Immortality

Don't worry about coming down hard on me :P This is good for me… And you put it in 4 easy points!!! I love it when the format is nice and organized! :)

Answering Objections:

1: Okay, yeah. I wasn't clear enough in my distinction between finite and infinite beings. I'm not talking about time here with 'infinite' and 'finite' creatures. I'm talking about the creatures. Like the Westminster SHorter Catechism says, God is infinite. He has no end, is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient–all of which tie into his being infinite. We are finite. We have limits to our abilities. God has none. THat's what I mean by inifnite and finite creatures.

1. See above :P Sorry about the mis-communication

2. If God's wrath against each heathen (and Christian whom Christ has covered) is infinite, what happens to GOd's wrath when the sinner dies? Christ covered our sins and GOd's wrath against us completely thanks to his infinite nature. But if all the heathen die, what happens to the "left-over" wrath?

~Josiah, in rebuttal

Genesis 2:15-17: "Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die."
When we read about the fall we see the serpent tempting Eve by saying in Genesis 3: 4-5, "You surely shall not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."
Here we have the set up for what the entire Bible is all about: Can God be trusted?

By saying that everyone is immortal, are we agreeing with the the serpent?

If every man is immortal, why does God say in Genesis 3:22-23, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"– therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.
It appears that God was trying to prevent the sinner from becoming immortal.
It was mentioned that an eternal hell is necessary because of how evil sin is and how holy God is. I agree that sin is more serious than we give it credit for; I also agree that God is holy beyond our imagining because not even men like Daniel, John, etc. could even stand in His presence when they only got a glimpse of His holiness. But here's my question: Because God is so holy, why would He want any part of His universe to have sinners and thus sin be eternally existent?

I think it's okay if I comment very sparingly every few days, so here goes.

Matthew: Let's step back a little for a few minutes.
I believe that we should define our terms clearly before we try to tear each other apart over them. That would have been a good idea several pages ago. But it's never too late to clarify, so I will do so concerning the term/word death:
We must draw our definition from Scripture. The second chapter of Ephesians is an excellent proof text to draw from. Please read that (I don't want to post it all up on here) just to get it fresh on your mind.
Okay… so this text clearly posits that we are currently (if unsaved) dead in our sins. This cannot mean physical deadness. What's the only other interpretation? Spiritual deadness. Sinners are currently spiritually dead.
Colossians 2:12-14 is another great text that posits essentially the same doctrine that the current spiritual state of the unsaved is spoken of as death in the Scriptures.
Now lets turn to another text…Romans 6:23 "For the wages of sin is death…" So now we see that spiritual deadness is a result of sin - the wages of it. This deadness does not entail annihilation (as seen from the parallel use of dead, death, and deadness in Eph. and Col.).

Let's take this back to the fall.
Spiritual death was an immediate result (wage) of the sin in the garden of Eden. Physical death would follow later, though the process of decay was begun immediately.
This spiritual death is not annihilation, so what is it?
In short, separation from God. Let me prove my point:
Before the fall, Adam and Eve walked with God, and had intimate communion with Him. After the fall, a barrier of guilt fell inexorably between them, and they could no longer experience that type of fellowship. (But there was shortly after given a promise of the Seed of the woman who would crush the serpent's head, through Whom we can regain the same level of intimate communion when we are glorified.) That curse has been passed down through natural generation to all men. It is separation from God. Spiritual deadness is separation from God. We cannot commune with God without a Mediator, a go-between. We can't talk face-to-face anymore. That's our current state, and the Bible calls it death.
[We also see in natural death the concept of separation: our body separated from our soul.]
Until physical death, this state of separation from God (death) is mutable, which is to say that God can and does save sinners from this state of death in this present life.
But after the physical death, this sentence of separation from God is rendered unchangeable. The chance for repentance was given in this life, and sinners refused to repent; they will begin to pay the price of their sins against God. This is eternal death, eternal separation from God.That's the state of the wicked in hell; it will be their state in the lake of fire.

Death in the Bible does not carry connotations of annihilation in any way. And if death is the sinner's fate in hell, you must concede the point that this death is separation from communion with God, separation from His love and mercy and grace…forever, not annihilation.

And another thing. Are sinners conscious now on this earth? Yes.
The Bible describes them as dead.
Are sinners spiritually dead in hell as well? Yes.
So they, too, are conscious.

One last thing. The interpretation of death as separation from God makes clear Jesus' words on the cross: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" Jesus was made sin for us, a curse for us; he took our spiritual deadness and suffered the penalty for our sins; He was separated from God!
God forsook Jesus, because He (God the Father) could not commune with sin, with a cursed one; God must punish such. And he did. On top of all the punishment of His peoples sin, Jesus felt that loss of communion. He felt the separation from His Father, so much so that he cried out from the depths of his anguished soul those heart-rending, awful, words: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

I hope I have made it very clear that spiritual death in no way indicates or connotates annihilation; it is separation from God.
Thanks for taking the time to read this long post.
- Octavius

Thank you, Martin. That was a very well-written and thought-provoking post. I believe I can say that I agree with almost everything you said. Except on one point. That is, this. "Are sinners conscious now on this earth? Yes. The Bible describes them as dead. Are sinners spiritually dead in hell as well? Yes. So they, too, are conscious." This one argument sticks out like a sore thumb as an invalid logical argument known as affirming the consequent. Your P is "You are a conscious sinner", and your Q is "You are spiritually dead". You argue, "If P, then Q. Q. Therefore, P." But the truth of statement Q does not at all guarantee the validity of statement P. If Statement P was "It is snowing", and Statement Q is "It is cold outside", then you are saying, "If it is snowing, it must be cold outside. It is cold outside. Therefore, it must be snowing." But it could obviously be cold outside when it was not snowing.

