Does God MAKE you sin?

How can you be full of sin if you have never sinned? Obviously the Fall means quite a lot or we would not be in this predicament we are in. I do think these scriptures are saying that children are innocent, and ther are definitely a few more I can find. I'll get back to you later.

"How can you be full of sin if you have never sinned?" Because of the Fall! "This predicament we are in" is a result of the sinful nature, which condemns us all to hell!

Romans 5:12-14–
"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—for sin indeed was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not counted where there is no law. Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come."

These people didn't even know they were breaking the law, and yet God still condemned them! This is not injustice; it is God choosing to form the "clay" into what He desires it to be. And He has every right to do that!

So babies are full of every sin imaginable and thus so are all human beings? Oh excuse me, except for the Elect. Romans 5:12-14 is talking of how sin and death reigned over everyone from Adam to Moses. During Moses's time was when God told them the many sacrifices they had to offer to cover their sins. Why does it say sin is not counted where there is no law?

@biblebee: I'm sorry this discussion got so heated! I guess I really didn't know what I started. :)

I haven't really had the chance to respond or even watch this thread. I have been at a debate tournament in Texas. :) I will, however, as soon as I am able, try to respond to you all (you all have some very interesting and convincing arguments. As of right now, I am sitting on the fence. For some reason, I can't really understand half-presented arguments. I like to know everyone's position exactly before I really give an opinion. In asking all y'alls' opinion, I was just trying to understand, not really spark a debate. Your responses, though, have been truly fascinating). :)

@jimmy: That's okay :D:D:D

@SoulWinner: I would hold newborns and babies all day :D:D No, babies don't have every sin imaginable in their hearts all the time. But their heart is evil. Because when Adam sinned we all sinned with him.

What about Romans 10:14:
"How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher? " If they don't even have the mental capacity to believe in or on something or someone, how can they go to hell? For not accepting something they don't even have the ability to accept?

I have question.
When the rapture happens will all the babies be left? or will it be just the "elect" that will go? Or will there be no elect during that time period? Or maybe you don't believe the rapture will happen till after whatever. (don't want to debate that on this topic. :) )

Umm… what if you don't believe in the rapture? I hope this doesn't start another huge debate… But if the rapture were to occur, those who have already been saved would go to heaven. The "elect" at that time would have already been saved, obviously, because God would not bring unsaved people to heaven. But again, I'm not sure I believe in the rapture anyway…

"If they don't even have the mental capacity to believe in or on something or someone, how can they go to hell? For not accepting something they don't even have the ability to accept?"

Well, I think that whether or not we are able to accept it is not the point. God cannot tolerate anything unclean (e.g., the sinful nature…) in His presence, so it would be a direct violation of His nature to bring something to heaven that has not been purified of its uncleanness. And anyway, maybe God can give babies the mental capacity to believe. All things are possible with Him; if He can save us thick-skulled mature humans, I think He has the ability to save babies. But whether He does that or not is the real question…

Wow! This topic has gone from "Does God MAKE you sin?" to "Will Babies go to Heaven?" :D

@Carissa That is so true! This topic has forced me to think about my beliefs and has really helped me so, thank you for starting it! :D

@Caleb …

@Nicholas: "What if you don't believe in the rapture?"

1st Thessalonians 4:16-18 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Sounds like a rapture to me!!! But I shouldn't let this get off topic!

The one word answer to the question this topic is:

No.

I've been meaning to say that all along but I just never got around to saying it!

:)

@SoulWinner: It has done the same for me :D

Jordan, in order that this discussion will not get even further off-topic, I have created a new forum called "Rapture?" where we can discuss this subject further. I'd be glad to hear your thoughts there. :)

"When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters. (James 1:13-16 NIV)"

It's important to understand that although a baby is concieved in inquity, that baby still would go to heaven if he died before he was old enough to make a conscious descision to sin. But that age comes fast. Just think of a babies first words, "me", "mine", etc.:)

God doesn't necessarily "make" us sin, but we are born with a sinful, depraved nature that can do NOTHING BUT SIN. GOT THAT??? We can't choose God, HE must choose us. We read in the Bible about how God hardened Pharoah's heart, but it also said the Pharoah hardened his own heart. I think we ALL sin because we have a sin nature, not becuase we are robots:) It also says that God has created vessels for wrath and vessels for honour. It's all in His Sovereign Grace to bring Him honour and Glory, and to magnify His name.

