Extrabiblical "Religious" Holidays

Started by Matthew Minica
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Sarah B.

I'm going to let this conversation get a good start well I work on my essay on the subject of Christmas and why NOT to celebrate it!

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biblebee

I'm going to let this conversation get a good start well I work on my essay on the subject of Christmas and why NOT to celebrate it!

Ummm….same here! :)

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In It Not Of It

I dont have a problem with celebrating the birth of Jesus :D

it originated when Jesus was born.

I DO have a problem with celebrating appeasing evil spirits however.

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Eunice Sophia

It is well termed ‘extra biblical’ because they are not biblical. Deut 5:32 – “Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.”

In fact, they are festivals which were never observed by apostles nor mentioned in the Scripture.

It was 300 years after Christ when the Roman church began keeping Christmas.

God very clearly mentioned to Israelites how they had to keep the set feasts of the LORD: Passover, Unleavened bread, First fruits, Pentecost, Trumpets, Atonement and Tabernacles.
Leviticus 23:4 – “These are the feasts of the LORD, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.”

But He never said anything like that to the Children of New Testament. Instead, He instituted ‘The Lord’s Supper’ on the night of His cruel betrayal - “This Do in Remembrance of Me”. The event of the Lord’s death is the greatest event in the history of the universe; the event to which an eternal past looked forward, and to which an eternal future shall look backward.

Comments on Christmas by Charles H. Spurgeon

"We have no superstitious regard for times and seasons. Certainly we do not believe in the present ecclesiastical arrangement called Christmas. First because we do not believe in any mass at all, but abhor it, whether it be sung in Latin or in English: Secondly, because we find no scriptural warrant whatever for observing any day as the birthday of the Savior; and consequently, its observance is a superstition, because not of divine authority. Superstition has fixed most positively the day of our Savior's birth, although there in no possibility of discovering when it occurred. It was not till the middle of the third century that any part of the Church celebrated the birth of our Lord; and it was not till long after the western Church had set the example, that the eastern adopted it. Because the day in not known. Probably the fact is that the "holy" days were arranged to fit in with the heathen festivals. We venture to assert that if there be any day in the year of which we may be pretty sure that it was not the day on which our Savior was born it is the 25th of December. Regarding not the day, let us give God thanks for the gift of His dear Son. ~C. H. Spurgeon Dec. 24, 1871 (Spurgeon, Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit, p. 697)
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"Those who follow the custom of observing Christmas, follow not the Bible, but pagan ceremonies". ~ C. H. Spurgeon

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2 Corinthians 5:17

I don't participate in the TD forums that much, but one thing I want to say on this topic is…I give a definite NO - Christians should NOT celebrate Halloween. It is a day dedicated to the devil and the works of the devil, and Christians should have no part in it.

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Bethany Meckle

Yep! Actually, we celebrate Reformation Day instead… as I'm sure a lot of you do. We do give out candy, but we use it as sort of a witnessing time as well, handing out tracts with the candy.

Christmas… I dunno. We celebrate it, of course, and I think it's a great time to remember Christ's birth…. but then again, the Covenanters in Scotland (There were plenty of others I'm sure, too) didn't celebrate it because they didn't want to lift one day up above another.

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biblebee

I'm going to post my thoughts in just a few minutes. But first, I do not think that Christians should celebrate Halloween!

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biblebee

So here are my thoughts. While studying this I came across a lot of tings I did not know and a lot of things that were quite shocking to me. Please understand that I do not condemn anybody who does celebrate Christmas. I just personally don't celebrate it. Though I do not think that it should be celebrated I do not condemn anybody or does.

Christmas

1. When was Jesus born
The Bible never tells us when Christ was born…we are just told that he was born of a virgin (Mary) and was under his parents authority until the age of 30 when he then started his 3 year ministry. The date was determined by Dionysius Exiguus, a Scythian monk. His calculation went as follows:
–In the Roman, pre-Christian era, years were counted from the founding of Rome. Thus 1 AUC signifies the year Rome was founded, 5 AUC signifies the 5th year of Rome’s reign, etc…
–Dionysius received a tradition that the Roman emperor Augustus reigned 43 years, and was followed by the emperor Tiberius.
–Luke 3:1, 23 indicates that when Jesus turned 30 years old, it was the 15th year of Tibeius reign.
–If Jesus was 30 years old in Tiberius’ reign, then he lived 15 years under Augustus (placying Jesus birth in Augustus’ 28th year of reign).
–Augustus took power in 757 AUC. Therefore Dionysius put Jesus’ birth in 754 AUC.
But, there is a problem with his calculations. Luke 1:5 places Jesus’ birth in the days of Herod, and Herod died in 750 AUC…four years before the year in which Dionysius places Jesus birth. Also, even with all his calculations he did not figure out what exact day Christ was actually born.
There has been much disagreement about what day Christ was born. Some people said March 28, while others said November 18, and still others said September 11.

2. It’s origins
It was started by the Romans who proclaimed December 17-25 the week of Saturnalia. This week was a week long period of lawlessness. All the Roman courts were closed and the law dictated that no one could be punished during that time no matter what he did. The festival began when Roman authorities chose “an enemy of the Roman people” to represent the “Lord of Misrule.” Each Roman community selected a victim whom they forced to indulge in food and other physical pleasures throughout the week. At the festival’s conclusion, December 25th, Roman authorities believed they were destroying the forces of darkness by brutally murdering this innocent man or woman. The festival included things such as murder, stealing, sexual things, human sacrifice, intoxication and the like.
In the 4th century AD Christians decided to import this festival into Christianity. They hoped to convert many of the pagans to Christianity by doing this. They told them they could still celebrate Saturnalia as Christians. The only problem was that the celebration didn’t change. People who claimed to be Christians still celebrated it in the same way. So to fix that Christians set the last day of the festival (December 25th) as the day of Christ’s birth. One person states “the early Christians who first observed the Nativity on December 25 did not do so thinking that Christ was born in that Month, but because the Heathens’ Saturnalia was at that time kept in Rome, and they were willing to have those Pagan Holidays metamorphosed into Christian ones.”
Because of it’s pagan origins Christmas was banned by the Puritans. And from 1659 to 1682 it was banned in Massachusetts.
In 1466 some of the horrible customs of the festival Saturnalia were revived by Pope Paul II…which included horrible treatment of the Jews.

