Immortality

Oh, I got that magazine too… maybe I could find a link to the article…

Okay, I found it. Here it is:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v7/n3/eternal-torment

Hope this sums up our arguments well.

Why are the same words used to describe God as eternal also used to describe Hell as eternal?

Wasn't this passage speaking on living forever in the physical realm?

@SoulWinner: Oh, is that what you are saying?
Heaven and hell aren't physical places?
I think I finally understand where the apparent contradiction in your view is coming from!
I believe that heaven and hell are real physical places. They certainly are described in the Bible as physical and spiritual places. Setting aside for the moment the arguments for eternal torment in hell, why else do you believe that heaven and hell are merely spiritual?

Also, can you give me a specific instance where the Bible describes both God and hell with the same word? I'm not denying that there's any, I simply don't know of any.

@Nicolas: We receive Answers Magazine as well, so I got to read the article. Most of what it said only echoed what you have said in the past months. So, unless you want to hear any specific answers to specific statements in the article, I won't make a long discussion out of it.

"How is it that you can say that man does not deserve eternal torment when his sin is against an infinitely holy God?" Although I think I have already answered this question indirectly, I will answer it directly as you asked. My answer is in two parts:

1. Isn't God the One Who decides on the just punishment for sin? And He says that the wages of sin is death. I know, I know, "death does not mean annihilation"; but turning the argument around, can death really mean eternal torment? And even if death doesn't mean annihilation, doesn't this verse clearly speak of annihilation? "But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away." Psalm 37:20
2. Put yourself in the Lord's position for a moment. Why did God create the world? So that He could have someone to fellowship with. But why would He create it if He knew that some of them would reject Him and thus [justly - as you say] be tormented for eternity? If I were God, I would not like to see my creation suffer like that. I would rather just get rid of the people who sin against me than torment them for eternity. So why doesn't He get rid of them now? Two reasons: 1) Some of the rebellious people will accept God later in their life. 2) The rest of the wicked are kept in existence because God is using them to test His followers and ultimately make them perfect. But once the wicked are burning in hell, neither of these reasons are valid any more.

"And even if it did say, "they shall be burned up," as we have said before, this does not mean annihilation. If it did, it would not fit with the rest of Scripture, so we must conclude that it is at least somewhat symbolic." This means nothing to me. I have already said the same thing to you. The difference is, I have given a practical way as to how your verses can be reinterpreted. But you haven't given me anything concrete, only "God wrote the Bible for us to understand", or "They must be symbolic because they don't fit with the rest of Scripture". But you haven't told me HOW they are symbolic, just that they are symbolic.

so just reading through this long topic :) and noticed one part that does not seem to have been answered by anyone. the topic of how this related to evangelism, discipleship and the Great Commission. Have any of you heard of the site Living Waters (the Way of the Master) ? It is a neat website with some wonderful resources for evangelism.

If I were God, I would not like to see my creation suffer like that. I would rather just get rid of the people who sinned against me than torment them for eternity.

That is if you were God. But God is the One Who decides how He will punish the wicked in the end; it doesn't matter what you would do if you were Him. You even said that God is the One Who decides.

1. Isn't God the One Who decides on the just punishment for sin?

"How is it that you can say that man does not deserve eternal torment when his sin is against an infinitely holy God?" Although I think I have already answered this question indirectly, I will answer it directly as you asked.

I'm pretty sure that we gave you a verse. "The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented night and day forever and ever." Revelation 20:10 Can you explain this for me? Thanks.

Oh boy. I thought I was done here for the day until I saw this comment… ;)

To answer for SoulWinner, I think you know that that is not at all what he meant. What he meant was that it seemed like the passage was speaking about life on earth. He did not say that heaven and hell are not physical places.

