Extrabiblical "Religious" Holidays

Hmm… and your off-topic comments are? :P

Relevant

Relevant in your universe. ;P (Anyway… I think we're cluttering up this topic. Not to abandon you… but I'm gonna stop. :) )

@Carissa :) All right. I do agree with you by the way, I'm not trying to challenge you or anything. ;) If I may ask what is your definition of a false convert?

If you won't cebralate (I know, I know) *National Bless Noah Cassidy Day* (at least send us chimichangas on our holiday, *Deadpool Appreciation Week*)

When is this?

Okay :) My definition of a false convert is someone how doesn't leave a life pleasing to God. Yes, true Christians will fall but they will always get back up. A false convert won't have a life of good works evidencing that they are saved.

Every single stinkin' day!

Noah,

I have asked you before and I am going to ask you again. Please keep all your unnecessary comments off the theology forums. We are trying to dicuss serious things and then you come on and make all these ridiculous comments. Thank you! I hope I have not come across harsh. If I have please tell me.

In Christ,
Carissa

What about every pleasant-smelling day?

Those too!

Noah and Sam: Please!

Should Christians celebrate Extrabiblical holidays.
Can we separate the religious from the non-religious?
A holiday most Americans celebrate is Thanksgiving, is this a religious holiday or just a day to gorge yourself on turkey, or remember the pilgrims, or count your blessings. I think that the original founders of this holiday were certainly not giving thanks to mother nature, probably not much to their friends and family or even to the natives; but to God.
The history we adhere to generally gives us this impression, but the world's revisionist history largely takes out the references to God in all of our nations history.
Should we then celebrate something because it has good press with the world, with current church leaders, or even our ancestors?

I think that the afore mentioned passage in Romans 14 presents the answers to the questions of what holidays should a christian celebrate.

Romans 14:5-6 ESV One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

So, some celebrate Christmas, and some don't. The Bible says neither are wrong, as long as they do it to the the glory of God.

As to whether we should celebrate something based upon the command of God, we can use the example of the celebration of Purim from the book of Esther.

The wicked plot against the people of God, and God delivers them,
The Jews, then set aside a special day for celebrating the deliverence given them by God.

The other celebrations we see in the Bible, are instituted to cause us to remember the goodness of God, or were pointing to his plan of salvation.

I believe this is what is done not necessarily in the creation of the holidays; Christmas and Easter, but in their celebration by True Christians today.
Both Christmas and Easter are times for us to give thanks to God and remember his goodness in sending his Son to save us.

I do not generally celebrate the old testament celebrations, because I am not Jewish, not that that is a prerequisite, but that it is not part of my heritage and tradition. But I have celebrated some of them for example Passover, and do see the importance of those days' remembrance and looking forward.

As to the issue of whether or not we should celebrate on a day that was used for pagan celebrations, and whether or not we should even celebrate a holiday that had pagan roots;

To some this may be an issue, and I would not encourage them to celebrate a holiday they believe to to be inappropriate, but to others, including myself, this does not prevent them from using the time to praise Christ with a pure conscience.

Just a note, Xmas is just a shortened word form for Christmas, the Greek letter X being pronounced ch and the first in Christ's name in Greek.

As to the reference made to not mentioning the names of other 'gods' if that means that we do not speak them, then we should not even use our current days of the week, being that they came from the Germanic/Norse gods e.g. Tiu : Tuesday, Woden : Wednesday, Thor : Thursday,(In jest: we haven't heard anyone yelling 'his' name about the forums. no offence meant.) etc. Rather I think this passage is referring to using the name of a false god in a way that shows belief or respect to the idol, or invokes their powers, and not in the way generaly we use them today.

