Immortality

Wait… so you're quoting Darwin to show that an everlasting hell is a doctrine we should reject? I could quote Richard Dawkins saying that the doctrine of a just God who would destroy whole nations in the OT is a doctrine we should reject.

And even in that quote, Darwin said what we've been saying to you all along: "the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe…will be everlastingly punished."

Nathan

@COS If you agreed with him ( Dawkins ) yes I think it would be fine to quote him but I'm pretty sure you don't :) Interesting things here haven't thought about this a whole lot.

Christian Alexander

Okay, I guess I was trying to make the point that I really do not care what Darwin said. :

The fact that he too rejected the idea of eternal conscious torment doesn't affect my position at all.

SavedByGrace

Thank you, Mr. Minica, for your gracious comment. :)

But I have to answer to those verses that you mentioned. I believe that you are not interpreting them rightly, filtering it through the rest of Scripture.

Matthew 25:41,46–The second verse in this passage could easily be used against your argument. The same exact Greek word, "aiónios," is used to describe both "eternal life" and "eternal punishment." So if you believe that heaven is eternal, then you must, to be consistent, believe that hell is also eternal. Verse 41 also uses the same word to refer to "eternal fire." Is hell eternal, but those who go there are not? Is God's wrath on those in hell not as strong as His mercy on those in heaven?

Mark 9:43-48–This passage repeats three times "where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched." Does the worm not die, but the people do?

Matthew 3:12–The fire here is called "unquenchable," and the Greek word for it has the same meaning. So, again, is the fire unquenchable, but the people there are only there for a short time? What is the point of an unquenchable fire if it is not consuming anything for most of eternity? You said here that "fire's main purpose is to consume, not punish," but if that is so in hell, how is it that "their worm does not die?" The people are consumed, but worms aren't? What?

Ezekiel 18:4,20,26–These verses say that a wicked man's soul will die. Yes, it will face eternal death in hell, as other Scriptures say.

Malachi 4:1–The arrogant and evildoers will be set on fire–eternally in hell. As Isaiah 33:14 says, "The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: 'Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?'" Yes, the fire is consuming, but it does not engulf. It is an "everlasting burning."

Matthew 10:28–God does destroy souls in hell, but He does not annihilate them. Hell is "everlasting destruction."

Romans 6:23–The wages of sin here is death, yes–but this verse is referring to mainly physical death and also everlasting death. Not an everlasting annihilated state. That would be injustice on God's part.

2 Thessalonians 1:9–Yes, they will face everlasting destruction, but not an everlasting annihilated state. The Greek word for destruction here is "olethron," which comes from "olethros," which means "ruin, doom, destruction." So, this does not mean annihilation, but everlasting ruin and doom–destruction.

Revelation 21:4,8–The word for "death" in verse 8 is "thanatos," which means, again according to Strong's concordance, "death, physical or spiritual." Of course, you can interpret this to mean annihilation, but I believe that, based on the rest of Scripture, it cannot mean this.

(The verses that you mentioned which I skipped were ones that were talking about eternal life, and do not exactly apply to our debate at the moment.)

And again, I will say that justice cannot be satisfied in a hell where people are annihilated. Yes, our sins are finite, but since they are against an infinite God, they deserve an infinite punishment. An eternal hell is necessary, even if it seems unfair to Charles Darwin.

Again, thank you for taking the time to weigh in on this subject. But I really think that you are interpreting parts of Scripture incorrectly by using the faulty logic that we do not deserve an eternal hell, or that God never intended for us to suffer eternally.

Octavius

Jesus took ALL our punishment. The Bible tells us that unequivocally. So if part of that punishment is annihilation, Jesus suffered that also. That is basically heresy.
The punishment, which Jesus bore COMPLETELY, could not, therefore, entail annihilation.
But you say 'How can God put an infinite punishment on Christ for a finite amount of time?'
My answer is that Christ is God. An infinite being can suffer infinite punishment in a finite amount of time, because He is infinite.
Infinite (God) punished with infinite (wrath) can take place in the finite (time).

Octavius

Here is some of what you said:
""To plan the perpetual suffering of others is not love. To determine endless suffering when it achieves no redemptive purpose is not mercy. To condemn any person to infinite punishment for finite sins is not justice." - http://cog7.org/BA/Tracts/AllTracts/WillGodPunishTheWickedForever.html"

Let's take the first sentence. "To plan the perpetual suffering of others is not love." You are exactly right. God does not love the wicked. He only loves His people.

Second sentence: " To determine endless suffering when it achieves no redemptive purpose is not mercy."
Again, you are spot on. God is not merciful (in hell) to those who have rejected His mercy. The wicked in hell don't deserve mercy; they don't deserve love. They rejected it, and will suffer the consequences.
(However, you could argue that preaching an eternal hell is a mercy, because it shows sinners the seriousness of sin, and enable them to see their need for salvation, and so puts before them the true nature of mercy.)

You must not divorce any part of God's
character from God. You must remember that God is love; AND (equally) God is light.
Eternal Love = Eternal Mercy = Eternal Salvation = Eternal Heaven.
Eternal Light = Eternal Holiness = Eternal Justice = Eternal Wrath against Sin = Eternal Hell.
The second equation is all too often forgotten or denied.

Now the third sentence. "To condemn any person to infinite punishment for finite sins is not justice."
Why is it not justice? Sin is not really finite. It is evil, infinite evil, because it is committed against an infinite God. Sin is committed by finite beings, yes, but sin itself is not finite. It is an infinite evil, and so deserves infinite punishment. Let me rewrite your sentence: To condemn any person to infinite punishment for infinite evil is PURE justice.

You also said: "One thing Darwin and I agree on, the predominant belief in unending torment needs to be corrected! "I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine." – Darwin"
Do you realize that Darwin is arguing against the truth and verity of Christianity AS A WHOLE!!!!!!! He was using the doctrine of an eternal hell (which, by the way, he says is the "plain language of the text") to show that CHRISTIANITY is not reliable. He was arguing against THE WHOLE RELIGION, against the WHOLE Bible!!!!! He was saying that since the "plain language of the text" teaches an eternal hell, the whole belief system of Christianity is to be rejected, because he found that doctrine personally objectionable.
Sorry if this is a little blunt, but Darwin supports us by this quote. He says that an eternal hell is "the plain language of the text".

You said: "The belief in unending torment (innate immortality) is only based on a few verses which are obviously misunderstood as they say something completely different than the whole rest of the Bible."

But you quote Darwin earlier as saying that 'unending torment' is "THE PLAIN LANGUAGE OF THE TEXT", which is precisely why he rejected Christianity. Even an unregenerate man could see from Scripture that hell is eternal. It's not "based on a few verses which are obviously misunderstood". Even Darwin knew that.
Sorry if I sound like a broken record.

Nathan

@HRBC'ers I am pretty sure that I agree with you all right now on this subject. Even though part of me does wish that hell was just a while even if it meant 10,000 years or a million years rather than eternity. It gives one an anguish in the soul for the unbeliever. And really puts some more power behind what Paul says when he states that he wishes that he was accursed for his brethren's sake in Romans 9.