As for your answer to me, I'll begin with your first point: "Isn't God the One Who decides on the just punishment for sin? And He says that the wages of sin is death. I know, I know, 'death does not mean annihilation'; but turning the argument around, can death really mean eternal torment? And even if death doesn't mean annihilation, doesn't this verse clearly speak of annihilation? 'But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.' Psalm 37:20"

Yes, I do believe that God decides what the just punishment for sin is–what goes along with His justice! The wages of sin IS death, but it is neither of the "deaths" you described. We did not say that the "death" in that verse was hell, but it is describing spiritual deadness due to sin. I don't think hell has anything to do with that verse. As for Psalm 37:20, it is not speaking of annihilation. The wicked WILL consume away–but will not ever be gone. They will consume away until God's justice is fulfilled–at the "end" of eternity, which will really never come. You said rightly that God is the One Who decides on the just punishment for sin. But that does not mean that God just chooses whatever He wants His attributes to be like. He cannot go against what His attributes have always been. So then, for example, He could not just decide that His justice means that He allows all to come into heaven just because He wants them to, even though they have sinned. His justice demands that He eternally punish the guilty, for they have committed eternal grievances against Him. The grievances are eternal because they are against an eternal God. Yes, I am a broken record on this, because you don't seem to understand that this solves our arguments.

Point #2: "Put yourself in the Lord's position for a moment. Why did God create the world? So that He could have someone to fellowship with. But why would He create it if He knew that some of them would reject Him and thus [justly - as you say] be tormented for eternity? If I were God, I would not like to see my creation suffer like that. I would rather just get rid of the people who sin against me than torment them for eternity. So why doesn't He get rid of them now? Two reasons: 1) Some of the rebellious people will accept God later in their life. 2) The rest of the wicked are kept in existence because God is using them to test His followers and ultimately make them perfect. But once the wicked are burning in hell, neither of these reasons are valid any more."

Put myself in the Lord's position? Boy, that's a scary thought. :D But anyway, you saying that if you were God, you would not like to see your creation suffer like that, is right. God does not like to see His creation suffer, but that is what He demands in order to get glory for Himself. When He saves a sinner, He gets glory because His grace and mercy are uplifted. When He punishes a sinner, He gets glory because His justice and wrath are uplifted. In order to be fully glorified, which was His purpose in creating the universe, He must fulfill all of His attributes. And He does, in both sending a saved sinner to heaven, and in sending a sinner to hell. But, as I have been saying, hell must be eternal in order for His attribute of justice to be glorified. If hell is not eternal, is part of God no longer glorified? That's ridiculous.

With your two reasons for why God does not get rid of the wicked now, I fully agree with both, and with the sentence after them. I don't see how that is supposed to somehow make our previous comments void. 2 Peter 3:8: "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance." God is waiting for all of the elect to be saved, then he will come to judge the world. I totally agree.

As for your response to my comment explaining Malachi 4:1, I don't see why it means nothing to you. I explained that the verse did not say "be burned up," but said "be set on fire" in the original Hebrew. It is not being symbolic. I said that IF IT DID SAY THAT, it would have to be symbolic. But it does not say that. And what do you mean, "you haven't told me HOW they are symbolic"? Is there a way to explain how something is symbolic? I think that one can only say THAT something is symbolic, not HOW it is. Maybe you meant that I did not say what it is symbolizing. If so, it would have to be symbolizing, in human terms, the endless torment of the wicked.

Sorry for the very long comment–please read all of it if you can! :)

Wow! That is what I meant to say and I was going to say exactly what you said(except much shorter). :)

Great passage, Leah. :) Notice that the same Greek adjective is used for "punishment" and "life"… sounds like they're both the same amount of time to me!

Read through the Bible…believers will be in heaven for eternity and unbelievers will be in hell for eternity.

Agreed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh really? Read through what bible? Hell is not even eternal, read revelation (yes, that's in the bible…its towards the end) where hell will be cast into the lake of fire.

AND, believers won't always be in heaven either. what about the millennium?

Revelation 20:14 (ESV) Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

This says that death is cast into the lake of fire, what we call hell, at this point then it does last forever, I personally think that eternity has no beginning and no end, so saying it is eternal may be gramatically incorrect. Hell is the everlasting punishment for offence against an eternal God.

Daniel 7:18 (ESV) But the saints of the Most High shall receive the kingdom and possess the kingdom forever, forever and ever.

Heaven, or the Kingdom of God, whether it be on earth or elsewhere is everlasting as well.

