Extrabiblical "Religious" Holidays

@SBG: Ah, I was afraid of that. You didn’t really look up the verses I referred to. I’m joking, it was my fault…I thought I was forgetting something!
Matthew 15:9 says, “And in vain they worship Me, Teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.” Christmas is a tradition of man that began with the paganism. What’s more God says over and over again how he wants his people to stay far away from other religions!

@seth: I will start working on your reply as soon as I finish school today, and will continue working on it tomorrow. :)

@jimmy: Yes, I agree! It is good to remember that although we may not agree, we have the same Savior and Lord who never changes. Someday we will see Him face to face, and then we will know truth as He sees it! You have maintained your points and represented you side of this discussion very well. Thank you!

I encourage you, and everyone who reads through our posts to continue to consider!
Study, and search out truth.
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” - Matthew 7:7
Pray for wisdom!
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind." –James 1:5-6

Mewwy Chwistmas!

Merry Christmas to you too.

@All - I'm going to be gone for the next few days on a camping trip, so I won't be posting anything. Just wanted to let you know that I'll be missing for a few days but I'll be back Sunday or Monday. :)

1. Yes, I think we are on the same page for the most part. Except that it really depends on what you mean by “celebrate” and how you go about it. But it is never wrong to worship Christ in spirit and truth (unmixed with other religions) the way He authorized.

2. I’m afraid we don’t agree on this one. It seems to me that the birth of Christ was not as important as His death. Not all the gospels record Jesus’ birth, but they ALL tell of his death. Jesus commanded us to remember his death, so surly that is more important to him! If he had wanted us to recognize his birth he would have commanded us to do so. For us to set up a day of our own, to please ourselves is to rebuff the headship of Christ.

3. Okay, I think I see better what you mean here. The scriptural support for NOT celebrating Christ birth on December 25th is the same as why not to have Christmas tree and lights. December 25th was the day that the pagans worshiped the sun god. Again this day was chosen because of a pagan celebration and God says over and over again not to have anything to do with those things. Deuteronomy 12:29-32; Jeremiah 10:1-2;

4. If you don’t mind I am going to study and ask my grandfather about this point so I can give you the most complete answer I can.

5. At the very end of this point you asked what I have against giving gifts on Christmas. A.) The tradition has nothing to do with Christ’s birth, but has many superstitious, pagan origins instead. B.) Do not covet- the want list children make on Christmas, the looking at what other people have and wanting it. C.) Do not murder- to envy and hate is the same as murder.

And now my favorite part! What the Bible says:

2 Chron. 33:15-17 – The Israelites had kept the old pagan form (the high places of Baal), but had introduced the worship of God into that form showing a refusal to let go of pagan worship forms. The right object of worship was being mixed with the wrong form of worship making it unacceptable all together. So is the celebration of Christmas the taking of a pagan form of worship and introducing Christ into that form worship.

Deut. 12:29-32 – God warned His people to destroy all vestiges of the pagan idolatry that they found in the conquered lands they entered. God made it clear that not only did He not want them calling on other gods he also didn’t want to be worshiped in that way. He had set up the way he wanted to be worshiped anything else was mans traditions. The commanded was to worship God His way not add to them with man’s traditions, or take way from them. I firmly believe that “putting Christ back into Christmas” is worshiping “the Lord your God their way”. Is there and command in the Bible to give special reverence to the Bible’s account of Christ’s birth more then to any other passage? Or dose it even mention celebrating Christ’s birth in any way? God has called us to separation!

Lev. 10:1-2 – (I have mentioned this one before but I perhaps I used it in the wrong “for instance”) the offering of strange fire made by Nadab and Abihu to the Lord was unacceptable. Do you not think that Christmas with all its pagan symbols and forms is a kind of strange fire in our day?

1 Sam. 15:1-3, 7-9, 21-23 – Saul disobeyed God’s prophet in order to worship God in his way. Is not the celebration of Christmas a way of worshiping God in our own way?

2 Sam. 6:2-7 - David in an attempt to transport the ark chose to use a new cart instead of following the instructions God had given for using the rings and poles. Not only was it transported in the wrong way it was also transported by the wrong people. Don’t you think it is wrong to celebrate Christ the wrong way with the wrong people (the heathen of the world join right in with the professing Christians) in the form of Christmas?