3. The origins of Christmas traditions
–The Christmas Tree
Pagans had long worshipped trees in the forest or brought them into their houses, decorated them and then worshipped them. So Christians adopted this but in a Christian way…by just putting them in their houses and decorating them…not worshipping them.
–Giving Gifts
In pre-Christian Rome, the emperors compelled their most despised citizens to bring gifts and offerings during Saturnalia. Later this ritual expanded to include gift-giving among everybody. The Catholic Church changed it to supposed gift-giving of Saint Nicholas (Santa Claus).
–Santa Claus
Saint Nicholas was a bishop in the Catholic church. He was born in 270 AD and died on December 6th 345 AD. The Germans and Celts had their chief god Woden. He had a long white beard and would mount his horse and ride through the heavens one night in Autumn. Well, the Catholic pope took that and changed him to Saint Nicholas and said that Saint Nicholas gave gifts on December 25th.
Many books and poems were written about Saint Nicholas in which his name was changed to Santa Claus (his Dutch name). Then in 186 Thomas Nast almost completed the modern picture of Santa Claus. Before Nast, he had been pictured as everything from a stern looking bishop to a gnome-like figure in a frock. Nast drew him as the plump, jolly man with a big white beard who came down the chimney and put gifts in stockings. Nast also gave Santa a home at the North Pole, his workshop filled with elves, and his list of good and bad children of the world…along with his reindeer. All that he was missing now was his red outfit.
In 1931, the Coca Cola Corporation contracted the Swedish commercial artist Haddon Sundblom to create a coke-drinking Santa. The corporation insisted that Santa’s fur-trimmed suit be bright, Coca Cola red. So Sundblom drew Santa Claus after Nash’s picture and put him into a red suit. And Santa Claus was born – a blend of Christian crusader, pagan god, and commercial idol.

4. What is Christmas today?
Christmas today is just another holiday to many people. Though some claiming-Christians celebrate it as Christ’s birth most people do not. It is just another holiday in which to have yummy food and get gifts. This holiday is claimed to be the day that Christ was born but it is not celebrated as that…it is just another holiday.

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Seth W.

Question; Does your family traditionally not celebrate Christmas, or have you recently come to the conclusion that you personally do not see it as advantageous?

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biblebee

When my parents first got married they celebrated christmas but then they stopped celebrating it. I recently studied it and have also come to the above conclusion. Btw great to have you on here! I haven't talked to you in a long time!

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Seth W.

Yes, I recently got back on memverse after being away far too long. It's nice to be back.:) Okay, question #2; Would you theoretically have any problem with celebrating Christmas on a different day? For instance, if Christmas was traditionally celebrated on, say, March 13, removing the historical connotations without diminishing the value of the message, would you celebrate it?

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biblebee

No…because we don't know when Christ was born and it would still be just anothet holiday to most people. Which is partly why I don't like Easter.

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biblebee

So Sam, Ian and I had a discussion about this over on SC#7 and I decided to post it here so y'all could read it without having to search for it ;-) This might be kinda hard to follow though…sorry about that.

Sam:
There may be a lot of darkness in the holiday these days, with over-commercialization and the "true meaning of Christmas" being skewed left and right, but I don't believe He should be eliminated from Christmas. Where there is greatest darkness, the light shines all the brighter. If people look for the TRUE meaning of Christmas, not something stereotypical or commercialized, and look to His face, they will find true satisfaction. They will find the true meaning of Christmas.

Carissa:
Yeah…but people aren't doing that! To them it is just another holiday in which to get gifts and eat lots of good food. Did you read my post on the td?

Ian:

There may be a lot of darkness in the holiday these days, with over-commercialization and the "true meaning of Christmas" being skewed left and right, but I don't believe He should be eliminated from Christmas. Where there is greatest darkness, the light shines all the brighter. If people look for the TRUE meaning of Christmas, not something stereotypical or commercialized, and look to His face, they will find true satisfaction. They will find the true meaning of Christmas.

Ditto!

Ian:
True, but why take Christ out of Christmas? It's kinda like taking away another opportunity to evangelize to someone. (I hope that makes sense.)

Carissa:
Are you going out on christmas day to evangelize and tell people the true meaning of christmas?

Sam:
That's an over-generalization. For those who look beyond all that, and looking for true fulfillment, God will use this time to bring them to Himself. I was reading Ecclesiastes Chapters 1 and 2 earlier, and Solomon was talking about how empty pleasure is, without God. Why do you think Hollywood stars are often known for their crazy lifestyles of partying and drinking? They believe that pleasure will give them satisfaction. But it doesn't. And, eventually, they realize this, and go to other religions, or give away lots of money and become philanthropists, all to satisfy the emptiness in their souls. But nothing can. Except for Christ.

Carissa:
Why is it an over generalization?

Ian:
Well no, I'm not that type of person, but I think I know a couple people who do that. I did have one chance a few years ago to evangelize to someone about the birth of Christ, but I didn't take it and now I wish I had.

Sam:

Are you going out on christmas day to evangelize amd tell people the true meaming of christmas?

Are you?

I have to say, no, I don't believe we are. But, I can say that there are many churches and organizations in or area that do go out, and evangelize, and help people, all the while pointing them to Christ. And those people have my prayers. :)

Sam:
Your over-generalization was that all people use Christmas as an excuse to buy things and eat good food. Many people use it for this reason, but saying that all people do that is like saying all homeschoolers hate video games.