Kingdom of god = heaven? Really? Can you clarify? Thanks

Yes, really! Read through THE Bible! And just to let you know, I do know where Revelation is!
Defintion of eternal: Lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.
Defintion of eternity: Infinite or unending time
Definition of forever: For all future time; for always

Can you please give me some verses that say believers won't be in heaven for eternity? Could you please give me some verses that say that unbelievers won't be in hell for eternity?

Matthew 25:46 - And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life
Mark 10:30 - who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life
Matthew 18:18 - And if your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life crippled or lame than with two hands or two feet to be thrown into the eternal fire
Titus 1:2 - in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began.
Revelation 20:10 - and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

@biblebee: I might be wrong here (and I apologize if I am needlessly jumping in here), but I believe what C4C is saying is that unbelievers will be punished for eternity, but not necessarily in Hell. I believe he means that Hell and the lake of fire are different entities (both used, however, as means of punishment). The Bible, I don't believe, specifies that Hell will be where sinners will be punished forever. Yes, they certainly will be punished there, the Bible is ABSOLUTELY clear on that point, but the question lies in whether casting them into the lake of fire constitutes a simple transfer from one part of Hell to another, or a move from one form of punishment (Hell) to another (the lake of fire), if that makes sense. :)

Please correct me if I am wrong in presenting your argument, C4C. I am just trying to clarify a bit here. :)

By way of clarification, my own views are as follows: Heaven is absolutely eternal. As the abode of God, it will never pass away. The milennium is the exception, I believe, to the rule that all Christians will be in Heaven constantly. God clearly states in Revelation that those who have died for His name will rule in the new Heaven and the new earth. This does not mean, however, that Heaven is destroyed in the interim. Heaven will still exist (I believe that many believers and even, perhaps, angels will still abide there throughout the milennium <– don't necessarily quote me on that. I am not an expert) to be reinhabited by all of Go's followers after the milennium. Likewise, Hell will also be forever, not to be destroyed. I believe, however, that there is a subtle difference between Hell and the lake of fire. Hell is the kingdom of Satan, and as such he cannot really be tormented there (at least, my understanding of the Bible seems to suggest that). In the Lake of fire, however, he can. God's casting unbelievers, Satan, and the anti-Christ into the lake of fire betokens a transfer from one place to another. I believe, therefore, that Hell and the Lake of Fire are different (again, I am not basing my whole theology on this), but both are used by God as a way of administering eternal punishment.

@jimmy: I think you meant to say that unbelievers will be punished for eternity. Yes, that makes sense.

Sorry, I should say that the kingdom of God is everlasting, and believers are part of the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God forever. However I should not say that it is the same as heaven and that believers will be in 'heaven' always, but that shoulden't matter to them, because they are in the kingdom of their perfect LORD and King.

The last two posts are a sobering reminder that the Disney channel is influencing Americans.

I don't know where to start to respond. You're obviously still in elementary school theology, still not even grasping the concept that things that are DIFFERENT are NOT the SAME.

The kingdom of God is not the kingdo.m of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is not the kingdom of God. To say otherwise is is to pervert the Bible

Very good post Jimmy. Yes, we agree on the fundamental doctrine that man's soul is eternal. All I was trying to say was thay the posted that erroneously stated that believers will be in heaven for eternity, and unbelievers will be in hell for eternity is Biblicaly bankrupt. What about paradise? What about the millennium? What about the new heaven abd new earth? And concerning hell, the Bible is very clear that hell is not eternal. We know that hell will be cast into the lake of fire. We kniw that hell is located in the center of the earth, and we know that this earth will someday melt with fervent heat.
Bottom line: the statement I am refuting has less to do with the Bible then nuclear physics.

Ummm…Hell is in the center of the earth??? Where did you find that?!

Also, please do not say that we are affected by disney or that we are still in elementary school of theology, even if we disagree with you!

I got that from my ole King James Bible my friend. And, like everthing in the Bible it's true. Go visit the Bermuda triangle, if you don't believe the Bible. Even secular scientests findings agree with the Bible, finding that the center of is constant fire.

My comment about elememtary school theology was concerning your absurd some absurd statements said about the kingdom of God vs. yhe kingdom of heaven. However, the responses to my post about hell further justified that. I know where the verses are to back up what I said. If you've never read them that's your problem, not mine.

