Is it Right to Kill Someone?

In the ten commandments we read, "Thou shalt not kill", but we also read in Exodus 22:2: "If a thief be found breaking up, and be smitten that he die, there shall no blood be shed for him." What about in self defense, or to save others?

Discuss!

What do you guys think about killing in war? Thanks.

It must not be wrong to kill in all cases, since God actually commanded the Israelites on several occasions to kill…even women and children.

I look at it this way: If a man broke into our house at night, and he had a gun, and he shot one of my family members, I can guarantee that my dad would do pretty much whatever he needed to in order to keep the guy from shooting anyone else–especially if it looked like that was his intent. My dad wouldn't just stand idly by in the name of "turning the other cheek" and let him kill us.

"Love always protects." "Blessed are the peacemakers." If fighting in a war is what is necessary to protect someone, or if it's the only way to obtain peace, then I don't believe it is wrong.

Thanks for the reply.
Even if your Dad would do that does that mean it is right? Do you have any scripture? Thanks

What about Romans 12:9
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.

And also in one of the epistles of Peter it says about Jesus
Who when he was reviled reviled not again… setting us an example that ye should follow his steps. And in the old testament it does say in

Ex 22:2 that if you kill a theft at night your fine but we are under the New covenant which is NOT eye for an eye tooth for tooth and so on.

God has also given us the place of protectors to our family and others. To return evil for myself I would say is wrong because I know where I will spend eternity but not where my oppressors will. But I know that we need to protect those whom God has called us to protect.

Okay, let's say that it wouldn't be right for my dad to do that. Would it be right for him to let the guy with the gun go on a killing rampage throughout the house? When my dad has it in his power to stop the guy from killing more people, would it be right for him not to do so?

Are you saying it is always wrong to kill in self-defense?

Personally I agree with you that it would be right for your Dad to stop him. But do you have any scripture? Also do you think it would be right to kill somebody to save your self? Thanks

I would repeat the same verses I posted earlier:

"Blessed are the peacemakers…" Matthew 5:9

If going to war will help to bring peace to a country, then I don't believe it's necessarily wrong.

"Love always protects…" 1 Corinthians 13:7

If the killing is done in protection of another human, then I don't believe it's necessarily wrong.

Here are some passages where God has commanded killing, even of women and children:

1 Samuel 15:2-3: "This is what the LORD Almighty says:…Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants,…"

Deuteronomy 2:34: "At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors."

Deuteronomy 3:6: "We completely destroyed them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying every city—men, women and children."

Deuteronomy 13:15: "you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock."

Joshua 10:20: "So Joshua and the Israelites destroyed them completely—almost to a man—…"

Joshua 11:14: "The Israelites carried off for themselves all the plunder and livestock of these cities, but all the people they put to the sword until they completely destroyed them, not sparing anyone that breathed."

1 Samuel 15:18: "And He sent you on a mission, saying, ‘Go and completely destroy those wicked people, the Amalekites; make war on them until you have wiped them out.’"

And I could post a lot more. Has God changed since the Old Testament? Was it not wrong to kill then, but now it is wrong?

Thanks for the post,
In 1 Cor. 13:7 The Kjv does not say Love always protects. It says Love beareth all things, The Greek definition is,

1. ste÷gw stego, steg´-o; from 4721; to roof over, i.e. (figuratively) to cover with silence (endure patiently): — (for-)bear, suffer.

Do you think it is right to kill somebody to save yourself? Thanks.

Yeah, I didn't answer that question before because I didn't really know what to answer. I guess it would depend on the situation, but in most situations, it's probably not right.

As for the "Love always protects" thing, I don't know why the NIV translates it the way it does. According to Strong's Greek Concordance, the Greek word behind the KJV's rendering "beareth" and the NIV's "protects" is stego, which means, "properly, to place under roof, to cover-over (with a roof); (figuratively) to endure because shielded, i.e. bearing up (forbearing) because under the Lord's protection (covering)."

So I guess they get the "protects" from the idea that the word conveys the meaning of shielding and covering. But yeah, the majority translation of "bears" is probably much better. I guess I shouldn't use that verse.

Did any of you get Logos at Nationals? If not, there's a similar version of that - E-Sword (http://www.e-sword.net/) that's free with the KJV version and Strong's Concordance. Add-ons cost.

The word, is a great study program with greek For windows. www.The word.net Do you guys know of any good free study programs for mac? (That is what I use.)

Thanks for clarifying,
Do you have any scripture from the NT? Thanks.

