Immortality

Do all spirits of men live forever? Do the unbelievers that go to hell suffer eternally? Does the doctrine of unconditional immortality affect evangelism?

Discuss!

I am not super knowledgeable on this subject, but according to what I've read in the Bible, mankind's spirit goes either to heaven or hell. It doesn't say that it will stop. It does mention several times "eternal damnation" or "everlasting life".

If anyone agrees with Scripture, then he must believe that mens' spirits do live forever. The Bible does make it clear that a human soul will go either to "eternal life" by repenting of their sins and trusting in Christ alone for salvation or to hell, a place of endless, conscious torment, where there is no rest from agony for eternity. This is why it is so important to make sure you are saved and to witness to others–remember the punishment for failing to be saved from your sin!

Amen, Nicolas!

On a slightly different note, what are people's views about how soon a soul goes to its eternal destination after death?

Do Christians immediately go to Heaven, and unbelievers immediately go to Hell? Or does every soul remain in an unconscious, "sleeping" state until Judgment Day?

The soul of a Christian goes to heaven after death. No intermediate state.
The soul of a Rebel goes to hell after death. No intermediate state.
However, until Christ returns, the bodies of both the Christian and not remain in the grave. Only their souls are in heaven or hell respectively. When Christ returns, Christians will be united with their perfected physical bodies and live with Christ for eternity on the new heavens and the new earth.
Rebels will be united with their bodies (not perfected in any sense of the word) and will go to hell for eternity.

I think this discussion needs some gasoline and some fire; so, here we go…

In Jesus' parable about Lazarus and the rich man, He describes Lazarus' destination as Abraham's bosom, and I've heard other commentators equate this place with "Paradise." Christ never refers to it as heaven. He then describes the rich man going to Hades, usually referred to as hell. Then Jesus says that there is a "great gulf fixed between" the two places, but they can still see and converse with one another.

If these conditions did/do not exist, then why did Jesus go to such great detail to describe such fictitious places? Many have argued for centuries that Jesus is describing the place where saints and the condemned would go prior to Jesus' resurrection. "Paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" is argued to be the place where saints went when they died on earth, as well as where Christ went after He died, making it possible for Him to preach to those in chains over in Hades (NOT the gospel message in order for them to still be saved, but to show His fulfillment of God's redemptive plan), while He was in Paradise with the thief on the cross and the other saints. On the third day, He rose from the dead, taking with Him all the saints, as Matthew records how some resurrected saints were seen walking around Jerusalem at that time.

It is also argued, based on many Scriptures seemingly alluding to such, that Hades and Paradise are located in the center of the earth.

Hades (hell) continues to hold all of the spirits of the unsaved deceased, while all saints go directly to heaven. "Paradise" has been empty since Christ arrived and took everyone with Him at His resurrection. At the final judgment, according to Revelation, hell (all of its inhabitants) and death (the unsaved's dead bodies and those still alive at Christ's Second Coming) will be cast into the eternal lake of fire, the final destination of all unsaved people (body and soul/spirit).

What say ye?

If you were making an example, would you include details? Jesus did. That doesn't mean it's a real place. Besides, he didn't go into "great detail". It's called a parable for a reason. He was making the point that once you're dead, there is no turning back. You're fried, or you're with Abraham (maybe indicative of all the saints? Just hypothesis, not sure.).
When you die, you can't go and visit your relatives in hell! You can't come and get cool water from Lazarus! It's final. If you didn't pay attention to God's Word on earth, God's not going to give you a second chance.

Oh, just so you know, Jesus didn't preach to those in hell (hell/Hades, whatever, it's the same thing). He preached to those who "formerly did not obey, while the ark was being prepared". Notice when he did this and how. "…being made alive in the spirit, in which (so he was in the spirit when he preached) he went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, WHEN they formerly did not obey…" So preached to them in the spirit (in Noah), WHEN they refused to come on the ark. Not after he died on the cross. WHEN they refused to obey.

Besides, why would God make two hells? Why two heavens?

@Octo–Why would God make a "new heaven and a new earth?" And why does the Bible say that Hell will be thrown into the Lake of Fire? :D

Because the old earth is fallen. The heavens is the universe. (2 Peter 2)
This is expressing the idea of cleansing and renewal.
Hell will be thrown into the lake of fire. Hmm, what's the address for that text?

Revelation 20:13-14 (ESV):

"And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire."

Now, if the "lake of fire" was/is already hell, why would the dead in Hades need to be thrown back into the same place? Are they removed, then judged, then returned? Why even judge them? They're already experiencing their punishment.

Maybe it's me, but it seems like they're two separate places, and the lake of fire seems to be worse than Hades, especially since judgment precedes being cast into the lake of fire AND those in the sea and in the ground are also thrown in there.

Something to ponder.

So you are saying that there are different levels of hell (Hades and the lake of fire).

Unsaved persons who die before the judgment day go to hell. At the judgment day, ALL men will be judged before God. ALL men will be accounted guilty. Only those whose sins are covered by the blood of Christ will dwell in the new heavens and the new earth. All others will go back to hell.
That explains part of your question. I do believe that those in hell will be taken out, judged, and sent back. But it's not just them. ALL men will be judged at that time. Their punishment will never cease, because being judged requires being in the presence of God, which for the unsaved is torment.

No, the torment will never stop, but I don't think that necessitates that the unsaved go back to the hell they were in before the judgment. Revelation 20:14 explicitly states, "Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire."

I'm not sure I agree with my dad on the "Paradise" issue though…

Give me more texts.

I think you know that there aren't any more. :P

It's just one text.
But that doesn't mean I should discount it.
I just think there should be more texts behind it.

Well, the "lake of fire" mentioned in Revelation is described as being separate from hell/Hades. And it doesn't make sense to pull people out of hell, judge them, and then throw them back into the same place, but call it something different after they're sentenced.

If they're to remain in the same place, why not just judge them while they're there, over a loud speaker or something, and tell them that's where they're staying forever as their final verdict?

Are there any passages that equate the "lake of fire" with hell/Hades? They seem to be two separate places to me.

(NOTE: This does not mean there is a purgatory, nor that man has any second chances after death!! Let's make that clear!)

You're right. They're two different places.
Hell is the place where the souls of the wicked go after death. It is a spiritual reality, just as heaven is a spiritual reality. At the judgment, all men's bodies will be united again with their souls. The damned will be thrown into the lake of fire, a physical place, and the redeemed will reign with Christ on the new earth, also a physical place.
It should have been rather obvious to me. It is only right that pre-judgment hell should be different than post-judgment, because after the judgment, all men will have their bodies united to their souls again, so they can't go back to the same hell where only their soul was damned.
Agreed?

(NOTE: I am not about to make a straw man out of your position!)

Hey! I actually agree with your assessment, @Octo. Physical vs. Spiritual.

Totally makes sense.

Yeah. It explains the text and is also perfectly logical and necessary.

If anyone agrees with Scripture, then he must believe that mens' spirits do live forever.

Nicolas, by saying this you are accusing me of not agreeing with Scripture. You are essentially committing the "no true Scotsman" fallacy. I kind of expected such a reaction, though. I do believe in the doctrine of conditional immortality or annihilationism.

Here's a question: If men's spirits live forever, why does Romans 6:23 say that the wages of sin is DEATH? Why does John 3:16 specifically state that the God only gives the gift of eternal life to the believers in Christ? Why does John 12:25 say that he that loves his life will lose it (i. e. death)? These verses are NOT out of context. Some other great verses for refuting unconditional immortality are John 3:15, 36; 1 Corinthians 15:53-54; and 1 John 3:15. Also consider Matthew 19:29, 25:46; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; John 4:14, 5:24, 6:27, 40, 47, 54, 10:28, 17:2-3; Acts 13:46; Romans 2:7, 5:21, 6:22; Galatians 6:8; 1 Timothy 1:16, 6:12; 2 Timothy 1:10; Titus 1:2, 3:7; 1 John 1:2, 2:25, 5:11-13, 5:20; Jude 1:21; and possibly others that I missed in my recent searches on Bible Gateway. All of these verses seem to infer that only the righteous receive eternal life. There are a few passages, like Matthew 18:8; Mark 3:29, 9:43-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 6:2; Jude 1:6; (and pleas forgive me if I've missed any) that mention phrases like "eternal damnation". For a refutation of this, Isaiah 34:10 says "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever…" talking about a rebellious city that will be destroyed. Now, do you really believe that the smoke from that city is still ascending today? Of course not! Isaiah was talking about the significance and irreversibility of the event, not the duration. Such it is in these few passages. It is interesting to note in Mark 9:43-48 it says three times "…their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." So what creature lives for ever in hell? The worm! And even if the fires of hell are not quenched (literally), that does not mean that the spirits confined to hell live forever. I will sum up my arguments with this: Why would a loving God punish His created beings with eternal torture for finite sins? Think about it.

Because their finite sins are against an INFINITE God.
Sin against an infinite God deserves infinite punishment.

The righteous receive ETERNAL life, the unrighteous receive ETERNAL death (damnation).