I am looking forward to your response regarding the kingdom of God vs. kingdom of heaven.

@RedeemedbyChrist: Please do not joke about C4C being affected by disney. I do not appreciate that he said that about us so please don't joke about it. Thank you.

@Cowboy4Christ: I do believe the Bible and I am trying to seek to understand it better. Again, please do not make such mean comments about us even if we do not agree with you. I am simply asking for verses that prove that hell is in the center of the earth. When anyone is in a discussion like this they need to give different verses to prove what they believe. Please give me verses that say that hell is in the center of the earth. I am sorry if I am coming across harsh or otherwise unpolite. I am just seeking to understand the Bible better through this but I would like if we could have a nice conversation rather than make mean comments about others. Again, I am sorry if I came across harsh.

As to the kingdom of God vs. the kingdom of heaven. I must study that further to fully see what the Bible says.

Hey, C4C. :) I just decided to post here because I have never heard anyone who holds to the views that you hold to. I'd like to see the verses that you have to prove the statements you have been making–like the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God being different things, hell being in the center of the earth, and heaven not being eternal. Rather than just telling people that it's their own problem that they don't know why you believe what you believe, along with telling them that they must be influenced by the world, could you please just show us the verses that support your beliefs? Thanks.

@SBG I think that I agree with you mostly here.
@C4C I think that my second post here clarified that I don't believe that two different things are the same.
As for saying that someone is affected by disney tv or that they are Elementary in their beliefs, is an ad hominem attack, I don't mind you saying that I am Elementary in my Spiritual beliefs, because I believe that it is true and most of us are. However I think the context with which it was used was wrong, (you can correct me on this point) but it seems that this was done in a way that said 'because you don't believe the way I do, you must be a less mature christian than I am'
I actually hope that this is not what you had in mind, but that is what seemed to come out.
I don't watch disney tv. And to my knowledge they don't affect my spiritual beliefs, though I have watched movies done by them.
If however what I have been saying is a misbelief propegated by disney, please correct me, with scripture.
I really don't care what you think, and that is a good thing, you shouldn't care much what I think either, I do care however what the Bible says, because the Word of an Eternal Allpowerful God is what really matters.1Corinthians 2:5.

As far as I know it would be presumptuous to say where Hell is, I don't find the Bible explaining this the way you say, so clarification as to where (in the Bible) you find this would be appreciated.

PC, I would reccomend you look up "longsuffering" in the Bible. You might gain some insight as to what that means. the way you just ised it totally butchers the meaning.

let clarify on my comment about disney. i didn't say that to "feel good", or insult anyone. It wad meant as a joke, i am sorry it was taken seriously. Calm down down guys, mickey mouse isn't on memverse:)

@C4C: Please do not joke about that. Thank you. Could you please give us verses to back up what you believe?

Let me clarify, someone makes a joke you don't like, and you respond back rather rudely, and that's being longsuffering. The Bible talks of longsuffering in a context of being persecuted for our faith, etc. I thing someone like Paul who was stoned multile times longsuffering. Note that he didn't make any snide remarks or throw any stones back, either. I'd consider someone like Jesus who willfully wad crucified. for pur sins and returned no evil opening not his mouth to reville his accusets. We Americans have this idea that if someone makes a joke wr disagree with we're suffering some great trial and being longsuffering. But that shouldn't be a Christian's attitude. The Bible says great peace have they which love thy law and NOTHING. shall offend tbem. That includes a joke you don't like.

Sorry guys…ill try to stay away from humor in the future…i understandthat the wrong tone can be implied through type, and people can take it the wrong way.

a few of you have stated that i, (c4c) am disagreeing with you. however, that is simply not tbe case. there is right and wrong, true and false. when you stated that the kingdom of god and the kingdom of heaven are the same, that is simply not true. if you could prove that boblically, that would be great. These are not my belives, or my words, but the Bible. wheb i tell an athiest that jesus christ is the onlyvway ro heaven, and he responds saying whatever one believes is rht, he's wrong. Sbg stated that i said that heaven was not eternal. however, that is a straw man of my argument, because i simply stated that belivets will not always be in heaven. The millennium is a good example. We also know that hell will be cast into the lake of fire, thetefore it is not eternal!