Carissa:
Well then should I say that I am not that type of person? Because I really am not. It doesn't matter what type of person you are we live in a dying world and we should evangelize. :)
Am I coming across harsh?

Carissa:
I said most people…not all…

Carissa:
No. But I do not celebrate Christmas so I don't see that I have to go out on christmas and do that. And that's the whole orobkem…that's how christmas started. The catholics wanted to evangelize the world so they took a pagan holiday and put Christ into it. Now most people have taken Christ almost completely out of it and you're saying that we should keep him in to evangelize.

Sam:
What I'm saying is that the original focus of Christmas was Christ, and still is to many people. Why is it wrong to celebrate the birth of our Saviour, despite it originating from a pagan holiday? Isn't that how we have drums? They were originally created for shamanistic ceremonies. Are they then bad?

Ian:
What's the use of bringing people to Christ if we leave Christ out of it? I kinda see what you're saying, but if we want to evangelize we can't take Christ out of everything that is remotely related to a pagan holiday.

Carissa:
Christ was never the oirginal focus of christmas.

Carissa:
There is no use bringing people to Christ if we leave Christ out of it. But why use a pagan holiday to bring people to Christ? We are to be in this world not of this world. And just FTR Christmas is not remotely related to a pagan holiday. Even in the 19th century on Christmas day Jews were being persecuted. It is a pagan religion from the very beginning and still is…because most people don't celebrate Christmas because of Christ…it's just another holiday. So why would Christ want to be associated with something such as Christmas?

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Sir Walter (Jimmy)

Hi, all! Here are my thoughts on the issue (I will expand on them as you disagree or agree with them).

I would like to say first of all that the following will probably not change your minds. It is hard to have a belief about something and overnight have it changed. I have been changed occasionally by Memverse, but I generally still hold my views even after I read opposing arguments (I ALWAYS, though, come away with a better and more fair understanding of the other side of the coin). I am just saying that I know I am probably not going to convert you and I know you will disagree on some points. I am just trying to show a different perspective that you guys might find helpful in this discussion. :)

The chief objection to Christmas is that it was a pagan holiday hundreds of years ago.

Fundamentally, to say that Christmas is bad because of its origins is to commit what is called the genetic fallacy. What that means is that the questionable beginnings of an idea or practice have no impact on whether it is good or bad today. To say that it does is to commit a logical error, for what really matters for present action is present practice. Do those who object to Christmas on this point mean to say that we cannot cover our mouth when we yawn or say "bless you!" when we sneeze (begun with non-biblical superstition)? I DO think, though, that with theological issues that does become somewhat of a problem - a problem I would like to address. Still, before I move on, to base your entire objection on the fact that it was based in paganism hundreds of years ago should have no impact on its VERY different counterpart today. I am not saying that you all base it solely in that, but that some do. Anyway, does it still matter that it was founded in paganism? You might disagree, but this almost reminds me of the New Testament exhortation regarding meat sacrificed to idols. We as Christians can eat what was meant for pagan rituals, but we must be careful not to cause our brother to sin.

Do we sin by practicing Christmas? In a large sense (if we don't get too caught up in the commercial part of it) the answer is no. We do not sin at all. No rebellion is committed. Might it cause our brethren to sin or to have their faith weakened. Again, if they commit the genetic fallacy and think, "the Christians celebrate a holiday that was pagan five hundred years ago. I must not and cannot be with these hypocrites," then you should probably be careful. I think this rarely, if ever, happens. The only non-Christians who really look at the idea of paganism do so for the purpose of destroying Christianity and causing us to feel guilt (at least, that has been my perception). Again, do not cause your brethren to sin if you celebrate Christmas. If you get caught up in the commercial aspect, then you will more easily cause others to view you as hypocrites.

If it is true that Christmas should not be celebrated because of pagan connection, what about other holidays? Connections with evil abound in virtually every holiday. "Easter" comes from the word "Ishtar," an Ancient goddess and takes place during a fertility festival. Does this mean we shouldn't celebrate it? Reformation Day celebrates a man who hated Jews and wanted them all to perish (yes, that would be Luther himself). Think of virtually any holiday (save perhaps the Passover), and there are bad connections.

WAIT!!!

You might thinking to yourself about the question of God's desires in all this. It might not hurt us to celebrate God's birth, but would God want us to celebrate His Son's birth, As Carrissa said, on the wrong day? And would he want us associated with pagan holidays?

The answer to the first question is that it really does not matter. For many people (both today and in times past), the winter represents a time with very little work. For farmers, the harvest has come in. For hunters, much game has already been killed. People looked and still look to winter as a time when they can actually afford to officially worship Christ's birth (this is one of the reasons Constantine chose this time, by the way). This in no way means that Christmas should be celebrated. I am ultimately saying that it does not matter at all to God when we celebrate it. We chose a time that many could actually take to truly worship without thoughts of work. I think God smiles when we take the time to worship Him and thank Him at any time and in any capacity.

What about that second question? This, I think (and correct me if I am wrong) is where the real debate lies. I hope you have not disagreed so far regarding that we CAN indeed celebrate Christmas despite its pagan origins. The deep question lies in whether God likes/prefers to be associated. Would it not be wiser to celebrate at a different time? Of course, God, I believe, wants us to celebrate all year round. This would necessitate that we do so on the 25th of December, along with other days. Does the pagan origin of the 25th mean that we can never celebrate the birth of our Lord on that day? The answer, I think, should be obvious. Does God like it that we tend to ONLY do it on December? I would say no. Does God dislike it for the reason that hundreds of years ago it was a pagan holiday? Here is where the disagreement lies, and I would say He does not care.

