Dating vs Courtship.

Finished the second article. Mostly just clarifying the first, not really anything particularly new that I noticed.

Waits for Christian's thoughts

That's why he said to find public places where you can have private conversations.... Again, I'm feeling like you didn't actually try to find these answers in the article. =P Also, have you read the Q&A yet? It doesn't mean that you're hiding things from your parents when you have to be alone with a girl in order to fully open up to her... It just means it's hard to talk intimately with someone when it's not... you know... an *intimate* setting...

You'd still be in a car… and I think that's actually the reason many parents are concerned about their kids dating alone.

Well, I'm assuming you're using the word "intimate" apart from the general connotation. See, I think of intimacy as warm, fuzzy, and emotionally involved. I don't think that should be the case until there's at least a commitment.

I think you just mean any conversation that registers on a close personal level, in which case your parents should ideally already know everything you're saying… I mean, I've talked a lot about my personal life to many of my close, confident friends (guys and girls), in settings where multiple friends were there. I do see your point, though.

I skimmed the Q & A.

I haven't totally finished the Q&A yet, and since you say that nothing new was introduced, I'm just going to speak my mind now.

I really like what this guy had to say. xD And I have seen first-hand, as well as just through observation of courtships in many of the different spheres of my life, that there are some big issues. And I totally believe it that most people end up single or dissatisfied.

I'm not entirely sure that the traditional dating he describes is the best alternative, but I certainly like the prospects it offers. I'm going to send these articles to my parents and see what they think of them. Because I think he identifies some very real problems that I myself am already beginning to experience, and I think some of his solutions are the ones that I've already been thinking about and even exploring myself. Honestly, something inside me screams that I would love the traditional dating approach. Because I feel like I can't even get to know girls. The only times I've been able to get to know girls is when I've gone out of my parents' sphere of influence or done things without their permission. I'm not fully proud of that, but it had some results that I would never have gotten otherwise.

For example, I feel most free to interact with girls at the weekly Bible study I go to on Wednesday nights. I go by myself. And I don't flirt, but I am so much more free to talk with and get to know the young women there than I am whenever I'm with my family or with my parents. I can't explain why, but that's just the way it is. So I love the idea of just having the opportunity to get to know girls without the pressure that it must be a relationship that's heading toward marriage. There are a very select few girls that I know very well whom I would consider very good friends, and in each case, the relationship started out through private conversations without the consent of my parents. I see a pattern… =P

So yeah, those are my thoughts. I think something definitely needs to change, fundamentally, with the way we do courting, if we're going to continue to call it that. I've already been independently changing things in my life to make that happen. And I've seen awesome results. It wouldn't be appropriate to share specifically how I've seen success, but just know that pure, deep relationships can be had apart from the traditional courtship model. And I feel confident that they will lead me to a very satisfying, fulfilled marriage relationship that will last a lifetime.

Just make a commitment not to stop the car anywhere other than your destinations. Simple as that. =P Part of the article was an emphasis on the trust that parents should have in their children. Wanting to micromanage every aspect of the courtship is not trust. And it's certainly not trust in God, who should be capable of protecting your child from harm.

Yeah, my definition of intimate is different. And it's because I've had intimate conversations with girls – one in particular that I can think of – that were totally innocent and pure, but that wouldn't have happened if parents were present.

Excellent points. When our parents were our age, the unwise form of dating was the way to do things. They got caught up in that, and the results were bad. Now, the devil is using that to push them too far the other way. He'll ruin every generation in any way he can.

And it's not dishonoring to the parents to get to know girls well, even if we wouldn't do with them around. They don't want to deprive us of good things, but because of their past, it might worry them to see us partaking in certain good things. So if we're responsible, it's not a "behind-their-back" thing; it's simply going about it in such a way as not to worry them or make them distrust us.

However, if the friendship becomes actively romantic, a problem develops. If you fall in love with the person, the first thing do to is talk to your parents; then the parents of both parties will work that out. This brings us to Christian's point about trust, which I pretty much agree with.