Concerning the traditional view that Christians have believed for thousands of years on the location of hell, that it is in the center of the earyh, where do you think it is?

@C4C Humor sometimes is unfortunately taken ill. I'm sorry I didn't see what you said as being humor.
As far as I could see nothing PC said in the preceeding few comments could be taken as rude except by someone very sensitive.

If you have somthing against anything I say, I would reccomend that you adress me specifically (right now I am not saying someone has done this, but if not directed someone may be offended when they think they are the ones being referred to, when they are not.)

I do disagree with your view about the location of hell, I find no place in the Bible where this is said, but this is not an essential doctrine.
As for it being a view that was held by Christians for many years, it would be worth considering, but people are fallible, for a long time people thought that the world was flat, that the moon was made of cheese(maybe only some) lol, that potatoes were poisoness, and that bleeding people was a way to cure them.
Some of theses issues were even adressed in the Bible but superstition or tradition overrode what they read. e.g. Isaiah 40:22, and Job 26:7 deal with the flat earth, and Deuteronomy 12:23 and Leviticus 17:11, deal with the blood issue.
All that(my talking) to say that people are fallible but the scripture is not, somthing I'm sure you already agree with.

Read epesians four concerning hell. Btw, paradis is also in the earth:)

Its interesting that people today teach there is no hell, when the bible even tells us its physical location!

@C4C: I don't know where hell is located. So are you saying that the lower parts of the earth is the center and that is hell?

I believe that there is a literal hell, I'm not sure I believe that it is on earth, I read the Eph 4 passage, and looked at the greek words, and from what I saw I conclude that the passage is describing the assent of Christ into heaven, and the nessesitative preceeding descent from heaven to earth, which in some translations is the 'lower parts of the earth' . My veiw is that this is Christ's first coming to earth, not his visiting hell, but you may be right.

Are there any more passages that you have based this on, if so I would be interested in seeing them.
You said that paradise is on earth, where on earth? and where do you come up with this?

According to your beliefs, is the ceter of the earth (hell), where the souls of sinners go until judgment. And paradise where the souls of believers would go?
Thanks.

Psalm 119: 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

Thanks for posting that vetse for me!

Sorry I assummed you knew that, PC…

I think that verse along with countless others describing hell is pretty self explanitory.

You also stated that belivers will always be in heaven. i brougjt up the millennium and paradise. i am looking forward to your responsr regarding that and the kingdom of god vs kingdom of heaven you stated to be the same. thanks

So is that first part your answer to me or were you talking to biblebee?

I am sorry if it seemed that I was making a straw man of your argument–I did not mean to. It just seemed from what you said that you thought that heaven is not eternal; but if that is not so, I'm sorry for saying that you thought it was not. :)
Anyway, I'd still like to see the reason you believe these things. It seemed that you decided not to answer my question with verses, as I requested, because the things you believe are so obvious from the Bible that you do not even need to show the verses. (Again, if I misunderstood you, I'm sorry.) I would really appreciate it if you posted some verses to prove the things you have been saying, so I can know why you believe what you believe. Thanks again. :)

I think that Ephesians 4 is saying how Christ came to earth from heaven. Though I could be wrong. Could you please give me more verses that say that hell is in the center. Also I never said anything about the kingdom of God vs. the kingdom of heaven. But I will study that some and let you know what I think.

Luke 23: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me IN PARADISE.

Matt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH.

Luke 16:19-31.
23 And IN HELL he LIFT UP his eyes, being in torments, and SEETH Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a GREAT GULF fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.

So there was a Great gulf between Paradise and the Hell in the heart of the earth meaning the Heart of the earth Then consisted of two parts.

Eph 4:8-10
Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the LOWER PARTS of the Earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

2 Corin 12:2,4
"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the THIRD HEAVEN."
4 "How that he was CAUGHT UP into PARADISE, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter."

From the above verses, we understand that Paradise now exists in heaven and not in the heart of the earth, the transition being said in Eph 4.

Matt 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the KINGDOM OF HEAVEN, but to them it is not given.