If anybody answers my comment, I want them to answer this. How can the verses following be understood differently than that the wicked will be annihilated?

John 11:25: "He that loveth his life shall LOSE IT…"
Matthew 10:28: "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy BOTH SOUL AND BODY in hell."
Isaiah 10:18: "And shall consume the glory of his forest, and of his fruitful field, BOTH SOUL AND BODY…":
Obadiah 16: "…they shall swallow down, and they shall be as THOUGH THEY HAD NOT BEEN."
Psalm 37:20: "But the wicked shall PERISH, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they CONSUME AWAY."
1 Thessalonians 1:9: "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;"

That last verse also tells us that the wicked will go from the presence of the Lord. Well, isn't the Lord everywhere? How will they go from the presence of the Lord unless they are annihilated?
How else could these verses be interpreted?

Matthew:

I think the key for understanding those verses is twofold. First, we must remember that the Bible is written in human terms. He wrote it for us to understand, and sometimes terminology can be confusing (such as God "changing his mind" or the "sun standing still" when it would have been the earth that stopped rotating.)

Second, I think the key for understanding these verses is the last verse you posted. "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (1 Thes. 1:9) The destruction, as you well noted, is an EVERLASTING destruction. It is eternal. It never stops. I mean, by definition then, this destruction can never stop.

So how can God keep destroying a sinner forever? Well, I don't know exactly what Hell will be like, or how God created it. But I think what it means is that they will be destroyed in terms of earthly terms (maybe like they keep being burned so much in fire that they would have died on earth), but God will continue to keep their bodies alive so that they are in this fiery torment forever, continually being destroyed and yet not allowed to fully die.

Also, some of the verses you posted (like Psalm 37:11 and Obadiah 16), I think are talking about death on earth, not death in Hell

Though I made a comment earlier on this page, let me too thank everyone for letting me in this discussion (even if it's after seven pages worth of debate).

Genesis 2:7 says, "Then the LORD God formed man of the dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being [or soul]." It would appear that life for man is only possible because of God's breathe. Dust plus God's breath equals life for man. Does that life include both the spiritual and the physical - I believe so.

So here's my question: If everlasting destruction or the second death means separation from God (which I agree it does), wouldn't that mean we are separate from His breath, which would mean we return to dust-having neither spiritual or physical life? Life minus God's breath equals dust.

To answer your question BGlad, God would allow the infinite punishment of sinners for their sin, and thus the infinite existence of evil and sin and hell, because He desires to make His power and justice known. Hell vindicates God's righteousness and judgment. This is lost if the sinners in hell eventually cease to exist and are no longer tormented. God is a just God who distributes retribution to sinners who have sinned against His infinitely glorious law, which is an expression of His infinitely holy nature.

By the way, I don't think anyone has ever brought up this point: Is unbelief a sin? If so, won't the sinners in hell be in a perpetual state of sin because they remain unconverted? They continue to reject God throughout their punishment, and thus there is no end to their sinning–all the more reason for their punishment to go on for all time. That's not, however, to discount the fact that one sin is an offense against God's holy nature, and deserves an eternity of conscious retributive punishment by itself.

Hello ChiefOfSinners, thanks for replying to my question. I hope you don't mind if I return some more questions.
How does God tormenting sinners ceaselessly vindicate His righteousness and judgment? Do you have a few Bible verses that I could look up that support this?

The idea that God hates sin so much that He would perpetuate it by torturing sinners without end is illogical to me. If sin is so offensive to Him why would He keep it around forever? To me this paints a picture of Him as a cruel and severe tyrant who finds satisfaction in all sinners' destruction. But I know from Ezekiel 33:11 that God does not paint this picture of Himself: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die?"

Also, why would a just God put sinners in a place where the only thing they could do is sin even more and therefore compound their torment in hell? Is this justice? Does this make God look righteous?

One more thought: In Romans 6:23 Paul says that "the wages of sin is death." Assume with me for a moment that "death" means ceasing to exist, wouldn't God make His power and justice known and vindicate His righteousness and judgment by having sinners cease to exist in hell?

My point is this: I don't believe that the conviction that sinners will one day cease to exist takes away from God's power and justice and righteousness.

Romans 9:22 "What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction," (NKJV)

Sinners' just punishment is an eternity in hell for their crimes. Therefore, by sending them there and punishing them for all eternity, God is vindicating His holiness and justice and righteousness. Not to do so would be for Him to be unrightoeus and unjust.

Why is it that you have such a problem with God justly bringing retribution to wretched sinners, just like we once were, for all eternity, but you don't seem to have any problem with Him saving us and having us live eternally with Him? Which sounds more unjust to you? God could have just given us a lifetime in heaven, and then He could have us cease to exist, but, no, He promises everlasting life! Is that not much more scandalous than everlasting punishment?

I would also add that anything God does is righteous. He cannot be unjust or unrighteous. So the very fact that He does leave sinners to their sin in hell for all eternity is righteous. He adds to their misery by making it known to them that they will never get out. That's what makes hell so hideous. And yet it is just, because it's what God's Word tells us is the just punishment for just one sin.

Um, Matthew…none of your verses really convinced me because, as Octavius said, the Bible never indicates that spiritual death is nonexistence. I don't see that idea anywhere in the Bible.