However, on that note, I have yet to see what benefit is gained by putting your kids in a situation where they could easily sin, even if they are totally trustworthy.

On a randomly relevant (or relevantly random; I'm not sure which) note: I'd actually encourage more caution in a romantic relationship than I would in a platonic one.

On a randomly relevant (or relevantly random; I'm not sure which) note: I'd actually encourage more caution in a romantic relationship than I would in a platonic one.

I wholeheartedly agree with this point. So I think once an official "going steady" relationship is begun, at least according to the blogger's definition, then some more precautions should be put in place. But I honestly don't believe that a guy and a girl going in a car somewhere together is terribly problematic. Yes, the opportunity is there, but if they seriously aren't mature enough to handle that, then they shouldn't be considering marriage yet. =P

Yeah; it's not terribly problematic. I just thought it was, kinda like, "not the smartest thing". But your point about trust changed how I feel about that. :-)

Martin's brother told me that his married siblings actually did both dating and courtship. Basically, they courted, but they went out on some dates, too. At first I was "shocked", but the more I thought about it, the more I realized that the real issue is not that we don't date, but that we don't give our heart away prematurely.

However, here's another issue. Will being isolated make it highly likely that you'll end up giving your heart away prematurely? I definitely can't answer this question from experience, but I can see it easily happening. E-mail is private, but that's different on a number of huge levels. Maybe e-mail would be a better idea?

Yes, the opportunity is there, but if they seriously aren't mature enough to handle that, then they shouldn't be considering marriage yet. =P

Really like how you put that. xD

I have heard the same thing about Martin's family, which has always kept me from being totally committed to the "strict" version of courtship that I've been taught about. =P

I think that possibility is there, yes. And I myself have been guilty of that, but every case was almost exclusively my own fault. I wasn't careful in guarding my own heart, and I let my emotions get away from me way too quickly. So the goal is to keep things casual and not too intimate. The purpose, it seems, would be to just get to know the person, not to know all of the inner workings of their heart and emotions. =P I tend to lean towards doing that way too quickly, which has been my main problem. But I would say that that's even easier to do through e-mail/chat systems – which is actually how two of mine have happened – so I wouldn't recommend doing that too freely either. =P

Yes, the opportunity is there, but if they seriously aren't mature enough to handle that, then they shouldn't be considering marriage yet. =P

Really like how you put that. xD

Thanks. XD

Hmm. Maybe. But just getting to know the basics of someone–from favorite color to opinion on baptism–isn't really intimate, so there's no reason for the setting to be intimate. And while confiding deeper personal information in each other isn't necessary, there's nothing wrong with it; and I think it has advantages. For example, if one party has had a problem with visual, lustful sin–which is actually way more common among Christian young people than many people think–of course that's going to be confessed, and it will probably be very beneficial to discreetly talk about how he went through that–not like a memoir of the sin addiction, but stuff like–I fell into it when such-and-such happened… at such-and-such a time… my parents found out when such-and-such happened… I went through a course and got spiritual help… I struggled for however many years… installed such-and-such a filter on my computer… fully came out of it whenever. Or whatever the case may be.
Okay… sorry that scenario turned out so dark. But if someone didn't have something like that, they'll probably have some other sort of personal information about their testimony that it will be best to share.

But of course, neither am I saying that you should spontaneously delve into the deepest, innermost parts of you. If you're gonna have personal conversations like that, just make sure you're being discreet. (Just like with literally everything else.)

Oh, also! I don't know how I forgot to mention this. Excellent point about personal responsibility when it comes to allow your emotions to get overgrown. I love your word choice, "exclusively my own fault."
Don't eliminate guns just because they are so often used for murder. Stop abusing them!

No, I totally agree. I think that's a perfect example of why a "public place, private conversation" is the most appropriate. Because there will be more intimate details that come up that you perhaps wouldn't explain the same way in a group setting or around parents.

