Why not kill the Abortion Doctor?

I saw this come up a little in Video Games, and just for the record, I am opposed to purposeful killing, which has been debated in another thread. So my question is, Why don't you, who believe that killing can be justified, start bringing justice to the millions of babies who have been, are, and will be killed? Just curious. Thanks.

Killing the abortion doctor is wrong because the Bible says "thou shalt not murder." Even if it is to avenge the aborted baby, it would still be wrong, because ""vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord."

That is Great! I agree so far.
What if you are in China and the abortion doctor wants to kill you child against your will? Do you kill the doctor to save you child's life, or let the doctor do his job?

I am (obviously by my profile picture) not a father yet, so I can't put myself in those shoes. I would say if there was a situation where I was married and in the house with my wife and someone tried to break in to force my wife to have an abortion, I would consider it rightful self defense for either her or I to disable those who were trying to take her away, even if it meant killing them. Unless the abortion doctor was with the police and was himself trying to drag her away, I would see no need to go out of my way to kill the doctor.

So you feel the right to protect your wife and unborn child, Hypothetically. :) But you don't feel you have that right if you are just defending the unborn child from her/his mother that is going to kill him or her?

Your premise is correct. But if everyone just ran around trying to do justice for whatever aborted or about to be aborted child they wished, the world would become a pretty messy place in an awful hurry. Plus where do you stop… doctor, parents, friends who knew…??? I don't agree with abortion, but I don't believe personal vengeance is the correct way to fight it.

So you are saying, what would I do if my wife were to try to have an abortion? Or if someone else was? If someone else, I would have no power to interfere, because it would not be my wife, nor would I be that child's father. If it was my wife who was going to have an abortion, I, not being a husband yet ;) I wouldn't exactly know how I would talk to her about the situation, but I wouldn't just go and kill every abortion doctor within a driveable radius.

Okay, I think you misunderstood my question, though I am glad you won't kill every abortion doctor in driving distance. lol

So, if you see a lady being attacked on the street you would feel you have the moral, "biblical" duty to protect her even if it meant killing her attacker.
Yet, there are thousands of children being murdered, and you feel you don't have that duty? Why Not? Why do you discriminate between the born and the unborn?

You guys are saying exactly what me & my family were saying a few weeks ago while we were driving home from prayer meeting!

It would not be okay to kill an abortion doctor unless he was trying to kill your child.

However, it might be okay to break into an abortion clinic at night and destroy only the instruments used for making the abortions. Leave everything else untouched.

There is no discrimination. If I saw an unborn baby being attacked in the streets I would feel obligated to interfere.

Let's look at the one time in Scripture where Jesus did anything, well, violent, if you will. John 2 records the instance where Jesus cleared the temple of those who were violating His Father's house, as well as those who were fraudulently changing money. How many temples did Jesus clear? The Bible records one. Why? Jesus was going into the temple, and saw it was being violated, so He cleared them out. He didn't go all over Israel driving out people who violated holy places and fraudulently changed money, though I am sure there were multiple places where similar things were going on.

There is a difference between defending a woman who is being attacked, and attacking a doctor because he is performing an abortion: why would I help a woman who is being attacked? Because I was going by and saw it happen. I'm not going to go stalk a known woman-attacker in hopes of catching him red handed just so I can murder him.

So if you see a man killing a woman, you will kill the man, and if you see a man killing a baby you will kill the man also. So long as you don't see it, as it is happening it is fine?

And do you feel that the actions of the illustrious Dietrich Bonhoeffer were wrong when he joined the resistance against Hitler?

So if you see a man killing a woman, you will kill the man, and if you see a man killing a baby you will kill the man also. So long as you don't see it, as it is happening it is fine?

No, I did not say it is fine. Would Jesus say that defrauding is fine if He didn't see it? Of course not! There are times to interfere quickly, and there are times when interfering quickly will bring a consequence opposite of that intended.

Okay, I understand, thanks.

I saw this come up a little in Video Games, and just for the record, I am opposed to purposeful killing, which has been debated in another thread. So my question is, Why don't you, who believe that killing can be justified, start bringing justice to the millions of babies who have been, are, and will be killed? Just curious. Thanks.