Here's a quote from William C. Nichols about why an eternal hell is necessary:
"Why is hell necessary? Let us examine several reasons for the necessity of hell.
1) The Great Evil in Sin and the Holiness of God.
The difficulty most people have in understanding the necessity of hell is related to an incomplete and inadequate understanding of both how awful sin is and how glorious God is. We do not see what a great evil is in the least sin, nor do we understand God's holiness, His justice, and His wrath. If we saw sin as the greatest evil in the world and realized that every sin is a rejection of God's rule over us, a sneering at Him, a shaking of our fist in His face, and a hurling of dung at Him, we would begin to understand a small bit of what our sin is like to God. Every time we sin, we either set ourselves, or a pet lust, up in our hearts as a rival god. Sin rejects the Creator as God and sets up the creature in His place.
If we could comprehend God's holiness and what it means to be holy, pure, perfect, upright, and untainted by the least sin, we would have a better idea of why God hates sin so much. Absolute holiness cannot tolerate the least sin: "Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity"(Habakkuk 1:13). If we could understand the glorious holiness and purity of God and also the abominable nature of sin more, then we would have no problem with the absolute necessity of hell.
"The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jeremiah 17:9). The human heart is sick. The human heart is wicked. The human heart is deceitful. The corruption in the heart causes us to be deceived about the awfulness of sin as well as many other things.
2) God's Infinite Nature.
In understanding what our sin is really like, we must view it through the eyes of God. God is an infinite, eternal being. Every act of sin is committed against an infinite, holy God. In every act of sin we dethrone God and set ourselves above god. In every sin this question is the issue," whose will shall be done, God's will or man's? Now, man by sin sets his own will above the Lord's, and so kicks God as filth under his feet." A single act of sin committed against a holy, infinite God deserves infinite punishment. IT IS AN INFINITE EVIL TO OFFEND AN INFINITE GOD EVEN ONCE [emphasis mine].
3) Divine Justice.
Even one sin against God calls for God to vindicate His name and His justice by punishing it as fully as it deserves. God can and will vindicate His justice. He promises to do so in Romans 12:19: "Leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, 'Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.'" One of the greatest preachers that ever live, Jonathan Edwards, wrote, "The glory of God is the greatest good; it is that which is the chief end of creation; it is of greater importance than anything else. But this is one way wherein God will glorify Himself, as in the eternal destruction of ungodly en He will glorify His justice. Therein He will appear as a just governor of the world. The vindictive justice of God will appear strict, exact, awful, and terrible, and therefore glorious.""

That was sort of a backdrop (which I hope you agree with). But more to the point, here's the same man on hell's eternality:
"Christ, describing the great day of judgment, tells of the separation of the wicked and the righteous using these words: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal" (Matthew 25:46). Is there anyone who would deny that heaven exists eternally? Will the lives of the blessed in heaven be brought to an end one day? Of course not. But the same Greek word is used here in this verse to speak of the eternal life of the righteous and the everlasting punishment of the wicked. Hell will last as long as heaven does."

And some more: "The first reason we will look at [for the necessity of the eternality of hell] is… The God who damns men is an eternal God. "Ultimately the eternality of hell is based upon the nature of God." Is God's Word eternal? Is God's nature eternal? The Scripture tells us: "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, and today, and forever" (Hebrews 13:8). "His righteousness endureth forever" (Psalm 111:3). "The word of the Lord endureth forever" (1 Peter 1:25). If God's Word is eternal, if God's righteousness is eternal, if God himself is eternal, then why shouldn't his wrath be eternal as well? As eternally existent, all of God's attributes are eternal and immutable; therefore, hell, as an expressions of God's wrath, must be eternal.
Hell must be eternal because God's justice could never be satisfied by the punishment of sinners no matter how long it lasts. Christ makes this clear when He speak about settling with your accuser before you get to court, otherwise you shall be cast into prison, and "I tell thee, thou shalt not depart thence, till thou hast paid the very last mite" (Luke 12:59). Man can do nothing to pay for his sins. No amount of punishment in hell, no matter how long, can ever atone for sins. It is impossible; therefore, hell must be eternal.
Thirdly, hell must be eternal because the Scriptures tell us that the worm which gnaws the conscience of men in hell never dies. "For their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched: (Isaiah 66:24). If the worm never dies, then those being tormented by the worm shall never die.
Lastly, hell will be eternal because men continue to sin in hell. They increase and compound their guilt there. Hell is a place where tormented men curse God, curse themselves, and scream and wail with blasphemous language at their fellow men around them. Wicked men will increase each others torments as they accuse, blame, and condemn one another. Men will not repent in hell because the character of sinners does not change. They remain sinners still. Men will sin to eternity, therefore God will punish then eternally."

This is from a tract defending the reality and character of hell as seen in Scriptures. It is called The Terrors of Hell and can be had from the Chapel Library ( a Christian publication of reformed and puritan works from long ago; www.mountzion.org)
Thanks for reading this LENGTHY post!

Consider these verses:
Ephesians 2:4-6 - "But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus…"
Colossians 2:13 - "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses…"
Paul says here that we were dead in our trespasses and sins when God saved us. Were we physically dead? No. But were we spiritually dead? Yes. So wait, we were spiritually dead before we were in hell? Yes. Spiritual death is a result of being a sinner, and it will continue that way into hell, unless God intervenes. Physical death happens to both Christians and not (a result of the fall [sin]), so why would God say that "the wages of sin is death" if it did not mean both spiritual and physical death? Physical death is the wages (result, penalty, payment) of the fall (which was sin), and both Christians and not will die. Spiritual death is also a wage of the fall.) So spiritual death cannot mean annihilation, because we were spiritually dead before being saved.
John 3:18 speaks of condemnation.

I'm sorry to be so blunt, Matthew, but I believe that you are disagreeing with Scripture–very clear Scripture! I don't see how the verses you gave are supposed to back up your belief, since all they show is that believers will receive eternal life, and nonbelievers will receive eternal damnation. Octavius showed how this works in saying that our sins are against an infinite God. If you lie to your boss, you will get fired. If you lie to the government, it is treason, and you will get sent to jail for quite a while. How much more if you sin against an infinitely holy God! Even one sin will send someone to hell, according to this–but the problem is, all of us have committed many, many, many sins. We definitely deserve to go to an eternal hell… but that is what makes the gospel so amazing!!

If you believe that hell has an eventual end, you are denying the infinity of God's holiness! Also, if what you are saying is true, wouldn't God have made it more clear in Scripture? But the Bible shows that hell is eternal, and rightly so. Please show me how you can compromise God's infinite holiness with a hell that has an end.

You said in your post…"There are a few passages, like Matthew 18:8; Mark 3:29, 9:43-48; 2 Thessalonians 1:9; Hebrews 6:2; Jude 1:6; (and please forgive me if I've missed any) that mention phrases like "eternal damnation". For a refutation of this, Isaiah 34:10 says "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever…" talking about a rebellious city that will be destroyed. Now, do you really believe that the smoke from that city is still ascending today? Of course not! Isaiah was talking about the significance and irreversibility of the event, not the duration. "
Okay, look, Isaiah 34 is prophecy, so of course we don't believe that the smoke is still rising from the city. But the texts that you mentioned that bear the phrase "eternal damnation" are NOT prophecy, and cannot be interpreted in a like manner. It says later in Isaiah 34 that all sorts of different animals shall inhabit the place that was judged (the place from which the smoke was to rise forever). They are said to inhabit the place forever as well. If the smoke was still rising up from the place, they wouldn't be living there. And we also can't say that the animals will live there literally forever. This is prophecy, figurative language, and cannot be used to misinterpret non-prophetic texts.

I think Isaiah 34 refers to a real time when God judged Edom, and is also a prophecy of when God shall destroy all those who reject him. Likely, Edom (another name for Esau) is a reference to the unsaved (the "people devoted to destruction" v5). These people are Esau [Edom], for they are the one's whom God hates ("Jacob I have loved, but Esau [Edom] I have hated" Rom 9:13).
In conclusion, Isaiah 34 DOES NOT refute unconditional immortality!

Ummm… I looked up all the verses that were supposed to refute unconditional immortality (on Biblegateway, BTW) and all of them just said that those who are saved will have eternal life. They don't deal with what happens to the unsaved (although some did say that the unsaved will undergo ETERNAL DAMNATION).

I may need to bring my Dad into this discussion, if this goes on much longer… because I am not super knowledgeable about this subject, but my Dad is and he feels very strongly about it. I may ask him to find an article defending annihilationism.

Many of your quotations, Octavius, look good on the outside; however, the arguments in them for unconditional immortality don't really have much, if any, Scriptural support.

Here are some verses:
John 3:15 and 16: "…whosoever believeth in him shall not perish…" How can you perish in hell if you live for ever in hell?
Romans 6:23: "… the gift of God is eternal life…" If this is true, why do all spirits of men have eternal life already, whether they believe in God or not?
John 3:36: "…he that believeth not the Son shall not see life…"
1 Corinthians 15:53: "…this mortal must put on immortality." But unconditional immortality states that we are all immortal, whether we believe in God or not.
1 John 3:15: "…no murderer (sinner) hath eternal life abiding in him."

When I said "Why would a loving God…", I meant "merciful God". God is merciful. Even to unbelievers, he is merciful.

"…the unrighteous receive ETERNAL death (damnation)." You are very right, Octavius. I do believe that nonbelievers will receive eternal damnation. What that means is, death. Annihilation. You don't exist any more. The damnation is separation from God, and of course that is eternal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is a single Scripture that mentions the phrase "conscious eternal torment" or anything like it.

"…why shouldn't his wrath be eternal as well?" Because God's mercy is stronger than his wrath. Psalm 30:5: "For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning."

"We definitely deserve to go to an eternal hell…" Does Holy Scripture say that? Give me a single Scripture that says finite sins against an infinite God deserve eternal punishment. I thought the wages of sin was death.

"…the texts that you mentioned that bear the phrase "eternal damnation" are NOT prophecy…" Okay, so what is the definition of prophecy? "A prediction of the future" is what it means. That is exactly what those references are. Those references may not be in "books of prophecy", but there is actually prophecy in almost every book of the Bible.

"How much more if you sin against an infinitely holy God!" I know exactly how much more. The Bible tells me. Death.

"…both Christians and not will die." Yes, but the death of the Christians is temporary. They will be resurrected and live forever with God.

"…God's justice could never be satisfied by the punishment of sinners no matter how long it lasts." Since this is true, why wouldn't God, who is eternally merciful as well, just annihilate them instead of eternally tormenting them?

"…hell, as an expressions [sic] of God's wrath, must be eternal." Using this same reasoning, you could say that the physical creation, as an expression of God's creativity, must be eternal. Of course, that is absurd.

"I don't see how the verses you gave are supposed to back up your belief…" They do so by telling us that the gift of God to those who believe in Christ is eternal life, inferring that Christians and only Christians live forever.

Sorry if I'm being to aggressive, but this is the place, if there is any, for aggressiveness.

