Can you lose your salvation?

Absolutely no need to apologize. :) And, of course, I completely agree with what you said as well. I'd answer the same thing to you, SoulWinner, no one can turn away from the "narrow way" to life once they have been saved. They did not choose to save themselves, so they cannot choose to "unsave" themselves. Also, as Bethany said, once a person is saved, God gives them the desire to stay in Him, and they will never want to turn away from Him, realizing their incredible sinfulness and His incredible mercy.

@SBG thank you very much for your informative reply. I realize that I did not completely understand your position, so thank you for clarifying.

First, I want to apologize for my pride I displayed in my last post. While I do believe that the issue of doctrine cannot be taken lightly, it should never be done so in a prideful attitude.

I think now that you have explained yourself, your understanding of salvation is very similar to mine. I still have one area that I am unsure of, though.

You mentioned that as soon as a person prays the sinners prayer as recorded in Romans 10:9, they are saved. However, this does not mean that they are bound for heaven. Would you please explain to me the difference between "saved" and "bound for heaven"? I honestly do not understand the difference you are making between the two, so please enlighten me. I was under the impression that since they have prayed that prayer, they are now saved. However, later in life, they can turn from their life of Christianity and live a life of depravity. If they would die in this depraved state without repentance, I believe that, scripturally, they would go to hell. Any comments?

Just to clarify, I had tried to show in my post that I did not believe that a simple prayer saves people. I said,

"a person is not saved just because they say they are. There are many, many people who think they are saved, but they are not. That is why Matthew 7:21-23 says what it says. I totally agree with you that those people who do not follow through with their confession of faith are not saved–but I do not believe, like you do, that they lost their salvation. They never had it, because they never truly believed in their heart all the things that Jesus' resurrection implies, such as their incapability to save themselves (otherwise Jesus would not have had to die and be resurrected) and Jesus' position as both God and man, fully both (if He were not fully man, He would not have been able to represent the human race in His death and resurrection, and both would have been in vain, and if He were not fully God, He would not be able to live a perfect life, and His death and resurrection would be in vain, again)."

A simple praying of the "sinner's prayer" usually does not save a sinner, as shown by their quick "backsliding" into sinfulness. I believe that this backsliding is due to the fact that they never "slid forward" in the first place. This is the case with many supposed Christians.

Also, I do not remember ever saying that "saved" and "bound for heaven" are two different things. If a person is saved, they are bound for heaven, and if they are bound for heaven, they are saved. Maybe I said that there is more involved in salvation than being bound for heaven, and you took that to mean that I thought the two were different things. I'd like to make it clear that I do not. Sorry for the confusion. :)

You also said, "I was under the impression that since they have prayed that prayer, they are now saved. However, later in life, they can turn from their life of Christianity and live a life of depravity. If they would die in this depraved state without repentance, I believe that, scripturally, they would go to hell."

I answered this partly in my comment above–many people who pray a prayer either do not mean it or the prayer is not covering all that is necessary for salvation. Therefore, they quickly turn away from their artificial faith. So yes, I agree that they can "turn from their life of Christianity and live a life of depravity" because they were always depraved, and their Christianity was not genuine.

No one loses their salvation. Either a person is saved once, and they will go to heaven, or they are never saved, and they will go to hell. Many people in the second category will profess salvation, but will not really be saved. Sometimes it is difficult to discern between a true Christian and a false convert, but we just need to look closely at their fruit.

Matthew 7:16-20:

"By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Just one more thing (I'm putting this post after my last one to keep it from becoming overwhelmingly large. :D). I want to show how this knowledge (that once a person is saved, he is always saved, and there are many who are making a false profession of faith) is quite essential to witnessing correctly. Consider this scenario. You tell a person that they are a sinner, and that God loves them so much that He sent His Son to die on the cross for our sins. This is good and true. They agree, and you lead them in a prayer that says that they acknowledge these things–they are sorry for their sins and believe that Christ died on the cross for them. Then you tell them that they are saved and can go on their way. But, according to God's Word, if they turn from this faith and go on sinning unrepentantly, they did not backslide, they are showing that they were never changed from a bad tree to a good tree in the first place. They are still bearing bad fruit, which a good tree cannot bear. So, we must conclude that this person was never truly saved.

Unfortunately, this scenario is going on all over the U.S., and the world. Untold thousands of people have been told that they are saved because of a prayer, and they conclude that they can keep on sinning and not be worried about it–they are going to heaven no matter what they do! This would seem to be a logical conclusion, if it were not for Romans 6. For the sake of keeping this post as small as possible, you can see that chapter for yourself. :) True Christians are so grateful to God that they want to stop sinning, and they start to do so. This is sanctification: it's never perfection, but it's in that direction. A falsely converted person never cares whether or not they sin, and they tend to show this clearly.