I would argue that God did not like it when Constantine and those immediately after wedded pagan beliefs and Christian beliefs into Christianity. I would argue that God did not like it when coca-cola conspired to make Santa Claus. I would also argue, though, that He doesn't care that we celebrate what used to be an ancient pagan holiday, as long as we do it solely for him and do not buy into the commercialism of the world.

Wait!!!

How then should Christmas be celebrated, if it is officially celebrated? Can we use any old traditions, or must we only pray or read the Bible? Again, disagreement will arise here. I PERSONALLY see nothing wrong with the moderate giving of gifts on Christmas, or of using Christmas trees. I take them, primarily the first, though, to be examples of food offered to idols. We can eat of them in Christian liberty, yet we must make sure not to make our brethren stumble. This is easy to avoid with a Christmas tree and with Christmas lights, which are simply pleasing to the eye and don't, I think, give God any reason to despise them. But it would certainly be hard with the giving of gifts. If anyone feels unsure in this area of how to actually celebrate Christmas, I would lean toward having Christmas decorations (Lights, trees, etc.) but avoiding presents (which are not pleasing to the eye like decorations and, more than anything, take the mind off of the real gift of Christmas). Presents, if anything, are the cause for the secularization of Christmas today. Remove them and their associations, and largely a form of worship emerges that is far less likely to sadden the Lord.

These are my thoughts. Feel free to disagree. I will respond as I am able. :)

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Sarah B.

I like the first point you made! That is how I feel about these discussions as well. I hope that I am able to maintain a humble spirit even though I am very stuck in my ways. It is good to be firm about what you believe, but it is also good to “test the spirits” (1 John 4:1), with prayer being open to a change of heart if that is what God wants of you.

You said (if I am aloud to quote you): “He [God]doesn't care that we celebrate what used to be an ancient pagan holiday, as long as we do it solely for him and do not buy into the commercialism of the world.” I think he dose care how we worship him! God saw it as imperative that the Children of Israel NOT mix with sin in God’s eyes in ANY way! He told them to wipe out the heathen nations from the land, or else! (Joshua 23:3-13)
When I think about how people try to worship God with Christmas it reminds me of when the priest offered up profane fire in Leviticus 10:1-3 it was not pleasing to God because it was not what He required. It was strange. So if we try to worship God with something that was offered to ideals before… I don’t think that is pleasing to him either. I don’t think it pleases God when we worship him in our own way making things up as we go and pulling from pagan religions of year ago (I really don’t care how old they are).

You mentioned commercial part of Christmas. I don’t know why people make such a big deal about the “commercial part” of Christmas (maybe because I don’t very well know what that means)… but when I think about the present giving around Christmas time I think about how materialistic it is! It’s all about getting stuff! Think about it! What is the most popular question around Christmas? “What did you get?”

I don’t think we should celebrate Easter either for the very reasons we shouldn’t celebrate Christmas. You probably wonder, “What do we celebrate then?” Well, God gave (commanded) the Israelites holidays to celebrate and told them to remember! Remembering is the reason we celebrate!

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Sir Walter (Jimmy)

  1. Thank you for your response! I appreciate the thought you put into each of your arguments. :) I will try to number my responses to make them easier to reference. :)

  2. On your first point, you mentioned that God DOES care how we worship. That is precisely my point. I believe that we should worship in a pure way, taking what is sinful tempting about Christmas and instead focusing purely on God. I just don't see decorating a tree as representative of strange fire. I see commercialism and materialism as corrupting, but decoration and celebration as not corrupting. I suppose I am asking, how do reconcile the passage regarding meat sacrificed to idols? At least to me, it seems more directly related to the discussion we are having. What are your thoughts?

  3. Again, I agree with you about commercialism! Just because that is what the world thinks it is, though, does not mean that is what it is. A majority opinion does not mean truth. Christmas is more than that, and we should know it. Our job is to remove what the world has put into it that actually leads us astray and maintain proper worship that glorifies God. This can be done even with Christmas trees and nativity sets.

  4. Are you saying that we ought to practice Jewish holidays? How would you reconcile this with the whole old covenant/ new covenant idea?

  5. Is it your opinion that if a practice or celebration is not found in the Bible, it should not be done? It seems that that is what you are saying, and please correct me if I am wrong about that. :)

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Sarah B.

  1. Thank you for numbering your arguments. It is much easer for me that way! :)

  2. I’m going to take a little more time to pray about this one. :) Can you support your points with more scripture? Just wondering.

  3. I don’t think you can clear the ties of the (carven image) nativity sets, and the (pagan related) Christmas tree by just thinking about them as pleasing to the Lord! Well, you can sin out of ignorance but it is still considered sin! God’s law doesn’t change and you will be judged according to it whether you call what you do sin or not.

  4. When we stopped celebrating those holidays my parents decided to replace them with holidays God instructed (you can’t go wrong following God’s instructions). However they were only commanded for the Jews, so we don’t have to celebrate them. But I do think that (according to God’s word) the Jews should continue celebrating those holidays. (Exodus 12:14, note the word “everlasting”).

  5. No. My family still celebrates 4th of July, and Thanksgiving because (as far as we can tell) they have nothing to do with heathen worship. Also for extended families (who celebrate Christmas) sake we try to celebrate these two holidays with them.

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Andrew

I never have been known for presenting my material in a very non-confusing manner, but I wanted to responde to a few points.

In reponse to Lady Elusive.
3 I don’t think you can clear the ties of the (carven image) nativity sets, and the (pagan related) Christmas tree by just thinking about them as pleasing to the Lord! No, not clear the ties, but is this not what is so commonly seen? For example: the type of pillars used in Greek and Roman temples is the same type as we have today in many memorials, important public buildings, and above all churches. The wheel was probably invented in 3965 B.C. as Cain was wandering across the earth hiding. My point is that someone has to get to it first. Some things are invented by Christians, and therefore looked on favorably.