1 King 12:26-33 – In order to identify the northern tribes of Israel, ungodly King Jeroboam set up pagan idols not in place of God, but as a new focal point for directing worship to God. Even though the true God of Israel was being “worshiped” in the new religious holiday, both the holiday and the worship were not authorized by God nor accepted by Him (1Kings 13:1-3, 15:29,30)! Why? Because the imaginary mixture of error with truth made up a false religion!

1 Cor. 8:4-13; Rom. 14:1-13; 1 Cor. 10:14, 18-21 – Some claim that Paul is teaching that the participation in pagan forms condemns no one, and participating in Christmas is fine. After studying these verse some more and talking with my uncle I received a new perspective on these passages. These verses are talking about Jewish festivals commanded in the OT. But to observe a pagan holy day is something those verses do not approve at all. They certainly did not have the liberty to regard Babylonian/Roman pagan holy days and neither should we!

I hope you have a wonderful camping trip! I enjoy camping as well. :) I look forward to hearing your reply when you return!

Here's my response to some of the verses in the previous comment.
I did this a little differently than I normally do, usually I like to put the verses up, copied exactly from an internet source to make it easy to read through and see the scripture, but I typed this offline, so only those verses in quotes are quoted, and the others are my overveiw. As always trust what God's word says, and not man's word (including my own).

1 Corinthians 8:4-13 Is not talking about involvement in Jewish fesivals, and OT commands, this is Paul, the pharisee of pharisees, he's not going to call that (his Hebrew heritage) sacrificeing to idols. His application does actually point to pagan practices, here he's writing to the predominantly Greek Corinthians, not Jews.
Paul then says that those pagan idols are nothing in this world (v.4,) there's no other God but one. If the idols are nothing, than the days used to worship them, and the trees, and the gifts, are also nothing.
This is not to say that we observe idols and their practices, but to say that they no longer have any power. No power to hinder us from anything, let alone, worshiping the one Lord Christ Jesus.
Paul goes on to say however, (v.7) that there are people who do not have this knowledge. Their conscience tells them that pagan things actually have some significance.
He says (v.8) that [eating] meat [sacrificed to idols] doesn't condemn us before God, and that we are neither better or worse for doing so. I would infer that celebrating a holiday doesn't condemn one before God, either.
Paul finishes up the chapter (vs.10-13) with a warning to us not to let our liberty become the stumbling block of a weaker brother.

I agree wholeheartedly with those saying that we must worship the Lord in the way he perscribed,without mixing in paganism.

I however do not see my observance of Christmas as having anything to do with paganism whatsoever. It may have once been, and may be now by some that I am not aware of, and it is wrong for those who did and do, to practice anything but the pure worship of Christ.

When "Christmas" began, any mixing in of paganism was wrong, it was idolatry. But now I do not celebrate the Christmas that Constantine or whoever was back then did, I celebrate the day as one of rememberance of the greatest gift of love sent down from the father above to redeem all mankind, in the tradition of my ancestors and Christian friends. Some just celebrate the day as a frivilous holiday, in which santa claus may be the cheif idol and they would be wrong to do so.

1 Corinthians 10:14 ' Wherefore my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.'
Amen. If celebrating Christmas is idolatry for you, flee from it.

1 Corinthians 10:18-21 Paul is already talking about communion (vs.16-17), and says that we are all one body in Christ, because we are partakers in Christ's sacrifice. He gives us a physical example Israel (v.18) He says, look at the way things work in Israel, those who eat of the sacrifices are partakers of the altar. Then he goes on to ask (v.19) is an idol anything, or the stuff offered to idols anything? (v.20) the things the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not God.
I don't want you to have fellowship with devils. (v.21) You cannot drink the cup of the lord and the cup of devils: you cannot be partakers of the Lord's table and the table of devils. Next (v.22) Paul asks, are we going to provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than He is? The rest of the chapter (vs.23-33) talks again about the liberty we have in Christ, and the necessary sensitivity to the consceinces of others. And give us instruction as to what to do in any event: Do everything to the glory of God.