So we're supposed to rise up like certain individuals in the book of Judges?
That would be like David bring the ark back to Jerusalem on a cart.
Right thing. Totally wrong way.

So Dietrich went about overthrowing Hitler the wrong way?
I guess it is just a matter of debate about which way is best?

This is a good question! I hadn't actually thought about it before, and now you got me thinking hard about it. :)

I don't know if my opinion will stay intact after more discussion, but my first instinct would be to say that it is the government's job to punish murder, and as murder is a blood crime, a crime worthy of death, than the government can and should bring the abortion doctor to justice by putting him to death.

^^^This assumes a number of things, though. First, that an unborn child is a person (there are many nuanced positions here, such as life at conception, first heartbeat, etc.). Second, that the doctor violated their Hippocratic Oath to not knowingly harm or murder a person or patient within their care. If they believed that they were helping the woman and did not actually believe or know that their abortion was murder, then I think that, perhaps, a lesser sentence than death should be applied to them (in my mind, accidental killing is somewhat different than "murder"). In any case, it would give the doctor the ability to understand the wrongness of his actions and, hopefully, repent.

So those are just my preliminary thoughts. I think we as individuals do not have the right to go vigilante-style and kill every abortion doctor we see. I think, for the most part, it is the government's job (acting for God) to administer justice for crimes. At the same time, people have the responsibility to take action when wrong is about to be done. It is a incept called "imminent threat to the innocent." If a doctor's arm is raised to plunge a syringe of an abortion-inducing drug into a woman, I would try to catch the arm. I would do all in my power to stop him if I were present, though killing would have to be a last-ditch effort with all the facts of the situation in place. If I knew that I would have to kill him to stop a murder, I don't know quite what I'd do, but I think it would protect the innocent from the evil of the guilty, so I could do it without guilt. Ultimately, though, God, not I, will be their judge. If a situation like this arised and I had to make a choice, I know that I would be doing a lot of praying.

I don't no who Dietrich was but If he was trying to end Hitler's reign he was doing a good thing.
(he wasn't successful so I'm guessing it didn't end well)

the situation differs slightly in that abortion doctors arnt the governing authority. ^not yet anyway^

Good thoughts Jimmy.
Are you familiar with Bonhoeffer? Last year I finally settled down and read his Biography by Eric Metaxas. Long read but interesting.
Anyhow, He came to America before the war, and He was asked the question if He was for God or Country? He said, "In Germany we are for both." Then He said He could not imagine a situation where He would be forced to chose between Germany or God. It wasn't long before He had to make that choice, as Hitler came to power.
So my question for you is, what happens when the government is sanctioning the Holocaust?
That is what happened in Germany,
That is what is happening in the US. Only in Germany it was only 6 Million Jews, in the US it has been 55 Million Children.

Wait, so you think if He was trying to stop Hitler, he was doing good? No matter how he did it? Yet, you don't feel that way about the Holocaust in the US?

BTW, Yes he was trying to stop Hitler, they tried three times, and the first time the bomb didn't go off on his plane, and they had to recover the "wine" they sent along. The second time Hitler didn't stick around long enough and the suicide bomber had to quick go dismantle the bomb in the bathroom, so it didn't blow himself up. The Third time the bomb went off, but Hitler was at the wrong end of the table and He survived.

yes, what Detrice did was right. But we cant. For the same reason(s) Detric didn't go after the people running the concentration camps.

So your saying, overthrow the government? lol
Still, Dietrich also helped rescue Jews from Germany, He helped them get out.
I could also use the example of Corrie Ten Boom. I guess her example would mean kidnapping potential mothers till the would give birth. Just saying.

Kidnapping potential mothers till they would give birth? Corrie Ten Boom didn't kidnap the Jews she hid. It was entirely voluntary.

Right, I was referring to the Babies in the womb. And equivocating that with the Jews. Only in this case you would have to kidnap the mother to protect the child.

LOL
I think that until the currant system succumbs to pure corruption the right course of action is to evangelizes and get people to agree in their heart that babies are living beings who should be protected, rather then grudging "well I guess we have to."