EDIT: One more thing… The doctrine of unconditional immortality does indeed affect evangelism. Many atheists have said that one of the main reasons they don't accept the existence of God is because Christians say that he torments unbelievers eternally. I don't have any exact quotes, but I have heard of many people saying that before.

"Many of your quotations, Octavius, look good on the outside; however, the arguments in them for unconditional immortality don't really have much, if any, Scriptural support."
That's according to your opinion. These men are using Biblical logic. They supported themselves from Scripture.

"Here are some verses:
John 3:15 and 16: "…whosoever believeth in him shall not perish…" How can you perish in hell if you live for ever in hell?"
Whoever said perishing is annihilation? Perishing means an eternal process of perishing. Even as we type these words, we are perishing (physically). The soul of the unbeliever is also in a constant state of perishing (dying). But a spirit cannot not exist, so the constant state of dying is never-ending. Spirits are indestructible.

""Romans 6:23: "… the gift of God is eternal life…" If this is true, why do all spirits of men have eternal life already, whether they believe in God or not?"" All spirits of men don't have eternal life. All spirits of men live forever. There is a BIG difference. Eternal life is ALWAYS used in reference to salvation. Everlasting life doesn't just mean that you will live forever. That is true of all souls. It means much more than that. It means that you will be perfect. The unsaved in hell don't have everlasting life, they have everlasting damnation! All spirits of men life forever, some in everlasting life, some in everlasting damnation.

"John 3:36: "…he that believeth not the Son shall not see life…""
Whoever does not believe in the Son will not have everlasting life. It does not say that they will not live eternally, it says that they will not have eternal life (critical difference).

"1 Corinthians 15:53: "…this mortal must put on immortality." But unconditional immortality states that we are all immortal, whether we believe in God or not."
That is a reference to our glorification, when our BODIES will be changed (glorified) so that we shall never die again. This is not talking about our spirits.

"1 John 3:15: "…no murderer (sinner) hath eternal life abiding in him.""
Again, the text does not say that no murderer's soul will life forever, it says no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

"When I said "Why would a loving God…", I meant "merciful God". God is merciful. Even to unbelievers, he is merciful."
You are right. He is merciful because he has allowed them to live even though they reject him and defy him every single day. He is very merciful to them. He gives them breath. But this does not mean that he will compromise His divine justice. He can't do that. It is impossible for him to do that. He must punish sin eternally. It is an offense against an eternal God. If His mercy is eternal, so is his wrath and justice.

""…the unrighteous receive ETERNAL death (damnation)." You are very right, Octavius. I do believe that nonbelievers will receive eternal damnation. What that means is, death. Annihilation. You don't exist any more. The damnation is separation from God, and of course that is eternal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe there is a single Scripture that mentions the phrase "conscious eternal torment" or anything like it."
The Bible never uses the word trinity. Doesn't mean it isn't there. It doesn't use the words "conscious eternal torment". Doesn't mean that it isn't there. Spirits can't die. Nothing spiritual ever did and ever will be annihilated. Only physical things can pass away.
[BTW, you believe that punishment is eternal. In your view, annihilation (separation from God) is eternal. Separation from God is punishment. You believe in eternal punishment as well.]
Was the rich man conscious in Hades (hell)? Yes. He was able to ask Abraham and Lazarus questions. He was conscious.

""…why shouldn't his wrath be eternal as well?" Because God's mercy is stronger than his wrath. Psalm 30:5: "For his anger endureth but a moment; in his favour is life: weeping may endure for a night, but joy cometh in the morning.""
This text does not say one attribute is stronger or greater than another. God's attributes are equal. Is God more love than light? If we believe that, we get a mushy gospel. Is God more light than love? If we believe that, we get a love-less gospel. God's attributes are equally infinite. His attributes are, like God himself, infinite. You can't have something that is more infinite than another infinite thing. God's mercy is stronger than his wrath only TO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM. To those who do not love him, who are sinners, God has ONLY wrath, in hell.
"Visiting the iniquity of fathers on their children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands, to those who love me and keep my commandments." God has both wrath and mercy. They are equally a part of him, they are equally infinite. One is not stronger than another. God's mercy results in everlasting life. God's wrath results in everlasting damnation.

""We definitely deserve to go to an eternal hell…" Does Holy Scripture say that? Give me a single Scripture that says finite sins against an infinite God deserve eternal punishment. I thought the wages of sin was death."
The wages of sin IS death. Physical death now, spiritual eternal perishing in hell. Spirit's can't die.

""…the texts that you mentioned that bear the phrase "eternal damnation" are NOT prophecy…" Okay, so what is the definition of prophecy? "A prediction of the future" is what it means. That is exactly what those references are. Those references may not be in "books of prophecy", but there is actually prophecy in almost every book of the Bible."
Okay. What I meant by prophecy is that Isaiah is not being strictly literal. The other texts ARE LITERAL. We can't interpret a literal text that has the same word as a non-literal text in the same way. If we define eternal merely to mean significant, then eternal life is only a figure of speech. If you are willing to redefine the word eternal/everlasting in context with the word damnation, then you should be will to do the same thing in context with the word life.

""How much more if you sin against an infinitely holy God!" I know exactly how much more. The Bible tells me. Death."
But spirit's can't die. they can undergo the punishment of eternal death/damnation, but they don't die in the same sense that a physical body dies. They are dead to God, slaves of sin. You can't be a slave of sin if you don't exist.

""…both Christians and not will die." Yes, but the death of the Christians is temporary. They will be resurrected and live forever with God."
The wicked will be resurrected as well. All men will be resurrected. Some to eternal life, and others to eternal judgment.

""…God's justice could never be satisfied by the punishment of sinners no matter how long it lasts." Since this is true, why wouldn't God, who is eternally merciful as well, just annihilate them instead of eternally tormenting them?"
Because if it is mercy to annihilate, which is impossible and is not mercy, then God just let off a whole bunch of sin. God's justice cannot be sacrificed on the altar of the human concept of God's mercy.
Again, as I said above, even annihilation is torment. It is separation from God, and separation from God is torment. Annihilation is eternal torment.

""…hell, as an expressions [sic] of God's wrath, must be eternal." Using this same reasoning, you could say that the physical creation, as an expression of God's creativity, must be eternal. Of course, that is absurd."
Physical places (creation) pass away and are no more. Spiritual creations (souls/spirits) cannot pass away and no longer exist.
"I don't see how the verses you gave are supposed to back up your belief…" They do so by telling us that the gift of God to those who believe in Christ is eternal life, inferring that Christians and only Christians live forever.

"Sorry if I'm being to aggressive, but this is the place, if there is any, for aggressiveness."
No need to apologize.

"EDIT: One more thing… The doctrine of unconditional immortality does indeed affect evangelism. Many atheists have said that one of the main reasons they don't accept the existence of God is because Christians say that he torments unbelievers eternally. I don't have any exact quotes, but I have heard of many people saying that before."
You are right. Humans cannot comprehend a totally righteous and just God. They are blinded to the truth of God's wrath because of their rejection of God's mercy (the Gospel).

@Octavius: I wish I had the time to give a thorough point-to-point rebuttal of your point-to-point rebuttal of my point-to-point rebuttal. I don't though, so I just wanted to ask about these few topics:

Throughout your last reply, you constantly assumed that spirits can't die. That was the basis of nearly all your arguments. But Christ said in Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." So souls (i. e. the spiritual entity) can be destroyed. BTW: you are being inconsistent as well, for a few replies up you said these exact words: "…we were spiritually dead before we were in hell? Yes." You said that spiritual death can happen, now you are saying it cannot? This is very inconsistent.

"Was the rich man conscious in Hades (hell)? Yes. He was able to ask Abraham and Lazarus questions. He was conscious." But the Bible does not say that his consciousness was eternal.

"It doesn't use the words "conscious eternal torment". Doesn't mean that it isn't there." I agree, but the ideas behind unconditional immortality aren't really there either, if you search the Scriptures thoroughly.

"""…the texts that you mentioned that bear the phrase "eternal damnation" are NOT prophecy…" Okay, so what is the definition of prophecy? "A prediction of the future" is what it means. That is exactly what those references are. Those references may not be in "books of prophecy", but there is actually prophecy in almost every book of the Bible."
Okay. What I meant by prophecy is that Isaiah is not being strictly literal. The other texts ARE LITERAL. We can't interpret a literal text that has the same word as a non-literal text in the same way. If we define eternal merely to mean significant, then eternal life is only a figure of speech. If you are willing to redefine the word eternal/everlasting in context with the word damnation, then you should be will to do the same thing in context with the word life." This argument (actually a continuation of the argument in your previous post) is circular. It assumes the same thing it is trying to prove, namely, that the other texts are literal. As a circular argument, it doesn't prove anything.

"…even annihilation is torment. It is separation from God, and separation from God is torment. Annihilation is eternal torment." Okay, if the argument above is sound (which I am doubtful of), then I agree that God does give "eternal torment" to unbelievers in that, and only that, sense.

"""Romans 6:23: "… the gift of God is eternal life…" If this is true, why do all spirits of men have eternal life already, whether they believe in God or not?"" All spirits of men don't have eternal life. All spirits of men live forever. There is a BIG difference. Eternal life is ALWAYS used in reference to salvation. Everlasting life doesn't just mean that you will live forever. That is true of all souls. It means much more than that. It means that you will be perfect. The unsaved in hell don't have everlasting life, they have everlasting damnation! All spirits of men life forever, some in everlasting life, some in everlasting damnation." This argument seems to me purely arbitrary and is also circular.

There are many more things I'd like to say, but don't have time. Some of my arguments are admittedly faulty. I'm not an expert on this subject. But, I am going to type out a tract like you did soon (maybe tomorrow) that will explain why annihilationism agrees with the Bible in every respect.

Okay, this is going to be a VERY long post. I searched through the tracts at church and found a couple I liked. Here are some excerpts from them:

The first one is called "The Punishment of the Wicked". I have condensed or skipped over writing out the verses in some places for the sake of brevity. I would appreciate it if you look up the verses in your Bible if you do not have them memorized.