Your argument against the illogic of Octavius' post kind of makes sense. But frankly, the idea that "eternal destruction" must mean annihilation needs more proof. Plus, according to this website (http://concordances.org/greek/166.htm) the Greek word for "eternal" can mean "unending"…if this is the sense in which it is used in the passage, then it strongly speaks for the eternal-torment position. In fact, it seems like the general, literal meaning of the word is "age-long", which I know you would say refers to the result of the destruction, but I don't really see that. I just don't think you can prove that passage means what you insist it means.

@BGlad: We obviously don't believe that God takes pleasure in the torment of sinners. But at the same time, He most certainly is 100% just and wants to give people what they deserve, and is only satisfied if this is what happens. It's just like how we wouldn't be happy if an unrepentant murderer was let free; even though we wouldn't take pleasure in his punishment, that's the only thing that would satisfy a justice-loving person. And being just does give glory to God, obviously. 2 Timothy 2:20 - "Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable." Every house has containers that are used for the purpose of storing germy garbage and other crude purposes. In the same way, God doesn't only create people only to be glorified, forgiven, redeemed, reborn saints. He also creates some people to be objects of wrath - Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?"
It's not because He delights in their torment. It's because He is "desiring to show His wrath and make known His power".

Yes, I know it's a very harsh truth. But unless you want to dodge around passage after passage, and explain away what verses were clearly meant to mean, it's one you have to accept.

You also say that God couldn't stand the existence of sin, so He would want to simply eliminate it. Well, sure, it's gone…but not really "taken care of", isn't it? It's like sweeping a problem under the rug instead of taking care of it. He needs to do justice. And annihilating people is hardly any punishment at all! Sure, you might be unhappy for a few minutes when you learn you're about to be annihilated, but afterwards, you're nothing. It's eternal non-punishment.

Frankly, though, I don't have any intention to discuss this further. I think it's been made pretty clear through countless Scripture passages and reasoning the truth revealed in 2 Thessalonians 1:5-10:

"5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 10 when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed." (ESV)

Arguing further with false teachers won't get us anywhere. 2 Timothy 2:16-17a: "But avoid irreverent babble, for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their talk will spread like gangrene…"

Matthew - I see your point in answer to my argument, but I wasn't using a P and Q argument. I was pointing out that spiritual deadness and consciousness go along together. Whether in this life or the next, they go together. I see now that I was a little unclear, thanks for pointing that out.

In this modern age of the redefinition of God, I don't find it at all odd that we see many people shunning the doctrine of an eternal hell. Frankly put, the reason is this, in their own words: "God is LOVE, God is LOVE, God is LOVE!!!" But what many fail to see is the root of God's love - His HOLINESS (God is light). God's holiness manifests itself in two ways… 1. He loves righteousness, and 2. He hates unrighteousness: sin.
That second point is often understated or blatantly ignored, thus making clear the reason that so many shirk at an eternal, conscious hell, but find no problem in an eternal, conscious heaven.

Let me provide a few reasons for an eternal hell:

1. As we have seen clearly, again and again, the Scriptures prove it. This isn't much of a point, but centuries of biblical interpretation make it clear that the idea of annihilation is by far the minority position, and has in the past been proven illogical and biblically invalid (particularly by Jonathan Edwards).

2. We as creatures are under an infinite obligation to obey our Creator.
   He made us, told us what to do (glorify Him by obeying His law) and we stick our fist in His face and say "NO!"
   The impudence.
   The total pride and arrogance.
   It should sicken every one of us.
   Because of our total and complete reliance upon Him as our creator and sustainer, and our infinite obligation to obey Him as such, and also because of our total and defiant rejection of His law, an eternal punishment is only just and right.

3. We as creatures sin against an infinite God, another reason for an eternal punishment. When you stole your brother's pencil, your Mom spanked you. When you steal from the bank, the Law spanks you into prison for a few years. When you commit treason, you get fried.
   The punishment due an offender is in direct proportion to the heinousness of the crime itself as well as the nature of the party sinned against.
   In the case of our sins against God, point 2 shows the heinousness of the crime, and we know that God is infinite and eternal; both of these conditions require and necessitate eternal punishment.

4. The damned in hell will never cease their unbelief and blasphemy in hell, entailing continual punishment.

5. God's justice takes these varying things into account and rightly reckons any and every sin as deserving of infinite punishment. But the punished party much be conscious, or else the punishment is no longer punishment, and so His justice demands that the damned be conscious in hell, which is a place of eternal destruction.

I hope that was helpful!

ChiefOfSinners: Thanks for sharing Romans 9:22. My translation (NASB) says in v. 22-23, "What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory," Feel free to tell me if I am misinterpreting this, but these verses seem to emphasize that God is more interested in making His glory known through His patience and mercy than He is in making His wrath known through destruction.

As far as God wanting to save me and give me eternal life, you're right, that is not fair–I most definitely don't deserve that. In fact, I will never stop bragging about the fact that God planned a way to save someone like me! The fact that Jesus laid aside His heavenly glory to take the form of man is a mystery I will be privileged to spend the rest of my days contemplating, and trying to understand how unjust and loving that was for God to do.

But to think that this same God will torture sinners for eternity is something I cannot accept not just because I don't like it but because I don't see that in the Bible. I don't think that it is unjust for God to eliminate sinners from existence; in fact, I think that an unconscious separation from God is still a just and yet horrible and eternal consequence for sin and rebellion. It is both just and merciful, which God has shown over and over that He is capable of doing, for in Psalms 85:10, it says, "Mercy and truth have met together; Righteousness and peace have kissed each other."