4 *When we stopped celebrating those holidays my parents decided to replace them with holidays God instructed	(you can’t go wrong following God’s instructions). However they were only commanded for the Jews, so we don’t have to celebrate them. But I do think that (according to God’s word) the Jews should continue celebrating those 	holidays.* I believe some of the days should not be celebrated, the feast of Purim, February 13th I believe, was for	remembering how God had saved them from Haman. Also, many of the holidays, required sacrificing animals, at the 	temple to rid one's self of sins. Which is impossible(the temple being destroyed in A.D. 70) and unnecessary(Jesus having already come, to be the ultimate sacrifice). Do you believe the Jews are sinning if they do not keep the Days? Why is it so much more difficult for a Jew to obey God than a gentile? Did the death of Jesus affect whether they should keep the holidays? 

In response to Carissa.
No…because we don't know when Christ was born and it would still be just another holiday to most people. So you decide not to have a time set aside, because you don't know what day it was? This seems somewhat hard. Try thinking of it this way.Our family adopted an orphan(just an example). We didn't know when his birthday was,(he was only three at the time) and so we decided to celebrate it on Sept. 18, so he could understand the importance of maturing and becoming a man at a younger age. So We don't know the age of the earth, but from some careful work by J. Usher, the best date settled upon put us recording upon this date. Should we not keep a calendar because we don't know just how many years old the earth is, let alone how many years it is from Jesus' birth,(giving us 2013)? Would it not make sense to talk to the contemporary theologians, and have a 'council' to choose the most logical date, to give us a time to remember his birth?

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Sarah B.

  1. My point with the strange fire example is that God has never been pleased when man comes to Him in his own way of worship. Making up ways of worshiping God by mashing paganism and Christianity. You can’t put God into something He was never in to begin with.
    Now that verse about the meat is kind of hard to use in this because when using it your saying that someone is a “weaker brother.” It could go either way: Me offended that you persistently celebrate Christmas in my face, or you offended that I don’t and am making you feel guilty about it.
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Sarah B.

  1. Your saying that the fact that the nativity sets are not seen as “idols” they are okay since nobody bows down to them? God said to “make no craven image of anything” not even of Him. That is one of those things like “meat offered to idols”. It is an offense to me… but me pointing it out as sin could be an offense to you. You know what I mean?

  2. It is not just harder (and I have never looked at celebrating as harder then not celebrating), it is what the Lord wants of the Jews. It is obedience to God! Have you ever celebrated Passover? If you did you would see how clearly it points to Jesus… It is such a clear reminder that it is hard not to be in awe of Gods wonderful plan of salvation when celebrating that holiday. No, I don’t believe that Jews should still sacrifice animals, that is a system that was done way with when the real Passover Lamb came. We do not celebrate Purim or Chanukah just because they where not commanded by God.

I didn’t quite understand what you where trying to get at when you said this: “I believe some of the days should not be celebrated, the feast of Purim, February 13th I believe, was for remembering how God had saved them from Haman

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Sir Walter (Jimmy)

I will try to respond to you in depth a little later. I would like to say , though, that offense is not what the meat offered to idols passage is talking about. It is not referring to offending someone. If two people hold different views, especially religious ones, offense and uncomfort will of course be present. The passage is talking about sin. Can your not celebrating Christmas cause anyone to sin or leave the faith? I would say that that is virtually impossible. If I gave gifts all the time and ignored the rest of Christmas, would that potentially cause my brother to grow weak in the faith? Possibly. That is what I am saying. I am not offended at you for not celebrating it, and I am certainly not going to sin over it. :)

God is not saying that we can't offend (I AM NOT SAYING THAT WE SHOULD NOT BE PEACEMAKERS, THOUGH!). All Christian beliefs can and will probably offend others. God wants us to not cause our brethren to stumble in the faith. That is the meaning behind the idols passage, and I think we should try to focus on that meaning in this discussion of how exactly it applies to Christmas. Would you agree with that analysis?

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Sarah B.

I don't believe there is anything wrong with giving gifts at all. I think it is just as well if you leave Christ out of Christmas because I don't think it is pleasing to Him.

Let me make sure I got this right: We are talking about how my not celebrating Christmas could cause others to stumble, right? So your saying that by making people think about what they are doing they might stop thinking about Christ as part of Christmas making the celebration wrong and worthless? Well, i think they should give up the whole thing and forget about Xmas all together.

Yes, I agree with you in that God is not saying we can't offend. Thank you!

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Eunice Sophia

Lady Elusive, on seeing your comment I remembered a quote. I think y'll don't mind if i made quotes here.

'It is not the parts of the Bible I cannot understand that bother me. It is the parts that I do understand that gives me great trouble' -Mark Twain.

Yes, the truth hurts more than a calculated offence. God's Word CRITICIZES us but it NEVER comforts us with a lie!!

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Sir Walter (Jimmy)

Hmm… I think you might be misunderstanding me here. I am sorry if I have caused any confusion. What I mean is this: I do not think that celebrating the pure form of Christmas can actually cause our brethren (Believers) to stumble unless they commit the genetic fallacy, in which case we ought to let them know that origins do not taint the present. Neither do I think that NOT celebrating Christmas causes anyone to stumble. I believe that if people think about Christmas, they will realize how PRESENT practice (materialism) is not in spirit with true Christmas (which is called Christ-mas for a reason). They can realize that, in some cases, PRESENT practice of Christmas does not often have Christ in it, but in that case they can come to worship God on Christmas with a pure heart. Does that make sense?