Luke 6 says to forgive if you want to be forgiven, and Mark 10 says love everyone as your self and it also says do to others what you would like them to do to you. If you kill them you will be leaving no place for the wrath of God. As for me I would not like you to kill me!! And on the Israelite thing if God commands you to kill them go ahead and do it. I would probably still kill them if I had a gun, but that would be my OLD MAN acting.

Yes especially if it was just you. It would be hard if it was another person but since Jesus is the example that we have and he said to love every one personally I could not say 'I love you' as I pulled the trigger to shoot them.

Is there something wrong or inferior with verses from the Old Testament? ;)

No, I haven't come up with any more verses from the NT that apply, other than the ones I already gave you.

What if someone was obviously getting ready to shoot you? If you could see the gun in their hand, and you could see that they were obviously going to shoot you or a loved one, and you had it within your power to shoot them before they could shoot you, you would rather die? I mean, you could at least shoot the guy in the foot and handicap him…

I was just wondering because the Old testament is the Old covenant, It is not inferior. but I would like to know where in the NT there are verses about that. Thanks.

John 15:13
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.
Jesus says everyone is your friend so I would think it kind of hard. So yes I would lay down my life for him certainly. As for my loved one or such I could either block the bullet grab the gun or disable the person by shooting them in the leg. If it is questionable I would rather play it safe and not pull the trigger!

If a man kills another man, he will face God's punishment for it in hell eternally. If he is about to kill another man, but you stop him (by killing him) then you actually preserve him from a worse punishment in hell. Its actually LOVING him to prevent him from bringing worse punishment upon himself. You are protecting either yourself or others, and you are showing love to the killer. So yes, I could say, as I pull the trigger on another man made in the image of God, " I love you."
That's why I believe it is right to kill in self-defense (if you are in mortal danger) and also to kill in order to protect others.

However, I have never killed anyone and I hope I never do.
I also think that if it is in any way possible, disarm or disable the potential killer. If that is not possible, and he's running around with a gun threatening to shoot other people and your only chance is to eliminate him before he eliminates someone else, do it. With fear and trembling, but still do it.

I think Douglas Bond puts a good perspective on godly killing (sounds awful I know) in his Crown and Covenant series.

John Deere Cowboy–You said, "As for me I would not like you to kill me!!"
I would never want to kill anyone–if I did, that would be sin! However, I would kill someone (but as Octo said, with fear and trembling!) if, and only if, that person was ready to kill someone else. If I could, I would try to only handicap them, and would kill them only if that were absolutely necessary! And, as Proverbs 3:27 says, "Do not withhold good from those who deserve it, when it is in your power to act." If I see someone ready to shoot someone else, and I have a gun, I will almost certainly shoot (but trying not to kill the person)! No one should have their life abruptly ended by another human (unless God tells them to, as in the OT), so if it was in my power to act to help someone, I would do it.

However, since this question seems like it may be resolved, let's bring up another issue on this topic, which Octo and I were discussing at church…

Most likely, few would disagree with the statement that it is okay to go to war with another country if that country was attacking yours–we would certainly want to protect our fellow countrymen. But a more difficult question is, would it be okay to go to war with a country that is not attacking your country, but is attacking a country which you have promised to protect? Would it be okay to make that kind of promise in the first place? Should we go to war with someone that isn't threatening us as a nation? Could we protect that country even if we haven't promised it to do so, just out of compassion? Discuss!

As a nation, we should keep our promises. Otherwise we would have no trustworthiness. So if we promise to protect a nation from their potential enemies, we should do it. But I would argue that we shouldn't be making a promise like that in the first place. The federal government should not be sending OUR citizens (army or otherwise) into another country where they may be killed, IF there is no threat to national security. If there is a viable threat to national security, then it is our duty to go. If not, we shouldn't be going.
That is speaking on a federal level. Individually, I think it would be fine to help another nation out of compassion with money, weapons, and even personally fighting for them. But as a nation, we shouldn't be mandating our troops to go and help another nation merely out of compassion for them. That should be individual, not national.

But on the other hand, failure to federally help a nation we call an ally would estrange us from our other allies, and if we have no allies, that poses a threat to our national security, right? If yes, then it would be in our interest to help another nation militarily. If no, then we shouldn't be helping other nations. That's where the difficulty is. Some would say it (having no allies) is a viable threat, some would say it is not.