Oh, also! I don't know how I forgot to mention this. Excellent point about personal responsibility when it comes to allow your emotions to get overgrown. I love your word choice, "exclusively my own fault." Don't eliminate guns just because they are so often used for murder. Stop abusing them!

Lol, thanks. xD Yeah, I think that's a principle that gets overlooked. In some cases, it could be the system that's broken, but in other situations (probably more often than not) it's the people themselves.

No, I totally agree. I think that's a perfect example of why a "public place, private conversation" is the most appropriate. Because there will be more intimate details that come up that you perhaps wouldn't explain the same way in a group setting or around parents.

Yup. I was saying that your parents will probably already know about the whole thing, so it shouldn't make any difference. But I do get the aspect of psychologically inexplicable effects. Like when I'm voice acting, even, I do so much better alone than if someone is sitting there watching me. xD And I can easily see it being more awkward to recount such an incident to your parents than to tell it for the first time to the person you're courting.

Perfect example, with the voice acting thing. I always feel the same way about speeches. I feel almost perfectly comfortable about giving a speech – as long as I'm well-prepared – but if immediate family members will be in the audience… it becomes much more difficult. I had to do it once, and while I still felt like I did very well, there was more… pressure, I guess?… than if my parents were not there.

Same with my tours at the museum. I couldn't give a tour to my family… I mean, I could, but I would hate it. xD Can't even explain why…

Perfect example, with the voice acting thing. I always feel the same way about speeches. I feel almost perfectly comfortable about giving a speech -- as long as I'm well-prepared -- but if immediate family members will be in the audience... it becomes much more difficult. I had to do it once, and while I still felt like I did very well, there was more... pressure, I guess?... than if my parents were not there. Same with my tours at the museum. I couldn't give a tour to my family... I mean, I could, but I would hate it. xD Can't even explain why...

Oh. my. yes! XDDDD That's so weird and illogical, and yet it's such a strong reality! If I had to give a presentation to my family, I'd be giggling!

I really haven't read the article or anything that you all are talking about… but I agree that it's really hard to feel comfortable getting to know someone with your parents always at your elbow. It just won't happen for me.

I have already decided for myself that I don't want to "court" or "date"… I want to just know! XD shrugs I guess that doesn't happen in real life though. I just want it to be different. I don't want to sit down in the living room with my parents and a guy and feel forced to talk. I don't nesnecessarily want to go out alone with a guy. I want to blend in and be natural and yet get to know the person.

Edit - A friend of mine felt the same way. They just invited the young man along with them wherever they went somwhere (Bible study, softball, volleyball, etc.)- and so they got to know eachother. Yep! She's happily married now. :)

Know… that would be nice. :-P

Know... that would be nice. :-P

If it was that easy, everyone would be doing it. :P

Know... that would be nice. :-P

Lol. I think it does happen sometimes, though. Not necessarily in the way she's saying, but I think she's on to something with just wanting to get to know someone in no other setting than friendship and then just knowing that there's compatibility. Obviously you have to go on from there somehow, and whether that's dating, traditional dating, courting, or betrothal is up to each individual, but I think that's the best, most ideal start. At least from my experience.

I'd agree with that. If you don't already know each other well, become better friends (and your families too, for that matter), before starting any relationship with the goal of marriage.

Well, why not just know?! Then the young man could talk to the father, and get his approval (and then the father could talk to the daughter), and then they could get married! Couldn't it be that simple?

But there has to be a time of getting to know each other. =P You can't just skip that part. xP

But there has to be a time of getting to know each other. =P You can't just skip that part. xP

And that time of cheesy pick-up lines.

"Hay guuuuuuuuurl! What's your sine? I hope it's π/2, because you are the one!"

^Math jokes…^

Can't you get to know eachother well enough as friends?

Well, why not just know?! Then the young man could talk to the father, and get his approval (and then the father could talk to the daughter), and then they could get married! Couldn't it be that simple?

