Is it Right to Kill Someone?

"If a man kills another man, he will face God's punishment for it in hell eternally. If he is about to kill another man, but you stop him (by killing him) then you actually preserve him from a worse punishment in hell. Its actually LOVING him to prevent him from bringing worse punishment upon himself."

I disagree. The reason why God has not yet brought final judgment on the earth is because he is patient and loving, wanting as many as possible to come to him (2 Peter 3v9). If you take away a non-Christian's life, you condemn them to punishment, when perhaps they might have repented (especially in the face of mercy and forgiveness) and been saved.

Jesus came into the world to save sinners (1 Tim 1v15). Think back to Paul - he was a murderer before his conversion. I wonder if people in the early church had similar discussions about what to do if he came to their houses!

Of course, I'm not saying it's easy…

Jo B–So, would you be loving the unsaved people that the man is shooting if you allowed him to continue doing so? By not shooting him, you are allowing him to send other people to hell, if they are not saved.

You also said, "If you take away a non-Christian's life, you condemn them to punishment, when perhaps they might have repented (especially in the face of mercy and forgiveness) and been saved." I disagree with this. Though this may be a conversation for the topic "Free Will vs. Predestination," I don't believe that the man you shot could have possibly come to repentance–if he was not saved when he died, then he couldn't have been one of the elect. Yes, there may be a slight chance that God could change his heart if you did not shoot him, but you are not being very loving to others to allow him to keep shooting them. Also, I doubt that he would appreciate your mercy in not shooting him–a murderer would just try to make a clean getaway.

My point is, there are a few (and only a few) circumstances where it is possible to kill someone without a guilty conscience. If your conscience does not allow for killing (not murdering–no one's conscience is okay with that!), that is fine. But if you allowed a murderer to continue murdering, when you had the chance to stop him, on the basis that it would not be loving to kill him, it would not be loving to him or to those he is shooting.

Sometimes it is SIN not to kill. God has EXPRESSLY told us to protect others, and the verse that SBG quoted said that we are not to withhold good from another. IN THE CASE WE ARE SPEAKING OF, IT IS MERCY TO KILL THE MURDERER. I don't care whether the person MIGHT repent LATER, he is breaking God's law RIGHT NOW, and if it is in my power to stop him, IT IS ALSO MY DUTY, because God has told me to.
I have never been faced with a situation where it would be my duty to kill another human being, and I hope that I will never be so, but in obedience to God's EXPRESS command (revealed will), I would pull the trigger on them, and I WOULD BE LOVING THEM.

You said…"The reason why God has not yet brought final judgment on the earth is because he is patient and loving, wanting as many as possible to come to him (2 Peter 3v9)."
I agree completely with that.

You also said…"If you take away a non-Christian's life, you condemn them to punishment, when perhaps they might have repented (especially in the face of mercy and forgiveness) and been saved."

I agree with this, but whether or not the person MIGHT repent is something for God to take care of. In the meantime, He has told me specifically to "Love my neighbor as myself", and I must obey that, or else it is sin on my part.

You said…"Think back to Paul - he was a murderer before his conversion. I wonder if people in the early church had similar discussions about what to do if he came to their houses!"

It would have been lawful for early Christians to kill Paul if he came into their house. But that was obviously not God's will, so it did not happen.

The situation of a rampant gunman of which we have been speaking is one of the only cases where killing is right. Another case would be in self-defense, if you are in mortal danger. I think in almost every other case it is wrong to kill another man.

OK. We'll have to agree to disagree!
But thank you for explaining your position.

@Jo B: Your post shows that you have very good intentions and I appreciate your comments; however, you've taken some verses out of their context, and are unintentionally engaging in what is called poor hermeneutics. (Hermeneutics is the term used for the practice of interpreting Scripture.)

You said: "The reason why God has not yet brought final judgment on the earth is because he is patient and loving, wanting as many as possible to come to him (2 Peter 3v9). If you take away a non-Christian's life, you condemn them to punishment, when perhaps they might have repented (especially in the face of mercy and forgiveness) and been saved."

Based on the logic of your statement, when God establishes the basis for capital punishment in Genesis 9:6 (“Whoever sheds man’s blood, by man his blood shall be shed; for in the image of God He made man.") and reaffirms His ordination of governmental authorities to be His sword on earth (Romans 13), you are, in effect, saying that it is always wrong to put another person to death, because of 2 Peter 3:9, even if it's the government exacting God's punishment on that man for taking someone else's life.