In conclusion I would like to exhort all christians to do what Paul says in Galations 5:1 KJV

Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

@MilesChristiSum - I also asked about naming the days of the week on page 2, which has not really been answered yet. But I was wondering about that as well:).
@Carissa and Lady Elusive; if you could reply to the question of why it is acceptable to use the current widely-held names for the days of the week, and also whether or not you celebrate family birthdays (and if so, how), that would really contribute to my understanding of your views on this subject. If you can do that I will be happy to post my thoughts and will hopefully be able to more accurately understand and reply to the questions that have been raised. You've certainly given me a lot to think about. :)

@seth: You have my apologies! I saw your post but forgot to look for your answer (thinking that Carissa had addressed it).
We celebrate birthdays as a time to appreciate and think God for each other. We have a small “party” with Grandparents. However I believe that it is more important to look to Christ’s second coming.
With the days of the week, I wish we could go back to the original way of numbering the days (the way the Jews still do it). But how many people in America would know what I’m talking about if I were to say, “I’m going to the store on the third day of the week.”? I look forward to hearing your views on this subject! :)

@MCS: I agree with what you have stated above. I think that Romans 14:5-6 is a good indicator that we are not to judge one another for what we celebrate…God will judge. I personally would not leave a church just because they celebrated Christmas, but I might opt to have home church the week of that holiday (but being a girl I realize that it would be my husbands choice, not mine, whether or not I went to church).
I might just add that if a person feels convicted not to celebrate a holiday, but clings to it for the sake of tradition or anything else but God’s direction, then it is sin to them.
James 4:17 says, “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and dose not do it, to him it is sin.”
Thank you for using scripture in your comment. It was very encouraging to me! :)

You are right ' offense ' is used in the meaning of "stumble" in 1 Cor 8. Paul tells us not to offend our brother so as to make him possible to sin or stumble.
Romans 14.21" It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak. "
Paul speaks of the offence that can cause our brother to be offended in what he does (when his conscience is pure towards something he does in truth). He needs to do it in faith. But when he does that in offence it is evil (v.20). It is a sin if our brother is made weak in faith because of our deed.

Paul is not speaking of the hurt we might experience when are confronted with the truth or when chastened by God as he says in Heb 12. (and he doesn't use the word 'offence' in Heb 12 for that reason)

I used the quote in that the word 'offence'(implying hurt) is meant for edification and not for to be made weak in faith.

Hope I did not offend any one. did I?

I really appreciate too for the way you are all handling this debate making it an example to follow, as SavedbyGrace said.

The Romans passagewas not talking about days adopted from false religions.

According to my reading, Isaac, it does seem to still be within the context of the passage (meat that was offered to idols, etc.), so I think that MilesChristiSum's analysis is still valid. What do you think?

Hi, Lady Elusive, here are my responses to your post. Sorry it took me awhile. :)

1. Constantine himself is an interesting figure. Some have doubted the sincerity of his conversion, and it is one of the many mysteries of Christian history, but I think that his actions can be understood in his time period. He arose during a time when the Church was strong through persecution. Upon his claimed conversion, he began to express conviction regarding the "pagan-ness" of the Roman Empire. As a result, he attempted to turn pagan practices into Christian ones. Because the Roman Empire had been used to hating and persecuting Christians and practicing their own traditions, they would have been unwilling to simply give up their traditions. Constantine took Christianity and, trying to avoid causing riots and trying to bring good influences into pagan holidays, took them and put Christian elements into them. Constantine was NOT doing this to provide an excuse for Christians to celebrate the holidays; he did so in order to bring Christ into all areas of life. He himself personally renounced the pagan traditions, but he still attempted to maintain stability in an easily-fractured empire. These actions, as you said, caused some lukewarm Christians, but I believe that at that time the Church was still strong. Constantine, thus, in my belief was looking to God, but he made the (possibly unwise) decision of not removing pagan elements entirely to avoid civil war.

I am not sure I understand your conclusion. How is celebrating Christmas adding to Christianity, or how does it lead to it? I might be wrong, but I see no logical connection. I do not believe that adding a holiday not explicitly found in the Bible is a license to do whatever we want. If you could explain the connection, that would be very helpful. :)