Now I am going to take a risk with what I am about to say. Some may read and think I'm a heretic, I may likely get some heated responses from this; but I believe I need to bring this up as defense to the character of the God I read about in the Bible. Assume for a moment that you have a close friend or parent or sibling or spouse or child who spent a life lived in rebellion to God. Would you want to spend an eternity with a God who everyday, without end, is torturing that loved one without hope of redemption. I don't think I could enjoy heaven knowing that the One Who claims to be My heavenly Father was torturing a dear loved one. If I can't even stand the idea of a loved one being tormented without end, how could I think that God, who loved the world so much that He gave His Son to die for it, could stand it either?

Again I ask: Because God is so holy why would He perpetuate something so unholy as sin and eternal torment?

Talia: I would respond to your post, but it would seem that it would only serve to offend you. I promise you that the last thing I want to be is a false teacher who speaks irreverent babble and ungodliness. I pray that we all will continue to seek Him with all our hearts and learn how to let His Spirit lead us into all truth.

No, BGlad, I totally agree with you on your interpretation of the verse. God would much rather save us than punish us. But the point is that He is glorified both ways. And He will choose which way He will have His glory. Who are we to argue with Him. The whole reason He created this world was so that He could 1. demonstrate His power, justice, and wrath by punishing the unrepentant forever in Hell; and 2. glorify His grace, mercy, and compassion by saving His people from their wretched state. He can't do any of those things within His Trinity, so He created a creation with which to demonstrate those attributes.

You say in regard to your view of God's punishing the wicked, He is both just and merciful by annihilating them. Why do you seem to think He is obligated to be merciful? Mercy is not an obligatory attribute of God. Justice is. God HAS to be just. But He never HAS to be merciful. Otherwise it wouldn't be true mercy. None of us deserve mercy by nature, so no one will get it in hell. There is nothing in the Bible that indicates that the wicked are shown mercy in their punishment. The verse you quoted from Psalms is referring to our salvation. "Mercy and truth meet together; Righteousness and peace kiss each other:" God is just in His punishment of Christ, but by punishing Christ on our behalf, He can have mercy on us. Both mercy and justice are shown. But there can be no mercy apart from Christ's sacrifice. Mercy is the withholding of a deserved punishment. How could God possibly still be just when exercising mercy, unless the objects of mercy are covered by the blood of Christ?

I don't think I could enjoy heaven knowing that the One Who claims to be My heavenly Father was torturing a dear loved one. If I can't even stand the idea of a loved one being tormented without end, how could I think that God, who loved the world so much that He gave His Son to die for it, could stand it either?

Many passages in Revelation depict the saints in heaven as rejoicing over the destruction of the wicked. When we are in heaven, we'll see things from God's perspective, and we'll know without a doubt that what He does is just, and we'll be delighted to see His will and His justice carried out. That's not to say that we'll be delighted to know some loved ones are suffering eternally; I think in one sense we'll still have a chance to be sorrowful about that. Otherwise, what tears is God going to wipe away from our eyes? But when it comes down to it, we'll know that it was our God's decision to carry out His retributive justice this way, and we'll know that He has the sovereign right to do so, and in that we will be satisfied.

ChiefOfSinners: It is obvious that we have very different interpretations about why God created the earth, and it also seems apparent that we have a few variances in belief about the character of God. These differences have led us to interpret our "proof" texts for our arguments differently and thus what God will do with the rebellious differently.

Though I disagree with your position, I greatly admire the fact that you stay consistent within your view and your belief system.

"Who are we to argue with God?" is a great and humbling statement of Paul's and of God's in the book of Job. The question is: what is God saying? and in particular what is He saying about hell? We definitely differ in what we think He is saying about hell.

In discussions like these and in our every day life, may each one of us claim the promises in James 1:5, "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all men generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him" and II Corinthians 3:18, "But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit."

While doing some research into this subject I came across Psalm 9:5,6 “Thou hast destroyed the wicked, thou hast put out their name forever and ever. O thou enemy, destructions are come to a perpetual end.”

Any thoughts?

@BGlad: Out of curiosity, if you don't believe that the universe exists entirely for the glory and enjoyment of God (a view which I likewise hold with CoS), then why do you think God created the universe, and what is it's purpose?

~Josiah

Thank you, you have made me glad. I am convinced that I can forget about all this time spent going to church and studying the bible and can return to my former lifestyle. I can indulge myself in the pleasures of the world, I can live my life to the fullest doing whatever I want because I now know that I have nothing to fear after death. I can tell all of my friends and family that they do not need to witness to me or be concerned for my soul because it will just end and not be aware of anything.

Um, guys, I just wanted to drop by again and say that the language in my last post was probably too harsh…false teachers and such…I know we're all just learning and I'm sorry for being harsh rather than gentle. Overall, I stand by the content of what I said, though. I still think the Scriptures are pretty clear in this area. Anyway, I just don't feel like it will be very profitable for me to post further in this topic, so I'm probably not going to. But God bless you all and may all of us come to a deeper understanding of the truth.

Josiah: Thanks for asking this so that I can clarify my statement to CoS. I agree that God created the universe to share and demonstrate His joy and glory with His created beings. What I don't agree with is the idea that God created this earth so that He could demonstrate His wrath. To me this implies that God wanted us to sin so that He could show how amazing He is at punishing people. This sounds like the exact opposite of the way the Bible describes the character of God.

