:11 has to do with anything, SoulWinner, except that it speaks of children. For Mark 10:15, Jesus was talking about the simple, unquestioning faith of a child; not a child's innocence. For Psalm 106:38, God is not saying that the land was polluted with blood merely because it was the blood of children, but because it was the blood of human beings! If they had been sacrificing adults, the verse still would have said that the land was polluted with blood.

However, although I am convinced that babies are guilty and deserve to go to hell, I do not know whether all of them do. Who knows? Maybe God works in the hearts of even babies in the womb to repent and have faith in Christ. But the Bible isn't too clear on that issue. :)

Heaven Is For Real: Can someone really go to heaven without dying? I see no Scriptural evidence for it.
I'm not saying Colton didn't have some sort of experience….but you have to keep in mind that he was like four years old.
Definitely a hard issue to decide either way on, though.

Babies: Some babies might be elect….so the Holy Spirit could very plausibly work salvation in them. Salvation is a miracle anyway, so whether it's worked in an infant or an adult…it's just as much impossible for man.
Sam, I'm convinced that David was saying that he will go to the grave (P. Water's position, btw) but the baby will never came back to him from the grave. No mention of heaven or hell as the destination of the baby. It was, I'm pretty sure, a common way to speak in the Hebrew culture. [Death and Sheol are mentioned as something that everyone (saved or not) goes to in Ecclesiastes a lot.]

But to the original issue:
I have to come back to WHY do we commit our first personal sin? Because their hearts are bad. We all agree on that.
What I'm saying is that if you're heart is bad, you are fundamentally an unclean, wicked being, and God cannot accept you into heaven. This is a NECESSITY from the first reality (that we have bad hearts).
A bad tree is BAD whether it bears bad fruit or is not yet fully mature. Whether infant or adult, subconscious or fully cognizant, all humans are born as bad trees. And EVERYONE deserves to go to hell because of that innate badness. Unless God intervenes.
Another thing. To go back to the federal-head-first Adam-last Adam-thing: All under Adam have Adam's sin NATURE imputed to them, which I already discussed. What I failed to mention there was that his SIN is also imputed to us, and we suffer for it. And babies are not exempt from this imputation. That's pretty awful news, and from our human perspectives, it's also not fair at all.
But the flip-side of this truth is that everyone under the last Adam - Christ - also have Christ's NATURE imputed to them, AS WELL AS His RIGHTEOUSNESS. We shouldn't think of this as fair at all either.

Neither of these are "fair" in the sense we like to use. It's all completely sovereign. Most people don't have any problem with Christ's righteousness being imputed to Christians, but they have a definite problem with Adam's unrighteousnes being imputed to ALL men by nature. What you must realize is that the two go hand-in-hand. If you believe the one, you must believe the other.

However, the issue about babies going to hell or heaven isn't the biggest of doctrinal issues. Some very godly men of antiquity believed quite firmly that babies go to heaven. It's not really something to have a huge shing-ding over; though, having said that, there can be some pretty dramatic outworkings to different positions on this issue.
So I'll say that I've posited my position clearly enough and stop posting such long posts.
Anyway, this wasn't quite the main point of the thread in the first place. So……

TTFN
Karthmin

What about Mark 10:14, which says "But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. ". For such is the kingdom of God? It's talking about the innocence of little children here, who are too young to be accountable for sin! If they're too young to even choose right from wrong, how can they sin? How can they be condemned if they haven't sinned?

Ditto, Sam!

I'll explain to you what I meant by using these scriptures. 1 Corinthians 13:11 speaks of how children think totally different than adults, they understand things differently than adults, and they spoke things differently then adults. Why? They are just innocent children who rely on their parents to raise them, who have no way to tell between right and wrong. For Mark 10:15, I agree that it talks of the faith of a child but do you know why the child is so trusting? Because it is innocent! Have you seen the way little kids just go around trusting everyone? It's because they figure everyone around them is just as nice as their parents (later they find out that is not true, but right now, they are still innocent). For the Psalms 106:38 text I was trying to show you how God punishes those who shed innocent blood, even the blood of children. Why would God call it innocent blood if they are in fact not innocent? I just hope you strongly consider what you are saying. You are condeming most of the babies that have died to an eternity in Hell just because of scikness or a terrible decision by their parents. Another question: What about babies that are miscarried? Where do you think they go?

Exactly SoulWinner! You used all the Scriptures and arguments I was about to use! Great job!

Just thought of something. You believe that just by being alive, these babies are sinning. Just by breathing the air on this Earth and actually just by receiving nourishment from their mother's umbilical cord, they are sinning. Doesn't that mean that everyone is sinning by living? How is it possible for a Christian to go to Heaven if he is constantly sinning by doing everyday stuff? Also, babies have no knowledge of good and evil, so they are basically as Adam and Eve were before the Fall. I can't reiterate this enough, babies are completely innocent.
@Sam It's good we agree on something, bro. What can I say, I love babies :D

"What can I say, I love babies :D"

AGREED!

I love babies to :D

But the babies are born with a sinful heart. Right from the start they have a sinful heart. But Christians have been given a new heart…a clean heart. So Christians, because they have been saved and given a new, pure heart cannot be sinning by just living.

So babies are thinking about sinning even though studies have shown that as babies we do not have the ability to reason or think? How can a baby be sinning if it can't think of the act it is doing? Also, what sins are babies commiting? A new baby brings joy to a family, not sorrow which is all sin brings.

No, they aren't thinking about sinning. But every person's heart is sinful from the time of birth until they are truly saved. And if they have a sinful heart then they are sinning. Do you agree that every person has a sinful nature? Well, that sinful nature comes from the heart. Once it sins "for the first time" are you saying that right then it's heart became evil? The baby has an evil heart from birth. And, I do agree the baby brings joy not sorrow but sometimes the sorrow of sin is delayed a bit.

@jimmy: Look at what you started :D

I think we are all born with the tendency to sin later in life, but I do not think babies have the ability to sin. Do you think babies are just sitting in their cribs waiting for the days when they can walk around and sin? I guess babies are just little devils then? Until children have been taught the difference between right and wrong they are completely innocent. Once a child is taught the difference between right and wrong then they are accountable for their actions. Since a baby cannot be taught the difference between right and wrong it cannot be held accountable for anything it does. Why would God who is compassionate and loving send innocent little babies to Hell just because they were born? Thats like sending a baby to Jail because you knew it would eventually murder someone. That's not justice or love, just plain hate.

Awesome argument bro! I totally agree! And I love babies too! But newborns scare me. Which is why I don't hole any baby until they can sit upright by themselves.

Lol the only newborns that somewhat scare me are the literal newborns because their skin is transluscent and all. After that I can't get enough of them :)

I did not say that babies are SINNING even when they are unborn, but that they are SINFUL. Did the Fall mean nothing? Did it just cause us to want to sin, and nothing else? It was the Fall that made us guilty before God, and we are that way even before we are born. I'm not saying all this just because I don't like babies or I'm insensitive. I know what it's like to lose a baby. I'm saying it because I think it's what Scripture says. (BTW, in your post where you explained why you used the verses you did, you kept using the word "innocent" as if it meant "completely pure before God." This is not what those verses meant.)