Where this is in error hermeneutically is that Peter is making an indicative statement (a statement of fact) that God will not bring His judgment until all of His elect are brought into the sheepfold (John 10). He is not depicting God as sitting up in heaven waiting on man to repent and holding off His judgment until He is sure that all men have had the chance to repent or reject Him. This stance isn't supported Biblically anywhere else.

God already knows who has rejected, is rejecting, and will reject Him, because that would be ALL of us, ALL of mankind. Psalm 14 & 53, as well as Romans 3, show that every human being rejects God and is totally incapable of choosing God or repenting on their own. Thus, God isn't waiting for men to repent, though He longs for them to do so. He is waiting for His already-determined redemptive plan to complete itself, which includes the salvation of the last person He chose to save in eternity past.

You next said: "Jesus came into the world to save sinners (1 Tim 1v15). Think back to Paul - he was a murderer before his conversion. I wonder if people in the early church had similar discussions about what to do if he came to their houses!"

Again, while Jesus did indeed come to earth to save sinners, whether someone has to be killed because he/she is killing (or has killed) others isn't related. God's Word is pretty clear that if someone is killing or has killed someone else, they are forfeiting their own life, either at the hands of someone nearby who is able to stop their killing spree or by God-ordained governmental authorities. Whether they come to repentance is all in God's hands, and if He chooses to bring them to repentance before they physically die, He will do so. If they die before ever repenting, it's not ever thwarting God's will. Whatever happens is His will.

Please remember this all-important Biblical truth: People will not go to hell because they didn't repent of their sins and believe in Christ. People go to hell for sinning against God, plain and simple.

If they reject an opportunity to repent, the Bible says that their condemnation is greater (such as when Jesus told the Jewish people of His time that it would be worse for them than Sodom and Gomorrah); but the punishment of going to hell is for sinners, not non-repenters, though there will be many non-repentant sinners there, too.

Make sense?

"The situation of a rampant gunman of which we have been speaking is one of the only cases where killing is right. Another case would be in self-defense, if you are in mortal danger. I think in almost every other case it is wrong to kill another man."

Do you really think that it is right to kill someone to save just your self?

Thanks.

Hmm. Well, you gave me something to think about!

Perhaps I should make it clear that I was talking about the specific situation outlined at the beginning of the thread, and my reply was intended to explain why I don't believe you can kill anyone and love them simultaneously.

I believe that we are called to love others as God loves and that His love is patient, merciful and sacrificial (Ps 103, 1 Cor 13).

I do, however, completely agree with you that God is omnipotent and omniscient, that we are all sinners, that 'the wages of sin are death', and (I think you would agree) that we are only saved by God's grace (Eph 2v8-9).

But on the point at hand, I think we'll have to agree to disagree too! :-)

If I am the only person involved, and the gunman, or whoever, has every intent to kill me, my first and greatest effort would be to disarm or disable the killer. This would also be true of the case of a rampant gunman.
But if it is necessary, and it is impossible to disarm or disable the one trying to take my life, then I would feel it to be my duty to kill him (if I have that ability). The point isn't that I'm just trying to save my skin, it's that I'm trying to keep him from killing anybody, and so bringing greater punishment upon himself. The focus in these situations should be "What is best for everybody?" Do I sit back and let other people get killed by this man? No. That is not loving the killer's victims. If you are loving them, you will protect them, by disabling (preferably temporarily, not permanently). Do I sit back and let this man bring a hotter hell upon his soul? NO. That is not loving him.
On the other hand, because I killed him, doesn't that mean I am responsible for his death? No, because he was the one who drove me to it. He brought it upon himself. He is responsible for the need for him to be killed, so he is responsible for the fact of his own death. It's either him or me, and if he's the one initiating, it's not wrong for me to kill him, similar to the case in the old testament where a man stealing could be lawfully put to death, because he brought the need for punishment upon himself. (Note: If someone is in my house stealing, I'm not just gonna kill 'em because they're takin' my stuff. But if they have a lethal weapon, and the situation escalates to one where I and my family are in mortal danger…then it's okay)

You said…"I believe that we are called to love others as God loves and that His love is patient, merciful and sacrificial (Ps 103, 1 Cor 13)."