Octavius

Yeah. I know what you mean. It really does put some "umph" behind the need to evangelize. Sadly, though, I struggle with lack of zeal in that area A LOT. If I went by my gut feeling, I'd agree with a temporal hell, but the very character of God himself necessitates an eternal one, just as his character necessitates an eternal heaven.

SavedByGrace

http://www.intellectualconservative.com/article3610.html

Almost an exact ditto on what you said, Octo. When we realize how eternally serious hell is, we should be filled with a passion for unbelievers to be saved! Unfortunately, I am GREATLY lacking in this passion as well. If this conversation has taught me something, it has been that I need to be more passionate in evangelization.

Wretched Man

May 15, 2012

Well, it's been a few days since I've been able to get back on here, and, my, oh, my! What a difference a few days can make.

First, I appreciate the tone of your post, Mr. Minica; and, no, I don't think Matthew offended any of us with his content or tone. I think the debate has been healthy, and has sharpened all of our minds in defending an area most of us probably take for granted.

Second, I gotta' love my sons' fervor in their responses! While they do make me cringe, at times, with their brashness, I have to admit that I know where they get it! (their mother)

Third, I made sure that I did my own investigative reporting and research before I would respond to your post, Mr. Minica, as the tendency on this blog, and others like it, is to run around in circles refuting the same points in different ways until we all get tired. Hundreds and thousands of pages have been written and hours upon hours of words have been spoken on both sides of this topic, so I like your approach of just providing links for readers to peruse themselves.

After both reading Mr. Boyd's views and researching him in general, I definitely have a better idea of where you and Matthew are coming from on many fronts, doctrinally & theologically. I will try not to spend too much time expressing my concerns about Mr. Boyd and his Open Theism; however, many of his beliefs are quite concerning, but they all help to make sense that he would embrace Annihilationism, too. I'm not sure where you stand on the other doctrines to which Mr. Boyd holds, but many of the statements Matthew presented in previous posts are almost identical to those posited by Mr. Boyd; and I must say that many of the texts and arguments presented by all of you present a low view of God and His justice, a low view of man's total depravity, and far too high a view of man.

Rather than try to contend matters point by point, I, too, will provide a link to, what I believe are, excellent refutations of the Annihilationist positions. While I've seen many other websites call Annihilationism a heresy, I'm not ready to go there; but I am confident in saying, as I've said in previous posts to Matthew, that the "doctrine" is rife with error and improperly practiced hermeneutics. I hope the following link demonstrates this more clearly than I have done:

I have learned that the professing Christian's journey is full of errors that we must correct along the way. I've had my share of them. However, if we continue to embrace them, in spite of loads of Biblical evidence and theological support to the contrary, we run the risk of suffering shipwreck. Unchecked and embraced error inevitably leads to further error and disintegrating theology. I share this as a warning, a warning that I hope any brother in Christ would share with me if I were in the same position.

Thank you for your time in pondering these things. I know that this "doctrine" is a tenet of your overall faith/denomination; but there should be no doctrine to which we hold that is exempt from the faithful scrutiny and refining fire of Scripture. As I have learned over the years, don't be so beholden to any doctrine that you make yourself blind to the clear congruence and logical continuity of Scripture. (I'm not saying that you are necessarily doing this, but it is a constant temptation for any of us who want to shore up the doctrines to which he adhere.)

I guess that's the final question I must ask any of you who hold to Annihilationism: What holds you back from believing in the eternality of the lake of fire and the punishment of those condemned to it? (As I said in a previous post, I believe your answer reveals a tremendous deal about your views of God, man, and sin.)

John project

Okay this is a big subject and because I tend to be long winded I will try to keep it as simple as possible.

First of all to let you know where I stand, I am a universal reconciliation-ist

Meaning, that I believe that everyone will eventually be saved and all of Gods creation will be eventually restored. But before I get into it to much I wanted to let the cat out of the bag.

The KJV Bible, which I love and adore, study and memorize from is not without its deliberate mistranslations in some words.

Think back on the Catholic doctrines of damnation’s and the church of England and their stranglehold on the souls of men. The doctrine of eternal damnation was used as a weapon to terrorize the poor and ignorant and extract from the populace, cash, taxes, favors,indulgences, political advantage, and compel them to come to church, their church, and when excommunication wasn’t enough they’d send in the Inquisition.
I personally believed that these words everlasting damnation were used to keep an oppressing thumb on the populous.

So the words in the Greek new testament where it speaks according to the English translation of “everlasting punishment” “punishment forever” “evermore” , “ever and ever” etc.
According to the actual Greek it says : 2Pet 2:17 to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for an age.

Jude 1:13 to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for an age.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to the age of ages.
And what age is that? The Golden age the new heaven and new earth. The age of all ages.

Ages have an end. The thousand year age of the millennium has an end.

Where it uses the word everlasting, mat 18: 8 the Greek literally means, age lasting fire or fire lasting only for an age of all ages.

I can't go through all the scriptures here but study for yourself s what the Greek says on these English words “everlasting” etc.

ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek ai?n ‘age.’

To presume to know the mind of God and say he can't redeem his own creation and bring it back to the way it should be, is saying God has failed. God is not willing that any should parish but that all should come to repentance. 1 pet 3:9

Its not all black and white and there are degrees of punishments as well… some with a few stripes and some with many.
Just like God has his reward system, not everyone will be rewarded the same.

To those who know their time-line, which is a topic for another discussion altogether, during the millennium there will still be unsaved on the earth which we will be ministering to.
At the final battle when the devil is loosed from his prison at the end of the millennium, deceiving those who still wouldn’t except Jesus even though he ruled on earth in person, and stupid enough to surround the camp of the saints God cleanses the earth and heavens from its pollutions, getting rid of the wicked as well, creates a new heaven and new earth, the mountains shall be made low,no more seas, greatly expanding the land mass for all its new inhabitants.
Down comes the New Jerusalem the heavenly city on earth.

The Age of all ages , Ding!

I know your gonna say I skipped something, and I did so for a reason, that is to get back to the point.
Between all of this there is Gods great white throne judgment where all the unsaved or those who have not received Jesus are come before God.
And the Books were opened…… more than one book is opened, plus the book of life was there, and the dead were judged out of these books.
Most likely they were being judged by their words and deeds according to their works. Both while alive and while they were dead so to speak.
God is not petty to just bring out the book of life and say ha ha oops, your not in it, just for the fun of it.
Obviously there were going to be some people who were in it and because God is the judge, he will decide what punishments are to be meted out and what their final placement will be in the age of Ages.
Remember when the millennium is over and the heavenly city has descended from God, that only the the saved can walk in the heavenly city
And we will be taking the leaves from the tree of life out to the people for the healing of the nations.
There will be kingdoms on the new earth who's people did not get saved in the age of Grace like as we did but nevertheless were redeemed and are still going through the process of learning and healing.

God doesn’t just punish for no reason or for fun, like the gods of the Greeks and Romans.
He chastises us that may learn a lesson and be better for it in the long run and if you take an honest look at you’re own life and actions you know good and well God is very merciful.

John project

Oop's My last post was not directed at you WM but I was just generally speaking. I just hit the nearest reply button.