NOTE: I don't mean to be replying necessarily to specific people, but just posting in the general topic:) I'm bad with technology! Sorry!

But if we are all born with a sinful nature and God can not stand sin then babies can not go to heaven because they are sinful.

Then we get into another interesting question: What exactly IS a sin nature?

WRONG. Though born IN sin, a baby is not yet able to stand before the judgement seat of Christ and testify for himself, so he cannot be judged! What can a baby be condemned for, if his mind is not old enough to understand? You're error here is using humanistic reasoning to understand spiritual matters. I'm not sure if I exactly understand your post, however. If anyone reading this actaully believes that babies/aborted children go to hell, please post I would like to give you some verses. But I hope I am just misunderstanding your position….

The Bible clearly answers your question:

Jeremiah 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psalms 14:3: "They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one."

Our sin nature is our desires to do nothing but sin. The Bible says that in Adam all DIED. We are all DEAD and can not longer do good, so Christ came to die for our sins and set us free! Through His irressistible Grace he calls us unto himself.

A baby, though born with a sin nature, has not reached accountability. You don't hand a 2-year-old a shotgun and tell him not to shoot it, he wouldn't understand! We don't remember how it was when we were one, we didn't yet know right from wrong! I sure hope I am just misunderstanding ya'll, when it seems you think that babies go to hell. Please clarify!

Thanks, Cowboy4Christ. That was quite helpful! :)

Here's a verse that might clarify about babies going to heaven:

1 Corin 7:14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

I think as the Scripture states, that babies whose parents are sanctified are sure to go to heaven.

You're not being honest with me, and you're not being honest with the Bible taking a verses out of context like that. There's a word for that in the Bible, but I'm not going to say it. ALL babies will go to heaven, that's what the Bible says. Any HONEST Bible-believing person understands that a baby who is unable to be accountable NO MATTER WHAT THE PARENTS BELIEVE will go to heaven. In 2nd Samuel we read the farmiliar story of David and Bethsheba. Here's a baby who is born in FORNICATION and baby WHO NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN BORN, a baby WHO'S FATHER WAS MURDERED TO COVER UP THE SIN, and the Bible says that this ilegimate child IS IN HEAVEN RIGHT NOW. 2 Samuel 12:23: "But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me." "I SHALL GO TO HIM,", (David talking), David will join this baby in the air he says! Got that in your noggin? It's not rocket science, it's in the Bible. Anyone who challenges this is BLASPHEMING and doesn't understand the character of our HOLY God! Let's not pull one verses TOTALLY OUT OF CONTEXT and build a whole doctrine of of that! The Bible says we are ALL born in sin, it don't say just thoses with unbelievers as parents.

Romans 4:15: "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression." Babies, aborted children, and the mentally handicapped though born with a sin nature that have been killed before they have been able to act out on the sin nature, can't be judged, that's what the Bible says!

Now let's look at Romans 5:13: "(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law." Got that in your noggin? SIn is not imputed to a baby who is mentally incapable of sinning!

I suppose I'm blaspheming then. And I'm not an honest, Bible-believing person. I just love all of these new derogatory ways you're coming up with to refer to us and our arguments. It would seem that your arguments aren't good enough to stand by themselves, because you have to continually resort to unChristlike, disparaging comments toward your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ.

I must say, however, I do appreciate your use of Scripture here, for once. ;)

What do you believe about Psalm 51:5? It says, "In sin my mother conceived me." We are sinful from birth. We have the sin of Adam on our account. Where in the Bible do you see that Adam's sin is only imputed once children reach a magical age where they can suddenly be accountable for their sin?

I can quote Romans 5 too. Verse 12: "Death came to all men, because all sinned." All sinned. Not just those who were old enough to make decisions for themselves. " Verse 19: "Through the one man, the many were made sinners." Babies are conceived as sinners. There is no way around it.

You said: "Babies, aborted children, and the mentally handicapped though born with a sin nature that have been killed before they have been able to act out on the sin nature, can't be judged, that's what the Bible says!"

That is very dishonest. The Bible does not say that. You may think you can draw principles from the Bible that imply that, but by no means does the Bible say that. You accused Eunice Sophia of taking verses out of context. And you consistently shout the mantra, "Context, context, context!" And yet, you ignore the context in these verses from Romans that you posted.