Richard: First, I don't believe that "fire insurance" should be a motivator for trusting God. Romans 2:4 describes a God who wants people to trust Him because of the evidences of His kindness and patience. Second, it saddens me to think that being rebellious on this earth and then becoming nonexistent and without God for eternity is seen to be just as good as living with Him forever. Living with God forever is still infinitely better than becoming nonexistent.

Well, now we're getting into the subject of whether or not God chose some for salvation and chose to pass over others, allowing them to be damned. And I don't think any of us really want the discussion to go that way. I'll just say that on the basis of my belief that God has predestined some to be His people, and that He has passed over others–the "reprobate"–whom He will allow to remain in a state of sin and eventually an eternal hell. The former He works out for the glorification of His mercy and grace. The latter He allows for the glorification of His wrath, justice, and power.

Living with God forever is still infinitely better than becoming nonexistent.

Not to creatures who naturally hate God and live in rebellion to Him as His enemies. The idea of an eternity with a God who demands perfection and hates sin is offensive and deplorable to the unsaved. So if the alternative is nonexistence and annihilation, what reason do they have to second-guess or reevaluate their decision?

BGlad: Okay. I understand what you're saying. I hesitate to say that God created the world for the purpose of demonstrating his wrath. I could see an argument being made for it… But I hesitate to phrase it like that…

BUT, God had to show wrath on some to show that he is a righteous God. After all, if everyone was perfect and no one sinned, we couldn't ever have understood his mercy, justice, wrath, holiness, righteousness, and patience like we do now, as we see him working to redeem sinful man from sin.

CoS: I agree that if someone hates God and His government, they would not enjoy heaven. However, punishment and the threat of punishment have had a poor track record of winning souls as is seen in the history of Israel especially in the wilderness and in the days of the prophets. Because of Israel's experience, I would be surprised if the threat of a never ending hell would cause many to second guess their choices.

Josiah: This is just a thought: But didn't God give enough evidence of His mercy, justice, wrath, righteousness, etc. to convince two-thirds of the angels to trust in Him in spite of Lucifer's brilliant efforts of convincing them otherwise?… and all this before man was in the Garden of Eden?

"After all, if everyone was perfect and no one sinned, we couldn't ever have understood his mercy, justice, wrath, holiness, righteousness, and patience like we do now, as we see him working to redeem sinful man from sin." Now I know I'm about to exaggerate your point, but could your statement imply that God should thank Adam and Eve for sinning so that He could then show those qualities?

Now I know I'm about to exaggerate your point, but could your statement imply that God should thank Adam and Eve for sinning so that He could then show those qualities?

I don't think He would necessarily "thank" them for sinning. But their sin was always in His plan, so that corruption could be brought into the world. Without sin and corruption, what is there to save us from? Only with the introduction of sin could He show His people mercy and grace. And only to rebellious sinners could He demonstrate wrath and justice.

@BGlad: I honestly have no idea about how all the events in heaven leading to the fall of Satan and the throwing down of his minions happened! Or why all the angels didn't just go with him! So I'd have to plead ignorance on answering this question!! :)

I don't think God should thank Adam and Eve for sinning. After all, sin never pleases God. But, as a Calvinist, I also believe that God chose Adam and Eve and that he knew and allowed them to sin by eating the forbidden fruit. And because God, as I believe, predestinated and chose everything, he chose Adam and Eve to sin to further his own glory and reveal himself to his creation.

And so, although we may not understand all the reasons for why God chooses to send some for Hell, I think Scripture clearly teaches that God has appointed many to everlasting wrath (see ROmans 9) and trust that. As Gottfield Leibniz (a French philosopher and mathematician) argued, if God is all good and all powerful, then this world that we live in is "the best of all possible worlds."

CoS and Josiah: To say that God planned sin or chose us to sin is something I cannot say about Him based on what I know of Him from the Bible. I honestly don't know if I could place my trust in a God who would do this. To me saying that God hates sin but was willing to choose us to sin and make a plan with the goal for us to sin makes Him sound like a hypocrite. The Bible never blames sin on God; however it blames Adam quite a bit (see Romans 5:12-21 and I Timothy 2:14 which indicates that Eve was deceived but Adam willingly chose to sin).

I do agree, however, that He knew that sin would come (but not because He chose it or planned it) and thus made a plan to deal with it.

We are definitely beginning to encroach on predestination, which it would appear we differ on that idea as well depending on how we define it. But I suggest we leave that to the other forum.

Sigh. I feel really dumb for making that harsh post. I repent; please forgive me, and I hope I will be able to get over making a fool of myself.

I've been coming to a deeper understanding of things and will try to not be so impulsive in my speech, even if it's in writing! Today, I just read 2 Timothy 2:24-25 (And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kind to everyone, able to teach, patiently enduring evil, 25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth,), and I intend to obey its words.

BGlad, in your last post you said something along the lines of not thinking that the threat of hell would convince more people to obey the gospel, and as such, God wouldn't send people to hell. Not to sound rude, but this seems to sort of be missing the point. Hell can be an evangelistic tool, but that's not it's primary purpose. Its primary purpose is to do justice, which brings glory to God. If I misunderstood you, don't hesitate to correct me.

Ohh boy. It looks like this is going to turn into a Calvinist-Arminianist debate! (For the record, I'm a Calvinist.) It seems like so many things boil down to this one question: "Is God truly sovereign over ALL things (including people) or not?" Frankly, I believe He is and see so many arguments throughout Scripture backing this up. Romans 9 alone contains a wealth of information dealing with this topic. (2 Timothy 2 does too, for that matter.)