1. I am not sure I understand your argument. In your response regarding the days of the week, you mentioned that you wish that we could go back to the Jewish numbering (which, by the way, means that you liked the names?), but you implied that it was not a sin to call them by their everyday names. How would you reconcile this? I suppose I am wondering, if something that was used for bad is now used for good, how can it still be a sin? No one in modern society worships trees any more, and no one in modern society would think that is what we are doing. No one thinks our celebration of Christmas is representative of paganism (that is, no one looks at us and says, "Oh, they are pagans worshipping a multitude of gods.") In fact, the old meanings have been completely erased (they have been for hundreds of years). Why should we be bound by former incorrect use of objects? God, for instance, created trees as beautiful and pleasing to the eye. Man corrupted that and worshipped the trees beauty. Is it wrong to again view trees and bring them into our homes and to admire (not worship) what our heavenly father has created? No. It is simply a matter of our twisting a practice back to a pure one. We don't give up the practice, just the motivation and the meaning. The practice is not in any way at fault; the true issue is not the tree, the lights, or the gifts, it is idolatry and greed. The present practice allows us to accomplish this. The past allows us to see how we can right what was twisted.

2. What exactly is God forbidding in this passage? The carving and decorating for the purpose of idolatrous worship. Is it wrong to carve a tree? No. I have done it many times (putting my initials into one and such). Is it wrong to tie a ribbon on the branch of a random tree you find in the forest in order to help you find your way home? I think that the answer is no. The deeper question behind all this is, why does God give us particular commandments? God does not want us to pray for the sake of closing our eyes. He does not want us to sing for the purpose of exercise. He does not want us to take Communion for the purpose of physical nourishment. He wants us to do them for the deeper purpose behind them. If our carving of a tree is intended to worship an idol, then that is a sin and an abomination. If our tying a ribbon on a tree is intended to decorate an idol, then we should all denounce it as sin. In the present day, however, we tie, decorate, and carve for the purpose of enjoying beauty. We do it not for evil, and our purposes are (or should be) pure. As a result, it is not mixing idolatry. It has been used as such, and that is what God denounces, but putting plastic on trees to simply view them as beautiful and bring attention to God is not sinful. Remember, the Old Testament law is pointing to a deeper law. Christ came in the New Testament and showed that behind the form of Old Testament Law were more powerful concepts. The laws of the Old Testament were right and good, but they pointed to deeper principles. The problem is not theft, it is greed; the problem is not adultery, it is lust; the problem is not idols, it is idolatry.

3. The world can be separated from Christmas. In our modern world, they are becoming more and more intertwined, but that is mainly through the work of commercialism. If you go back to the 1700s and 1800s, you will find that Christmas was almost entirely a celebration of Christ and his birth. Virtually none of it was associated with the world. Since that time, as Carissa noted, we have slowly seen Christmas crumble in a time of greed and commercialism. I believe that it is possible to take it back (and on this point we probably will disagree). Still, just because the world has attempted to take something does not mean that we ought to give up on it. We can certainly leave the world to its commercial and materialistic foolishness, but that does not mean we should give up all the associations of Christmas. :)

4. Please forgive me, Lady Elusive, but I am not sure I understand here. Are you saying that, because the apostles did not do it, then no one should, or are you saying that we should never celebrate Christ's birth because we should care more about his Second Coming?

I hope this helped to clarify my position a little bit better. :)

:) Thanks.

Seth, sorry I didn't answer these questions sooner. Here are my answers:
I have never realized that the names of the weeks are named after the gods of the past. I will look into that and get back to you with my thoughts.
Our family does celebrate birthdays. We normally just give some presents to the birthday person and spend time together as a family…we don't normally do to much.
Please understand that though the origins of Christmas are bad that is not my (our family's) only reason of why we don't celebrate it…there are other reasons as well.

Another thing…it is no where commanded in the Bible to celebrate Christmas.
And about birthdays no where in the Bible is that commanded and my dad has been thinking about not celebrately birthdays.

My parents made that same consideration a few years back… the verdict was that because was honoring to the Grandparents to have a time set aside to spend with them on the Birthday of each of us we would keep celebrating birthdays.

Okay.

@Carissa: I am curious. Are you advocating strict Letterism? That is, do you believe that we as Christians are only commanded to do what is strictly commanded in the Bible and never to practice anything else or that is outside the Bible or refers to topics which the Bible does not address? It seems to me a rather extreme position, for there is so much that we do that is not wrong (birthdays) but which the Bible does not address. I was wondering, if you do hold to strict Letterism (and I might be reading your comments incorrectly), why you believe so? :)

No. We do not hold to that! I' very sorry if I have come across that way. But my family and I want to be consistent in everything.