Paul clarifies these verses when he says a few chapters later in Romans 7 that the law brought the knowledge of sin to him. It's not that there is no possibility for sin without law (we all have God's law in our hearts), but the point is that we get an idea of what our sin actually is when we have the law. We still sinned before we knew the law, we just didn't know it (in a sense). Can someone use the excuse that they didn't know that the speed limit was 25 mph, if they get pulled over for going 60? No, not really. The law is there, whether we know it or not. And, in fact, Paul says that when the law comes and shows us what sin is, it makes us want to sin even more–implying that there was already sin before the law.

See, your arguments don't really stand up here. Now, I will grant you that the 2 Samuel verse is somewhat problematic. But we don't make a doctrine from the minority texts in Scripture. We don't take a tiny part of a verse and say, "See! This negates many other passages of Scripture!" Instead, we glean doctrines from the majority position of Scripture, and then when minorities of passages seem to contradict that, we use the majority to reconcile them together–not vice versa.

I will say again, I was able to write this post without using all caps or harsh words (though it was tempting, I must admit). You seem to be unable to do that, which, again, makes me wonder how valid you actually believe your argument to be, if it can't stand it's ground without being supported by the weak, unprofessional insults that you keep throwing out.

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0411.htm

• 'Infant Salvation'

Since you said I was wrong in my interpretation of the Scripture, I would appreciate (Honestly) if you could spare some time and explain the verse 1 Corin 7:14 taking into account its context as well as the time of dispensation.

@ Cowboy4Christ:
I think you need to tone down your delivery. To speak "cowboy language", you seem to be getting a little too big for your britches. ;)
As Christians, we need to speak with grace, love, and wisdom. "Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers."
~Ephesians 4:29
What you say needs to build others up; not tear them down because you believe differently. If you feel they are wrong, tell them in love and pray for them that God would open their eyes.
From a carnal standpoint:
Basically you are being "dead-right". That's probably the best way to get people to stop listening to you! You may be right, but making everyone feel stupid because they don't have what you have in your "noggin", will most certainly discontinue their interest in your opinion.

If you noticed, I didn't say anything about my belief on this particular topic. I just popped in to let you know that people are watching you and it's best for you take heed. Don't take the foolish route. Do what's right.

Matthew 7:6: "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

Thank you for showing the true meaning of this verse. I will no longer be posting in this discussion, as I see no fruit in a disccussion with dishonest spiritual midgets.

Thank you for the warm email of Christian love and edification.

Do you believe we have any absolute Truth? I do. And when one states something that is contrary to Scripture, MOCKS GOD, shows and absolute ignorance of his HOLY character, I will post what I believe the Bible says. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but Jesus wasn;t alsos the soft guy preaching "love and prayer". As for me, I love my brothers and sisters in Christ enough to tell them the truth, and will continute to stand up agains balsphemous doctrines of devils that mock my Holy and just God.

As for the "cowboy language" comment, and the crass statement that followed, that was very crass, ineffective, innapropriate, and unattractive.

I don't appreciate you saying that about my sister. It was not crass, inappropriate… or anything else you said.

That's completely off the handle to say something like that to a woman and you owe Bethany an apology. Period.

About mocking God?

"Poor God, the devil is getting him! Ouch, let's root for God. My poor God is up there wringing His hands, evil has evolved from out of nowhere! It has taken God by surprise! He acidentally created the serpent, He created the devil but…uh…the was I mistake. And uh…umm…When God says: "I make peace and CREAT EVIL I the Lord do all these things", God must be umm missing his teleprompter?" - C4C

I believe the word is mocking right there.
For its orignal place, look here at the 17th post on that page. http://www.memverse.com/forums/forums/theology-discussions/topics/did-god-make-evil?page=3

C4C, I don't really care anymore if you are right or not if you are going to resort to such comments about fellow believers in Christ. You are being very inappropriate in your language toward those who are trying to add to this discussion. Calling people dishonest spiritual midgets, crass, inappropriate, unproductive, and unattractive when they are only trying to help is doing exactly what you accused them of doing! You especially owe an apology to Bethany–no man should ever speak to a woman like that, especially when she was merely trying to show you that you may be getting a little too heated. I am entirely disappointed with your poor debating skills and your derogatory language toward fellow Christians.