Alex Watt

Hi John project,

What do you make of Revelation 21:17? ("But nothing unclean will ever enter [the New Jerusalem], nor anyone who does what is detestable or false, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.")

Also, my understanding is that the Greek is "ages of ages" not "age of all ages"….

John project

Hi Alex : ) I certainly agree with you. As I mentioned as well, that only the saved shall walk in the Heavenly city.

There is still a job for us to do as Christians,Thank the Lord!
Taking the leaves from the tree of life for the healing of the nations. Rev 22:2
I know I could use some make up time for all the time I've wasted or failed the Lord. I am glad that I will still have something to do.

Its obvious there are still going to be people who need to learn the lessons God wants them to learn right outside the heavenly city.
Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Were going to be kings and priest and rule nations with Jesus aren't we? Well, there has to be someone to rule over, right?

Our Job and training has not ended, at least not yet, I have a sneaky feeling that even some of us will still be learning how to love those we thought we could never love or training others too. Another one of my opinions of coarse.

I know I left some gaps in my first response, as it is a huge subject.

As far as the Greek, I most likely remember it paraphrased. I stand corrected.

But in my opinion, I personally think that the new heaven and new earth with New Jerusalem being present, a world without end, where time is no more, the tabernacle of God being with men, Jesus living among us and us with him, Creation fully restored and where nothing will hurt nor destroy… could qualify as an age of all Ages.

But that's just me. God Bless you !

Alex Watt

Hello John project,

Thanks for the reply.

Just curious: How do you know we'll rule over unbelievers in eternity? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't been in the Bible enough to come across that. I know that we will judge angels, and I assume some Christians will at least rule over other Christians.

My understanding is that God is not trying to teach lessons in eternity but settle accounts (Matthew 18:23)…. In eternity, Christians will be made perfect when they see Christ (1 John 3:2), but where is the Scripture saying that non-believers will also be made perfect (or even made better)?

And I also believe God will restore the creation, per Isaiah 65:17, Rev 21:1, Romans 8, and 2 Peter 3. But I don't have any reason to believe that all his creatures will be redeemed (unless there is a verse for that).

And I believe the people outside the city are in Hell (see http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/22/what-are-people-revelation-22-doing-outside-gates-/ if you would like more information on this view)…. One thing I just realized now is that just as 'hell' referred to a place for burning outside Jerusalem, so also 'hell' in Revelation 22 is outside the New Jerusalem.

And yes, I also believe the New Heaven on Earth will be for ever and ever (ages of ages), but I also believe Hell will be for ever and ever, outside the gates….

One thing that you and I agree on, though, is that there will be a new heaven and new earth, and I'm glad you believe that. Too many Christians think we're going to turn into angels!!

John project

May 18, 2012

Alex ,God bless you! I will try to answer these questions And I thank you for them. I knew I wouldn’t get away with this so easily. Lets try line by line.
And for the clarification , I am just sharing with you what I have learned and believe and am no way an authority on the subject.

Alex asks
“How do you know we'll rule over unbelievers in eternity? I'm not doubting you, I just haven't been in the Bible enough to come across that. I know that we will judge angels, and I assume some Christians will at least rule over other Christians.”

My answer: Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

2tim 2:12A If we suffer, we shall also reign with him-

Rev 2 :26 v-27 -26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
As far as Christians ruling over Christians.

Since Christ is our King and the king of kings I would think it would be an Hierarchy like those Kingdoms of old but better . But that is definitely my opinion. But whether or not I am right , there is definitely a chain of command and a throne and who will sit on the right and left of it is not yet determined.

Alex asks :
My understanding is that God is not trying to teach lessons in eternity but settle accounts (Matthew 18:23)…. John say's — Not sure what you mean.

(Next part of the question )

In eternity, Christians will be made perfect when they see Christ (1 John 3:2), but where is the Scripture saying that non-believers will also be made perfect (or even made better)?

1 John 3:2 is saying we will have the same kind of supernatural body or make up, flesh and bone of some sort, able to travel at the speed of thought disappear and reappear, disguise ourselves, fly, walk through walls etc, etc. whatever he's now made of, we will be like him. I can't wait.

As Far as the former non believers in the age of Ages, considering that the earth has been destroyed and recreated and and the Great White Throne Judgment has occurred and former unbelievers /People have been allowed to live on the new earth, and in what form of bodies, I know not, but they are not like ours, and not flesh and blood, supernatural? yes, but no way better. Paul Touched on the subject of the differences of bodies and flesh in 1Cor15, which I thought interesting

I will have to answer the rest of this in a another post part 2 cause I am tired.

But this question is easier and can answer it without to much effort:

Alex says: “ And I believe the people outside the city are in Hell (see http://www.epm.org/resources/2010/Feb/22/what-are-people-revelation-22-doing-outside-gates-/ if you would like more information on this view)…. One thing I just realized now is that just as 'hell' referred to a place for burning outside Jerusalem, so also 'hell' in Revelation 22 is outside the New Jerusalem.

John says:
I went to the site you referred to and found your answer. I assume you believe that Revelations is all figurative or at least most of it maybe not , I don’t know. Anyway,he say's
"Outside" in the Greek is #1854 in Strong's concordance which is from #1537 of the Greek. Look up both definitions as well as nations, #1484
also :
“If we are going to take anything literally about the Book of Revelation it probably should be the last two chapters.”

There are real people outside and kingdoms, and we take them the leaves from the tree of life for the healing of the nations. And they pay homage to us and we rule over them.

And by the way, Hell is gone at this time. Hell in the greek means Hades and Hebrew, Sheol or the unseen state, and that along with death was cast into the lake of fire and done away with.
So it can't be outside the gates. The gates are gates to be used as gate's.

Since my eyes are blurring, I will be back later tomorrow. Thank you and God bless you.

Wretched Man

May 18, 2012

Welcome, @JohnProject, to the forum. You've left quite an impression with your first few posts.

I just have one question for now:

Would you please provide Biblical support for the eternality of heaven, as well as any certainty that people will be around for eternity, either in Heaven or in the New Heaven & New Earth?

Thanks!

Octavius

May 18, 2012

Just an answer to the last part of your last post.
The lake of fire is eternal. So hell is still in the lake of fire, along with all the wicked who were put in it, and death, and whatever else was put in there.

John project

Hi Octavius, God bless you ! Yes, I do agree with you that the lake of fire is eternal.

Hell in the Greek means Hades or the unseen state aka the spirit world.

I would assume that because these two states: the physical life, which eventually comes to an end in death, and from that death, you enter in to the realm of the spirit or aka Hades or if you want to make it sound bad, you can call it hell.

I think you know where I am going with this.

Since there are no more people in physical bodies there is no more death, and because we all have our glorified bodies, there is no need for a spirit world or unseen state, aka hell.
So these states or dimensions have become obsolete in their functions and are no longer needed, and cease to exist.

Anyway, that's my opinion.

Maybe someone can explain it more coherently. But if you read it slowly it makes sense.

You guys are probably thinking “ what planet is this dude from anyhow? “

Something to think about.

John project

Thank you for the warm welcome Wretched Man, God bless you!

I enjoy your post and appreciate your sense of humor.

I was wondering if you could rephrase your request as I am not totally sure what you are asking me.

I'm guessing now.