Personally, I think we can have allies without getting the military involved. We should be making trade alliances. Our soldiers shouldn't be put in harm's way for political advantage as a nation. They should be put in harm's way for the preservation of our security as a nation. We shouldn't trade our military services for a lower cost of goods. Our military is OUR military. We are not mercenaries (or rather, should not be). We should trade our goods and services for their goods and services. That way our military can fix the VIABLE threat to national security down on the southern border.

What about like in WW2 when we fought the Nazis? Sometimes we have to fight evil.

@"JohnDeere"Cowboy: Just for clarification purposes, of which I am a stickler–

Jesus did not say everyone is a friend. He implied that everyone is our neighbor, particularly in the Parable of the Good Samaritan.

If everyone is a friend, then why did He delineate between friends and enemies in Matthew 5:43ff? Clearly, we have enemies, and God has enemies; however, we are to love our neighbor, even if he/she is an enemy.

«If you're drawing that "friend" conclusion from the fact that Jesus laid down His life for His friends, showing the greatest love, then you may want to head over to the "Particular Redemption" Forum to discuss this matter. The elect are Jesus' friends (and God's children). No non-elect person is a friend or child of God, in the redemptive sense.»

John 15 says

John 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

John 15:15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.

So you're refuting what that says? Jesus says love each other like he loved us, and then he says we are his friends. So if we love like Jesus commands, then they have to be friends.

Well I believe that I will never have to. But I would not shoot because I would not chance it, and it would NOT be LOVING or FORGIVING. It would not give him a chance to REPENT AND BE SORRY FOR WHAT THEY DID. Also they still could be elect to kill someone.

Right. We didn't just fight then to gain political power or pressure points whereby we could manipulate other countries. We fought because Hitler and the Nazis had an agenda: global domination. We fought because they would fight us if we didn't stop them. It was a threat to our national security. If the Nazis had conquered Europe, their next stop would (probably) have been the US. It was also a moral issue, but that is not the only reason why we should go to war. Hitler was ordering the slaughter of innocent Jews. But as a nation, our purpose is not to cure the world of its ills, because the duty and purpose of a nation is to protect and preserve ITS OWN citizens. Not other nations' citizens.

But on the other hand, it IS our purpose as individuals to show kindness, mercy, and compassion to those in need, whether they live in the US or anywhere else in the world. As much as we are able, we are (as individuals) to help those in need.

If someone just shot one person, and is about to shoot another, he is not about to repent. It IS loving to kill him in that case, because you are preserving him from a greater damnation, and you are loving whoever he was about to kill. Sure, it does not give him a chance to repent and be sorry, but at that time, he has forfeited the chance to repent. Besides, an elect person is going to be saved. If you kill him and he was not saved, it is impossible that he was elect, because it is God's will that every elect person WILL be saved. An elect person won't be killed before he is saved. If he is killed and was unsaved, then we can and must conclude that he was not elect.

Christians are to love one another as Christ loves Christians.
Jesus is talking specifically to the apostles (and also to all Christians).
These texts have no bearing on us loving non-Christians. It does not address that in any manner.

John Deere Cowboy, before you say what I think you are going to say, Octo does not at all mean that you can go around shooting people, because obviously some of them were not elect anyway.

Also, which is more important: to allow a murderer to continue murdering until he is repentant, or to keep him from murdering by killing or handicapping him?

21For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

22Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth:

23Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

If Jesus is the EXAMPLE we should follow then we should NOT DO WHAT YOU THINK we should do. If we did it we would be reviling again!!!!

Right on, @Octo!

Man has NO ABILITY to thwart ANY of God's decreed plans, especially election. God's elect were chosen in eternity past (John 10); so their fate/destination is sealed, and no man can do anything to alter what's already been determined, even if it happens to be killing that person intentionally, unintentionally, whatever!

We don't have a fully correct view of God if we think we can do anything to change His decretive will.

If we kill someone, God already knew it would happen precisely as it did, and He chose not to intervene to stop it. All people function and flow inside of God's universal decretive will, never once doing anything to change it. He in His enormous, incomprehensible omniscience already knew everything any of us would ever do, react to, think, and say, and He orchestrated His will to work in, through, around, in accordance, and in spite of it all. That's what makes Him infinite, almighty God, and us the tiny, puny, insignificant fleas on the backs of microscopic termites that we are in our understanding of Him and His ways.

Bow now or later.

So, JDC, do you think that it is wrong to kill anyone at all? I'm just clarifying, because I'm not completely sure of your view on this by what you've written so far.