I know I'm late to get into this discussion, but I was wondering what you all think about the institution of the feast of Purim (Esther 9:26-32). It was not given by God but it was celebrated by the Israelites for some extended period of time. What about the commemoration of the daughter of Jephthah in Judges 11:39-40? Was it wrong for them to celebrate something that wasn't commanded? Or do you consider this different since it wasn't associated with a pagan holiday in its origins?

Oh, that is fine! I understand. :)

My, are some of you longwinded.
I just wanted to drop in and say that at Christmas (and Easter) time, our church has cantatas that we invite the neighborhood to. We do not have a lot of people in our church with an "evangelistic bent", so this is one opportunity that we have to reach out to the unsaved, give them a straight salvation message, with the springboard of the subject of Christmas (or Easter) that is on everyone's mind. Even if it not necessarily absolutely "correct" to celebrate it when we do, it also "forces" us to at least once a year be thankful for Christ's huge sacrifice (I like schedules, if it is not on my schedule it is much more likely that I will forget to do it, perhaps eventually never do it at all, so I have a justifiable reason to think that I do better having Christmas at a set time, once a year).
Though I am not particularly fond of all the Christmas trees, Made-in-China toys, and such-like (I do like the cookies, however), it does give a wider opening for witnessing to the unsaved than we have any other time of the year. While they complain about all the fuss and bother, all the toys they have to buy for their kids, or whatever, we have have real reason to love Christmas, and we can share it with them; it gives us something in common with, but not in common with them that sparks their curiosity. I am not an evangelistic person at all, so the thought walking up to someone and saying: "Have you heard about a fellow by the name of Jesus?" terrifies me. However, I can tell someone that I love Christmas, and when they ask me why, it would be much easier to share the gospel with them.
That was kind or rambling, but hopefully you will get the general idea.

Hmm. That was a little on the longwinded side too.

@Evie- I was going to bring up the same thing. :)

I'm going to take up the side of saying why we should celebrate Christmas, primarily because I want to see where the weak points are in this argument and to challenge myself to see if I can honestly in good conscience defend that position. It's not as easy as I expected. :)

As far as I can tell, if Christmas was traditionally celebrated on some random day that was not directly associated with any pagan celebrations, then no one would have a problem with it. I really don't care what day Christmas is celebrated on, and I would just as soon have it be on December 27th as the 25th. However, Christmas is such a prominent holiday in American culture that that is not going to happen. Right now I am on Christmas break from my college, and I know that they are not going to majorly revise their entire process just because of Christmas. That being the case, should we or should we not join with the world in celebrating Christmas on the 25th?

But what exactly is Christmas? Here we have some disagreements; I see Christmas as a time to celebrate and remember the birth of Jesus, but Carissa and Lady Elusive have a valid point that many people don't care about Christ's birth ("Happy Holidays") and for them it is just a time to give and receive presents, particularly receive. Does it please God to have many unbelievers who go to church, read the Christmas story (or not), but do not truly celebrate Christ's birth? This, in fact, does not actually change the situation. Many Jews could and probably did go through the motions of many of their feasts and not worship God through them. Joyous celebrations, instituted by God, can still be attended by people who celebrate for the same reasons that many people celebrate Christmas today. In fact, a Bible Bee memory verse comes to mind; "Those who are in the flesh cannot please God"- Romans 8:8. What about the unbeliever who does not have a Christmas tree, does not do presents, and simply reads the Christmas story and meditates on Jesus coming to this earth? Or who does not do anything for Christmas at all? Is that unbeliever any more pleasing to God than the one who has a Christmas tree, lights, presents, and everything generally associated with Christmas? No. I don't want to get into a debate hear about whether the unregenerate can do good works (though I would on another forum), but I support that position with verses such as Romans 8:8 and Isaiah 64:6.