Then all the complications would happen in the marriage. :-P If you get to know each other better before the marriage, you have more time to think and prepare if there are complications that can be worked around. (Complications that can't be worked around should come up while the guy is still talking to the dad.) To be surprised by them after the marriage would be harder to handle.

Besides, when the guy talks to the dad, the girl might not love the guy enough to marry him; but she might want to get to know him to see if she could love him.

Can't you get to know eachother well enough as friends?

And risk experiencing the horror of the friendzone?!?

^Nathan, I know you got that one. XD^

Well, yeah, that's what I've been trying to say… Actually, lemme go find something for you. It's a definition of betrothal that's actually pretty much along the lines of what you're asking about. It's pretty close to the way I'd like to go about things, so maybe you'll benefit from it as well:

In a betrothal model, there is no intermediate courtship stage. There is friendship and then there is betrothal or engagement. The two young people initially get to know each other as friends, in a non-romantic setting. They may do this at family get-togethers, or in church or group functions. Ideally, in a betrothal setting, a young man will evaluate a potential wife based on an objective set of Biblical standards and criteria, and if he feels God wants him to marry a certain young woman, he submits this idea to his parents.If his parents affirm that he should propose to a certain young lady, he then talks to her father. You may have heard the archaic term “pledging your troth.” It sounds funny, but it means that you are pledging your “loyalty, faithfulness and devotion.” Thus the young man makes a binding commitment to the young woman, and pledges to be faithful to her as long as they both shall live. If the father rejects the young man’s offer, the young man should have the integrity to move on with his life, and not hurt the emotions of the young lady. She should never know he has even proposed.
If the young woman’s father feels that this young man is the one who should marry his daughter, he and his wife talk to their daughter, and the decision is left with her. Her reply to the young man must be one that is approached with sobriety and prayer. If she says no, the father tells the young man, and he respects the young lady’s wishes. (A betrothal is not in any way a prearranged marriage which leaves the young people with no choice in the matter of who they marry. Even the Biblical Rebekah was asked if she would go away and marry Isaac. The decision was hers.) If she is in agreement, they become betrothed, or engaged, and set a date for the wedding.During the betrothal stage, they have the freedom to become emotionally bonded with each other, since both have committed to marriage. Betrothal is similar to courtship in that it insists that the young people must avoid inordinate physical contact. In fact, my wife and I kissed for the first time at the wedding altar.In Biblical times, a betrothal was legally binding and in order to break off a betrothal the young man had to give his betrothed a certificate of divorce. They were considered legally bound and committed to marriage. – Israel Wayne

I like that method too. =)

But there has to be a time of getting to know each other. =P You can't just skip that part. xP

And that time of cheesy pick-up lines. "Hay guuuuuuuuurl! What's your sine? I hope it's π/2, because you are the one!" ^Math jokes...^

Took me a second… =p If there's one area of math I hated, it was trig. =p

But there has to be a time of getting to know each other. =P You can't just skip that part. xP

And that time of cheesy pick-up lines. "Hay guuuuuuuuurl! What's your sine? I hope it's π/2, because you are the one!" ^Math jokes...^

Took me a second... =p If there's one area of math I hated, it was trig. =p

Wut??? Trig is awesome! You got lots of neat little rules that make everything basically a substitution problem!

I like that method too. =)

Yeah, I think it takes care of most of the problems with protecting hearts; allows the young man to decide for himself, based on personal interactions with as many girls he wants (usually in family settings, but not necessarily exclusively); and then it goes right along with what Sarah wanted – friendship that leads almost directly into a commitment to marriage, once both parties decide that the other is "the one." ;)

And so far, it looks like it'd work best for me with what I'm looking to do someday.