I guess then, during Nazi era, it would have been better, for us to try to evangelize and get people to agree in their heart that Jews are living beings who should be protected, rather then grudging "well I guess we have to."

Is America equivalent in every way to Nazi Germany?
I'm getting confused do you want to kill abortion doctors or are you just trying to use what I said against me?

I know what your saying, If everyone just fought about everything, we wouldn't really have a democracy. That would get no where fast. It is just interesting that you're for fighting Nazi Germany, and against fighting the US.

I am somewhat familiar with Bonhoeffer, but probably not as much as you because you have actually read his biography. :) I don't quite know why he came to act as he did against Hitler, but knowing his reasons would go a long way into making the connection between the Holocaust and abortion doctors more strong and clear.

My opinion on killing, in a nutshell, is that it is always to be used as a last defense, to save someone in imminent danger when their life or lives are threatened by a malicious person or group. For instance, although I would not like it (I don't think you should ever "like" killing someone, no matter how justified), I would send in a Seal team to take out a terrorist if I knew in one minute he would blow up New York City. However, in cases where imminent danger is not present, I would argue that killing is wrong, or should be left to the government (God's minister to us for good) and God. In a case where the government itself is evil, we should not practice vigilante justice and punish crimes. I do believe, though, that we are given the biblical authority to stop such crimes from happening with all that is in our power.

As we have sort of gone over my opinion already in other threads (where we respectfully agreed to disagree after good discussion), I will try to apply this to the abortion doctor case.

Before I do that, though, I would like to argue that, if anyone is guilty in an abortion, it is, in a majority of cases, the mother. Sure, the abortion doctor is a participant in the process and actually does the procedure, but the woman make the choice to destroy the life inside her. Of course, there are some cases in which the woman is manipulated into getting an abortion, but this is not true in the majority of abortions. The point I am trying to make is, if there's guilt, it lies with the woman AND the doctor, and we should not try to separate them so easily.

But anyway, if the government is sanctioning abortions, that does not give us the right to go about killing abortion doctors and mothers left and right, taking our idea of murder and forcing them to pay the consequences. Once a crime has already been committed, only God and the government can be their judge (in the case of a corrupt government, God). Before a blood crime is committed, though, I believe you can work to prevent the abortion, even if that means pulling away the arm of the doctor, destroying the instruments, civilly talking to him, or even (as a last, last resort) hurting him. God judges the guilty, and we should not get involved unless we are called, but I think he often uses his people as a way to prevent wrong and to save other people. I think of Jael, Heber's wife, who killed an evil king with a tent peg to save lives. Yes, it is gruesome, but I think God used her as a way to help save and deliver his people. In the same way, those close to God and versed in His law can work to stop future evils.

What does this mean for Bonhoeffer? Again, I don't know his reasoning, but if he was trying to bring justice for past crimes, he acted wrongly. If we was trying to prevent future crimes, I would ask whether he had exhausted all other options before he acted (I am not sure he did). If the lives of millions rides solely on whether he killed the Hitler or no, and there were no other options, and he spent time in prayer to seek God's will, he could/should do it.

Okay, here is a question, if you were the president of another country, and possesed enough military power, would you go to war with the US because of abortion?

Hmm…I don't know. I guess my view of the responsibilities of a country are sort of different from that of an individual. While I believe that, to a large degree, they operate on the same moral ground, I also think there are other areas in which they differ (that might be a better discussion for another thread, though). But I will say that war ALWAYS (100% of the time) results in the deaths of innocents. Does killing an innocent make it worth the death of abortion doctors? No, because saving innocent lives would be why I went to war in the first place. For almost all cases, war is not the right option. I could probably list on one hand the reasons I think would be justifiable. I think, in the case of abortion, a foreign government could try to do all in its power to stop abortion, short of killing innocents at war. If those options are exhausted, it should leave that country to God's judgment (the problem does not involve ITS people after all, and it does not possess God-given authority over their lives).