I agree that God's love is patient, merciful and sacrificial, and that we are called to love others as God loves.(And as I've pointed out before, it IS loving in some cases to kill.)
But God is also light. He is holiness. He can't abide sin in His presence. He HATES sin. He is "angry with the wicked every day" (don't remember the address). Murder is sin. God HATES it.
Just as we are called to love as God loves, we are also called to hate as God hates. We are to be holy as God is holy. If we are holy, we will HATE sin. We will HATE murder.
Don't you think we should do everything we can to keep it from happening?

I agree that it is alright to kill somebody to protect other people, but can you tell me ANY SCRIPTURE that supports you can kill somebody to save yourself ONLY. Thanks

If a man kills another man, he will face God's punishment for it in hell eternally.

Assuming, of course, they never encounter the saving grace of God.

Luke 6 says forgive and you will be forgiven. I agree with Jo B that you WILL STAND BEFORE GOD FOR KILLING

We'll stand before God for any & all the commandments we've broken, not just killing. Don't elevate it as a higher or greater sin than others that God hates or calls abominable.

Also, don't forget that every one of us is guilty of murder whenever we have hatred in our hearts towards another person.

Many posts have a tone of: "I would never do that!" Yet you probably already have in your heart OR you need to come to realization that you likely would under just the right circumstances.

"Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall." 1 Cor. 10:12

'We'll stand before God for any & all the commandments we've broken, not just killing. Don't elevate it as a higher or greater sin than others that God hates or calls abominable.

Also, don't forget that every one of us is guilty of murder whenever we have hatred in our hearts towards another person.'

Nicely put.

We're all in the same boat as all of us are sinners, saved only by God's grace and Jesus' sacrifice.

"Love your neighbor as yourself."

What about in this scenario, A man is drunk and he tries to shoot you,
do you think it is right to take away his life?

Do you have so little love for your friends and family, and so low value of your own life that you would go ahead and let him do it? The guy is drunk! Under normal circumstances, he wouldn't be trying to shoot you! You're doing him a service by keeping him from killing you.

In that case that i depicted you would be the only one with personal danger, also a drunk man is a bad shot, so you would kill him just for aiming a gun at you?

God gives us the responsibility of protecting others and ourselves and if that means that someone is attacking you it is fine to kill him if he is in te act of doing it or he is on the way to do it. But you can't go trail down the robber of your house and kill him.

Right but I have already sinned much.

Yes, we all have. But they're all covered by Christ if you're in Him.

Ok, after watching this for so long I just had to jump in! Dude, just because you're drunk doesn't mean that you're brain-dead! Being drunk only makes you a lot bolder to do the things you might normally just think about, and not really do. So in the case of the drunk shooter, he's totally conscious of what he's about to do, and so shooting him is the right decision.

@Depraved teen,
So you think it is right to kill somebody to save yourself and only yourself? Do you have ANY SCRIPTURE that supports that? So far you guys have pretty much used only logic. Thanks

No, we don't, really. And I think you know we don't. But the logic itself suffices, don't you think?

I do not know if it is right or not that is why I was asking you.
I guess the Bible does not really have a clear side. Thanks

Okay. My apologies. I was getting the wrong impression. It seemed to me that you were on the side of not killing in self-defense. Thank you for clarifying.

You're right. We don't really have any explicit Scriptures. But that said, we DO have scriptural principles.
If the drunk guy shoots you, what is your family going to do (esp. if you are the main provider)?
If someone is going to take away your ability to provide for your family (which, by the way, is a biblical command) then do what you have to to keep that ability. Your death doesn't really affect only you.
Now if you're not the provider…..
But I still think from the "sparing-from-a-hotter-hell" perspective that killing the drunk man is warranted, even if it means you are protecting only yourself. It isn't being selfish, because you know how much your family would grieve, what a loss it would be.
You could turn that around and say "The drunk guy's (or shooter, whatever) family will grieve, too." My response would be that the drunk man forfeited his life when he showed every intent to take my life, and was in the process of doing it.
Hope that helps!

Okay I know that this topic is ten months old. :) but I have a question.
What scripture or scriptural principle do you get different "levels" of hell or a "hotter" hell? This is just a honest Question I'm not trying to debate you. (yet)

Oh and I did read/skimmed everyone's comments this far.

Thanks

Luke 12:47-48

And that servant who knew his master’s will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more.

I've Got another Question.
How far are you going to take it? According to your logic if we see someone just about to rape someone we should POP their head of?
What about adultery? What about fornication? What about lying? What about Covetousness? What about dishonoring parents? Where are you going to draw the line? Us humans try to rate sins. God places Murder on the same ground as Lying.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers,and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Doesn't God judge the INTENT of the heart?