"Two Deaths
The Bible teaches two deaths. One is the natural death when we cease to breathe and fall asleep, as did Lazarus. (See John 11:11-14.) Then the body is placed in the grave and there awaits "…the voice of the archangel and…the trump of God…" (1 Thess. 4:16)
The other death is called the "second death" (Rev. 2:11). It takes place after the thousand-year reign of the saints on earth with Christ. (See Rev. 20:4-5; also Rev 5:10.) Furthermore we read, "…He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). More is said about the second death in Rev. 21:8. Even the devil will not be able to survive when God decides to call a halt to sin and sinners.
Notice 2 Peter 3:7-13, which in part reads: "…the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved…the elements shall melt with fervent heat. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
That fire will be much hotter and more destructive than most preachers believe today. Many are teaching that the fires of hell will only torture the wicked while the Bible teaches they shall be burned up and nothing left of them.

Complete Destruction
Jesus taught a complete destruction of the wicked when He said: "…fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt. 10:28).
Some have been taught that the soul is indestructible, and cannot die or be destroyed. The Bible is squarely against this for Jesus Himself said to "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body…" In other words fear Him who can destroy both life and body.
How will the wicked be destroyed? Read Psalm 37:20.
John the Baptist describes the destruction of the wicked in Matthew 3:12. Look that up now, as well as Mark 9:45, 48. From these two references some have concluded that the wicked will burn throughout all eternity; however, the Bible is its best expositor, and to understand its language we must turn to other references where the same word or phraseology is used as the one in the question.
In Jeremiah 17:27 we find a prophecy which reads: "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day,…then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof…" Note this fire: "and it shall not be quenched." In spite of this warning the people continued in sin, until at last we find the judgment fell on them and the prophecy was fulfilled thus. This is found in Jeremiah 52:12-13. The prophecy was given that this fire would "devour the palaces of Jerusalem", and this was with a fire that could "not be quenched". The fire which burned that day was "an unquenchable fire". It devoured the palaces and the houses, turning them into ashes. When the flames had done their work they went out of their own accord. Notice again how this was fulfilled in 2 Chron. 36:21.
According to these texts the fire that could "not be quenched" made Jerusalem desolate. Likewise the fire that destroys wickedness, sin and sinners will make the earth desolate of wicked creatures. In fact, there will not even be a "hell" full of sinners left, for they will be all turned into ashes and smoke (Malachi 4:1, 3).

Sorrow Will End!
In Revelation 21:4 we are told that sorrow will pass away. This verse is scene which follows the destruction of the wicked, and is a fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:13.
On the Isle of Patmos John sees "…a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" (Rev. 21:1). It was on this new earth that John saw there would be no "sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain." This could not be true if billions of people were in a burning fire, just hot enough to torture them, but still not hot enough to bring death.
If there were going to be, or if there were such a place as some picture "hell" then how would the people survive since it would be impossible to grow grains, fruits or any vegetation whatsoever. The saints are to plant vineyards and eat the fruit thereof, and also to eat of the tree of life, but nowhere are we told how the wicked would be fed in such a place as hell. They would not have access to the tree of life. Surely, the Lord would not be benefited nor would His name be glorified by the endless shrieks and cries of agony that would fill His ears for eternity. No Scripture tells us that the wicked are promised eternal life. Therefore we must conclude as the Scripture says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
The time is coming when every trace of sin will be forever gone and this earth will be the home of the saved. Read Psalm 37:10-11 and Proverbs 11:31."

It is way too late to continue like this. I will continue tomorrow or whenever I get the chance.

"Throughout your last reply, you constantly assumed that spirits can't die. That was the basis of nearly all your arguments. But Christ said in Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." So souls (i. e. the spiritual entity) can be destroyed."
You prove my point. God destroys the body and soul in hell (to be theologically distinct God destroys both body and soul in post-judgment hell ie lake of fire). But hell is described as eternal. So this destruction must be for as long as hell exists. God destroys both body and soul in hell eternally, for as long as hell exists. It is eternal destruction, synonymous phraseology as eternal damnation. Does destroy mean not exist? No, because if we no longer exist, there is no longer any purpose for hell. But since hell is eternal, the punishment (destruction, damnation, death) is also eternal.

"BTW: you are being inconsistent as well, for a few replies up you said these exact words: "…we were spiritually dead before we were in hell? Yes." You said that spiritual death can happen, now you are saying it cannot? This is very inconsistent."
I was saying that in Ephesians, the text I quoted cannot mean spiritual non-existence. Spiritual death means that we are dead to God; darkness fills our souls. The text says, "you were dead in your trespasses and sins". If we interpret death in this text as physical nonexistence, it makes no sense. If we interpret death to mean spiritual nonexistence, it also makes no sense. Our deadness is spiritual, but is not nonexistence. So in other cases where we read that God is able to destroy our souls in hell (kill them) we must interpret it in light of this text. Not as spiritual nonexistence, but as spiritual separation from the light and life only to be had in God.

""Was the rich man conscious in Hades (hell)? Yes. He was able to ask Abraham and Lazarus questions. He was conscious." But the Bible does not say that his consciousness was eternal."
But if hell is eternal, the punishment therein also must be eternal.

""It doesn't use the words "conscious eternal torment". Doesn't mean that it isn't there." I agree, but the ideas behind unconditional immortality aren't really there either, if you search the Scriptures thoroughly."
I think that the puritans and reformers searched the Scriptures more thoroughly than you or I have done. And they have consistently taught the eternality of hell, as well as that hell is conscious torment.

""""…the texts that you mentioned that bear the phrase "eternal damnation" are NOT prophecy…" Okay, so what is the definition of prophecy? "A prediction of the future" is what it means. That is exactly what those references are. Those references may not be in "books of prophecy", but there is actually prophecy in almost every book of the Bible."
Okay. What I meant by prophecy is that Isaiah is not being strictly literal. The other texts ARE LITERAL. We can't interpret a literal text that has the same word as a non-literal text in the same way. If we define eternal merely to mean significant, then eternal life is only a figure of speech. If you are willing to redefine the word eternal/everlasting in context with the word damnation, then you should be will to do the same thing in context with the word life." This argument (actually a continuation of the argument in your previous post) is circular. It assumes the same thing it is trying to prove, namely, that the other texts are literal. As a circular argument, it doesn't prove anything."
That argument is circular? "If you are willing to redefine eternal in reference to damnation, you should also be willing to redefine eternal in reference to life." That is circular?

""…even annihilation is torment. It is separation from God, and separation from God is torment. Annihilation is eternal torment." Okay, if the argument above is sound (which I am doubtful of), then I agree that God does give "eternal torment" to unbelievers in that, and only that, sense."
That argument is not really sound (on second thought) because if we do not exist (are annihilated) then we won't be there to feel the torment that separation from God is.

""""Romans 6:23: "… the gift of God is eternal life…" If this is true, why do all spirits of men have eternal life already, whether they believe in God or not?"" All spirits of men don't have eternal life. All spirits of men live forever. There is a BIG difference. Eternal life is ALWAYS used in reference to salvation. Everlasting life doesn't just mean that you will live forever. That is true of all souls. It means much more than that. It means that you will be perfect. The unsaved in hell don't have everlasting life, they have everlasting damnation! All spirits of men life forever, some in everlasting life, some in everlasting damnation." This argument seems to me purely arbitrary and is also circular."
Show me how it is arbitrary. Show me how it is circular. Don't just blow that off as arbitrary and circular reasoning.
The phrase eternal life is ALWAYS in reference to the effect of having been saved. So the damned DO NOT have eternal life. They will exist forever (in a state of damnation), but they will not have eternal life.

""Two Deaths
The Bible teaches two deaths. One is the natural death when we cease to breathe and fall asleep, as did Lazarus. (See John 11:11-14.) Then the body is placed in the grave and there awaits "…the voice of the archangel and…the trump of God…" (1 Thess. 4:16)
The other death is called the "second death" (Rev. 2:11). It takes place after the thousand-year reign of the saints on earth with Christ. (See Rev. 20:4-5; also Rev 5:10.) Furthermore we read, "…He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death" (Rev. 2:11). More is said about the second death in Rev. 21:8. Even the devil will not be able to survive when God decides to call a halt to sin and sinners.
Notice 2 Peter 3:7-13, which in part reads: "…the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved…the elements shall melt with fervent heat. Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness."
That fire will be much hotter and more destructive than most preachers believe today. Many are teaching that the fires of hell will only torture the wicked while the Bible teaches they shall be burned up and nothing left of them."
The elements being melted with fervent heat, and the earth being burned and also the works therein is talking about the renovation of the fallen universe. It is not talking about hell. Nothing shall be left of the old earth and the old heavens, but they shall be replaced with the new heavens and the new earth.
The second death takes place after Christ returns to judge the world, not after the millennial reign (which will never happen, BTW; that could spark another conversation, but let's keep things as they are for now), and is referring to when all those who reject and disobey God will be thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is hell. They will be thrown into hell. What does that prove for annihilation-ism?

"Complete Destruction
Jesus taught a complete destruction of the wicked when He said: "…fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell (Matt. 10:28).
Some have been taught that the soul is indestructible, and cannot die or be destroyed. The Bible is squarely against this for Jesus Himself said to "fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body…" In other words fear Him who can destroy both life and body.
How will the wicked be destroyed? Read Psalm 37:20.
John the Baptist describes the destruction of the wicked in Matthew 3:12. Look that up now, as well as Mark 9:45, 48. From these two references some have concluded that the wicked will burn throughout all eternity; however, the Bible is its best expositor, and to understand its language we must turn to other references where the same word or phraseology is used as the one in the question.
In Jeremiah 17:27 we find a prophecy which reads: "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day,…then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof…" Note this fire: "and it shall not be quenched." In spite of this warning the people continued in sin, until at last we find the judgment fell on them and the prophecy was fulfilled thus. This is found in Jeremiah 52:12-13. The prophecy was given that this fire would "devour the palaces of Jerusalem", and this was with a fire that could "not be quenched". The fire which burned that day was "an unquenchable fire". It devoured the palaces and the houses, turning them into ashes. When the flames had done their work they went out of their own accord. Notice again how this was fulfilled in 2 Chron. 36:21.
According to these texts the fire that could "not be quenched" made Jerusalem desolate. Likewise the fire that destroys wickedness, sin and sinners will make the earth desolate of wicked creatures. In fact, there will not even be a "hell" full of sinners left, for they will be all turned into ashes and smoke (Malachi 4:1, 3)."
Again, you use prophecy to interpret non-prophetic texts. But the prophecy still supports the Biblical view of hell, for it says that the flames (the result of disobedience) will never be quenched. The physical fulfillment of this is the destruction of Jerusalem. The spiritual fulfillment of this text is the destruction of the wicked in hell. Those flames will NEVER be quenched. What is not true of the physical fulfillment IS true of the spiritual fulfillment, which is why such language is used. Also, God can destroy both body and soul in hell, but that does not mean that they will cease to exist.
You seemed to indicate that the wicked will be burned up and cease to exist when this fallen universe is destroyed. But a text that refutes that directly is Revelation 20:15 "And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." If they were destroyed with the fallen universe, they couldn't be thrown into the lake of fire.