CoS and Josiah: To say that God planned sin or chose us to sin is something I cannot say about Him based on what I know of Him from the Bible. I honestly don't know if I could place my trust in a God who would do this.

But the whole point is that He allowed sin so that He could SAVE you from it! Which is more merciful of Him? To create a world in which no one would or could ever sin, so people continuously live in a state of perfection, worshiping Him. Or to create a world and let it fall into sin and corruption so that He could save people out of their state of rebellion and wickedness?

Without sin, grace doesn't make sense! His plan from the beginning was to save sinners, so He had to permit sin into the world. I don't think either Josiah or I is saying that God caused sin or chose us to sin. God is not the author of evil. But at the same time, He IS the sovereign Lord of the universe, so He was in control of it all. And He used sin to accomplish His amazing and excellent purposes.

God is not the author of sin. Just to make that clear. But in his sovereign decree, he decreed that it would happen. He decreed that the splinter you got yesterday would cause exactly as much pain as it did. He decreed that World War II would happen…..he decreed all that and every other sin and evil thing besides. (As well as all the good things, too)

He decreed it.

He did not have to come up with a plan to combat sin, nor did He. He decreed that it would happen, and also decreed how that sin would be destroyed.
All at the same time.
He didn't foresee sin and then come up with a plan. Not at all. He decreed sin and its solution all at once.

God, if he is actually and really God, must have decreed everything that does and is happening (some of which is sin). Nothing happens outside of God's decree. Nothing would happen unless God decreed it.
His decree is an all-at-once thing, revealed through time.

So He decreed sin. What then? Is God the author of sin?

NO. He does not commit sin, neither does he force his creation to sin, because they willingly commit it [in accordance with his decree]. He is not the author of it (ultimately, Satan first committed it, and so was/is the author of it). The Bible does not blame sin on God because God never committed nor will ever commit sin. That is not to say that He did not/could not decree it to happen.

Why did He decree sin?

To show his mercy and grace and love through Jesus Christ our Lord, Savior, King, Redeemer, etc…..
So that He could save us! That's why. If He hadn't decreed sin, we would now be perfect, living with our ancestors and Adam and Eve, worshiping God faultlessly…. walking with God.

Which is all very good.

But we would know nothing of the depth and fulness of his love and mercy and grace and peace through Jesus Christ. We would not know the glorious implications of being united to Christ - because we would always be united to Him, and would know nothing different.
We would not know God's redeeming love!

Through the entrance of sin into the world, we can know all that.
Indirectly, of course, but without sin in the world and in us, we would know nothing of the redeeming love of God! I did not say the half of what we now have in Christ. We will eternally be praising Him for saving us. We would not have that opportunity if there was no sin.
That's part of why God decreed sin.

Another reason is so that He could reveal His holiness, justice, wrath, and hatred of evil. This He accomplishes through various punishments that are the result of sin here on earth, but most fully reveals this justice and wrath and hatred of evil in hell.
One of the reasons that hell is eternal is to remind us eternally of what we are/were saved from. An eternal hell is a constant reminder of what Christ Jesus saved us from, what He bore in our place, what He suffered in our stead. That constant reminder will make our praises always more heartfelt and sincere, always touched with an overtone of extreme thankfulness and intense love.

Do you see how God is given glory through the entrance of sin into the world? Both heaven and hell bring God glory. Of course, the former much more so than the latter, but they both do.
That is the foremost purpose of the creation: to bring glory to God, and it is accomplished in a wonderful way. Though the giving of such great glory may require (regrettably) the entrance of sin and evil - it is the way that brings most glory to God, and we must praise Him for His wisdom.

That's all; I have to go now.

Talia: You don’t need to worry about it; you are forgiven.

“BGlad, in your last post you said something along the lines of not thinking that the threat of hell would convince more people to obey the gospel, and as such, God wouldn't send people to hell” I didn’t mean to imply that God would save everyone. There are too many verses that describe God as giving people over to destruction because of their rebellious hearts. CoS and Octavius II: We most definitely have a different understanding on why and how God created our world; any further discussion of this would probably be better in the “Predestination” forum. Octavius II: What do you mean by “decree”? To me God “decreeing” sin would be a sin (and we all agree that He would never sin). The idea of God creating man so that they would sin in order for God to show His mercy and grace, almost sounds like He caused His “little ones” to stumble, which according to Matthew 18:6 deserves a milestone tied around the neck and an unpleasant drowning experience.

“An eternal hell is a constant reminder of what Christ Jesus saved us from, what He bore in our place, what He suffered in our stead.” I don’t believe we will need a reminder of a hell that continues without end because I believe Jesus’ scars will more than suffice as a reminder of what He did to save us. I believe I am getting to the point where I’m just going to start repeating myself, so for a while, I am going to sit back and observe. I want to thank each of you for listening to my comments and for talking to me so respectfully even though our views differ.

@Octavius: "I was pointing out that spiritual deadness and consciousness go along together. Whether in this life or the next, they go together." This doesn't really make much sense. If they go together, they are one and the same, then by your reasoning since we (Christians) are conscious then we are spiritually dead.
"The damned in hell will never cease their unbelief and blasphemy in hell, entailing continual punishment." This is circular. You are already assuming that people live forever in order to prove your point. The damned in hell WILL cease their unbelief and blasphemy if they are dead.
"…the idea of annihilation is by far the minority position…" Isn't Christianity itself a minority position compared to the rest of the world? Being a minority position doesn't make conditional immortality wrong.