Jesus told parables of Kingdom of Heaven in this 13th chapter.
In the Kingdom of Heaven there are good ones and bad ones - at the end the good ones are gathered unto life eternal and the bad ones are gathered to be burned.

Kingdom of Heaven refers to Christendom.

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the KINGDOM OF GOD.

Rom 14:17 For the Kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
The Kingdom of God thus refers to the people born of God - the good ones in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Kingdom of God refers to Christianity.

Hope my two comments here will be helpful.
(I use caps only for emphasis)

Very good post! Another thing that's interesting to not how many times the word "down" proceeds the word "hell" in the Bible.

What is your definition of "Christendom"? Excuse my ignorance of the word!

According to scripture, the Kingdom of God is everlasting, and the Kingdom of Heaven is 1000 years. The Kingdom of God is within you, the Kingdom of Heaven is Jesus physically on the throne reigning for 1000 years. The Kingdom of Heaven was offered to the jewish nation in matthew, bur they rejected their messiah and it was postphoned.

I would reccomend you read through alll the times hell is mentioned in the Bible, its a very exciting study. However, my statement about helll's location was only one of my points refuting your statement that belivers will always be in heaven, and unbelievets always in hell. Actually, the location of hell was just further proof, but not essential. to disprove your statement Biblically. Concerning belivers akways being in heaven, i brought up the millennium and paradise, and how scripture condradicts your statement in those two examples. Concerning unbelievers always being in hell, i brought up where the bible says that hell will be cast into the lake of fire in revelation. 20.

The bottom line: we don't have to agree on the location of hell to understand that your statement is not biblically correct.

Edited: Yes there are verses conveying the meaning that the hell is down like
Amos 9:2 , Luke 10:15. But I do not know how many times it is said.

Christendom = The worldwide body of Christians (which has true believers as well as false believers)

Millennial Reign of Christ is referred to the peaceable 'Kingdom of Christ' -Isaiah 11.

Since the kingdom of heaven is the earthly sphere of the universal kingdom of God, the two have Almost all things in common.

Matthew in his gospel often refer 'Kingdom of Heaven' and one may study the parables in the gospel for clarification.

Luke in the gospel refer to 'Kingdom of God' and one may study the parables under it to find the difference.

The kingdom of heaven merges into the kingdom of God when Christ, "put all enemies under His feet," and "when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God" (1 Corin 15:24-28).

Thus the Kingdom of Heaven also signifies the Messianic earth rule of Jesus Christ, the Son of David.
Israel rejected Christ as their Messiah and so the Kingdom of heaven was put off by the now existing 'grace period'.

Also, I agree the Kingdom of God is within us and that Kingdom of God is eternal.

I'll just pop in here one more time (though, this may not be the last time). :)

First, I'd like to say briefly–though maybe this isn't necessary to say–that I don't believe that the Bible is clear anywhere on the present location of hell. PC brought up Matthew 12:40, where it speaks of Jesus being in the heart of the earth for three days. Well, for one, I don't believe that Jesus went to hell while he was dead. (But that's another discussion for another time.) Also, I believe that by "the heart of the earth," the passage is referring to the location of Christ's physical body in the tomb during those three days. Anyway, that point didn't really need to be made, but I just thought I'd make it anyway. :)

The main point of my commenting here is to ask C4C once more for some verses to back up his views. I have asked for them twice before, but still have not seen any; and I would really appreciate it if you would support some of the statements you've made with chapter and verse, if you don't mind. Thanks once more. :)

EDIT–Sorry, one more thing. :) Another of my personal views is that the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are the same thing. I believe this mainly because "the kingdom of heaven" is a phrase only found in Matthew's gospel. And the reason for this, I have heard, is because of Matthew's Jewish readers (and the Jews were the ones he was mainly intending to read his gospel at first): they believed that the name of God should be used as little as possible, to avoid an accidental irreverent usage of the name of the Lord. Thus, Matthew replaced "the kingdom of God" in many places with "the kingdom of heaven" so as not to offend any of his Jewish readers. That's my view on the subject; I'd like to hear more on your view, if it's no trouble. :)

@SBG: I agree :D