"Sorrow Will End!
In Revelation 21:4 we are told that sorrow will pass away. This verse is scene which follows the destruction of the wicked, and is a fulfillment of 2 Peter 3:13.
On the Isle of Patmos John sees "…a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea" (Rev. 21:1). It was on this new earth that John saw there would be no "sorrow nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain." This could not be true if billions of people were in a burning fire, just hot enough to torture them, but still not hot enough to bring death.
If there were going to be, or if there were such a place as some picture "hell" then how would the people survive since it would be impossible to grow grains, fruits or any vegetation whatsoever. The saints are to plant vineyards and eat the fruit thereof, and also to eat of the tree of life, but nowhere are we told how the wicked would be fed in such a place as hell. They would not have access to the tree of life. Surely, the Lord would not be benefited nor would His name be glorified by the endless shrieks and cries of agony that would fill His ears for eternity. No Scripture tells us that the wicked are promised eternal life. Therefore we must conclude as the Scripture says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him" (John 3:36).
The time is coming when every trace of sin will be forever gone and this earth will be the home of the saved. Read Psalm 37:10-11 and Proverbs 11:31.""
Sorrow shall end ONLY for the righteous. ONLY for those reigning with Christ over the new heavens and new earth. ONLY for those who have been granted eternal life. One text you provided was John 3:36 " He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God ABIDETH on him. According to annihilationism, we will cease to exist after a short time in hell. On those lines, God's wrath cannot abide (literally meaning to abide on continually) on things that don't exist. Souls must continue to exist in hell, or else God's wrath cannot continue to abide on them. Remember that God's wrath is one of his attributes, as much an attribute as love. God's attribute of love will never cease, and thus we must conclude that his wrath must never cease as well, or else we would make an attribute of God cease to be, and thus his character would change, and He would cease to be God. His wrath is eternal. And if his wrath abides on those who do not believe, that abiding wrath will also be eternal. God cannot have wrath toward a nonexistent object.

Here is an argument against annihilation-ism.
God's justice is… just that: just.
If a person is an outright sinner, doing all the worst possible things all his life, he will suffer a greater punishment in hell for those sins than a relatively moral, upright (yet unsaved) person. Just as an earthly judge will not give the same punishment for two crimes of differing seriousness, so also certain sins are more heinous in God's sight than others. If you believe that the flat rule is that all men are annihilated, soul and body, and totally cease to exist, then that repudiates God's justice entirely, for each man will not receive according to his works. If I believe as you do, no matter what I do here on earth, if I am not saved, the result is still the same: total cessation of existence. This is not justice. God cannot judge all men alike, for all men have not acted alike.
Annihilation-ism destroys God's justice, and thus destroys God himself, for no attribute of God can cease to exist without God himself ceasing to be God. God cannot change without ceasing to be God. His justice must be satisfied.

What doesn't make sense in all of this is how easily Mr. Minica so readily embraces eternal life, which is the most undeserving part of all of this. It would seem more logical to believe that God would make heaven a brief experience since none of us does anything to deserve 5 minutes in heaven, let alone an eternity! Think about that!

That's how we can understand God to be a loving God.

It is an audacious, boderline-arrogant, thing to question God and His being loving when daring to question the eternality of hell, a much more logically deserving fate for all men! Such a question doesn't make God squirm or put Him on the defensive; it reveals a clear misunderstanding of man's total depravity and God's infinite attribute of being a just God!

The easier argument of injustice could be made against God if someone would charge that it's not fair that God would give an eternity of heaven to a wretched sinner. But no one would do that, because man natively thinks too highly of himself, and, therefore, doesn't find an eternity of undeserved bliss any kind of injustice! YET that same man will think an eternity of everlasting torment is unfair, in spite of man's total depravity, God's perfect holiness, and sin's eternal offense and eternal penalty. Based on Scripture, the former scenario is seemingly much more unfair and unjust than the latter.

Two equations:

1) Not-so-wretched man + not-so-holy God + not-such-a-big-deal sin = brief torment in hell

2) Totally depraved man + supremely holy God + sin as cosmic treason = eternal torment in hell

Which equation fits the Biblical narrative the best? (Your selection reveals a lot about your theology on God, man, sin, heaven, and hell.)

Matthew, it seems that, since you think our arguments are circular, you are not paying attention to them in full. We are saying that annihilation, in the sense you put it, is complete injustice on God's part, since sinners sinning against an eternal God deserve an eternal punishment, no matter how large the sin. As Octo said, if God annihilates anyone, He is unjust; if He is unjust, He ceases to be God; if He ceases to be God, then… well, we don't have a true God, and our faith is worthless! But God does eternally punish the wicked, so He is just. We cannot change that message based on the complaints of ATHEISTS! Please do not ignore this argument of justice and simply misconstrue more verses. Tell me how a just God could not send someone to eternal hell while maintaining His justice. Yes, He is merciful as well. But His mercy does not override His justice. Just because you don't feel comfortable thinking about an eternal hell does not mean that it does not exist.

Please do not say again that we have not given you any arguments. This argument of God's justice should be enough. If you want us to explain each and every verse you bring up, we will do it. But please don't say we haven't given an argument.

Thanks for understanding.

SBG

And another argument against conditional immortality:
Jesus Christ died on the cross and thereupon took the punishment of his already-redeemed or later-to-be-redeemed people. If this punishment was going to be a brief time in hell, and then a cessation of existence, we can say that Jesus Christ (who was both God and man) ceased to exist at a certain point after his death, because He took that punishment upon himself. GOD CEASE TO EXIST? THAT CANNOT BE!
But yet by teaching that sinners will simply become nothing after a short time in hell, you necessarily also teach, though maybe you have never brought it to this logical and necessary conclusion, that Jesus Christ ceased to exist, that God ceased to exist, because Jesus DID take the FULL punishment of the sins of his people upon him. If that full punishment is annihilation, then you teach that the second person of the trinity, God himself, was ANNIHILATED!! That is not good grounds to be on. There is NO WAY POSSIBLE that God can cease to exist!
Do you realize the seriousness of this error?

Another thing, if I am just going to cease to exist after a brief period of torment, then I have no incentive to come to Christ. I mean, after all, if I'm just going to stop existing, then I may as well live the whole hog here, because that's really what I want to do. I don't want to deny myself, take up my cross daily, and follow Christ, because that is hard work, and besides, I'm just gonna turn into nothing after a little while, so I may as well live like I want to on earth.
On the contrary, an eternal, conscious, hell puts fear in the hearts of the wicked, the sinner. It puts a healthy fear of God's justice, and shows the sinner just how bad his sin really is in the sight of God. It brings him to his knees, for he knows that unless God has mercy upon him, he is headed for that very place. Now of course, that response is one where the Spirit is involved. Otherwise, people mock it, say that God would be cruel to do it, and etc. because they do not understand the wisdom, holiness, or justice of God, neither the serious nature of their sin. A biblical hell will show sinners their inability to save themselves, and the teaching of an eternal, conscious, hell, in conjunction with the teaching of God's gracious Gospel, is powerful stuff. I'm telling you, you see God's love and grace in a whole different way if you know what you really deserve.
Please think about it.

I'm not sure about taking the "Jesus ceased to exist" path as a better argument than just stating it this way:

So, Almighty God became despicable man, leaving all the splendor and benefits of heaven, and lived 33 human years, daily experiencing hunger, thirst, pain, and sickness, and later rejection, desertion, and ongoing death threats, to die an excruciating death of the most heinous form of capital punishment at the hands of a pagan government and religious leaders among His countrymen…

– all to save some people from a brief stay in hell??

Why would He do that? And why would anyone care to believe in Someone who would go to all that cosmic trouble for something so insignificant to escape?

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow (and only tomorrow) we die.

Whooptee-doo!

[That's not a hell I would ever fear nor want to escape.]

The arguments concerning justice that you all are using are not based on Scripture (and obviously so, since you didn't reference any verses). I ask again, where in the Bible does it say that sin deserves eternal, conscious punishment? Enlighten me, because I can't find it.

"Totally depraved man + supremely holy God + sin as cosmic treason = eternal torment in hell" I do believe that man is totally depraved by his sin, which is cosmic treason, and only the supremely holy God can save him. But I do NOT believe in eternal torment in hell.

"And why would anyone care to believe in Someone who would go to all that cosmic trouble for something so insignificant to escape?" Excuse me? Torture by fire and knowing that the saved are enjoying eternal life is insignificant?

"And another argument against conditional immortality:
Jesus Christ died on the cross and thereupon took the punishment of his already-redeemed or later-to-be-redeemed people. If this punishment was going to be a brief time in hell, and then a cessation of existence, we can say that Jesus Christ (who was both God and man) ceased to exist at a certain point after his death, because He took that punishment upon himself. GOD CEASE TO EXIST? THAT CANNOT BE!
But yet by teaching that sinners will simply become nothing after a short time in hell, you necessarily also teach, though maybe you have never brought it to this logical and necessary conclusion, that Jesus Christ ceased to exist, that God ceased to exist, because Jesus DID take the FULL punishment of the sins of his people upon him. If that full punishment is annihilation, then you teach that the second person of the trinity, God himself, was ANNIHILATED!! That is not good grounds to be on. There is NO WAY POSSIBLE that God can cease to exist!
Do you realize the seriousness of this error?"
This argument would probably convince me if it were not that it touches on another subject I disagree with most Christians on: WHEN humans go to heaven or hell. I believe that after death, all humans stay in the grave until the resurrection, when they will be judged… but this is a completely different topic and I don't want to debate two things at one time.