So what about Christians? This is where the debate tends to lie, considering that I think all those involved in this conversation are professing Christians. Is God more or less pleased with someone who does/does not celebrate Christmas? The primary concern on this forum has been regarding the pagan origins of Christmas, concerning both the date and the decorations, such as the Christmas tree.
I think we can agree that simply because God did not originate a holiday does not mean we cannot celebrate it. Thanksgiving, 4th of July, and Purim (Esther 9:20-32) are all examples that can be used here.
We also can agree that simply because a pagan ceremony was held on a certain day of the year does not mean that we cannot use that day for anything celebrating God. After all, there are likely historical connections to pagan holidays for just about every day of the year. I can be argued, though, that Christmas is different because it is so closely related with the feast of Saturnalia. The question then becomes, 1). should we celebrate the birth of Christ 2). on a specific day of the year 3). On a day that is historically directly connected with an ungodly holiday, 4). with decorations which are also pagan in origin, and 5). on a day when many people celebrate a holiday by the same name, but with a different purpose, thus potentially distorting the true reason for the celebration?

First point; answer is undoubtedly yes, we should remember His birth and praise God continually for His goodness in sending His Son into this sinful earth, marking a significant part in the fulfillment of his promise in Genesis 3:15.

Concerning the second point, which has already been discussed quite a bit on this forum, I think we can agree that it is not necessary to set apart a specific day to remember Jesus' birth. Some people, myself included, benefit from that because it tends to be pushed into the background too much otherwise. However, I don't think anyone can biblically argue that it pleases God more or less to have a specific day set apart to remember a specific time when God's grace and mercy were clearly shown (or any other attribute, for that matter). So far so good.

Here comes the hard part. Should we celebrate Christmas on December 25th? As far as I can tell, the only objection to this particular day over any other is because of the connection with paganism, the thought being that God would not appreciate it for a day that is supposed to glorify Him to be celebrated on a day associated with the feast of Saturnalia. I'm not sure I fully understand the argument made here. I realize that for many people it may bother their conscience, and I certainly appreciate and respect that, but could you give a brief, to-the-point explanation, and specifically some scriptural support for your position, or point me to a post that does so? Yes, I did read everything written, but couldn't find what I was looking for.

Point 4: The Christmas Tree. Rather than attempt to say why a tree is fine, I would like to reverse the question and ask why it is different than using the modern names for days of the week, or using wedding rings. Yes, I just said that. :) To explain; rings in general are of course round, symbolizing the sun and moon, which were both worshiped, and also continuous, representing eternity. Rings have always had a lot of superstition attached to them, including rings with magical powers (not referring to LOTR here.:) ), such as 'Solomon's Ring' and may others. Betrothal/marriage rings are of Roman origin and were worn on the third finger of the left hand because of the belief that that vein travelled directly to the heart. Church steeples, honeymoons, and arguably traditional positions of praying also have pagan origins. Should these all be avoided as well?

Concerning the fifth point, which closely relates to points 2 and 3, I would ask what there is to be gained by changing the day we celebrate Christ's birth? Granted, a different day would not have the associations that Christmas does, but for those who do not celebrate Christ's birth on Christmas in the first place, it would make no difference if we celebrated it on a different day, and for those who do remember Jesus' coming to earth during that time, what would we gain from it?

There's my thoughts. :) I look forward to hearing your responses.

I'll reply when I have some time :)

No hurry. I could use a little break. :)

Okay :) Want to join us on Social chatting?

Not now, but thanks for the invite.

Alrighty :)

Great points, Seth! You are very clear in your words, and that is always very helpful. :)

Thanks for joining the discussion, Evie! BTW it was great meeting you at nationals!
I don't think that just because God didn't give us a command to do something that we shouldn't do it. I think that your examples are different from Christmas…at least the way I see it…cause Christmas had pagan origins and mostly today it is just a time to eat lots of food, get gifts, etc… It's so commercial these days.

Thanks for joining, Margaret!
About using Christmas as an evangelistic thing. The thought of going up to someone to talk to them about Christ may terrify you. But you can't look at it that way! We are in a world of dying people! They are going to hell! We can't think that just because it terrifies us we don't have to go up to them! We must go up to them even if they laugh at us. We shouldn't think that we can just use a pagan-origined holiday to evangelize.

Of course not. That was not what I was saying. I was just suggesting that it made it much easier for me and gave us some sort of "common ground" to start from. We both celebrate Christmas, we both are preparing for Christmas, but for completely different reasons. Do you see what I mean?

