Dating vs Courtship.

Uh...I did say more. ;)

I'm not sure if you mean you said more to Sam or you said more to me in that conversation--but regardless, you asked him seriously to stop more than once.

Meaning I said I don't think of it as that big of an issue…if he does it to me. If he does it to others and they don't like it, I see that as a big issue. But if he does it to me…whatever. Anyways, I'm thinking that I'm a main reason he hasn't stopped. But actually he hasn't teased me…or anyone, for that matter…in that way for a long time. :)

As to your analogy…totally different. Because one is merely words while the other is an action that is just wrong if participated in before marriage. While the other, while it may not need to be done, is done as teasing.

Remember that, while premarital kissing is unwise, it's not sinful, as it's not forbidden in Scripture. I'm not approving of it; I'm just pointing out that we can't say people are sinning by doing it–just being indiscreet. But I'd say (at least outside engagement) it's inappropriate. And wouldn't you agree that teenage flirting in inappropriate? (Well, any flirting, but we're teenagers.) Romance teasing often jokes about that, as if close guy-girl friendships are flirting.

Your justification of romance teasing is actually the fact that it is teasing. If the romance teasing were not teasing, but genuine and truly meant, it would be inappropriate, right? So both kissing and such remarks would be inappropriate. But you're saying that because it's not truly meant, it's inappropriate. And what if a kiss is not truly meant?

I'll repeat my statement–_" If the romance teasing were not teasing, but genuine and truly meant, it would be inappropriate, right?"_ In light of this: the people in defense of it are using the philosophy that anything is okay as long as it's done in a teasing way. But of course they don't accept that philosophy as a whole, and therefore are going by a double-standard.

When you say that you're the main reason Sam did it, do you mean that it was your reactions that "caused" him to keep doing it? Just because someone's reaction to meanness is funny and they could react more wisely doesn't justify the meanness!

Do let me know if I misinterpreted anything you said.

Carissa didn't say I was being mean, though. See? This is what I meant by you telling her how to react. You did the same last time, and I seem to remember both Christian and Carissa agreeing that that's what you were doing. ;)

Remember that, while premarital kissing is unwise, it's not sinful, as it's not forbidden in Scripture. I'm not approving of it; I'm just pointing out that we can't say people are sinning by doing it--just being indiscreet. But I'd say (at least outside engagement) it's inappropriate. And wouldn't you agree that teenage flirting in inappropriate? (Well, any flirting, but we're teenagers.) Romance teasing often jokes about that, as if close guy-girl friendships are flirting. *That's where you are making wide sweeping assumptions. Teasing of that sort doesn't necessarily cause flirting. Maybe in some cases...but not all. Did you see me flirting with Chrisitan? Nicolas? Ian? Any of the people that Sam has teased me about?* Your justification of romance teasing is actually the fact that it is teasing. If the romance teasing were not teasing, but genuine and truly meant, it would be inappropriate, right? So both kissing and such remarks would be inappropriate. But you're saying that because it's not truly meant, it's inappropriate. And what if a kiss is not truly meant? *Again, I'd like to argue that words and kisses are two. Totally. Different. Things.* I'll repeat my statement--_" If the romance teasing were not teasing, but genuine and truly meant, it would be inappropriate, right?"_ In light of this: the people in defense of it are using the philosophy that anything is okay as long as it's done in a teasing way. But of course they don't accept that philosophy as a whole, and therefore are going by a double-standard. When you say that you're the main reason Sam did it, do you mean that it was your reactions that "caused" him to keep doing it? Just because someone's reaction to meanness is funny and they could react more wisely doesn't justify the meanness! *Partly that. And just cause he'd always teased me and I'd sometimes tease him and that's always what we did. If we had never really teased each other I have a feeling that (meaning the 'romantic' teasing) would have been different.* Do let me know if I misinterpreted anything you said.

No! You weren't being mean! You're always such an awesome big brother!

That's where you are making wide sweeping assumptions. Teasing of that sort doesn't necessarily cause flirting. Maybe in some cases...but not all. Did you see me flirting with Chrisitan? Nicolas? Ian? Any of the people that Sam has teased me about? *No; it's not all flirting. But when Sam teased about himself, it was.* Again, I'd like to argue that words and kisses are two. Totally. Different. Things. *Yes, they are; but if it's all done as a joke, with no meaning behind it, then it doesn't have any more meaning than romance teasing.* Partly that. And just cause he'd always teased me and I'd sometimes tease him and that's always what we did. If we had never really teased each other I have a feeling that (meaning the 'romantic' teasing) would have been different. *Okay... I was thinking you didn't participate in it... I guess I was wrong about that. My mistake.*

Carissa didn't say I was being mean, though. See? This is what I meant by you telling her how to react. You did the same last time, and I seem to remember both Christian and Carissa agreeing that that's what you were doing. ;)

Well, it seems that I have a few misconceptions… but regardless, one thing I know is that she seriously asked you to stop more than once. You didn't, and that's being mean–period. Maybe a low degree of mean; maybe she didn't make a big deal out of it–but still mean.