"Whooptee-doo! [That's not a hell I would ever fear nor want to escape.]"
"Another thing, if I am just going to cease to exist after a brief period of torment, then I have no incentive to come to Christ. I mean, after all, if I'm just going to stop existing, then I may as well live the whole hog here, because that's really what I want to do. I don't want to deny myself, take up my cross daily, and follow Christ, because that is hard work, and besides, I'm just gonna turn into nothing after a little while, so I may as well live like I want to on earth."
Do that if you want to, but I would much rather have my sins forgiven and go to heaven, instead of suffering conscious burning torment in hell. I do not argue that sinners will not suffer burning torment; I argue that it will not be eternal.

"Please do not say again that we have not given you any arguments. This argument of God's justice should be enough. If you want us to explain each and every verse you bring up, we will do it. But please don't say we haven't given an argument."
I've read each and every one of your arguments. There are two problems with them: (1) Some of them are not based on Scripture, and (2) the ones of them that are, the Scriptures given to support those arguments can be interpreted differently as you will see whenever I get to typing the rest of those tracts.

Matthew, when you say our argument about justice is not based on Scripture, you are mostly right. We get our understanding that God is perfectly holy and perfectly just from the Bible, but the rest is purely logic. God would be unholy and unjust if He did not send sinners to eternal hell. You would argue that that punishment seems unfair in itself, but, as we have been saying, based on the Bible and logic, it is very fair. One sin can send us to eternal hell, since it, however finite it may be, is against an infinite God. This logic leads us to conclusions that are backed up by Scripture.

Since you are challenging us with giving you more Scripture, please give us some Scripture that supports your view. Yes, you did already, but when we take those verses at face value, like we should with most Scripture (though we have to carefully interpret things such as prophecy), they seem to clearly indicate that hell is eternal! Your view seems like it does not fit with what the Bible says. Please reiterate your view using Scripture, please.

Mark 3:29–
"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of ETERNAL DAMNATION."

Hebrews 6:2–
"Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of ETERNAL JUDGMENT."

Jude 1:7–
"Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of ETERNAL FIRE."

What else could these mean than what they plainly say? The word for "eternal" is the same in these verses as it is in verses about "eternal life." How can you say that the saved can have eternal life when the unsaved have a brief torment? Why not say that the saved only enjoy heaven for a little while as well? Yes, this is completely ridiculous, but it is the logical conclusion your view can easily lead to. Please consider.

Hello all. I'm glad this discussion can be had and hope we can have it in a civil and friendly way, though the subject is terrifying.

I see "eternal life" and "eternal death" in Scripture. From what I see, "eternal life" doesn't refer to an eternally sealed state where "time shall be no more" (even though a hymn says that) and "eternal death" doesn't mean an eternally ended state where torment and suffering cease. Rather, I see both as everlasting, never-ending, conscious experiences.

(Side note: Matthew, do you believe there will be time in heaven? I would be happy to explain what I mean by that if you'd like. I'm trying not to make too many assumptions….)

Matthew - You have some great points about John 3:16 and Romans 6:23. I see your argument and think I understand what you're saying. You are pointing out that "eternal life" would seem to be just eternal existence, and therefore if someone doesn't have "eternal life" they don't exist eternally (or "for ever").

So because "Scripture interprets Scripture," we have to look at other verses to see what eternal life is and what eternal death is.

In John 17:3, Jesus prays, "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." So eternal life is knowing God. Forever, we might add. Eternal life is the only life worth living. It's the life of the Christian now and more fully in heaven. Amazing!

On the other side of things, when I see verses like Revelation 14:11, I am convinced there is an eternal opposite to this. I know you see that too, but not in the same way. You see it as an eternal lack of existing. I see it as an eternal existing in a terrible place. I see it as primarily not knowing God and his grace. And having to reckon with that forever under his wrath….

When Revelation 14:11 says "no rest," I think that implies that there is no end to the conscious experience of suffering, even though those suffering wish there was rest. What else could it mean? Considering the verses where Jesus speaks of "everlasting punishment," I think I am justified in saying that. In fact, I think that ceasing to exist would be rest.

Also, just to try addressing your question about 1 Cor 15, I believe Paul is saying that the body (which is mortal) will be clothed with immortality. But I believe that the spirit is already immortal.

When the Scriptures are hard to understand (and they are at points, or else it wouldn't be God's book!), I think we have to take what seems crystal clear and obvious and see if we can make sense of what is tricky. That's what I am trying to do now.

So, Matthew, please let me know if you see any inconsistencies in what I've said or have passages that haven't been explained from the eternal conscious torment point of view. Again, sorry I'm jumping into this a bit late. Thanks for being willing to discuss!

P.S. One of your other points was whether or not our views of hell effect our evangelism. For me, they do. I have been praying for one older man in our neighborhood particularly who doesn't know Christ and sharing the gospel with him, because I fear for his soul. I probably wouldn't be concerned about him if there was an end to suffering in hell. And yet I also know I'm not as concerned as I should, considering my convictions on this. Please pray for him and our family as we try to share the gospel with him. Thank you.

The theology of God, sin, man, heaven, hell, etc. are the culmination of several Scriptural passages, and I spared you all of the references that support the traditional views of these doctrines and just tried to appeal to the logic that stems from them.

If you want ALL of the supporting verses, I direct you, @MatthewMinica, to the 2nd London Baptist Confession of 1689, Chapters 31 & 32. The eternality of hell, in congruence with the doctrine of the eternality of heaven, has been the doctrine held by nearly all of the church fathers of the faith for centuries; and the Scriptures given in the Confession, as well as what's already been provided here, and also the ensuing logic that emits from these texts – all of these combine to make all other dissenting arguments fairly moot.

However, I will give you Revelation 20:10, 12-15 (KJV).

Unless you hermeneutically render from these verses that only the devil, the beast, and the false prophet are the ones who will be experiencing eternal torment, or if you have a new exegetical twist to make on the phrase "day and night for ever and ever" (which seems to me to mean, literally, day and night, forever and ever), I see no other way to refute the doctrine of the eternality of hell.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Bottom Line: The devil, the beast, the false prophet, and all the dead (small and great) from the sea, the earth, and hell find their final destination to be the "lake of fire," and verse 10 says they will be "tormented day and night for ever and ever."

How could this be any more clear?

Alex, good to see you join this discussion with a little more humble spirit! I need to take an example from you.

@Wretched Man: Eternity will have no night. These verses are in a prophetic writing and should therefore not be taken literally without studying them carefully first.

@SavedByGrace: I find it interesting that you use Jude 1:7 as supportive to your view. This phrase is not actually talking about hell, but the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha. What "eternal fire" means in this verse is "unquenchable fire". It certainly was unquenchable. But once the flames had devoured everything, they went out of their own accord. "In like manner" once hell has destroyed everything, the flames in it will go out.

I have wished for a proof. I have kind of been developing one in my mind… and I have finished it! Here is what I consider to be a proof against unconditional immortality:

Before I start the proof itself, I want to verify exactly what you believe. I see two slightly different "sub-doctrines" in unconditional immortality: (1) No punishment, no matter how long, will ever suffice for the sins of man against God, so God uses the closest thing to it, eternal torment in hell; and (2) The only thing that will be a just punishment for sin is eternal torment in hell.

So here is what Christians (and, I assume, you) believe: God created the world perfectly. However, the first man and woman sinned, which is rebelling against God (cosmic treason). They brought upon themselves, their offspring, and the world, evil, death, and the wrath of God. (Insert whatever you believe about the eternal hell here.) But God, in His mercy, sent down His Son, Who is perfect, to this earth to become a substitute and take our punishment. He spent three days and three nights in the grave. Afterward, he rose from the grave, defeating death. We who accept and believe this will be saved by the blood of the Lamb.

Wait a minute, do you see something wrong here? It is kind of hard to see at first glance, but there is something wrong with this. If you believe (1) then since no punishment will suffice for sin, no punishment on a substitute would suffice for it either. Therefore, we are not really saved.

If you believe (2) then Jesus, our Substitute, is still in hell and will be for eternity. He did not rise from the grave and His deity is brought into question. Also, since eternity never ends, then our redemption will never really be fully complete.

So the doctrine of unconditional immortality gives a serious challenge to the gospel and even our salvation!

I think personally that the proof should be enough, but if you want some supporting verses here are some.

Hebrews 10:27
But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Philippians 3:19
Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Malachi 4:1-3
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Psalm 1:4
The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Proverbs 10:25
As the whirlwind passeth, so is the wicked no more: but the righteous is an everlasting foundation.

Psalm 37:20, 22, 28, 34, 36, 38
But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
For such as be blessed of him shall inherit the earth; and they that be cursed of him shall be cut off.
For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off.
Wait on the Lord, and keep his way, and he shall exalt thee to inherit the land: when the wicked are cut off, thou shalt see it.
Yet he passed away, and, lo, he was not: yea, I sought him, but he could not be found.
But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off.

Job 11:20
But the eyes of the wicked shall fail, and they shall not escape, and their hope shall be as the giving up of the ghost.

Obadiah 1:16
For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.

Please consider these verses.

First, okay, I agree that Jude 1:7 was not the best passage to support our view, but please explain the other two passages that I gave.

Second, when did we say that no punishment will suffice for sin and that hell is "the closest thing to it"? If God gave us a punishment that is "the closest thing to" what we deserved, He would not be giving us justice, and He would not be God. How much more so with your view! We believe that hell, because it will last eternally, does suffice for the infinite offense of our sin. Jesus' death on the cross, through which He bore all of God's wrath, did take all of God's wrath (I believe that this was for His elect, but that's a topic for another place). How could all of the infinite wrath of God, which we certainly deserved, have been put on Him? God can do everything! Even something as hard to comprehend as that, God can do.