Do you want me to come up with scripture that tells us were going to be hanging out with Jesus for eternity?

I mean no disrespect, as I am pretty dense sometimes, well most of the time really.

John project

@ Alex

I haven't forgotten to answer the last question on your list but will have to postpone it till later on.

Most likely tomorrow. Again.

I am such a slooow typist and most of the answers will be in scripture relating to universal reconciliation, as requested.

Octavius

No not at all. My real name is Martin (has something to do with Mars) so if you are from there say "hello" to all my friends and relatives. If not, oh well. You know, it's pretty hit or miss nowadays, what with the outdated messaging system we've used for so long (really needs updated, but I'm down here on Earth, so I can't fix the Mars-side receptors) ;-)

In answer, all men, whether saved or not, will, at the day of judgment, be united with their bodies. Christians will have their bodies glorified, and they will reign with Christ for eternity. The unsaved will not in any sense of the word have their bodies glorified, but they will nevertheless be united with their bodies. That's what the lake of fire is for. Hell was only spiritual. The lake of fire is physical. The fact that it was thrown into the lake of fire indicates that the post-judgment punishment will still be spiritual, (like it was from the time they died) but will also include the aspect of physical torment, because they are once again both body and soul.

Anyway that's basically what our Confession teaches (and Catechism) and I really trust the guys that made it. The Confession I referenced is the 1689 Confession of Faith, (if you want to look it up and see Scriptural support).
I don't have any direct links, but it shouldn't be too hard to find.
Oh, and I don't know about them saying anything about hell being thrown into the lake of fire, and that meaning that the punishment will be spiritual and physical, but it makes a lot of sense.

Wretched Man

Something like that, @JohnProject.

Basically, where, what Bible texts, can we find that the believers' time with Jesus will be for an eternity? How can we know for sure that heaven, and the New Heavens & New Earth will be eternal?

That's all.

John project

May 20, 2012

@ Alex

Here are a few of those verses on universal reconciliation. For a more thorough examination I would suggest doing your own personal research and see whats out there for yourself.

God may get mad sometimes and gets even as well, but he remebereth our frame, that we are but dust.

Lam 3:31 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:

32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.

33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

34 To crush under his feet all the prisoners of the earth.

We as humans tend to want to call down fire like the sons of thunder when we get offended or things don't go our way, or go pout because God didn't destroy Neniva.
Which is why one of the reasons I think,God can't trust Man with any supernatural powers, were to hard hardhearted and quick to judge and condemn, to destroy life rather than save it when our pride gets bruised.

We don't have the foresight as God does.

We just see the present and look through a glass darkly, and things are not always so clear.
Don't worry, everyone will get there just deserts, but that's God's business and he knows exactly what they/we need.

Verses……..

Act 3:21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

2cor 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

Phil 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Col 1:16-17
6 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

1 tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.

Wretched Man

Um, er, uh, Mr. @JohnProject?? Are you still out there?

All I ask for are Bible texts. Am I asking too much?

I just want to know where in the Bible I can find that the believers' time with Jesus will be for an eternity? How can I know for sure that heaven, and the New Heavens & New Earth will be eternal?

That's all.

His Servant

@Mr. Alexander – Do you not believe it, or are you just asking….?

Wretched Man

Shhhhhhh, Miss Pentimone.

All in due time. All in due time.

His Servant

http://www.reference.com/browse/annihilationism

Oops; sorry! quietly leaves room

Nelson Minica

May 28, 2012

Thanks for the link to Stephen Alexander. As can be expected with beliefs held for a lifetime, reading his thoughts did not change my mind. His rebuttal actually seems pretty weak if you ask me. :)

Yes, our sins are finite, but since they are against an infinite God, they deserve an infinite punishment.

The quote above is not something found in the Bible, right? I'm not too interested in extra-biblical logic but here is some for you: Once worms have finished consuming a corpse what do they have to eat? I've actually seen worms eating an injured animal there was no way we could kill all the worms, but just because the worms would not die did not make me think them something special. Once an unquenchable fire that firemen cannot put out runs out of fuel (house, forest, etc) what does it have left to burn? You believe in hell a worm takes a bite or the fire burns some flesh then the person is auto-magically healed so they can be bitten and burned again?

Eternal punishment does not necessarily mean eternal conscious torment. The death sentence is a punishment. It is also irreversible. Guess I should quote Greg Boyd:

Now, Scripture certainly teaches that the wicked are punished eternally, but not that the wicked endure eternal punishment. The wicked suffer “eternal punishment”(Mt 25:46), “eternal judgment” (Heb 6:2) and “eternal destruction” (2 Thess 1:9) the same way the elect experience “eternal redemption” (Heb 5:9, 9:12). The elect do not undergo an eternal process of redemption. Their redemption is “eternal” in the sense that once the elect are redeemed, it is forever. So too, the damned do not undergo an eternal process of punishment or destruction. But once they are punished and destroyed, it is forever. Hell is eternal in consequence, not duration. The wicked are “destroyed forever” (Ps 92:7), but they are not forever being destroyed.

The thought is that perhaps Darwin and many others might have become Christians but for the traditional belief in eternal conscious torment. Who knows?

Conditional Immortality is throughout the Bible starting in Genesis, and reveals a God of love and mercy who wouldn't want his creations living for ever in that state:

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

I just read this, was an interesting overview of the history of this minority belief:

Just started reading this, on page 15 so far, so looks like it will take me a while!

Talia "StoryMaker"

May 29, 2012

I'm just jumping in and I don't know if this verse has been brought up before, but:

Revelation 14:11 (ESV)
And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

With all due respect, may I ask: How can an annihilationist account for the above verse, which seems very blatant and clear in my opinion?

ps: You called the argument about offenses against an infinite God being infinite "extrabiblical", but it is based on the Bible, as the Bible does teach that God is infinite, holy, etc., and that He fairly punishes wrongdoing.

Also, I am only a young girl, so do not think I am trying to take authority over you. I mean everything I say respectfully and know that women are spiritually beneath men.

One last point: I think there's a pretty distinct difference between "eternal punishment" and "punishment with eternal consequences". The former refers to punishment that lasts forever, and the latter refers to punishment with everlasting consequences. I think there's a pretty big difference there.

Octavius

May 29, 2012

The traditional and biblical interpretation is that the worms are the consciences of men, not literal worms eating corpses. And secondly, the flames are fueled by the wrath of God. Because that wrath is eternal, the flames will be as well.

You are right, God does not, in his revealed will, want anybody to go to hell. But because man rebelled (God did not want that to happen [revealed will], but it did happen [secret, decretive will]), and because His justice demands infinite punishment against infinite evil, He will punish sinners in hell, and it will bring glory to Him, because it is a revelation of his full character, both Love and Light… Romans 9:22-23 "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory…"

The "destruction" of this text must be viewed in light of texts like those that Talia brought up, which show irrefutably that that destruction is eternal.

John project

May 29, 2012

He he he! O wretched man that you are.

I apologize that I have not gotten back to you sooner my brother, but I have been out of town this last week with very limited access to a computer,and have used my time for review on memverse.

But now I am back and will try to catch up.