Nathan, I agree with you in that after the point that a person has seriously asked a person to stop teasing them and they do not, it is disrespectful and mean. However, it would not be our place (even as friends) to argue about it for the person offended… because at this point (if they are really offended) they will seek help from higher athority.

In other words, we shouldn't need to get into it at all.

Nathan, I agree with you in that after the point that a person has seriously asked a person to stop teasing them and they do not, it is disrespectful and mean. However, it would not be our place (even as friends) to argue about it for the person offended... because at this point (if they are really offended) they will seek help from higher athority. In other words, we shouldn't need to get into it at all.

No; it's always our place to stand up for our friends (unless they don't want us to…).

Sarah reminds me of another point–we shouldn't have to appeal to an authority, because…

our parents wouldn't approve of this poo! Right? Maybe a few would, but most wouldn't! And even if our parents allow things our friend's parents don't, we need to respect them by not getting their kid involved in such things!

Really? Well, if the parents don't care, and God doesn't care… maybe none of this matters. Childish bickering.

Really? Well, if the parents don't care, and God doesn't care... maybe none of this matters. Childish bickering.

Wait… that's the opposite of what I just said. Most of the parents disapprove of romance teasing! What I'm saying is that we shouldn't have to appeal to the offender's parents, because he should be respecting all the parents and not doing it in the first place! (This unless the parties of both parents do approve…)

Okay then. The offended person can talk to their parents about their trouble with the teaser. But by this time it seems like it should be off Memverse. They should not be bringing any offense to the offender in a public place. So the problem when brought to the parents will be a problem with a person, not the Memverse community.

Or the other option would be to leave.

Okay then. The offended person can talk to their parents about their trouble with the teaser. But by this time it seems like it should be off Memverse. They should not be bringing any offense to the offender in a public place. So the problem when brought to the parents will be a problem with a person, not the Memverse community.

Unfortunately, that might be the case at this point. When it first started, since it was a public thing, the sensible thing to happen would have been for the offended to publicly ask for it to stop (that way no one gets the wrong impression) and then for the offender to stop–and that would be the end. But since we can't force anyone not to stop, what you just suggested might be the only way to go now–for it to become a personal confrontation.

Okay then. The offended person can talk to their parents about their trouble with the teaser. But by this time it seems like it should be off Memverse. They should not be bringing any offense to the offender in a public place. So the problem when brought to the parents will be a problem with a person, not the Memverse community.

Unfortunately, that might be the case at this point. When it first started, since it was a public thing, the sensible thing to happen would have been for the offended to publicly ask for it to stop (that way no one gets the wrong impression) and then for the offender to stop--and that would be the end. But since we can't force anyone not to stop, what you just suggested might be the only way to go now--for it to become a personal confrontation.

Okay. There are a lot of problems with asking a teaser to stop publicly online. I doubt they I would ever take it seriously (especially on Memverse). I probably wouldn't, even though I am not a teaser…

This is how the Bible says to take care of this kind of thing:
Matthew 18:15-20
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say to you, if two of you agree on earth about anything they ask, it will be done for them by my Father in heaven. For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them.”

That's where you are making wide sweeping assumptions. Teasing of that sort doesn't necessarily cause flirting. Maybe in some cases...but not all. Did you see me flirting with Chrisitan? Nicolas? Ian? Any of the people that Sam has teased me about? *No; it's not all flirting. But when Sam teased about himself, it was.* Again, I'd like to argue that words and kisses are two. Totally. Different. Things. *Yes, they are; but if it's all done as a joke, with no meaning behind it, then it doesn't have any more meaning than romance teasing.* Partly that. And just cause he'd always teased me and I'd sometimes tease him and that's always what we did. If we had never really teased each other I have a feeling that (meaning the 'romantic' teasing) would have been different. *Okay... I was thinking you didn't participate in it... I guess I was wrong about that. My mistake.*

Wait…when did Sam tease about himself???

Um…disagreed.

I didn't participate in it…I have participated in teasing…normal regular teasing.