This passage does not approve of observeing a pagan holy day, but tells us (not an exclusive list of what the passage says) that we are all one body in Christ, that pagans worship devils, that we cannot worship both devils and God, that we must seek the good of others and not our own, and that we are by grace partakers of freedom in Christ.

Because idols are nothing, they do not keep me from observing Christmas, or Easter (Resurrection Sunday is a better way to put it) either.

Romans 14:1-13, We are Christ's slaves, not subject to the rules of any other. Don't put a stumbling block in front of your brother.
Here these 'days', being talked about, don't seem to have any specific connection, e.g Jewish, Pagan… I think this is done so for a reason, namely that it includes all days just as the word day would mean in its ordinary sense, when it has nothing attached to it.
In verse 14, Paul says: ' I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.'
I would take this to mean, that Christmas is not wrong to celebrate, unless you are told so by your conscience, and that it may then not be wrong for someone else, even if it be wrong for yourself.

In order to avoid casing more people frustration. I will post the verse we are discussing (in New King James):

4Therefore concerning the eating of things offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no other God but one. 5For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as there are many gods and many lords), 6yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.
7However, there is not in everyone that knowledge; for some, with consciousness of the idol, until now eat it as a thing offered to an idol; and their conscience, being weak, is defiled. 8But food does not commend us to God; for neither if we eat are we the better, nor if we do not eat are we the worse.
9But beware lest somehow this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to those who are weak. 10For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol’s temple, will not the conscience of him who is weak be emboldened to eat those things offered to idols? 11And because of your knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died? 12But when you thus sin against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, you sin against Christ. 13Therefore, if food makes my brother stumble, I will never again eat meat, lest I make my brother stumble. 1 Cor. 8:4-13

14Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 1 Cor. 8:4-13

18Observe Israel after the flesh: Are not those who eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19What am I saying then? That an idol is anything, or what is offered to idols is anything? 20Rather, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice they sacrifice to demons and not to God, and I do not want you to have fellowship with demons. 21You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons. 22Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He? – 1 Cor. 8:18-22

1Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. 2For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. 3Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. 4Who are you to judge another’s servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand.
5One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord; and he who does not observe the day, to the Lord he does not observe it. He who eats, eats to the Lord, for he gives God thanks; and he who does not eat, to the Lord he does not eat, and gives God thanks. 7For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. 8For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died £and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living. 10But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of £Christ. 11For it is written:
“As I live, says the LORD,
Every knee shall bow to Me,
And every tongue shall confess to God.ӣ
12So then each of us shall give account of himself to God. 13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather resolve this, not to put a stumbling block or a cause to fall in our brother’s way. Rom. 14:1-13

I was very confused when I read your post because I agree with what you said. I have talked with my parents and prayed about it. This is the conclusion I came up with for what I really believe these verses are saying:

Everyone is accountable to God for what they do in this life. God is our judge never man (or woman either, if you will). Our job is to study and pray. Everyone has convictions of what they believe is right and wrong. When you are convicted of something it is your responsibility before God to hold to it as long as you are sure that is what God wants of you. People (such as us) look at the same facts in the Bible and come up with different answers.

For me it is wrong to celebrate Christmas because that is what I see God saying in His word. I apogees for my temporary misinterpretation of those verses, thank you for correcting me.

In this discussion the one thing I didn’t understand very well was the difference between things like the days of the week being pagan names and holidays. What makes things like the days of the week, wedding rings, honeymoons, and all the other things we can trace back to paganism so different from the holidays?
Among those things listed above holidays is the only thing that we clam to use to worship God. Whether or not those other things are wrong or not is a completely different subject.

I am not sure on this. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The difference between the holidays and other things like the days of the week that we can trace back to paganism is this: one is used to worship God. Should we use something that so obviously traces back to paganism in our worship?

Yes, that is what I am saying. Whether or not all those other things that trace back to paganism are wrong is a completely different subject.

Very true. And besides, how could we get rid of everything in our lives that had roots in paganism? We'd have to move to Mars! xP

Mars was a Roman god, wasn't he? So we definitely couldn't move there! It would be like becoming pagans; we would probably lose our salvation!
(I am being sarcastic, please do not all jump on me for suggesting that losing your salvation is possible.)

Haha! Margaret you make me laugh for real!

Haha, you got me there! Where could we move? NO where. That's the point – we cannot get rid of everything in our lives that has roots in paganism.