Third, we do not believe that Jesus went to hell, but that He suffered under all the wrath that we would have faced in hell. Jesus never went to hell. (And if you want to discuss that verse in 1 Peter, we can do that somewhere else.)

Fourth,

Hebrews 10:27–
It will devour God's adversaries–eternally.

Philippians 3:19–
Their end is destruction–eternally in hell.

Ezekiel 18:4–
Such a man's soul will die–it will be cast into hell, eternal death.

Malachi 4:1-3–
They will be burned up and will be like ash–forever in hell, eternal destruction (no, this is not a contradiction with "eternal death")

Psalm 1:4–
They will be like chaff which the wind drives away–God will drive them away into hell.

Proverbs 10:25–
The wicked will be no more–they will no longer practice their wickedness, and they will be totally useless, forever in hell.

Psalm 37:20, etc.–
The wicked will perish, be consumed, be cut off, be destroyed–in hell eternally.

Job 11:20–
The "giving up of the ghost" is referring to physical death here.

Obadiah 1:16–
Yes, they will "drink continually", as the verse says. Yes, they will "swallow down and be no more", continually. By your interpretation, this verse contradicts itself.

I agree with your entire sixth paragraph, but I do not believe what you assumed we believed. Thank you for taking the time to read this comment–and please tell me how you interpret Hebrews 6:2, Mark 3:29, Revelation 14:11, and why you blame us for using prophetic verses to back up our view, while you do the same with many of yours.

Gratefully,

SBG

@Wretched Man: Eternity will have no night. These verses are in a prophetic writing and should therefore not be taken literally without studying them carefully first.

Good morning, Matthew.

How do you interpret Rev. 4:8 and 7:15? Doesn't "day and night" there mean forever? Isn't that also prophetic?

Also, what do you make of the "forever and ever" part of the verse? (You only addressed "day and night." It's interesting that this is the only verse in Revelation that John adds "forever and ever" to "day and night.")

Let's pray for the a spirit of grace as we discuss these things.

EDIT: Quick note from G.K. Chesterton on humility:

"What we suffer from today is humility in the wrong place. Modesty has moved from the organ of ambition. Modesty has settled upon the organ of conviction; where it was never meant to be. A man was meant to be doubtful about himself, but undoubting about the truth; this has been exactly reversed. Nowadays the part of a man that a man does assert is exactly the part he ought not to assert–himself. The part he doubts is exactly the part he ought not to doubt - the Divine Reason. . . . The new skeptic is so humble that he doubts if he can even learn. . . . There is a real humility typical of our time; but it so happens that it's practically a more poisonous humility than the wildest prostrations of the ascetic. . . . The old humility made a man doubtful about his efforts, which might make him work harder. But the new humility makes a man doubtful about his aims, which makes him stop working altogether. . . . We are on the road to producing a race of man too mentally modest to believe in the multiplication table."

G.K. Chesterton, Orthodoxy [Garden City, NY: Doubleday and Co., 1957], pp. 31-32

With Chesterton's view on humility, I can honestly say that I don't understand how anyone can read the Bible and get the idea that hell is anything short of forever. I don't doubt that it is forever; it seems so plain. I do doubt whether or not I'm taking that reality as seriously as I should and pray I would be humble enough to live the implications of grace so amazing that it saves us from that eternal hell and gives us Christ and heaven forever!

@MatthewMinica: I'll only address what you addressed to me –

You wrote (in response to my breakdown of Revelation 20:10, 11-15):

"@Wretched Man: Eternity will have no night. These verses are in a prophetic writing and should therefore not be taken literally without studying them carefully first."

I'm sorry for any misperception you may get from my tone and response, but: Where in the world do you get this preposterous notion that because it's a prophetical book and passage that it can't be taken literally?!? That's an outlandish statement!

But, to be fair to you, let's put your hermeneutics to the test:

The Apostle John says that there will be no night IN HEAVEN, not eternity. He says prior to the passage that you allude to that those IN THE LAKE OF FIRE will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever."

So, you embrace his later statement that there will be no night (in Heaven), but you reject the earlier verse that says there will be day and night in the Lake of Fire, claiming that that passage should not be taken literally, while the other one should. Which is it? You can't contradict yourself, and still defend your hermeneutics. You're saying, on one hand, we CAN take John literally that there will be no night (in Heaven), but we CAN'T take him literally when he says there will be day and night in the Lake of Fire! You can't have it both ways.

Or how 'bout this one? When the Apostle John records in Revelation 21:18-20 that he saw this:

18 And the building of the wall of it was of jasper: and the city was pure gold, like unto clear glass. 19 And the foundations of the wall of the city were garnished with all manner of precious stones. The first foundation was jasper; the second, sapphire; the third, a chalcedony; the fourth, an emerald; 20 The fifth, sardonyx; the sixth, sardius; the seventh, chrysolyte; the eighth, beryl; the ninth, a topaz; the tenth, a chrysoprasus; the eleventh, a jacinth; the twelfth, an amethyst.

Is this to be taken literally? No! Not according to your rules. This is all prophecy, so it's up to your private interpretation that may or may not fit your presuppositions.

Do you see where I'm going here? Your dismissive response IN NO WAY rebutted my original post! All you did was force your private interpretation upon a passage that is to be, according to the established rules of Biblical hermeneutics (See Norman L. Geisler's "Explaining Hermeneutics: A Commentary on the the Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics Articles of Affirmation and Denial") taken at its face value, just as ANYONE would do with Revelation 21:18-20, as well as what YOU DID in declaring that there will be no night in eternity (which is NOT what Scripture says; It says there will be no night IN HEAVEN!) We can't know for sure if this extends to the Lake of Fire, especially when John says "day and night." It, of course, doesn't make sense that there'd be a revolving day and night rotation in the Lake of Fire; but that doesn't mean you can automatically strain out a whole doctrine that the Lake of Fire is temporal, especially when John makes it clear "FOR EVER AND EVER" (which you mysteriously glossed over and only focused on "night".)

Yes, there is tons of symbolism in Revelation, and many passages about dragons and four-faced creatures and large harlots sitting on many waters are symbolic of literal things; but hardly anyone disputes the clear teaching that the Lake of Fire will be eternal, which is why John uses the phrase "day and night for ever and ever." In your private interpretation, you don't like how that reads, so you make it say what it does not. You ignore "day" and "for ever and ever" and choose, instead, to hang onto a twig, attacking the word "night," and then contort other Scripture to make the unsupported claim that there will be no night IN ETERNITY, which is NO WHERE to be found. (In fact, if anything, since the Lake of Fire has been referred to as "eternal darkness" and "outer darkness," could it NOT be more easily argued that while it will be neverending "day" in heaven, it will be neverending "night" in hell. Makes much more sense than the doctrine you're contending.)

Bottom Line: Your response indicates that you did not read the Scripture-saturated 1689 London Baptist Confession's response, and you quickly dismiss my asserted Scripture passage using subjective, private, and improper hermeneutics to support your point. (And the other Scriptures you're using in other posts continue to reveal, NOT a well-studied rebuttal, but an ongoing misunderstanding of how to correctly interpret Scripture and of general theological doctrines themselves.)

Annihilationism has been debunked repeatedly over the centuries by men of the faith who should hold all of our respect and reverence for their prowess in tirelessly studying and knowing God's Word. To continue to hold to such an unScriptural doctrine, especially in the face of so many Scriptures that have been presented to you as desperate pleas to turn from your error, should make you pause (and I pray that you do), and ask yourself why it is that you continue to hold to such a doctrine that is not supported in Scripture and requires poorly utilized hermeneutics and erroneous bases of theology to be argued?

Martin Luther wrote hundreds of pages in his book "The Bondage of the Will" directly to Erasmus to refute Erasmus' hermenutical & theological errors. In the midst of those pages, he called Erasmus names that would be deemed as derogatory by today's standards, and spoke in tones that our pacifistic-leaning society (which shuns healthy debate and calls strong defenses of Biblical truths as mean-spirited and hateful) would find offensive. Many on the MemVerse blogs and forums have been unduly influenced by the culture's postmodernist philosophies, so I expect that my response will be unduly deemed similarly as mean-spirited or arrogant.

However, I call you no names, and my tone is one of defending the truth like a soldier standing alone on a hill defending his Master's domain. Is the soldier arrogant for defending what he believes worth dying for, even if others assert that it's futile or irrelevant? Is the soldier mean-spirited for using the sharpest of Swords to destroy encroaching attacks?

While we are not enemies in the least, I do refute your claims in order to help you along and to restore you to Biblical truth. Which would be more loving: to see a brother in error, but just remain silent and pray he finds the light? Or, to see a brother in error, and recognize that God uses proper confrontation as a means to correct and restore such brothers?

I ask you to take your own advice, and "study" my and others' responses "more carefully." I hope you will accept my word that you are not properly interpreting Scripture, and it's only making you contradict yourself, as well as expose your lack of training and study in this area. That is not to demean you; it is to point out to you what my pastor and other great preachers out there (i.e., Paul Washer, Voddie Baucham, John MacArthur) have lovingly done to me. It took me swallowing my pride, and rendering the text properly; and then, and only then, did I come to my senses, realizing the great error I was in in many areas. Did it mean I wasn't saved? No. It just means I was wrong in many areas in which I thought for sure I was right, but I had refused to practice proper hermeneutics prior to that.

The good news for you is that you are still very young, and can start on a better path now, rather than do what I did and wait until you're in your 30's before you humble yourself and listen to what trusted men so vigorously studied, compiled, and taught for centuries.

I appeal to these men and their writings; they were flawed men, yes, but they were used of God to advance His truths in the midst of so many errors.