If I must just chime in here… It's very easy to look at the Bible and see very plainly what we've always known to be true, and be really irked when someone else seems something else. I've been there too. What we have to realize is that we really do come with presuppositions and I don't think that's a bad thing; we just need to know what presuppositions we have and try to see if we can understand where other people may be coming from.

This issue is very thorny and I honestly don't know how it can be super straight forward. I can think of a few theologians I respect who take different positions (e.g. RC Sproul and John MacArthur – of course there are others).

Let's please try to be respectful of other views. I think most people are more likely to take them time to listen to an argument they may disagree with from the very first presupposition if you don't offend them – and a few might even change their position.

And beyond that, "how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!" (Psalm 133:1) And we are brothers and sisters.

Thanks, Alex; I'll be sure to remember that when I'm debating with others. I just had to call C4C out on some things there… I hope we can resolve this with him soon… :)

C4C, We may not be spiritual giants. Of course, I am not a learned person but a learner. I am not perfect yet. Its God who perfects me.
When I posted the verse, its not because I do not support the message you were conveying about babies' innocence but I just wanted to say there's another verse speaking about children and that I honestly thought it would help clarify. Sorry I was not clear in the comment I posted.
I never expected you would want to stop the conversation but instead if I am wrong would tell me how it is a wrong context as we believe that every letter in the Bible is the Inspiration of God and it is HIS Word that has the supreme authority and not man.

Had you checked the link I posted in my previous comment you would have noticed that Charles Spurgeon speaks about Infant Salvation and that it supports what you have said.
But I certainly do not understand why this verse it not taken into consideration. If any one can clarify, I do appreciate.

Let's just look at some of the things that have been said towards me in this thread, and I will post what I said to contrast:

"You are being very inappropriate in your language"

"C4C, I cannot believe how incredibly poor your debating skills are"

"Sure, please, maybe you could enlighten us with more of your wonderful, always fully biblically sound views on issues. Then we can give our opinions, and you can tell us how blasphemous we are because we don't agree with us. :D"

"Oh, and if everyone does stop talking to you, it won't be because we don't know how to answer you; it will be because we are disgusted at your lack of Christian love."

"It would seem that your arguments aren't good enough to stand by themselves, because you have to continually resort to unChristlike, disparaging comments toward your fellow brothers and sisters in Christ."

"you're being divisive."

Here are just a few examples of what has been said to me in this thread. Not only are these crystal clear examples of ad hominem attacks, (attacking my character because you can't Biblically challenge my argument), these are all statements that are direct attacks on me, my character, my motives, and even flat out MOCKING me, and accusing my of a lack of Christian love! It's strange my position wasn't challenged, just my character. That's the ad hominem you're committing.

As for me, I have not made any personal attacks of that category. I must also note then when I am using all CAPS, it is usually to show emphasis, (eg. italics), but as you all know, there are also appropriate times to stand up for what's right in all caps. However, It seems there is something you all have against capital letters, so I apologize if I broke a rule or something. If I did, it was in ignorance.

Instead of attacking your character, (I don't believe I have attacking anyone's character as of yet on this form), I have in love showed your the errors in your arguments. Some very blasphemous views have been presented as fact in this discussion. Instead of mocking you for believing that God would send an innocent baby, aborted child, or mentally incapable person to hell, having that baby stand before the great white throne judgment and even though that baby has not yet had the chance to act out on his sin nature God will damn that baby to hell if it's the unelect is very blasphemous and shows a complete ignorance of the character of my JUST, RIGHTEOUS and HOLY God. I showed Scripture to prove my point, you attacked my character to prove yours. I guess I could say a am "ashamed", or say how "inappropriate" or "unChristlike" that is, but I'll leave it to you guys to make statements like that.

For simply pointing out the error in your arguments, and the dishonesty in some of your statements, I have been called names like "unChristlike" for the first time in my life. I, on the other hand, have not made any personal attacks, but have received a plethora of them on many levels. One person who has been following along with this discussion commented that I should copy and past your comments and post them back to you. However, I wouldn't dream of treating my brothers and sisters in Christ in the manner you have in these forums

I know it's tempting to attack my character with belittling statements, mock me and resort to name calling, but that only takes the focus off of what we're discussing here. I look forward to continuing this discussion with you all, and I trust that you will refrain from that.