Carissa didn't say I was being mean, though. See? This is what I meant by you telling her how to react. You did the same last time, and I seem to remember both Christian and Carissa agreeing that that's what you were doing. ;)

Well, it seems that I have a few misconceptions... but regardless, one thing I know is that she seriously asked you to stop more than once. You didn't, and that's being mean--period. Maybe a low degree of mean; maybe she didn't make a big deal out of it--but still mean.

Sam wasn't mean to me…

I really didn't mean to start this big of a discussion…especially since no teasing of this sort has been going on lately…

Wait...when did Sam tease about himself??? *Just once that I recall. I just brought it up as an example.* Um...disagreed. I didn't participate in it...I have participated in teasing...normal regular teasing. *Okay... but we're talking about crossing-the-line teasing.*

I really didn't mean to start this big of a discussion...especially since no teasing of this sort has been going on lately...

Don't worry; it was already started. ;-D

It's right there in the verse–if your brother SINS against you. Not if he merely annoys you without thinking about it. If someone makes a stupid joke about romance between two specific people, that's foolish, but not sinful. So the most logical thing to do is, right then and there, for the offended to ask the person to stop. If the offender continues, knowing full-well it is offensive, THEN it is sin, and THEN it should become a more serious matter–like the verse describes.

Wait...when did Sam tease about himself??? *Just once that I recall. I just brought it up as an example.* _hmm...totally don't remember that, but whatever. :P_ Um...disagreed. I didn't participate in it...I have participated in teasing...normal regular teasing. *Okay... but we're talking about crossing-the-line teasing.* _Yeah, I know. But I was saying that teasing (in whatever way) is just part of our friendship._

Wait...when did Sam tease about himself??? *Just once that I recall. I just brought it up as an example.* _hmm...totally don't remember that, but whatever. :P_ Um...disagreed. I didn't participate in it...I have participated in teasing...normal regular teasing. *Okay... but we're talking about crossing-the-line teasing.* _Yeah, I know. But I was saying that teasing (in whatever way) is just part of our friendship._ *I'm not opposed to teasing... just like I'm not opposed to guns.*

It's right there in the verse--if your brother SINS against you. Not if he merely annoys you without thinking about it. If someone makes a stupid joke about romance between two specific people, that's foolish, but not sinful. So the most logical thing to do is, right then and there, for the offended to ask the person to stop. If the offender continues, knowing full-well it is offensive, THEN it is sin, and THEN it should become a more serious matter--like the verse describes.

I disagree. I think that 'sin' and 'trespass' refer to anything that is found offensive. Anything found offensive by anyone is serious!

I disagree. I think that 'sin' and 'trespass' refer to anything that is found offensive. Anything found offensive by anyone is serious!

So if someone innocently says something that offends you on the forums, you won't just post a simple, "Hey, can you please not say that to me?"

I disagree. I think that 'sin' and 'trespass' refer to anything that is found offensive. Anything found offensive by anyone is serious!

So if someone innocently says something that offends you on the forums, you won't just post a simple, "Hey, can you please not say that to me?"

Sure you can say that! But if they don't listen to you then it's really annoying and disrespectful (the 'sin') and you would be best approaching it to them off the forums. Otherwise you are pulling other people in and it's all just arguing and bickering among friends.

Sure you can say that! But if they don't listen to you then it's really annoying and disrespectful (the 'sin') and you would be best approaching it to them off the forums. Otherwise you are pulling other people in and it's all just arguing and bickering among friends.

Yeah… that's what I'm saying.

You're missing my point. ;) I am saying that I think part of the reason that Sam kept teasing me in that way was 1. My reactions to it and 2. We always tease each other…just regular teasing…so that in a sense may have 'allowed' Sam to tease me in that way.

You guys're funny. :)

You guys're funny. :)

I know right!

You're missing my point. ;) I am saying that I think part of the reason that Sam kept teasing me in that way was 1. My reactions to it and 2. We always tease each other...just regular teasing...so that in a sense may have 'allowed' Sam to tease me in that way.

Ohhhhh, I understand better now. Okay. It still wasn't an excuse for him not to listen AFTER you asked him to stop, but we already covered that.

You're missing my point. ;) I am saying that I think part of the reason that Sam kept teasing me in that way was 1. My reactions to it and 2. We always tease each other...just regular teasing...so that in a sense may have 'allowed' Sam to tease me in that way.

Ohhhhh, I understand better now. Okay. It still wasn't an excuse for him not to listen AFTER you asked him to stop, but we already covered that.

Thank you! :P We have. :P

I love how you think you can accurately define me. :)

I love how you think you can accurately define me. :)

I don't think I can…just saying that that's how I see it from my perspective. You have to agree that if you had never teased me and stuff that it may not have been as likely to happen with me specifically. :P

I really didn't mean to start this big of a discussion...especially since no teasing of this sort has been going on lately...