I know. But I don't think we should use a holiday that has pagan origins and that is so commercial today! That shouldn't make us have "common ground" with them! They aren't going to see it as you celebrating Christmas because of Christ's birth (most the time) but to celebrate it in the way they do. We are to be in the world but not of the world! Not using our common grounds with the world as a means of evangelizing.

I'm very sorry if I have come across harsh. If I have please let me know.

You seem to forget that Christmas also has Christian origins. That is the "Christ" part.
Not that I am saying that I wouldn't prefer having it on a different day. I just don't think that you can condemn celebrating Christ's birth one day of the year. However, I think that if we had it on a different day they would just turn that into another commercializing opportunity. Take Easter, for instance.

We both share the world that God made and see death in that world. Does that mean that I shouldn't use that "common ground" that we have to evangelize?
Personally, I think that this is an "observe (or not) to the Lord" sort of thing, not something to get into arguments about. I was just saying that our church uses it as opportunity to reach out to our neighborhood through our very clear celebration of Christ's birth.

You aren't coming across that harshly, but really I think you could spend your energy trying to convince people to your way of thinking for something bigger than this. I mean, seriously, the possibility of someone being led astray over a Christian celebrating Christmas is quite small. I don't expect you to start celebrating Christmas just because I state what I do and why, but I would put a lot more thought, prayer, and argument into if you thought Jesus was only a good man, or even something like if you thought that you could lose your salvation.

Can someone explain what you mean by "paganism"?

Paganism: any of various religions other than Christianity or Judaism or Islamism.
For me it would be any kind of idolatry.

Hi, Elusive Lady! Are you saying that Islam is not a pagan religion, or were you providing a definition and clarifying it with saying that all idolatry (including Islam) falls within your own definition of paganism? Sorry about the confusion! I am just trying to understand what you are saying. :)

Hi Jimmy! Sorry, was in a hurry and for got to add that the first sentence in my post was not my own definition. :)
I think that paganism comprises all kinds of idolatry, including that of the heart.
Edit: So yes, Islam is considered paganism.
(To be completely clear when I say “idolatry of the heart” I mean anything that we love more then God.)

That is what I thought you meant. I was just trying to clarify. :)

I whole-heartedly agree with your definition, by the way. :) If we love anything more than God, it certainly is idolatry.

@ Carissa: Thanks, it was good to meet you too.

I haven't really researched this much, but I have heard (probably from my Christian science book or some similar reliable source) that the Christmas was originally a holiday celebrated by the pagan inhabitants of Britain which centered around the passing of the winter solstice and the "victory" of light over darkness. When Christianity was brought to Britain, they replaced this holiday with a celebration of the coming of the Light, Jesus, and His victory over the darkness of sin. So although it was a pagan celebration, it was redeemed for Christ. The former pagans, like us, probably messed it up a lot and fell back into their sins plenty of times, but I really don't think that should affect our view of the day anymore than Mass should affect Protestants' view of Sunday worship.
It is pretty widely understood that we don't think Jesus was actually born on December 25th and that we don't celebrate His birth on that day because of pagan worship or commercialism.
God created December 25th, and He made it very good. Men sinned and chose to sin particularly on that day. Why can we not choose to celebrate our Savior on the very day when our need for salvation was made particularly evident? I see no reason not to.

Amen to all of that, and it's nice to "see" you again, Evie.

The origins are not Christian. The origins are pagan and the Catholic church added Christ into it.

You aren't coming across that harshly, but really I think you could spend your energy trying to convince people to your way of thinking for something bigger than this. I mean, seriously, the possibility of someone being led astray over a Christian celebrating Christmas is quite small. I don't expect you to start celebrating Christmas just because I state what I do and why, but I would put a lot more thought, prayer, and argument into if you thought Jesus was only a good man, or even something like if you thought that you could lose your salvation.

Thank you for telling me this. I would be happy to discuss other topics with people and I will pull out of this discussion as you think that I'm not building up my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ but instead am arguing needlessly. I'm very sorry that I have been arguing. Will you all please forgive me?

In Christ,
Carissa