Matthew Minica

@Octavius: I don't mean to be rude, but your post upset me so much that I just had to reply. "The traditional and biblical interpretation is that the worms are the consciences of men, not literal worms eating corpses." Seriously, where in the world did you get that idea? Here is a quote from my tract. I understand if you do not want to read all of this, but there is one paragraph that I especially want you to pay attention to concerning the worm. I will mark it for you.
"What Is the Worm that Dies Not?
Some have been puzzled over the quotation used by Jesus when He said, "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:48). Here Jesus was taking a common illustration and presenting to the a truth they needed to know. When He wanted to illustrate God's care He said, "…Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow" (Matt. 6:28). When Christ wanted to illustrate the love of God for sinners, He told the story of the prodigal son. So, one day Jesus wanted to illustrate the terrible results of sin in the life. He use an illustration with which they were all familiar. He took His illustration from Gehenna, a valley in Hinnom where they kept a fire burning day and night to burn up the garbage and refuse from Jerusalem. In order to fully understand this, let us read Mark 9:43, 47, from the Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament.
"And if should cause to offend thee thy hand, cut off it: good for thee it is maimed into life to enter, (rather) than the two hands having to go away into the Gehenna, into the fire the unquenchable, where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye should cause to offend thee, cast out it good for thee it is with one eye to enter into the kingdom of God, rather than two eyes having to be cast into the Gehenna of fire where their worm dies not, and the fire is not quenched."
Thus we see in the original the word "hell" is not used, but the translators used that phrase to express what they felt was a true rendering of the word Gehenna, because that place was a place of fire where the flames were continually burning up the rubbish and garbage. The carcasses of animals and bodies of criminals were thrown into Gehenna, not only to show to the living that sinners and lawbreakers came to an awful fate, but that they might be reduced to ashes, never to bother society again."

"The Illustration Explained
What Jesus was teaching when He spoke these words in Mark 9 was that the place of destruction for all sinners would be somewhat like the place called "Gehenna" outside Jerusalem. Gehenna was where the garbage and wast material from about half a million inhabitants was constantly being consumed or destroyed. It was a place of destruction, not torture.
The gray haired men who lived in that country had seen the smoke rolling up to heaven since they could remember, but no one ever dreamed of getting out there with the fire fighting equipment of their day to put out those flames. So it will be when God destroys this earth by fire, all the fire engines in the world will be unable to combat the flames. All the chemicals discovered by man, which work so well today, will fail in that great day. God has told us He will destroy the earth and the works therein by flame, and that this very earth when cleansed by fire will be the home of the saved.
The very best we can do is to live according to God's will; then when that day comes we may find refuge under His mighty wing. In that day God will protect His people as He protected the three Hebrew children who walked in a fiery furnace made seven times hotter than normal. They came out of that furnace unharmed and without the smell of smoke on their clothes.So God will wonderfully provide a way to preserve His own people in the day of destruction.
We know the flames of Gehenna are not burning today, yet they were not quenched, put out, or extinguished. The flames burned so long as any material was left in that valley to burn. Now this illustration of the fire in Gehenna is exactly the way the fire of God will be in the day of final destruction. Please read 2 Peter 3:10-13.
After the flames have completely purified this earth, consumed the wicked, yea, turned them into "ashes under the soles of your feet" then this earth will be restored, without sin, to its condition before sin entered the garden of Eden.
Now concerning the word "worm" in the Scripture." (This is the part I especially want you to pay attention to, Octo.) "Does it mean the "conscience or soul of man"? There is not a text in the Bible that says, "worm" means soul, and never in the English language has the word "worm" been given for the meaning of "soul". This has rightly been translated in some versions as "maggot", which of course could never mean the "soul" or "conscience" of man. Such worms, or maggots can be found around garbage after flies have had access to it, and to this Christ referred as He spoke that day.
All the trash and garbage that was thrown into Gehenna did not fall into the fire which was burned there. Some rolled to the side and was untouched by the fire. Christ brought out the fact that this was the place where the worms did not die, but were always at work. By this Christ showed the people that none of the garbage was left undestroyed; for what was not burned up was eaten up by the worms; likewise He was teaching that none of the unrighteous would escape destruction in the day when God cleanses the earth with fire. When the flame which God lights that day has done its complete work in cleaning the earth of sin and evil the flames will go out as surely as they have gone out in the rubbish heap near the city of Jerusalem. Jesus used this valley as an example and an illustration of what the future holds for wicked men and the lesson He wished to teach us is is unlearned unless we consider the complete illustration. When we use this illustration to prove the theory of an eternal, never-ending, everlasting hell for sinners, we are not being honest with His Word, for when the whole illustration is considered it show the very opposite is true.
Gehenna has burned itself out. Why? Because centuries ago they ceased to throw the garbage into this valley to be burned, so centuries ago the flames had nothing to burn and have long since died out. This is what the Bible teaches of "hell". This is what Christ taught while He was here among men, and since His word is dear to us we will accept it, believe it, and teach it in its full meaning.

The End of the Wicked
What is the final destruction of the wicked called? Revelation 20:13-14 tells us:
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell [margin, grave] delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."
From this death there is no return. One of our favorite Bible quotations reminds us, "…that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). There is no promise, no hope of eternal life outside of Christ. We are never told in the Scriptures that sinners will be given eternal life. This alone is the "gift of God", and He does not find pleasure in the death of the wicked, much less to give them this gift of eternal life, and then torture them in untold agony for eternity as is taught by some.
"The soul that sinneth, it shall die…" (Ezekiel 18:20).

A Warning
A serious question and statement is made in Nahum 1:9,
"What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time."
Praise God for that promise! Praise God for one day Christ will step forth from the presence of God and call a halt to the reign of sin! At that time there will be upon the earth two great groups. On one hand will be those who know Christ as Redeemer, Saviour, and King. On the other hand will be those who are destined to be destroyed. Root, branch, soul and body will be completely consumed in the fire that will be unquenchable. The Psalmist expresses it this way,
"But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away" (Psalm 37:20).
The wicked shall be like Sodom and Gomorrah upon whom was visited "eternal fire," they shall be turned into ashes, never to practice sin again. (See Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6.)
The wicked people will be so completely destroyed that Obadiah was led by the Holy Spirit to write, "…and they shall swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been" (Obadiah 16)."

"Because that wrath is eternal, the flames will be as well." "His justice demands infinite punishment against infinite evil…" You keep using those two arguments. Neither of them are found in the Bible.

In the Scripture you quoted (Romans 9:22-23), I noticed that it says "vessels of wrath PREPARED FOR DESTRUCTION". Don't you use that argument saying that destruction is an eternal process.

@Talia: That verse has been brought up. I will direct you to page 2 of this topic, starting with Wretched Man's 2nd comment on that page, to see the discussion of this.

Also, you said "You called the argument about offenses against an infinite God being infinite "extrabiblical", but it is based on the Bible, as the Bible does teach that God is infinite, holy, etc., and that He fairly punishes wrongdoing." I do agree completely that "God is infinite, holy, etc., and that He fairly punishes wrongdoing". However, I do not see how these presuppositions lead you to the conclusion that offenses against an infinite God are infinite. Can you please give me a logical sequence of Scripture verses that confirms this conclusion?