If by the last sentence of your second paragraph, you are referring to believers, I would have to disagree with you. We should not, I think, ever cease celebrating the birth of Christ. Still, because of the tainting of the world during the present, Christians should be all the more careful HOW they worship. The problem with the question of strange fire is that Nadab and Abihu knew what they were doing (the passage strongly implies the wickedness of their hearts) and chose to disobey God's explicit old testament instructions. Under the New Covenant and with Christmas, we are not under the law. As Paul says, we can eat the meat offered to idols. This does not mean that we can disobey God's instructions. Instead, he is saying that what was meant for evil God allows Christians to use for good. Christmas might have been begun for evil, but Constantine began a process of bringing that holiday closer to what we know its purpose to be today. We still stumble in buying into the world, but that is only because we have not been using it completely for good. We have half-heartedly done so. God has given us the ability to celebrate his birth on the 25th of December, and we should not fear the influence of evil origins, for we serve a present God. It all comes down to the potential for sin, again. We can use Christmas for good by restoring to it its intended purpose, but if we fail to do so and half-heartedly seek to make it good, other Christians new in the faith will see us as compromising and greedy. Our goal should not be to surrender to a corruption of what can be used for good. We must avoid causing our brother to sin, while at the same time glorying in the birth of God's Son with a pure heart. I think this can be done with Christmas (and Easter, for that matter). I hope that made sense. :)

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Sarah B.

I think I understand what you are getting at… but (as you know) I don't agree. :) As I was reading, some of the things you said popped out at me . I would like to comment on them, if I may.

Quote: We should not, I think, ever cease celebrating the birth of Christ.

Exactly! We should be celebrating Christ birth all year long! I don’t think we should be esteeming one day above another. Romans 14:5: One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind.

Quote: The problem with the question of strange fire is that Nadab and Abihu knew what they were doing (the passage strongly implies the wickedness of their hearts) and chose to disobey God's explicit old testament instructions.

I see what you mean. You are right about that. But what about when they brought the ark of the convent back to Jerusalem? That was out of ignorance, and some died!
2 Samuel 6:6-7: And when they came to Nachon’s threshing floor, Uzzah put out his hand to the ark of God and took hold of it, for the oxen stumbled. Then the anger of the LORD was aroused against Uzzah, and God struck him there for his error; and he died there by the ark of God.

Quote:what was meant for evil God allows Christians to use for good.

What about witchcraft? Can we use that for good too?

Quote: God has given us the ability to celebrate his birth on the 25th of December, and we should not fear the influence of evil origins…

Christmas and Christ birth are two completely different things! Christ was not born on the 25th, even you recognize that.

Quote: We can use Christmas for good by restoring to it its intended purpose

Was it God’s or man’s intended purpose?

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Sarah B.

Thank you! One thing that was always confusing to me what when the King James version used the word "offense" instead of "stumble". You use the KJ, how do you avoid that misunderstanding? :)

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Child of God

@bibleebee If I may ask does your family celebrate Christmas? We don't really do gifts, a big party etc we usually just get together with some family, reading the story of Jesus's birth, etc. Also what do you mean by "Though some claiming-Christians celebrate it as Christ’s birth?"

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Sir Walter (Jimmy)

Good responses, Lady Elusive! I really appreciate the thought you put into each of your posts. :)

I will try to respond to each of your responses to my quotes. :)

  1. What I meant when I said that is that we should celebrate his birth every day of the year, and by that we cannot give up doing so on the 25th of December (which, it seems, you appear to be advocation on the idea that it was once a pagan holiday). In addition, I feel that one can indeed esteem the 25th over other days for Christ's birth. For many, having one special day of celebration helps to really make what is celebrated real for some people. For instance, you probably celebrate your birthday in some way. In many ways, we should celebrate other's birth every day, but a birthday is one special day to truly appreciate them and thank God for them. In the same way, I believe this can be done for Christ. As the verse you said mentioned, though, everyone should be convinced in his mind. This means, I think, that we can neither say one SHOULD celebrate Christmas nor that one SHOULD NOT celebrate it. It means, at least in this area, that one can choose and it is not wrong to participate or not.

  2. Ever since I was little, I have struggled with the question of Uzzah. For a long time, I thought that God perhaps was unjust in striking Him dead. However, I have come to the conclusion that it was indeed just. I do not think it was a sin in ignorance. The Israelites had explicit instruction not to touch the ark (very specific instructions) and to not carry the ark in a cart, but they did. This was, I think, a sin of willful ignorance. They disobeyed strict instruction when they either did know or could have easily discovered.

This case, I think, does not apply to Christmas. We have no mandate to not practice Christmas. Rather, we are commanded that, no matter what we do, to do it to the glory of God. We sin not by worshipping Christ on the 25th. We have no explicit command from the Father. Instead, we have the passage of giving food to idols. Again, to argue for origins for the present speaks of the genetic fallacy (bad origins of a practice cannot be appealed to. Present goodness or badness, however, may).

  1. I can see why you brought that up. This is delicate ground, and I want to tread it lightly. :) I think that witchcraft is, by nature, a sin, and that it is declared by God to be explicitly so. It is like a Christian taking theft and turning it for God. No matter what, it is by definition sin.

Wait!

If we are talking about definitions, then would not having Christmas trees and decorations also, by definition, be sin? The answer is no. God has given us instructions as to what is sin and what is not. Worshipping trees, as you said, is sin. Buying into materialism at the cost of Christ is sin. Decorating a tree and bringing it into your house merely because your father did is not a sin. We need to take each practice as it is in the present and apply that to the Scriptures. Applying old practices to the Scriptures and using that to condemn the present is a logical fallacy (and should not be used). We need to ask what is the sin practiced, and if there is one, we are to eliminate it. God can take practices that are bad and give Christians the ability to use them for His. glory. Witchcraft is, by definition, a sin, but decorating one's house is not (unless one does so to worship beings other than God).