@SBG: "Jesus' death on the cross, through which He bore all of God's wrath, did take all of God's wrath." This is like saying (you have heard the judge analogy before, haven't you?) that once a judge has given a prisoner (who has an immortal soul) his penalty, which we could say would be lifetime (eternal) imprisonment, if a substitute came up and offered to bear his penalty, the judge might say, "Oh, alright. You can go to jail for just a few years, but we will treat you much more horribly than we would treat him if he were in there for a lifetime." How can what would be eternal be put on a substitute in a finite amount of time? And if what you are arguing is true, couldn't God "compress" the punishment and only torment the actual sinners for a finite amount of time, too?

As for miscontruing verses, I believe that you are doing the same thing with each verse I gave you. These verses were never meant to convey eternal torment.

@AW and WM: You should be aware that in some cases, "forever and ever" in the Bible simply means "as long as the thing shall last". See Exodus 21:6, 2 Samuel 7:13, 1 Kings 12:7 and Jonah 2:6 for just a few examples. Couldn't it mean the same thing here?

Now we're getting somewhere.

@MatthewMinica: You referenced Exodus 21:6, 2 Samuel 7:13, 1 Kings 12:7 and Jonah 2:6 as "a few examples" where the term "forever" is used, but "simply mean 'as long as the thing shall last'."

Here are some observations just from these 4 references alone that futher reveal your hermeneutical approach and its flaws:

1) In Exodus 21:6, 1 Kings 12:7 & Jonah 2:6, the word "forever" is used, and a basic reading of these texts clearly indicates that "forever" does indeed mean "for as long as you live." Some other translations even goes so far to say "for the rest of your life," "as long as you last," etc. However, your citation of these texts and this correct rendering still doesn't take away from the eternality of "forever and ever," because even if "forever and ever" means for as long as you exist, we can still successfully argue that it means that they will "exist" and "last" for eternity in that state/condition.

2) The term "forever" is treated quite differently from the phrase "forever and ever" in Scripture. In every instance I found of "forever and ever," the text literally means, with unequivocal emphasis, to last for eternity, without end. Some passages will even throw in the "day and night/night and day" phrase to place the emphasis even further on the clear, neverending characteristic that this phrase is meant to convey.

3) 2 Samuel 7:13 is speaking of David's throne continuing through Solomon "forever;" and since Christ has His rightful claim to Israel's throne through the lineage of David, this verse aptly prophesies the eternality of David's throne through Christ's coronation as King of kings and Lord of lords.

4) Finally, in another instance from Revelation of the eternality of hell, I turn to Revelation 14:9-11. It's yet another instance of the consistently rendered as eternal phrase of "FOREVER AND EVER." It is very hard to interpret this phrase any other way, especially when all of its other uses in Scripture point to the same everlasting, neverending, without end quality that it is aimed to convey:

9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascends FOREVER AND EVER; and they have NO rest DAY OR NIGHT, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”

Even the rendering of the textual examples that you gave only bolster our doctrinal footing that "forever" essentially can mean "as long as something/someone lasts," which we would argue that just as the "first death" (physical death) did not destroy the body or soul, so the "second death" is an everlasting existence of torment and punishment. Also, the phrase "forever and ever," which you still have not formally addressed with other Scriptural support, continues to illustrate an eternal state, such as "And He shall reign forever and ever."

(Unless you're willing to start questioning that maybe Christ's reign will be brief or temporary as well?? It can't be different in different places, with the only determining factor being your doctrinal stance that must force the definition to fall in line with your beliefs, rather than your beliefs submitting to the consistencies of the texts across Scriptures. Are you willing to admit that your presuppostions are the sole determining factor in your textual analyses of the same phrases?)

I'm sorry, but how can't God put all of His wrath on His Son? Why is it so wrong to punish someone willing to take someone else's punishment with a greater punishment and a shorter time? And anyway, can't God do everything? Is such a thing hard for Him? And don't you believe the same thing–that Jesus was punished for a short time on the cross for a longer punishment? Surely you don't believe that the wicked will be in hell for only a day? Sorry, your logic is not making sense to me.

As for you saying that you are not misconstruing verses, but I am, look at WM's comment above mine. This shows clearly that the Bible does say, AT LEAST in one place, that hell will last for eternity, "for ever and ever," "day and night." Even if this prophecy was simply symbolic, why would he go to such an extent to describe something that will only be happening for a short time? I don't know about you, but if I heard the term "day and night for ever and ever" anywhere else, I'd assume the speaker meant "eternity"! So, if this is so, you are misconstruing verses, not me. And you have still not explained Hebrews 6:2 and Mark 3:29.

So, it seems that all the evidence is against you. Can you explain these things away? Sure, you can give more verses that seem to support your view, but the verses we have shown you destroy the way you interpret others. Your only defense right now is to show us how "day and night for ever and ever" does not mean "day and night for ever and ever."

@SBG: While I truly love your passion, tone it down, Cowboy!

@WM:"In Exodus 21:6, 1 Kings 12:7 & Jonah 2:6, the word "forever" is used, and a basic reading of these texts clearly indicates that "forever" does indeed mean "for as long as you live." Some other translations even goes so far to say "for the rest of your life," "as long as you last," etc. However, your citation of these texts and this correct rendering still doesn't take away from the eternality of "forever and ever"…" In Exodus 21:6, we conclude that since death takes place, a servant could not serve his master literally for ever, and so "forever" in this verse is not literal. In 1 Kings 12:7, again the people cannot serve a king once he is dead, so we conclude that "forever" in this verse is not literal. In Jonah 2:6, we conclude that because just four verses later into the chapter it says "it [the fish] vomited out Jonah upon the dry land", "forever" in this verse is not literal either. In Revelation 14 and 20, I conclude that since dozens of verses elsewhere in the Bible say, in one way or another, that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in misery, "forever" in these verses are not literal either. In all of these verses, "forever" means "as long as the thing shall last." As for the "day and night" part, how could there be day or night in a place that is described as "outer darkness" in three places in the Bible?

"However, your citation of these texts and this correct rendering still doesn't take away from the eternality of "forever and ever," because even if "forever and ever" means for as long as you exist, we can still successfully argue that it means that they will "exist" and "last" for eternity in that state/condition."
I assume that in this argument you are using the same presuppositions as in this quotation (from Octo): "God destroys the body and soul in hell (to be theologically distinct God destroys both body and soul in post-judgment hell ie lake of fire). But hell is described as eternal. So this destruction must be for as long as hell exists. God destroys both body and soul in hell eternally, for as long as hell exists. It is eternal destruction, synonymous phraseology as eternal damnation. Does destroy mean not exist? No, because if we no longer exist, there is no longer any purpose for hell. But since hell is eternal, the punishment (destruction, damnation, death) is also eternal." I never answered this, but I will now. "Hell is described as eternal." Actually, hell itself is never described as eternal outside of Revelation, which we must take carefully as it is a book of prophecy; the only thing described as eternal in relation to hell is the punishment of hell. What is this punishment? The Bible says in dozens of places that I've referenced that the punishment for sin is death. So my argument from Matthew 10:28 still stands: God can (and will) destroy both body and soul of men. "If we no longer exist, there is no longer any purpose for hell." The purpose for hell is not what you assume it is. The purpose of hell is to get rid of the wicked, as I've proved in my dozens of verses.

"Are you willing to admit that your presuppostions are the sole determining factor in your textual analyses of the same phrases?" Yes, I am. I take my presuppositions from the Bible. You have already admitted that some of yours DON'T come from the Bible.

@SBG: "I'm sorry, but how can't God put all of His wrath on His Son? Why is it so wrong to punish someone willing to take someone else's punishment with a greater punishment and a shorter time?" Eternity cannot be compressed. Infinity divided by anything, even itself, is still infinity. This is a law of nature and mathematics which God created, and God cannot break His own laws.

"And anyway, can't God do everything? Is such a thing hard for Him?" I asked you the same question concerning God annihilating the wicked.

"And don't you believe the same thing–that Jesus was punished for a short time on the cross for a longer punishment? Surely you don't believe that the wicked will be in hell for only a day? Sorry, your logic is not making sense to me." I believe that the wicked will be in hell for as long as it takes for them to burn up and be annihilated. This punishment, because it is not eternal, can be "compressed".

"As for you saying that you are not misconstruing verses, but I am, look at WM's comment above mine. This shows clearly that the Bible does say, AT LEAST in one place, that hell will last for eternity, "for ever and ever," "day and night." Even if this prophecy was simply symbolic, why would he go to such an extent to describe something that will only be happening for a short time?" Why would Isaiah in Isaiah 34:10 go to such an extent to describe an event that was only happening for a short time?

"I don't know about you, but if I heard the term "day and night for ever and ever" anywhere else, I'd assume the speaker meant "eternity"!" I probably would too, unless that same speaker had used a finite term for the same thing many times in previous lectures. Even in today's English, "forever and ever" can mean "as long as the thing shall last". For example, "I've been waiting for him to come out of the bathroom forever and ever!" This is part of our everyday language.

"So, if this is so, you are misconstruing verses, not me. And you have still not explained Hebrews 6:2 and Mark 3:29." I believe I have before, but I will say it again. Hebrews 6:2, Mark 3:29, and any other verses you may give me are not talking about HELL, they are talking about the PUNISHMENT in hell (DEATH). Big difference.

"So, it seems that all the evidence is against you." You have discounted much of my evidence using your own presuppositions, such as, the souls of men cannot die. Given your two or three verses in Revelation (which can be interpreted differently) and my dozens of verses throughout the Bible, it seems that most of the evidence is against YOU, not me!

"Can you explain these things away? Sure, you can give more verses that seem to support your view, but the verses we have shown you destroy the way you interpret others." I say that the dozens of verses I give destroy the way you interpret the few verses that you gave, not the other way around.

"Your only defense right now is to show us how "day and night for ever and ever" does not mean "day and night for ever and ever."" Already done.

Your argument about Jesus not being able to take all of the wrath of an eternal hell in the 3 hours He was on the cross is flawed, because you believe something similar: that He took the wrath of an eternal annihilation for those who would believe.

Obviously, according to you, those who believe will not suffer an eternal non-existence, so that would mean Jesus took it for them. But according to your logic, this is not possible–otherwise Jesus would still be non-existent right now.