Erika

Matthew - your post brings up some excellent points about what Gehenna really means. In our modern thought patterns, we have construed our own theological picture of what we think "hell" means - a concept that is far removed from the true Biblical meaning.

Sheol (Hebrew) was simply the "realm of the dead."

Gehenna (Greek), as you mentioned, is the "garbage heap" or "garbage pit."

Hades (Greek) is the Greek equivalent of Sheol.

Tartarus (Greek) was where the angels that left their own estate were bound up.

Most of our modern conceptions of hell seem to have been made up, exaggerated, or misapplied.

I'd like to know, logically, how a place can have "eternal flames" and yet be "dark."

I'd like to know, logically, why the Bible keeps on talking about destruction and "the wages of sin is death" if the punishment really is eternal torture.

I'd like to know where the Bible specifically says humans are eternally tortured.

In Scripture, I see that the "everlasting fire" was prepared FOR THE DEVIL and his angels (Matthew 25:41). It is the devil who is tormented forever and ever (Rev. 20:10) - nowhere does Scripture actually say that people are. The everlasting fire is a realm in which the devil and his angels can exist for eternity - however, fire is not a realm in which humans can exist. Fire consumes people. It is like being thrown into the ocean - a person cannot survive. The ocean was prepared for fish. The everlasting fire is prepared for the devil. To enter the realm prepared for the devil equals destruction to humans.

By the way, the fact that the SMOKE ascends forever does not necessarily mean that the TORMENT lasts forever.

I'm not trying to advocate a specific viewpoint here - just trying to look at all of Scripture outside the box of theological training and the theories of mankind.

If we could read the Bible completely apart from what we have been taught about hell, we might very well view the concept much differently. The number of times "destruction," "destroyed," "death," and such concepts are talked about in reference to hell is indeed striking and worthy of careful pondering and prayer.

Alex Watt

Hello all,

If you have time, I'd like to know what you think of Jonathan Edwards on hell: http://www.jonathan-edwards.org/Eternity.html. Appreciate any thoughts.

Matthew & Erika - Sorry that I can't respond in depth right now; I'm preparing for an SAT on Saturday and should probably get some sleep… If no one else replies to you, I will try to get back either Saturday afternoon or early next week.

In Christ,

Alex

P.S. Erika, you said, "In Scripture, I see that the 'everlasting fire' was prepared FOR THE DEVIL and his angels (Matthew 25:41). It is the devil who is tormented forever and ever (Rev. 20:10) - nowhere does Scripture actually say that people are." My understanding of Matthew 25:41 is that the goats are unbelievers, and Jesus puts them in the place prepared for the devil and his angels. (They sinned before people did.) Matthew 25:41 in KJV is "Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." I know this is really hard for us to understand. It is for me too. But I really feel bound to what it seems to say so plainly.

Erika

I agree with your sentence, "My understanding of Matthew 25:41 is that the goats are unbelievers, and Jesus puts them in the place prepared for the devil and his angels." That is my understanding of the verse as well. I think you misunderstood my emphasis - all I was saying is that the everlasting fire is prepared FOR the devil and his angels - just as the ocean was prepared FOR fish. It is like saying, "Depart into the everlasting ocean prepared for the fish" - the people are cast into an atmosphere that was not designed for them. What happens when fire meets devil? The devil is tormented in the fire eternally according to Revelation. What happens when fire meets people? "Everlasting destruction" (2 Th. 1:9).

Theoretically, I could start a fire and keep it burning forever. That does not mean that anything or anyone that is cast into that fire will keep burning forever.

Again, I'm not necessarily trying to advocate a particular viewpoint - just trying to look at different Scriptures outside of all man-made boxes. I find many verses on this topic very revealing when I come to them without any presuppositions.

Besides that, it actually does not matter to me what hell is. I have no idea what it is like - but I don't want to find out and I'm not going there (wherever it is). It is not actually my jurisdiction to know; it is God's business. My business is trusting Him each moment - moment by moment through eternity, resting. :)

Talia "StoryMaker"

This isn't a full-fledged rebuttal of any kind, just something to think about:

Many of the people who are presenting pro-annihilationist arguments seem to be making the assumption that death as the punishment for sin signifies the annihilation of the soul. Sure, to most people in the world, death means the annihilation of the soul. But this is what the world thinks. Why should we assume that in Christianity, death means this? For believers, death clearly does not me soul annihilation. So I think it's making a bit of a logical jump to say that, when the Scripture talks about death or the grave, it's talking about what the world thinks of death.

A point to consider, at least.

Alex Watt

Erika - Talia makes a good point. What is the biblical concept of death? For instance, what does it mean to die when God says to Adam, "in the day that you eat of [the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil] you shall surely die"? Whatever death Adam got, it wasn't annihilation. It was a different sort of death that was a result of sin, just as Romans 6:23 talks about the same sort of death that was a result of sin.

And what is the opposite of death in Scripture?

Octavius

Colossians 2:13 "And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses…" "Dead in this text DOES NOT mean annihilated.
Ephesians 2:1-5 Continues the theme of death not meaning annihilation. "And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved…"
However you interpret that text, you cannot come away saying that the deadness it speaks of is annihilation. Can we safely assume that other places the Scripture speaks of death and destruction are not that way as well?

Erika

You are right - we should not define death as the world does but as God does. I nowhere defined death as annihilation. Dead means DEAD. Destruction means destruction. To perish means to perish.

Once again, I am not trying to advocate a specific theology on hell. I am simply looking at Scripture.

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die." (Ezekiel 18:4, 20).

"Sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:15)

"The wages of sin is death" (Romans 6:23).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8)

“Hell” is gehenna, which is a compound word of two Hebrew words: gay (gorge, valley) and hinnom, the name of a Jebusite meaning “lamentation.” Thus, gehenna is the word used in the New Testament to parallel the phrase in the Old Testament, “The valley of the sons of Hinnom.” The valley of the sons or children of Hinnom was the place where people “made their sons and daughters pass through the fire” to heathen god-kings (II Kings 23:10, II Chronicles 28:3, 33:6, Jeremiah 7:30-32, 32:35). God says of this place, “And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of SLAUGHTER: for they shall bury in Tophet, till there be no place. And the carcases of this people shall be meat for the fowls of the heaven, and for the beasts of the earth; and none shall fray them away.” (Jeremiah 7:31-33). Interesting.

John project

Okay, since were going around in circles on this subject. I thought it okay to re-post my earlier response with some add in editing. And since I have bad eyesight and am a very slow typer, I hope you won't mind.

First of all to let you know where I stand, I am a universal reconciliation-ist

Meaning, that I believe that everyone will eventually be saved and all of Gods creation will be eventually restored.

The KJV Bible, which I love and adore, study and memorize from is not without its deliberate mistranslations in some words.

Jude 1:13 to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for an age.

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up to the age of ages.
And what age is that?
The Golden age the new heaven and new earth. The age of all ages.

Ages have an end. The thousand year age of the millennium has an end.

Where it uses the word everlasting, mat 18: 8 the Greek literally means, age lasting fire or fire lasting only for an age of all ages.

I can't go through all the scriptures here but study for yourself s what the Greek says on these English words “everlasting” etc.