This is our point exactly; if we are not sinning by going along with the world in calling every day the name of a pagan deity (because, of course, no one associates those names with pagan deities anymore), we are not necessarily sinning if we celebrate Christmas, no matter where its roots are, as long as we celebrate it in a way that is obviously glorifying to God (and not going along with the world in making it a holiday of materialism and the like).

Something that's against God's ways could never be glorifying to Him no matter how we (as humans) view it.

But it is no longer against God's ways, any more than "day of the sun god" for Sunday and "day of the moon god" for Monday are against His ways.

But the difference is that we aren't trying to use those names (Sunday and Monday) to worship God.

Aren't we? We worship God on Sunday, and very closely associate the word "Sunday" with worship of God. Yet no one can claim that we are advocating worship of the sun by this, can they?

This is our point exactly; if we are not sinning by going along with the world in calling every day the name of a pagan deity (because, of course, no one associates those names with pagan deities anymore), we are not necessarily sinning if we celebrate Christmas, no matter where its roots are, as long as we celebrate it in a way that is obviously glorifying to God (and not going along with the world in making it a holiday of materialism and the like).

Okay. And btw, I never said I thought celebrating Christmas was wrong. ;)

Yeah! You go Nicolas!!! =D

The name of the “Sunday” has nothing to do with the worshiping we do on that day.

And the word 'Christmas' does, so we shouldn't worship Him on that day?

“The name Christmas means Christ mass (mass is the Roman Catholic term for their worship service). This celebration started with a pagan celebration of their Sun god in which they exchanged gifts. In the Roman Catholic Church, the focus was changed from the Sun god to the birth of Jesus and spread to many other religions. Today almost everyone celebrates Christmas even the wicked people who hate Jesus.” – From “A Little Book About Christmas” a children’s book

^(The book was written to explain what Christmas is. I liked it very much because it never condemns the holiday, but explains the truth of it and lets the reader come to his or her own conclusion. That is what my parent’s intent in writing the book.)^

Why don't we celebrate the conception of Christ anymore? Or his baptism?

Why don't we celebrate the conception of Christ anymore? Or his baptism?

BECAUSE I'M -BATMAN!- DEADPOOL!

Why don't we celebrate the conception of Christ anymore? Or his baptism?

Maybe because the Puritans chunked it along with lots of other religious holidays with the view of not regarding one day above another. I don't know, just a guess…

I don't remember having heard of anyone celebrating these things. Did the early Church actually do that?

The conception of Christ (March 25) was what was counted as the New Year. I just learned about this when we were in Jamestown, because they were taking about how they were on this particular island on the New Year, March 25, which Dad noted was the conception of Christ.

And as to His baptism, I was just curious why we don't have a celebration for it.

MERRY ZELDA MONTH EVERYBODY!

^I LOVE YOU!^

A year since we had that awesome debate. Best one I ever had! :) Thanks everyone for making it such a great experience for me!
And thank You, Lord, for allowing me to grow through it.

Ok, I just had a random thought… Just because some people leave Christ out of Christmas does that mean we should not celebrate it if we focus on the real meaning? I have noticed some people celebrating Easter and having Communion without realizing the true meaning of either. Does that mean we should not celebrate/do them? Nope.

I personally think Christmas is fine, and even great if you make sure it revolves around Jesus being born.

Lot's of people would agree with you..
Can you back up what you say with scripture? :)

I just read through this thread earlier today. Wow! That was a very good, well-reasoned debate. It is one that I also enjoyed learning from and participating in. One year later, I am still not 100% solidified on this issue, but I would definitely be interested in seeing this discussion re-opened. :)

Ok, I just had a random thought... Just because some people leave Christ out of Christmas does that mean we should not celebrate it if we focus on the real meaning? I have noticed some people celebrating Easter and having Communion without realizing the true meaning of either. Does that mean we should not celebrate/do them? Nope.

@jimmy - If you are interested in discussing it again I am all for it. :)

So I'll just start by replying to Hannah (as quoted above). :)

@Hannah - What is the real meaning? You would say it is Christ birth. I would say that the Lord never wanted to be worshiped or celebrated in the form of a pagan holiday. All through scripture He has made it clear that His ways are far above our ways, and His thoughts above our thoughts. He set in order the way He wanted us to remember Him (His life and death) in the form of Communion (and/or Passover). My arguments about Easter are the same as Christmas.
It's not about who we are remembering when we do the action, it's how we go about it. Are we doing it the way God wants, or the way man wants?