But there has to be a time of getting to know each other. =P You can't just skip that part. xP

And that time of cheesy pick-up lines. "Hay guuuuuuuuurl! What's your sine? I hope it's π/2, because you are the one!" ^Math jokes...^

Took me a second... =p If there's one area of math I hated, it was trig. =p

Wut??? Trig is awesome! You got lots of neat little rules that make everything basically a substitution problem!

Okay, I shouldn't say I hate it. It was just the most tedious math I ever came across. There isn't really any area of math that I hate, per se, but that one was the one I… liked the least. =P

Yes! I like that idea! Thanks for sharing that!

Okay, just, wow.

Okay, just, wow. http://www.thomasumstattd.com/2014/09/courtship-pickup-lines/

XD Oh my!

ROTFL

Number 4…

As far as I understood in context with other conversations I had with other memversers, though, betrothal seems to emphasize pledging yourself before you really know what you are pledging. If you commit early enough, there is no possibility of pain at refusal or things of that nature. To me, though, that seems a bit flawed in that I think we should have some sort of connection with the person before we make a commitment. Your definition says that, to a degree, but it seems to also prohibit emotional bonding before the betrothal. I don't know about any of you, but I am pretty sure that I want to bond/understand someone on at least some emotional level before I make the choice to marry them. Marriage doesn't seem to me like a logical choice (let's go down the list objectively and see who meets the criteria). If that were so, it would seem like I could ask many young women I know for permission to marry. A relationship seems to call for at least some interest emotionally (and, to a degree that maintains purity, romantically) in order for someone to make a wise decision that they will not be dissatisfied with later on. It keeps people from having to look back and wish he or she had not been so hasty and had gotten to know their betrothed at a deeper level than objective standards before they signed their life away to them. It just seems to me that people are so afraid of "giving their heart away" (I still don't really know what they mean by that) that they choose to reject emotions and love in the process altogether, when it seems that it should play some role.

I know that you are not really saying all of this (at least, you agree that you should, for at least some time before betrothal, be friends). I was just spouting off some of my scattered thoughts on this subject (betrothal and courtship and all that). Feel free to disagree or disregard. :)

ROTFL Number 4...

IKR? XD

Haha! Those are the best. XD

How about other Christian pick-up lines:

Is your name faith? Because you're the substance of things hoped for. ;)

Now I know why Solomon had 700 wives. Because he never met you.

So last night I was reading in the book of Numbers, and I realized… I don't have yours!

I didnt believe in predestination until tonight. :)

This kind of betrothal allows for "being in love", just not active romance expressed toward each other.

ROTFL Number 4...

IKR? XD

I'm not sure what I would do if someone told me that about my daughter…

Or Calvinist pickup lines:

Is your name Grace? Because you're irresistible…

We're predestined. God sovereignly rearranged the alphabet and put U and I together.

I hope you believe in the Perseverance of the Saints, because I plan to persevere in this relationship to the very end.

Caution: Possible response: I'm going to use my free will to slap you in the face and tell you to leave.

I suppose so, in a way. :) I guess then that I was talking more about the more extreme form of betrothal (like from the True Love Doesn't Wait blog, if you've seen it).

Wow! Haha! Those are amazing. XD

You have valid points, Jimmy. My response would be that I have very good girl-friends with whom I have a significant emotional bond. So I think with the right kind of friendship, that step is already out of the way. The key is not having a romantic/emotional bond that leads someone on to the point that marriage is in the picture when you aren't even at the point of engagement where that's pretty much the foregone conclusion. I think the guy's main point is, don't get so involved when you're not sure it will work out. But when you've been friends with someone for a while, and you've got every reason to believe it should work out, because you've had enough time to evaluate them and determine compatibility, then the next step should be a deep commitment, not the start of something that implies a deep commitment, but that isn't really there yet.

I feel like I didn't state all of that very well…

I suppose so, in a way. :) I guess then that I was talking more about the more extreme form of betrothal (like from the True Love Doesn't Wait blog, if you've seen it).

Yeah, this definitely isn't the extreme form of betrothal that reeks more of arranged marriage.