ORIGIN mid 17th cent.: via ecclesiastical Latin from Greek aion ‘age.’

Its not all black and white and there are degrees of punishments as well… some with a few stripes and some with many. (Lk 12:47-48)

Mat 11:22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you.

Mat 11: 24 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.

Just like God has his reward system. At the judgment seat of Christ, not everyone will be rewarded the same, some will shine as the brightness of the firmament, others as the stars, but some will be ashamed and held in contempt that they didn't do anything at all for Jesus (Dan 12 :2-3)

To those who know their time-line, which is a topic for another discussion altogether, during the millennium there will still be unsaved on the earth which we will be ministering to.
Then at the final battle when the devil is loosed from his prison at the end of the millennium, deceiving those who still wouldn’t except Jesus even though he ruled on earth in person, and stupid enough to surround the camp of the saints.
God cleanses the earth and heavens from its pollutions, getting rid of the wicked as well, creates a new heaven and new earth, the mountains shall be made low,no more seas, greatly expanding the land mass for all its new inhabitants.
Down comes the New Jerusalem the heavenly city on earth.

The Age of all Ages , Ding!

I know your gonna say I skipped something, and I did so for a reason, that is to get back to the point.

Between all of this there is Gods great white throne judgment where all the unsaved or those who have not received Jesus from all ages, come before God. ( remember there are a lot of people throughout the ages who have never even heard of Jesus )

And the Books were opened…… more than one book is opened, plus the book of life was there, and the dead were judged out of these books.
Most likely they were being judged by their words and deeds according to their works. Both while alive and while they were dead so to speak.
God is not petty to just bring out the book of life and say "Ha ha oops, your not in it" just for the fun of it. Why even bring it out if there is nobody in it?
Obviously there were going to be some people who were in it and because God is the judge, he will decide what punishments are to be meted out and what their final placement will be in the age of Ages.
Remember when the millennium is over and the heavenly city has descended from God, that only the the saved can walk in it. (the heavenly city)
And we will be taking the leaves from the tree of life out to the people for the healing of the nations.

There will be kingdoms on the new earth who's people did not get saved in the age of Grace like as we did but nevertheless were redeemed and are still going through the process of learning and healing. "And they all shall be taught of God"

God doesn’t just punish for no reason or for fun, like the gods of the Greeks and Romans.
He chastises us, that may learn a lesson. Has God ever chastised you for the fun of it ?
Heb 12 :10 No " but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."

I think when God meets out a punishment, its to teach a certain lesson that we would not otherwise learn. Not only for us but for all mankind.

A thousand years is a long time to be in "hell" the spirit world, the unseen state where the unsaved are learning their lessons whatever they may be.
A place that Jesus went to preach salvation to the unsaved/ the ones who never had a chance to except.

Ep 4:9 Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

1pet 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.

1pet 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Now you can believe that either all the lost souls who are now in the spirit world are either :

licking up flames and writhing in pain.
Being whipped all day and all night.
Being tortured by demons.
Maybe some of the above
Or believing that God has a bigger plan and is actually using this time to bring them to a true repentance from the heart, and teaching them something useful.

Anyone can say they are sorry while being tortured but will not always bring true repentance.
I believe that eventually that everyone will not only know God, but will love him as well.

Yes, there will be fire for some, but eventually when enough is enough, one by one, piece by piece all will be reconciled and all of Gods creation will be restored.

Alex Watt

Erika said, "I nowhere defined death as annihilation. Dead means DEAD. Destruction means destruction. To perish means to perish."

Erika - Can you define the word "death" in a way that fits what happened to Adam as soon as he ate the fruit and could apply to Romans 6:23? (Please don't define the word by itself.)

Erika

No, I can’t define death.
In Scripture, death is applied to many different situations:

Adam and Eve died when they ate of the fruit.
All people physically die.
There is physical “dying in Christ.”
All people are "dead in sin."
Believers are "dead to sin."
Paul "died daily."
"To die is gain."
We died in/with Christ. We are dead.
The gospel was "preached to" the dead.
There is death "in the flesh."
There is death of "the soul."
There is death "to the world."
Sin brings death when finished.
There is “dying in faith” (which causes me to assume there is “dying not in faith.”)
"Living in pleasure" is living “dead.”

Christ delivered us from “so great a death.” We had the “sentence of death in ourselves.” If we live after the flesh, we “shall die.” Whoever lives and believes in Him shall “never die.”

The Bible also talks several times about the “second DEATH,” which is for unbelievers.

“And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.” (Romans 8:10) – The body/flesh IS dead. The Spirit IS life – always. The only life we possess IS the Spirit. Those who do not have the Spirit never had and never have real life anyway.

Scripture defines death plainly: “The body without the spirit is dead.” (James 2:26).

Octavius

The whole Gehenna thing was a typical, physical reminder to the Jews of hell.
Just as the nation of Israel symbolized the church (the True Israel, Romans 9), and the sacrificial system symbolized Christ, and the whole Old Testament system was symbolic of greater spiritual realities, so also Gehenna, part of that symbolic system, is symbolic of something greater, more terrible.
The new, true Israel is better. The new Sacrifice is better. The reward (the Promised Land for physical Israel and Heaven for the spiritual Israel) is better/greater. As Hebrews states so clearly, everything about the new covenant is better/greater than the old.
And the punishment is greater.
Gehenna was a physical picture of hell for the Israelites. But because it was physical, it had obvious typical shortcomings. The shadow is called a shadow because it is a shadow. It does not portray every detail in exactness. But it does give us an idea of what the reality is like. That's what Gehenna does in respect to hell. The flames were (of course) not eternal, and trash being burned didn't stay there forever, and the worms did not live forever either. It was a physical type of hell.
The spiritual reality Gehenna typified is hell.
Hell is greater, worse. The flames are eternal (they are fueled by the wrath of God). The "trash" will also be eternally present. And the worms also, in Christ's own words "will not die."
Just as the reward for physical Israel (the Promised Land) was not realized forever, but OUR reward (heaven) will be realized eternally, so also the punishment of the second death will be eternal as well.
Gehenna is the type; hell is the anti-type. The first is the shadow; the second the reality.

About the whole death argument. Death in the verses I provided in my last comment cannot mean annihilation. So when the Scripture says "The wages of sin is death" and "In the day that you eat of it you shall surely die" I must interpret those texts to mean, not annihilation, but a state of spiritual deadness (not non-existence) before God. This state is similarly described as one of slavery to sin and internal darkness.
This state will not change in hell. The eternal death within hell is the same death as Adam's (you shall surely die), or as the deadness mentioned in Ephesians and Colossians (dead in sin). It is the same death, and it is NOT annihilation.
Matthew, you have repeatedly said that eternal existence is the same as eternal life. You have implied that by saying that all spirits (whether in heaven or hell) exist forever, that all spirits have eternal life.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Eternal life is ALWAYS used in reference to the reward of Christians. Eternal death (destruction) is ALWAYS used in reference to the reward (punishment) of sinners. All spirits of all men live forever (exist for all eternity), but not all spirits of men have eternal life. Eternal life is a special phrase only and ever having to do with salvation and its end. Eternal existence, on the other hand, simply means that all spirits of all men will exist forever, either in heaven (eternal life) or in hell (eternal death/damnation/destruction).