SBG
I do not believe that it is always wrong. IF GOD TELLS YOU TO KILL GO AHEAD AND DO IT!!

About allies, what about when the Gibeonites tricked the Israelites into a treaty with them and then the Israelites had to help to defend the city of the Gibeonites?

JDC, I think that it is mandatory for us to kill when God tells us to–look at what God did to Saul when he didn't obey God in killing Agag, king of the Amalekites! But we are saying that it is not a sin to kill someone if that person is certainly going to kill someone else. I personally think it is morally right to stop someone who is shooting members of my church, even if it means shooting the person. Are you saying that you should allow a murderer to keep murdering if you are able to stop him? Show me in Scripture where we are told that we cannot do that!

But on the other hand, it IS our purpose as individuals to show kindness, mercy, and compassion to those in need, whether they live in the US or anywhere else in the world. As much as we are able, we are (as individuals) to help those in need. </blockquote>

What do you mean help as individuals? Thanks.

I mean if you really want to, you could send a needy country weapons, money, you could personally volunteer to help them, volunteer with another countries army who IS helping them. The possibilities are very great.

Jesus told us to love our neighbor as ourselves. Sometimes that can even be killing them. There is a killer with a smoking gun. He's already shop one person, and he's out to shoot more. I don't want this killer to be damned in hell forever for killing two, three, four, five or more people. If it is possible for me to stop him from killing more people, and thus bringing a hotter hell upon himself, even if it entails killing him, I will do it. With trepidation and fear, most certainly, but God commands me to love my neighbor as myself.
Shooting this killer is also an act of loving the people he would shoot later, because it preserves them from an untimely death.
If someone had the opportunity to make your punishment lesser in hell (just for examples sake, I don't believe you are going to hell; purely an example), would you say it was love for them to stand back and let you bring greater punishment upon yourself? That is not loving in any sense of the word!
Sometimes killing is loving.

As for those crafty Gibeonites, it was wrong for Joshua and the Israelite elders to not consult God before making their ill-informed treaty. However, once that treaty was signed, THAT oath overruled God's commandment to kill them. In fact, this was already a law in their "books," that if they made any peace treaty with any nation in Canaan, except for those specifically named by God to annihilate (of which the Gibeonites were excluded), THAT treaty was in effect forever.

In further fact, it was either David or Solomon who had to make amends, as directed by God, with some Gibeonites later on because Saul killed some of them during his reign. That's how seriously God takes oaths.

Furthermore, look at judge Jephthah's foolish oath to sacrifice the first creature who came out of his house upon his return from a military victory. Human sacrifice was forbidden in Israel, yet God condoned the heinous practice here because Jephthah made an oath; and his only daughter willingly paid the price.

Death is really insignificant in comparison to God's demand for holiness and reverence.

I will show a verse to you if you show one for your side!

Umm… I showed you a whole slew of verses, but you seemed to reject them because they were from the "Old Covenant." All you have done is show us verses that talk about loving your neighbor and not taking revenge. We have shown you why those verses do not contradict our position. Now we would like you to show us a verse that does contradict our position.

But do you think it is right to have and help allies in war?

I gave you a text.
"You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
Now give a text that contradicts that.

So it seems that we agree! That is what I was trying to say the whole time that I could not say I love you but I am going to shoot you!!

Mathew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself , but shalt perform unto the Lord thine oaths: 34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it is God's throne: 35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool : neither by Jerusalem; for it is the city of the great King. 36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make one hair white or black. 37 But let your communication be , Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. 38 Ye have heard that it hath been said , An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law , and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away . 43 Ye have heard that it hath been said , Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
That is why I did not except your verses from the 'OLD COVENANT"!
Thanks

Could you explain what those verses have to do with my quoting passages from the Old Testament? Are we not to use any OT Scripture, or just the ones we like?

JDC, we have shown you that we can shoot someone in love–we are keeping them from shooting others, and therefore saving them from a hotter hell. This is more loving than to let him go on shooting other people, and therefore bringing on himself a greater condemnation. Also, we would not be loving all of the people he is murdering if we allowed him to go on murdering. Here is a verse that I have used before, but it is quite applicable: "Withhold not good from them to whom it is due, when it is in the power of thine hand to do it." Proverbs 3:27 Yes, it is a verse from the Old Testament, but that half of the Bible still applies today in most cases! If it doesn't, why do we have it in our Bibles? This verse shows that if it is in our power to give good to others (in this case, saving the murderer from a hotter hell and the people he is shooting from death), we are to do it.