Those are just my first thoughts, though. I would be interested to hear what you think. I know you don't advocate killing under any circumstance, though I would imagine you would be against abortion. If you don't mind, can I present a scenario for you to answer. Let's say an abortion doctor was holding up a syringe to inject the abortion drug into the woman. For some reason, you happen to be standing nearby. Would you grab the arm to prevent it? How about if you had sharp nails and you knew you would cut and scratch the doctors arm if you tried to stop him? Where is the line for you between too much harm to the doctor and justifiable harm to prevent wrongdoing?

Oh, I definitely agree. The responsibilities of a country are more different than an individual. I would be interested in knowing what your handful of justifiable causes are. So do you think it was wrong for the Allies to battle the Axis?

Again, we could debate the helpfulness of any action against an abortion doctor, even if you decide to kill him, you would probably just get thrown in jail and the woman would go to a different doctor.

So if the scenario was that the doctor was also going to kill the woman, because he purposefully put to much medicine in, than any action taken would probably have more results.

Though that is a good question, like the sharp nails example, lol.
I am not sure, I think I am now starting to think that restraining the individual is a valid option. So if in trying to restrain him, I scratched his arm, I think I would be okay with that. I just have a very hard time seeing how killing someone, can be an act of love, prayer, and blessing. 3 things the Bible tells us to do to our enemies.

dose either of you know where in the book of Kings the one prophet asks someone to strike him in the eyes but he didn't so that someone got eaten by a Lion? and something about one of the kings not killing the other… I cant find it so I don't know if I can use it.

1 kings 20:36

The Bible says that if man sheds man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. And that's NOT an Old Covenant law; it's a creation ordinance. God gave that command to Noah BEFORE the Old Covenant.

I think the government has the responsibility to kill abortion doctors, not the commonfolk. (Unless a girl was forced to abort her child, in which case she should protect her child.)

Thanks!

From what I understand, in bible times, if a man was killed, a close relative (possibly a brother) would avenge him. So, I'm not sure it is our job to avenge. I agree with the other comments therefore, that unless a doctor is trying to kill your child, you don't have the right to take action against them.

In general that worked and it has its place but then there were the (…seemingly self appointed…) Judges and people like Elijah who indulged in cutting-off-the-heads-of-the-prophets-of-baal from time to time.

"Nevertheless the LORD raised up judges, which delivered them out of the hand of those that spoiled them." Judges 2:16

yes God was with them, but if someone jumps up and says "hey! lets go kill a bunch of people we don't like and btw I get to led." what is everybody going to think? most of them were either illegitimate, lead questionable lives, or just nobodies you would not want leading.

they only succeeded because God was with them not because they were elected by popular vote.

Okay, I see what you mean.

Yes, but when Elijah killed the prophets of baal, that was not avenging someone who was killed, though there were people who were killed as a result of baal worship, but rather, it was more of purging the evil from among them. And, as you said, God was with him.

But to use the same logic couldn't killing abortion doctors be called a purge?

Possibly yes, if God tells us to do it.

Sticking my nose into someone else's conversation here. I have read the Eric Metaxas Bonhoeffer book. A great read, inspiring, important in these evil days. Have you heard of the group called Abolish Human Abortion? Check them out. Peace.

well that works for me.

Should we kill the abortionist doctor? Um, no. What he or she is doing is absolutely horrific, but God has expressly forbidden us from taking the life of a human being. Think about how illogical that is: because that man (or woman) takes the life of human beings and we stand against the taking of lives, we are going to take his life. The way this must change is not by violence, but by individuals who are transformed by God and turn from death to life in every sense of the word.

@"Lydia Bruce" Where did God expressly forbid us from taking the life of a human being?

"You shall not murder."
Exodus 20:13

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, THOU SHALT DO NO MURDER. Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." -Matthew 19:17-19

"THOU SHALT NOT KILL." -Exodus 20:13

"THOU SHALT NOT KILL." -Deuteronomy 5:17

"Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, DO NOT KILL, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother." -Mark 10:19

"Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, THOU SHALT NOT KILL, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law." -Romans 13:8-10

"For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." -James 2:11

And many other places in the bible talk about and disapprove of killing as well. These are just some specific places that God says not to kill/murder.

All KJV.