Which verse in particular? I didn't see any brought up that said that God would damn and innocent baby, the mentally incapable, or aborted children to hell, although I posted several verses. Thanks!

@RedeemedByChrist:

That post was not to be taken in the way I believe you understand it–I apologize for not being clear on this. Sometimes, it helps to put things in perspective. (Not a straw man, but just following someone's logic). In this case, I was exposing a false and clearly blasphemous view–one that puts man above God that was stated as absolute truth, although it is heresy and contrary to Scripture. I apologize for my use of sarcasm, however, and will try not to resort to communicating how others are on this forum.

@ Jordan Strang:

In light of 1st Timothy 2:12, I never would've guessed that post was from a girl, please accept my apologies. Regardless, Instead of saying anything relevant to the conversation, she posted a direct attack on me, and also committed an ad hominem fallacy. I responded by clearly stating that what was said was appropriate and crass, but refrained from all personal attacks.

What about calling them 'dishonest spiritual midgets'? That sounds pretty ad hominem to me…

I would agree that everyone, from conception, has a sinful nature, as in the propensity we have in our unregenerated state (unbelievers) to sin continually. However, unless I am misunderstanding you (which I very well may be), you seem to be saying that we will all be judged for Adam's sin in disobeying God in the garden of Eden. I believe that Adam's sin brought the carnal, sinful nature to every human (Ro 5); however, that doesn't mean that Adam's actual sin is imputed to our account! It simply means that we now inherit this propensity to sin and inability to live righteous lives on our own, without being quickened by God in our new birth (Eph 2, Col 2:13).
It would follow that babies are conceived with a sinful nature, yet they have no actual sin imputed to their account until they put it there! A baby, facing God's just judgement, will not be condemned and cast into hell having done no sin themselves, simply because Adam sinned. Adam's sin indirectly causes people to be cast into hell, since it is because his sin that we are conceived with a sinful nature that causes us to sin, but it is only for our own sin that we shall be judged and condemned, guilty.
Guilty of what? 1 John 3:4 defines sin as breaking the law: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."1 John 5:17 says that "all unrighteousness is sin", and unrighteousness is "a violation of the divine law" (Websters). Romans 13:9-10 defines the law: "For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
Breaking any of those commandments is sin. Jesus called us to an even higher calling in Matthew 5-7, for example saying that hating a brother without cause is equal to murder in judgment (see also 1 John 3:15), and that someone who "looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart".
I don't believe a baby still in the womb is capable of sinning. Neither is a newborn. When does a child first begin to sin? I'm not sure. Exact time when we are cognizantly sinning and accountable to God for either denying or accepting his gift of grace? I'm not sure. Perhaps it varies, perhaps not. I doubt that a seriously mentally-impaired person would ever reach that point. But I believe that a baby is not guilty of sin and thus cannot be condemned to hell by our just and holy God.
Thanks for reading!

Thanks for some Good old fashion truths of the Word, Ranch4Christ!

I would say that this post is getting way off topic. I do not want to take sides in this matter of ad hominem (for I believe both have been in the wrong at different points of this conversation.)

I HEREBY PROPOSE THAT THIS THREAD IS ENDED AS OF 6 P.M. EST, TO BE RESUMED IN A DIFFERENT THREAD WITH NO MENTION OF THE PREVIOUS THREAD OR OF PHRASES BROUGHT UP IN DIVISIVE COMMENTS.

What do you all say?

I think we should all just forgive each other. This whole thread is becoming a six-way mess. Let's return to the Word and calmly discuss its doctrine. :)

@InSoloChristo:

Let's be honest here. If I made disparraging comments, and then ended the post by saying "I'm not taking taking sides", would that make it right? If I wasn't taking sides, yet still judged someone rudely, made crass and innapropriate statements, would that make it right? Also, we're ignoring the verse I brought up in 1st Timothy…which is VERY relevent.

What she actually did, was accuse me personally of tearing others down, among other comments I'm not even going to repeat. If that's "gentle", I'd hate to see stern!

1 Corin 7:14

Thanks for the clarification.

@C4C: I'm not the one who need to be apologized to. I appreciate and accept them, but you still need to apologize to Bethany. It was wrong to say that to a sister in Christ and you still need to apologize for your remarks, to her.

@jimmy: I'm all with you on that one… It's just that he made an affront on my sister and I want things cleared up…