  1. This ties back to my first point. Yes, he was not born on December 25th. By all accounts, He was probably born in April. I don't think, though, that you can seperate Christ with Christmas. Many times, it seems that two different celebrations are going on, but why is it called Christmas? Because of its connection with the birth of Christ. Thousands of years ago, it was not connected, but it now is and, I believe, the two cannot readily be separated (except to remove sin).

  2. I would argue God's. Man began it for evil, and God transformed its purpose for good. Think about it this way. Thousands of years ago, a group begins a holiday. It is a holiday of worshipping evil spirits and idols. Now a strange movement called Christianity arises. It sees this holiday of evil and says, "We can and should make this holiday one that honors God." They then infuse Christian themes into the holiday in order to take away the paganism. This goal is largely unsuccessful, due to leader's unwillingness to completely remove tradition and the people's unwillingness to lose their heritage or their worship. Thus, we now have a pagan element and a Christian element. The pagan element has, in my mind, completely disappeared. Most people neither know nor care about the worship of trees. They cut down trees and give gifts because that was what was always done. At the same time, the Christian element began to continually gain ground. Soon, for most, Christmas became inseparable from Christianity. Now, materialism and the concept of Xmas and Happy Holidays is attempting to eliminate the connection virtually all recognize.

God has, in my view, orchestrated this in order to take the pagan ceremony and transform it to a celebration of His Son's birth. What began as evil God has over time transformed. I believe that now the two cannot be separated (save by the designs of materialists) and we ought to maintain the pure form of Christmas that, I believe, God wants us to maintain.

Again, however, this is entirely up to the conscience of the believer. I want Christ to remain in Christmas because I feel that God has orchestrated events for a pure celebration of His Son's birth. Some may feel that this idea is stretched, and that the pagan elements that remain still taint the holiday in ways that cannot be removed, but I believe that they do not and cause, in no way, rebellion against God.

What do you think? Again, I really appreciate the time you take to think out your points. :)

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Sarah B.

Thank you for your reply! It is clear that you put a lot of time and thought into your posts as well. :) I hope this isn't too confusing to read.

  1. Then why do we pick December 25th as the day to celebrate still? Why not be more accurate and put more distinction between paganism and Christianity by celebrating it when he’s birthday would have really been?

  2. Okay, if you don’t want to accept the illustration of Uzzah as valid then we can forget it, for now. I think that God’s command not to mix with idolatry is explicit instruction enough! But even if I fully convinced you that Christmas is condemned you wouldn’t want to give up your tradition. I don’t really blame you since I feel the same way about things like that sometimes.

  3. But the symbols behind the tree are idolatrous, and your taking that into your house? God says not to even say the names of other gods.

  4. And then we go back to my first point as well. If you want to celebrate Christ’s birth why not separate it all together from X-mas. We are no longer pagans stuck in idolatry and in need of something to replace our worships anyway!

  5. The only holidays in the Bible are clearly pagan or clearly Jewish. I see no rcombination, nor do I see where Jesus taught any such thing as mingling with paganism (once again, I don’t really care how old). The NT says to stay away from anything that has the appearance of evil (1 Thessalonians 5:22). In the First, Second, and Third commandments God condemns the worship of pagan gods. For that reason I don’t think Christ would have encouraged the lukewarm behavior of mingling with idolatry.
    I would like to point out hat MANY people all over the world know that Christmas has pagan ties. If we can’t separate Christ from Christmas and still make Christmas a good thing to do maybe we should consider getting rid of that holiday altogether.
    Christmas is like mixing truth with a lie, and that equals an untruth.

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biblebee

You can call me Carissa or Cari…which you have prefer :)

  1. No, my family does not celebrate Christmas. Does your family celebrate Christmas?

  2. You said Also what do you mean by "Though some claiming-Christians celebrate it as Christ's birth?". I was saying how today most people don't celebrate Christmas as Christ's birth though some claiming-Christians do. What I mean by "Claiming-Christians" is that sad to say a lot of the people living here in America claim to be Christians but sadly they are not. That is why I call them "Claiming-Christians". Hope that makes sense :)

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biblebee

5. I would argue God's. Man began it for evil, and God transformed its purpose for good. The pagan element, has in my mind, completely disappeared.

Ummmm……Christmas was a sinful holiday. Christians (or so-called Christians) came and made it "Christian". But they left many of the pagan things in it. So at this point it has some pagan things and some Christian things. But now very few people celebrate it because it is "Christ's birth". They are just celebrating another holiday in which many of the christmas traditions have to do with the pagan holiday. And some things were made up by large companies such as coca-cola. Very few celebrate it as the birth of Christ. In my eyes it is almost completely pagan except for the few who celebrate it as Christ's birth.

I'm very sorry if I have come across harsh. Please let me know if I did so.

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Seth W.

I've been doing some research on this topic, and was surprised to find so much information confirming what Carissa and Lady Elusive have been saying concerning the pagan origins of Christmas. Thanks to everyone for what you have been writing; it's been very educational and I'm certainly considering Christmas differently. :) I do have another question for you; how do you consider Christmas to be different from the many other pagan influences in our culture? For instance, are you okay with referring to the days of the week as Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, etc., even though they are named after pagan gods?

I agree that many people leave Christ completely our of Christmas, but at least where I have lived Christ's birth has played an undeniable role in the holiday celebrations. Of course that could vary widely depending on geographical location, but I'd like to encourage you that some places still exist where many people celebrate Christmas as a day to remember Christ coming to this world, even though it likely was not on December 25th. :)

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Child of God

Hi Carissa, :) Yes I know what you mean about "Claiming Christians." I was trying to say did you mean to say that all "Christians" that celebrate Christmas aren't really Christians? Just curious… Did you read "God Has a Wonderful Plan for Your Life: The Myth of the Modern Message" by Ray Comfort also?