IKR? I wasn't expecting it to get this big… really, this isn't that much of an issue on Memverse anymore! :P Nobody's ever been seriously hurt by teasing that I recall, and it hasn't even happened for quite a while… I was mainly speaking against romance teasing in general, not anything that's happened recently. I really don't think anybody needs to get heated over this. :P

I really didn't mean to start this big of a discussion...especially since no teasing of this sort has been going on lately...

IKR? I wasn't expecting it to get this big... really, this isn't that much of an issue on Memverse anymore! :P Nobody's ever been seriously hurt by teasing that I recall, and it hasn't even happened for quite a while... I was mainly speaking against romance teasing in general, not anything that's happened recently. I really don't think anybody needs to get heated over this. :P

Yeah. :P

I really didn't mean to start this big of a discussion...especially since no teasing of this sort has been going on lately...

IKR? I wasn't expecting it to get this big... really, this isn't that much of an issue on Memverse anymore! :P Nobody's ever been seriously hurt by teasing that I recall, and it hasn't even happened for quite a while... I was mainly speaking against romance teasing in general, not anything that's happened recently. I really don't think anybody needs to get heated over this. :P

To be honest, I was half-wondering if someone was wanting me to start teasing everyone like that on a regular basis, just to have something to complain about. :P

Hahaha!

On a more serious note, I am surprised no one has talked about this article yet, which has gone pretty viral in conservative homeschool circles in recent months (to truly understand his position, you have to read the entirety of both articles, as he often clarifies earlier, questionable comments near the end of the article or in the Q and A):

and this, which helps to clarify his position through Q and A:

Now, I definitely do not agree with him on everything, but I do think he raises some important points regarding the imperfections of "traditional courtship," points that seem to run directly contrary to the lingo and rhetoric that is used by those who advocate for courtship. What do you all think?

So far I've read the first article, Jimmy. I like this guy's ideas. To be honest, even back when I first heard of courtship. I was like "So. What exactly do you do?" I'm not sure if I'm totally fine with his approach (at least, until I've read the second link) but he does provide an interesting viewpoint to think about. And to be honest, I have seen a lot of elligible young guys and women not find anyone because of the constrains of the courtship ideal so…I know where he's coming from.

I just read the second link, and he addressed my question about the involve dress of parents (it did seem like he was encouraging a hands-off approach in the first article) and I agree with what he said about there tpbeing trust between the children and the parents, so that there is advice and suggestions flowing between them, and not commands. I'd like to think about his position a bit more, but I just might agree with him.

I have realized lately that dating can and often is done without violating any Biblical principles. It can be done wisely; however, the guy says "TRADITIONAL dating", which I don't think is wise.

As long as there's little to no romantic interaction before a commitment is made, I think you're good to go. I'd also encourage parents to be on the dates with their children.

I just read the first article too. I've heard of the don't-date-the-same-person-twice-in-a-row thing before, I'm guessing maybe from someone that read this article.

I think the guy has some good points, I would have liked to hear more support than just his personal opinion and experience. He made some sweeping generalities that may be true but wouldn't be convincing to someone who disagrees with him.

Personally, I've thought about that idea before and don't have any good arguments against it. But I've never asked a girl out to dinner either. :)

EDIT And I can just imagine the reaction of some parents I know if I asked their daughter out to dinner. :)

Did you even read the article?? His definition of traditional dating is the wise version of dating…

Also, having parents be on the dates with their children totally defeats the purpose of getting to know someone and helping them to open up to you in a way they wouldn't in a group setting…

I'm still reading the article, but I plan to comment with my thoughts as soon as I'm done.

Most of the clarifications he made were wise, but he still said "TRADITIONAL". I'd rather be somewhere in between. Also, maybe it's just my preference, but I don't like the idea of a guy and girl being totally isolated together (eg. in a car), especially in a romantic relationship. Private conversations can easily be had without being the two being isolated from anyone. Besides, why do the people have to be alone anyway if they're not hiding anything from their parents?

Welp, I know that when Nate's taking some girl out, I'm tagging along. I'll sit with your parents. ;)

That's why he said to find public places where you can have private conversations…. Again, I'm feeling like you didn't actually try to find these answers in the article. =P Also, have you read the Q&A yet?

It doesn't mean that you're hiding things from your parents when you have to be alone with a girl in order to fully open up to her… It just means it's hard to talk intimately with someone when it's not… you know… an intimate setting…

Welp, I know that when Nate's taking some girl out, I'm tagging along. I'll sit with your parents. ;)

XD