Edit: This Question is for those in the "you can kill someone because you love them/ godly kill/ or what ever you call it" camp.

I agree with you, Caleb, about humans trying to rate sin. God places all sin on the same level. One sin is just as bad as the other sin. We try to rate sin because we know people who aren't saved and we don't want to think that they will go to the same place as the person who murders, etc…

"Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them: do you think that they were worse offenders than all the others who lived in Jerusalem? No, I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish. " - Luke 13:4-5

So, if you saw someone about to rape someone, and you had a gun, you WOULDN'T pop their head off?

Does it matter what I would do?

If you believe in the "godly kill" then shouldn't you just drop a bomb on the the world? the elect will be saved the non-elect will have a happier hell?

If you're going to take the "does it matter what I would do" route, then let me rephrase that: would it be wrong to pop the head off of someone who was about to rape another person?

I think it would be wrong because this person already has the intent in mind, I'm pretty sure they've already imagined it if they are this far, and shooting them would only send them to Hell without a chance to repent. Also, you could just beat the guy (And I'm pretty sure this imaginary raper is a guy, right?) :/

Yeah, it's a guy. Women don't usually do that kind of stuff. But what if you didn't have a chance to beat him? What if you were standing a little far off, and only had time to shoot?

I'd yell, run up to him, do something. Shooting has never been the answer especially for a situation such as this. It is very demoralizing to a girl to be raped and I understand this man deserves punishment, but shooting him? There are several alternatives. Also, if someone was pointing a gun at me, I'd get pretty scared. You must understand that the farthest distance you can be from someone to shoot them with an average rifle or pistol, is easy running distance. Also, why would anyone rape someone in the open…

Am I a Good Shot?

It's an example bro. But they could be doing it in an alley. Anyhoo, if the dude is armed, then you shooting him first is the best thing! 'Cuz, since you saw him, he might try to kill you and her, so that no one finds out. And, people run at different speeds. He could kill the woman before you get to him, and you've just lost your opportunity to stop him. Now it's you against him, with no witnesses. That's pretty bad. If you had stopped him beforehand, you wouldn't have this problem, and you'd have the woman as a witness to what he was doing, so it'n not just your word.

So the situation is rape or shoot?

I agree most of these situation are never gonna happen.

Basically, yeah. I'd shoot.

So are you going to "pop" their head off, if they are just about to tell a lie? Lying hurts people too.

Ok, an alley, didn't think of that. If he's armed, well he's definitely a criminal then! Most likely he would hold the girl up, using her as a shield. He'd tell you he would shoot if you didn't back off. The best thing to do in this situation is hold your ground and slowly move towards him. It is extremely hard to kill someone and this imaginary man probably doesn't have the guts to do it. As you can see its all about probability, but when you are dealing with a human soul, you can't leave things up to chance. So I might shoot, but I wouldn't try to kill him. It is better for him to go to jail and learn the consequences then for him to go to hell forever.

But, if he was elect, he wouldn't be able to die without accepting Christ. Even if I shoot him in the head, God would work out a way to keep him alive. So, yeah.

Yea, God would send down an angel to touch him on the head and his head would magically heal and he would go around singing God's praises.

glares Don't get sarcastic with me! But I do believe in God's sovereignty, and that if someone is elect, they will not die unconverted. If he does die, and goes to hell, he wasn't elect in the first place.

Sure ok. On this Earth I think we have the power of choice, though. The main belief of your doctrine is the elimination of choice. Man has no control over his destiny whatsoever, and those who go to Hell will go to Hell. Those who were regenarated will go to Heaven. Why? Because God is very picky and only chooses who He wants to choose. The rest will burn in Hell forever because He didn't want them to glorify Him by worshipping Him in eternal bliss. Instead, He wants them to go to Hell and glorify His holy wrath by suffering in agony and torment forever. I think God would have given this man a chance. He would have sent some preacher, some witness, someone to explain the gospel of Jesus. Yet this man rejected this belief. He wanted to live His life without being ruled by some invisible God. So I think he would have went to Hell, but he would have at least had a chance. That way, he could blame no one but himself. Why wouldn't our God have given him at least one chance?

I'd shoot too! @Sam: I agree with you for once!

If we're going to have a gun with us, our responsibility is to protect our families, those around us, and ourselves. Sometimes you have to do what you have to do.