No, we do not really celebrate Christmas. We read the story of Jesus's birth, spend time with friends/family, have a nice meal. But we don't do the Christmas stockings, gifts, etc. :)

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Sir Walter (Jimmy)

Hi, Lady Elusive! Here are my responses to both you and Carissa. :)

  1. Why do we pick December 25th? Largely out of tradition, which is not a bad thing. I personally think that we should keep it on the 25th in order to someday gain enough support for a true celebration of Christmas that all non-Christian elements are removed. If you feel that is not a strong reason, I am completely fine with celebrating it on another day. I do feel, though, that it can indeed be celebrated on a particular day. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, as you yourself mentioned.

  2. It is important again to know what God means by not mixing with idolatry. What is idolatry? It is setting up another God in place of God and worshipping Him? How does this relate to Christmas? Well, in ancient times, the worship of tree would have easily qualified as idolatry. So would other aspects of Christianity. Again, however, we commit the genetic fallacy (to which argument no one has yet responded) in saying that they still affect present practice. We must look at the PRESENT to determine sin and idolatry. What does that mean? It means that we have to see whether, in having decorations and presents, we are worshipping them as gods today. Yes with presents (thus they should be removed as mixing with idolatry), and no with decorations (which are not used as idols in place of God by anyone and thus are in no way wrong or representative of idolatry).

  3. The symbols behind the tree may used to have been idolatrous, but in the PRESENT, they are merely used as beautiful objects that please the eye. There is nothing wrong with an appreciation of beauty. I can't stress it enough, but the present practice determines sin, not ancient practice.

  4. I think what you are trying to say is celebrate from the season of commercialism and what you believe to be idolatry entirely. In some ways I agree (save the parts regarding decorations). This is a minor point, but I actually feel that Christians have a right to the name Christmas. It does, after all, contain the name of their Savior. Christ should not be separate from Christmas, but the world should be separate from it.

  5. A quick point: just because the Bible mentions it does not mean that it cannot be practiced. God commanded His holidays for specific religious purposes in the Bible, but that does not at all mean that we cannot celebrate on other days as well. God loves it when His people rejoice. As long as their hearts are pure and right towards Him, we can and should rejoice through holidays. :)

Carissa: I agree and it is unfortunate, but that is our modern world trying to take Christ out of Christmas. Just because many people don't worship Christ today in Christmas does not mean that Christ is supposed to be wholly separate. It is sad that many try to remove all mention of religion in the world, but that attempt does not mean truth.

I really do understand what you are getting at here guys. You are sensitive to idolatry and really do want what is best for Christians. I can tell you that I really understand the point you are trying to make. My overall theme here is, we need to be careful to know what is actually sin. Are we worshipping a tree by bringing it into our house. Fro one who has had a Christmas tree, I can say that the answer is no. I feel no inclination to worship the tree, and all my decorations are meant merely to please the eye. No one has viewed me as a hypocrite (I hope), and I have not rebelled against God. I think that one can decorate and celebrate Christmas without sin or mingling, as long as one does not commit idolatry. I think that is is best to remove elements that can actually cause sin (gifts) but if it is not sin in the present and is not used as such, it can be used. Again, though, we must be careful not to cause our brothers to sin. If we feel our conscience pricking us, by all means do not have a Christmas tree. Still, I think Christmas should be celebrated, if not on the 25th, then on another specific day of the year.

What do you all think? :)

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biblebee

Oh, sorry. I was meaning that some people do celebrate Christmas as Christ's birth but just because they do that does not mean they are true Christians.

No, I have never read that books.

Okay :)

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SavedByGrace

I have to say that I am immensely pleased with this discussion. All have presented their sides well, debated in Christian love, and generally used good logical reasoning. I think I can say that this discussion could be considered a classic example of how a debate between Christians is supposed to be carried on. :)

Jimmy, I am relieved that you have saved people like myself so much effort by presenting our side of the debate so well. I only disagree with you on the very small point about Reformation Day in your first comment… but that can certainly wait for some other time. ;) Great job, and thank you! :)

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Sarah B.

@jimmy: Thank you for your post. I (like SavedByGrace) appreciate the patience in your attitude toured this subject of discussion. I’m sorry that my post are not as long as yours, it takes me a long time to find the right words. :)

  1. December 25th was the “Victory of the Sun-God” Festival. When Constantine tried to bring internal peace to the Roman Empire he declared the state religion to be “Christianity.” The Church was full of pagans masked as Christians which had to be pacified. So he took the pagan gods and gave them Christian names. Constantine was not really looking to God at all. I didn’t believe it is right for us to add a special holiday like that just to celebrate Christ… if it where right then we could add anything we wanted to Christianity.

  2. God’s law (from many years ago) still applies to us today. I don’t see how we can only look at the present to determine sin and idolatry. If you found a god that had been the focuses of someone’s worship many years ago would you want to keep that in your house and give it a Christian name and present it to your children (assuming you have children when you grow up). I still think we should keep those things far from us and not even speak of there names!

  3. Evergreen trees have always been a symbol of immortality, fertility, and reproduction. God forbids this in Jeremiah 10:2-4. True these things have lost their original meanings but it is crazy that anyone would want to commemorate Christ with faded symbols of idols! We shouldn’t give glory to anything except the cross {not even the manger} of Christ (Gal. 6:14).

  4. But the world is NOT separate from it at all. In my mind it came from the world and it should go back to the world. Christians should have nothing to do with it!

  5. The apostles never celebrated Christ birth because, although it was significant to them that Christ had been born, he was no longer on earth. They were looking forward to His next coming.

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Isaac

Christmas came from ancient pagan practices. It was "Christianized". Do a search on the origins Christmas on Google or wikipedia. See what you come up with. Another site that has several good teachings about this another topics is 119ministries.com.Their teachings "The Green Tree" and "Sunburned", which I think is a multiple part teaching, talk about these holidays.

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