Why is it wrong? You keep harping that Christmas is a pagan holiday; if the way that we as Christians celebrate it is in a God-honoring way, how is that pagan?

If you look in the Bible God says that He doesn't want His people worshiping Him like the pagans worship their gods. He explained that the reason why is because it would slowly draw their hearts away from Him. He is a jealous God.

Many, many years ago some people wanted to help the pagans convert to Christianity easier, so the took the pagan holidays and found ways to mix Christ in. It was going against what God commanded. Now, Christmas is a time when everyone thinks about gifts, and set up status (idols), and decorated trees (like the pagans used to)… indulging in ungodly practices.
Today, even none Christians celebrate this holiday, and they don't see a difference. We are just blending in with everyone else if we celebrate too.

Please don't get mad… but don't hesitate to give me scripture to back up your arguments. :)

So, are you going to join Dani M. bandwagon about how drums are evil and satanic too? Because that's basically the same thing. She's saying that since they were originally used for pagan ceremonies, that it is wrong to worship God with them. Again, why is it bad? Why is Christmas seen the world over as a specifically Christian holiday if it's so wrong and pagan? Honestly, the Christians in countries that support persecution don't have the time to argue about this; in fact they see Christmas as a wonderful time to celebrate God with one another, and to evangelize. Is it wrong for them to do so?

I notice you still didn't answer my question.

Okay, there is one argument that none of you have presented... I have no argument against it. John 4:21-24 "Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father. Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth." Now what, Sam?

I'm hesitant to use that argument because some would use it to say that it doesn't matter what religion you believe, and that as long as you worship with all your heart, you'll go to heaven. S'obviously not true, but some people do believe it (C.S Lewis for one). Anyhoo, I still haven't heard a valid argument against celebrating Christmas. If we're going to use the "It-was-created-for-sinful-purposes-and-is-now-always-bad" argument, you shouldn't wear flip-flops or listen to music with drums. Again, it is not the tool, but the way you use it that determines its function.

And you delete that post right after you ask me to respond to it?

Do you have scripture to support the veiw that Christmas is the form of worship God desires from us? I say that God can use the most sinful situations to bring about His glory, he does it all the time. That doesn't mean it's wise or pleasing to Him that we take part.

Anyhoo, I still haven't heard a valid argument against celebrating Christmas. If we're going to use the "It-was-created-for-sinful-purposes-and-is-now-always-bad" argument, you shouldn't wear flip-flops or listen to music with drums. Again, it is not the tool, but the way you use it that determines its function.

Lot's of people would say that rock music dosen't belong in the Church at all. In which case it is not dealing with the worship (or celebration) of Christ. In other words, it's a completely different subject.

Anyhoo, I still haven't heard a valid argument against celebrating Christmas. If we're going to use the "It-was-created-for-sinful-purposes-and-is-now-always-bad" argument, you shouldn't wear flip-flops or listen to music with drums. Again, it is not the tool, but the way you use it that determines its function.

Lot's of people would say that rock music dosen't belong in the Church at all. In which case it is not dealing with the worship (or celebration) of Christ.

What if you're using the music for your own personal worship? Would that be acceptable, or not? I'm personally having a hard time believing that lyrics like "There will be no one like You, and no one besides You. You alone are worthy of all praise" shouldn't be used in worship just because they're backed by drums.

I guess not. I just believe that outside of worship it's a completely different subject.

So, my thoughts… I don't celebrate christmas and see no need to. Most of y'all do, and that's perfectly fine with me. I've beenthinking about it and don't know exactly where I stand…except for the above two statements. Because, it's been pointed out to me that many things we do is of worldly origins and used wrongly in the world…so where does one draw the line…? So yeah…

Notice that the winter celebration- solstice- is on Dec. 21.

Here's a video I made about the pros and cons of Christmas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dv2Z0eC4Fvs

Two years ago. Seems like yesterday… and yet so much has charged.

"Has changed," perhaps? ;)