I have heard the rest of your arguments and have already answered them.

No one answered Stephanie concerning Psalm 9:5-6. Octavius, ChiefOfSinners, Josiah, what say ye concerning this passage?

I promised myself I wasn't going to post here anymore, but I just wanted to point out that I don't think he meant that when you are conscious, you are spiritually dead, but that when you are spiritually dead, you are conscious.

He said that they go together. He said himself that he wasn't using a P and Q argument.

@Matthew: To answer this, I'll point back to one of my previous posts:

Matthew: I think the key for understanding those verses is twofold. First, we must remember that the Bible is written in human terms. He wrote it for us to understand, and sometimes terminology can be confusing (such as God "changing his mind" or the "sun standing still" when it would have been the earth that stopped rotating.) Second, I think the key for understanding these verses is the last verse you posted. "Who shall be punished with EVERLASTING DESTRUCTION from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;" (1 Thes. 1:9) The destruction, as you well noted, is an EVERLASTING destruction. It is eternal. It never stops. I mean, by definition then, this destruction can never stop. So how can God keep destroying a sinner forever? Well, I don't know exactly what Hell will be like, or how God created it. But I think what it means is that they will be destroyed in terms of earthly terms (maybe like they keep being burned so much in fire that they would have died on earth), but God will continue to keep their bodies alive so that they are in this fiery torment forever, continually being destroyed and yet not allowed to fully die. Also, some of the verses you posted (like Psalm 37:11 and Obadiah 16), I think are talking about death on earth, not death in Hell

Josiah,
First, what a clever way to dodge all those verses. But I must say, we're not playing dodgeball. My question is, how can "destructions are come to a perpetual end" be interpreted any other way than that destruction will come to a perpetual end?

Second, you said "[God] wrote [the Bible] for us to understand…" I agree with you. So why did God write "destructions are come to a perpetual end" if torment in hell will go on forever? Is that doctrine really so hard to understand?

EDIT: I hope you see the sarcastic tone of my first sentence. Seriously, you could use that argument with any other doctrine you wanted to and call it truth. Let me think of an example… Aha! You could say that God didn't really do what the Bible says He did in Genesis 1; He only outlined it for Moses in terms that humans could understand since we really couldn't understand what He actually did to create the world.
God did write the Bible for us to understand. However, we should not use this fact to nullify anything the Bible says that we don't like.

I would answer the same to you, Matthew. Is the doctrine of eternal punishment really so hard to understand? We should not nullify anything the Bible says that we don't like.

We have Psalm 9:5-6, and we have Revelation 14:11. One or the other has to be reinterpreted, or the Bible contradicts itself. You have already heard my reinterpretation of Revelation 14:11. I would like to hear yours for Psalm 9:5-6 (and for all the other verses I gave that Josiah skillfully dodged).

Josiah's "skillful dodging" is about as good as you're going to get from me or anyone else. You just won't accept it. Yes, there are difficult passages that may seem to connotate cessation of existence. But there are many more problem passages for you than for us. And we have God-given logic and systematic theology on our side. It's you who needs to give us some satisfying interpretations of passages.

Revelation 14:11 was NOT successfully "reinterpreted" by you. There is no way you can get any of us to believe that when the Bible says, "The smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" and "they have no rest day or night" it doesn't mean forever and ever. And Revelation 20:10 is even more clear: "and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

It's going to take you day and night, forever and ever to convince me that day and night forever and ever doesn't mean day and night forever and ever. ;)

Your silence to my pleas for reinterpretations only cements in my mind that there is none. However, If I can't convince you, I'll quit trying, unless I find new arguments to support my belief. Bye.

Around and around we go. I bowed out of this discussion awhile ago but out of some "morbid " curiosity I had to look again.
And lo and behold. You know that some of those words that say everlasting are in the Greek as eons or age,s and yet you continually bring up the English translation, as ever and ever, thinking that they mean with out end or eternal.

For instance let me ask you a question . Remember Babylon the great that's burned with fire in Rev 18 ?
Check this out, you gave the verse from Rev 14:11 in regards to everlasting punishment, but Babylon, which, here is the reference, Rev 19 :3 say's " And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever." Guess what ? This is before the new heaven and new earth, it May smoke through the Millennial age, but when God remakes the surface of the earth ,its going to stop smoking cause it will be um …. Gone!

So thus ends the age of the Millennium and ushers in a new age.

So how can it smoke forever and ever if its gone?

Those of you who think you know the righteousness of God and what will bring him Glory are a bit presumptuous, don't you think?

I had to throw that in there for those who think that wrath is the crowning glory of God.

God doesn't need to torture pipsqueak man eternally to be glorified or to feel good about himself.

@Matthew: Well, I like dodgeball ;)

Seriously, though–about destructions coming to a perpetual end. THis has nothing to do with the wicked's death. If you look at the context, it's speaking of the wicked destroying cities. And God's saying–they aren't going to be doing it anymore! The wicked are going to stop destroying cities. THis isn't talking about Hell.

It can smoke forever and ever because it's not a literal city. No literal city of Babylon is going to smoke forever and ever. The world system is going to be demolished, and it will never again be built up. Thus it's destruction will be known forever and ever, and the figurative smoke will ever be rising and reminding the righteous of what they've been saved from.