I brought up this argument earlier, and I want to use it again, because it is so powerful.
Jesus Christ took the WHOLE punishment of sin. None of it is left for His people to bear. He bore it ALL.
If that punishment entails or includes annihilation, Jesus Christ was annihilated. If spiritual nonexistence is a part of the punishment for sin, Jesus Christ took it.
That is heresy. Plain and simple. God cannot cease to exist.
And yet you say you believe that.
I hope you don't.

To the contrary, the punishment of sin does NOT INCLUDE annihilation, so Jesus Christ was NOT annihilated.
Instead of entailing annihilation, the punishment was eternal damnation.
And so you say "How could He bear an eternal punishment in a finite time?" Simple. He is God, an eternal being. Just as God (the Father) can harbor an infinite wrath, so God (Jesus Christ) can bear an eternal wrath.
This is one of the mysteries of the Gospel. Humanly, that blows my mind, just like the Hypostatic Union (the God/man Jesus Christ) amazes me beyond degree.
But with God, ALL things are possible.

I hope this has helped in any small way.

SavedByGrace

I agree that all of this may seem logical to the annihilationist, but there is one major logical fallacy that, I know, I continue to bring up: God's justice.

If God is just, He will judge us justly. If He is eternal, and we sin against Him, we deserve an eternal punishment. You may say I have made a big jump in that statement. Why? If I lie to my boss, I'll get fired. If I lie to the government, I'll go to prison for treason. If I lie to God, fill in the blank! God is infinitely more important and holy than our government–of course the punishment will be infinitely greater!

And why don't we argue over the eternality of heaven? If the phrase "the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever" doesn't mean what it says in Revelation 14:11, why should we believe that when the Bible says "eternal life" anywhere else, it doesn't really mean that? An eternal hell seems way more just than an eternal heaven! Why do we argue over the justice of an eternal hell, but not over the justice of an eternal heaven? Why can God's grace last forever without a problem, but not His wrath? It just seems to me that annihilationists have a low view of sin and a high view of man.

Matthew Minica

@Erika: "I'd like to know, logically, why the Bible keeps on talking about destruction and "the wages of sin is death" if the punishment really is eternal torture." Precisely what I want to know! Now maybe I have someone who agrees with me somewhat!

@Talia: You have a good point. However, "death" is not the only word Scripture uses to describe the end of the wicked. It also uses "destruction", "perishing", "consuming into smoke", "being ashes under our feet", and in one place in Obadiah, "it shall be as if they had not been".

Also on your last comment: You said "I think there's a pretty distinct difference between "eternal punishment" and "punishment with eternal consequences". The former refers to punishment that lasts forever, and the latter refers to punishment with everlasting consequences." I do not agree with you. However, I can make a similar argument against your position: I think there's a pretty distinct difference between "eternal punishment" and "eternal punishing". The former refers to punishment with everlasting consequences, and the latter refers to punishing that lasts forever.

@alex: In Genesis 2, when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the forbidden fruit, "death" means two things. (1) It means their bodies would begin to decay. In the original Hebrew, the phrase is literally, "you will begin to die". (2) Unless they followed God, they would also experience eternal death (annihilation). You said, "Whatever death Adam got, it wasn't annihilation." But it would have been annihilation if he hadn't followed God.

@Octavius:
"…the punishment of sin does NOT INCLUDE annihilation, so Jesus Christ was NOT annihilated." "…the punishment was eternal damnation." I agree with you completely. This is clearly what the Bible teaches.
"And so you say "How could He bear an eternal punishment in a finite time?" Simple. He is God, an eternal being. Just as God (the Father) can harbor an infinite wrath, [my comment: He can, but He doesn't. Again, see Psalm 30:5: "his anger endureth but a moment…"] so God (Jesus Christ) can bear an eternal wrath.
But with God, ALL things are possible." But there are some things that God cannot do. For example, God cannot sin. He cannot make us believe in Him if we don't want to. He cannot go against His own laws. One of those laws is that eternity is "un-compressable". Infinity divided by anything equals infinity. God Himself created this law. He must stand by it, or He is an inconsistent God, and if he is an inconsistent God, then the whole universe falls apart.

@SavedByGrace: "If God is just, He will judge us justly. If He is eternal, and we sin against Him, we deserve an eternal punishment. You may say I have made a big jump in that statement. Why? If I lie to my boss, I'll get fired. If I lie to the government, I'll go to prison for treason. If I lie to God, fill in the blank! God is infinitely more important and holy than our government–of course the punishment will be infinitely greater!" This argument seems logical. I understand completely why you stand by it. My only problem with it is that the logic is extrabiblical. You cannot find a single verse in the Bible that says that we deserve eternal punishing since we have sinned. Anyway, how do you know that the ascending relationship (boss, government, God) holds?

God's Maiden of Virtue

@Matthew Minica and Erika- I didn't really want to get involved with this, but here are a few verses on eternal punishment .

"the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who DO NOT KNOW God, and on those who DO NOT OBEY the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. These shall be punished with EVERLASTING destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, " (2 Thessalonians 1:7b-9)

It says right here in these verses that unbelievers, or those who do not know God and those who do not obey the gospel, shall be punished in everlasting (or eternal) destruction. This is the final judgment, when the wicked, unbelievers, AND the devil and his angels shall be cast into everlasting destruction. Torment in hell WILL go on for eternity.

Karthmin Aretani

God is the author of logic. It is not wrong or unbiblical to use logic to support a theological position. If we don't use logic, we would get a very messy system of doctrine. On the other hand, we must use Scripture as well as logic. If you don't use Scripture, you get a messy system of doctrine as well. There are Scriptures that state that God's holiness is infinite (and I don't think you argue with them). There are also verses that state that God's wrath is a part of his character (Romans 9). Any and every part of God's character is infinite. (That's logic, and it is not bad.) If any part or attribute of God is not infinite, the universe falls apart, because God ceases to be God.
This infinite wrath cannot and will not be satisfied with finite punishment. The punishment of sin directly relates to the character of the one sinned against. Because God is eternal, the punishment for sin against Him is eternal. Sin is finite yes, in that it is committed by finite beings, but it is an infinite evil, in that it is committed against an infinite God, and so deserves infinite punishment.
How can you agree with me that annihilation is not part of the punishment for sin, and yet at the same time maintain that it is? Please explain this MAJOR inconsistency.
3.Infinite wrath and punishment upon infinite sacrifice equals total and infinite satisfaction of wrath. No, of course God does not divide infinity. He meets infinite wrath with infinite love and whats the answer? Infinite grace.
Infinite wrath and punishment upon an infinitely loving and perfect Sacrifice, and what's the answer? Infinite salvation for all those who believe = eternal life.
Of course God did not compress infinity to make it swallowable by Jesus. HE DRANK THE WHOLE CUP! And that is precisely why GOD had to be the Sacrifice, because only He could drink the infinite cup of God's wrath! If you think that cup is finite, then, hypothetically, a sinless man (and merely man) could do the job. But a mere man, even if sinless, cannot drink infinite wrath. Only God could do that, and blessed be He, He did do it!

Matthew Minica