No one said that wrath is the crowning glory of God. It's not even theologically recognized as one of His attributes. But it is a way He expresses Himself, and it is a way He gets glory–a way He desires to get glory. So He punishes the wicked forever in order to demonstrate that attribute and vindicate His justice forever. It would be unjust for Him not to punish the wicked forever, so He must do it, and thereby vindicate His righteousness and holiness.

Also, Johnproject, I think that the important thing here is to realize how terrible sin is. Sin is an utter act of rebellion and hatred against God. Once we realize how terrible sin is, we can realize why man deserves to suffer eternally for it. To do otherwise would be like a judge giving a mass-murderer only a one-day prison sentence instead of the death penalty. To do so for the judge would dishonor his name. Instead, the judge is honored when he gives the just punishment for the mass-murderer: the death penalty (or a life-time prison sentence, but I have a thing against America's comfy prisons). In the same way, sin against God deserves eternal wrath. And so to show his justice and righteousness, God must give them the full punishment of his wrath.

"God doesn't need to torture pipsqueak man eternally to be glorified or to feel good about himself."

God does NOT need to "feel good about himself" at all, and we have never said that He does. However, tormenting man forever in hell is necessary for His justice to be fulfilled! As we have said before, since sin, no matter how small (but no sin is small anyway), is against an infinitely holy God, it deserves an infinite punishment! Tell me where our logic is faulty here! Also, if the Greek word means "eons or ages," why did no translator of the Bible, even the most word-for-word ones, stay true to the text? Did they just decide that "eternal" was a better word? Obviously not. Also, Strong's concordance gives the Greek word for "forever and ever" in Revelation 20:10 the number 165, so I looked that up in a Greek lexicon (on biblos.com–the greatest website EVER for Bible study!!), and the word is "aión," which means "an age, a cycle (of time), especially of the present age as contrasted with the future age, and of one of a series of ages stretching to infinity." So, when it says "forever" once, you could possibly make that argument. Possibly. But when it says "forever and ever," it is referring to a continual cycle of time, which will never be stopped.

@Matthew–I don't see how you are saying we are dodging your arguments. Josiah gave you ample information to answer your supposed proof texts.

"Seriously, though–about destructions coming to a perpetual end. THis has nothing to do with the wicked's death. If you look at the context, it's speaking of the wicked destroying cities. And God's saying–they aren't going to be doing it anymore! The wicked are going to stop destroying cities. THis isn't talking about Hell."

Can you explain to me why you think this is talking about the wicked destroying cities? I don't see this as the context for this verse at all. It does talk about God destroying the cities (vs. 6) but from what I see, the context of the first half of the chapter seems to be focusing on what God is going to do to the wicked, not what the wicked have been doing.

@Stephanie Gladding

…this is where I suddenly realize that I misplaced the pronoun 'you' and failed my grammar check… >.<

You are correct. It's talking about God, not the wicked, having done it. Ignore my previous answer.

After further examination, my reply to this verse is the same as the others. They're going to be destroyed and, in a sense, wiped away from OUR memories. But we also must realize this is not completely literal. Whether or not they are continually destroyed in Hell or destroyed once and gone, if we still remember our life on earth (which I believe we will remember in heaven!), we'll remember them.

I think this passage is saying that they'll be so completely broken and gone that the earth will not remember them in the sense that they are defeated. Their reign is over. And so, in light of passages speaking of the wicked's destruction as eternal, the wicked here are going to be eternally destroyed in Hell.

Alright, guys. New argument here.

In Genesis 3:22, God says "…Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever…" Because sinners, by definition, have sinned, God does not want them to live forever. Notice in this passage it does not say "have eternal life", which you have interpreted as applied only to the righteous' reward in heaven (and I don't necessarily disagree with you). It simply says "live forever". "…lest he…live for ever…" This verse speaks clearly to me that God does not want man in his sinful state to live forever. Not even in hell.

Oh, and while I'm on here, here are two more verses. Nahum 1:9: "…[the LORD] will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time." Malachi 4:1: "…the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

Wasn't this passage speaking on living forever in the physical realm?

Nahum 1:9 in the NIV–"Whatever they plot against the Lord he will bring to an end; trouble will not come a second time." This doesn't sound like the Lord annihilating the wicked to me, but destroying their means of causing trouble and affliction. Malachi 4:1–"'Surely the day is coming; it will burn like a furnace. All the arrogant and every evildoer will be stubble, and that day that is coming will set them on fire,' says the Lord Almighty. 'Not a root or a branch will be left to them." This is not talking about burning up (see the original Hebrew at http://biblos.com/malachi/4-1.htm), but about being set on fire.

And even if it did say, "they shall be burned up," as we have said before, this does not mean annihilation. If it did, it would not fit with the rest of Scripture, so we must conclude that it is at least somewhat symbolic. It certainly involves the destruction of God's enemies, but He will not forget His justice when He destroys them, which demands that they be punished eternally.

And as for Genesis 3:22, I agree with SoulWinner, that was not talking about spiritual life, or it would have said "eternal life." It was talking about living forever physically in a "heaven on earth" type of situation, since they had direct communion with God. Was it only by eating from the tree that they would live forever spiritually? Would they not have the direct communion with God otherwise? Highly unlikely.

And I'd still like to hear that answer to my question about justice. How is it that you can say that man does not deserve eternal torment when his sin is against an infinitely holy God?

I receive the quarterly Answers Creation Magazine published by Answers in Genesis, and they posted a very interesting question… What kind of a God wouldn't punish sinners eternally? What say ye?