This is why it is so essential to give people to whom we are witnessing the whole story–not only the gospel, the good news, but the bad news first. The good news without the bad news is not good news! We must first make them understand and accept that, by God's standard, they are wretched sinners and can do nothing to gain acceptance with God. But after we beat them down, we give them hope. We THEN tell them that God is willing to save them, and He provided the means to do it in sending His Son, Jesus, to die on the cross for the sins of anyone who would believe on Him and repent of their sins. If they truly understand the bad news, this will be GREAT news! They don't have to fear of going to hell! They are saved!

But I have seen that it is always best to (and I know this will sound crazy) NOT tell them that they are saved, even if they did seem to pray a heartfelt prayer (coming up with their own words, not yours–if they are about to be saved, the Holy Spirit will help them with that!) and such. Why not?? Because we cannot immediately tell if a tree has been changed from good to bad. What if the tree is still bad, and we just don't know yet because it hasn't had a chance to prove that it is or isn't? If we tell them that they are saved, and they are not, they will make sure to say to anyone anyone who can tell, by the life the false converts are living, that they are not truly saved, "No, I'm saved! I prayed a prayer when I was fifteen, and now I can do anything I want!" So, be careful not to do that–we do not know everything.

I'm sorry for the large post (AGAIN–and I don't blame you if you didn't read all of it!), but this is something that I tend to defend firmly, since the belief that a simple prayer always, absolutely, saves someone is sending many people to hell today because they think that they are saved, when they are not. Thanks for your time. :)

P.S. I'm sure that these posts are a little muddled and confused… because I am, a little… so please just try to take out of it what it seems that I intended–I hope I made at least that clear enough! :)

@COS, I think I understand what you were trying to say. I realize that I may have been a bit unclear on the subject myself, so I will try to clarify.

First of all, I too do not believe that just because someone has prayed the sinners prayer, they can now do whatever they want and still be saved. If someone is not bearing good fruit with their life, they are obviously not a good tree, and John 15 tells us what happens to bad trees.

I think our difference is that I believe that everyone is saved if they pray (I should have said cry out, because that is different) for salvation, they are now spiritually reborn. This means that their spirit, which before was dead, is now alive, and can never die. However, their carnal mind resists the spiritual rebirth, and attempts to deaden the effects of it. If a person eventually allows the carnal mind to control his life, he has relinquished control of his life to Satan, and should no longer be considered "Christian." I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that there are people that have prayed the sinners prayer and are truly living as Christians. However, one part of the Christian doctrine that they disagree with, or the doctrine of a false prophet, may cause them to stumble and "fall from grace," so to speak. Again, I should have used the words "cry out" instead of "pray," because crying out is a realization that we need help and cannot provide it on our own.

I trust you can make sense of this rambling. I know that it is a bit scattered :)

I'm going to join in again on this conversation :)

You said - " I believe that everyone is saved if they cry out for salvation, they are now spiritually reborn."

Wait a second though - what is really the difference between "crying out" and "praying"? Technically, aren't they the same thing? I don't consider prayer as some half-hearted thing that God commands us to do. Prayer is "crying out" to God, whether in supplication, etc. One more thing that you said - "because crying out is a realization that we need help and cannot provide it on our own." that is exactly my definition of prayer - knowing that we cannot accomplish anything ourself, but we must come before God to provide.

Also, for clarification when you say "crying out for salvation" are you meaning like "the first time they do it"? Or not? I know that before I became a believer, it wasn't like the first time I cried out to God to save me, it happened. There were many times that I was crying out, before I truly believe that I was saved. But (at least to me, maybe though I'm reading into what you're saying) it sounds like you're saying that if anyone cries out to God, they are immediately saved. We do need to keep Romans 10:9-15 in mind, in this discussion. Salvation is to "those who confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in their heart that God raised Him from the dead".

So, my last question for you is, if someone "cries out" to the Lord, but doesn't really believe in their heart, would you say that they are saved?

If you would agree with me, maybe we could just start saying "believing" instead of "praying" or "crying out"….just a thought :P But then again, maybe you don't agree with me.

I hope I did not come across harsh; if so, I did not mean too. (Now, Nicolas, I'm anxious to hear what you have to say!)

Soli Deo Gloria!

First of all, I would like to discuss with you a point you made earlier in one of your posts. I believe you mentioned something to the effect that if works could not gain us our salvation, than works certainly could not loose it for us. How did Adam and Eve loose their salvation, or were they really never saved in the first place?

Thomas, I don't think anyone responded to this point so real quick: We believe that Adam and Eve started in a right relationship with God. They weren't saved at first – they didn't need to be saved, because they hadn't ever sinned.

I believe that God made a covenant of works with Adam and Eve, saying that if they obeyed him, they'd stay in a right relationship with him. They disobeyed and then hid from him, because their relationship had been destroyed.

Then, I believe God manifested the covenant of grace and they were saved through faith. This covenant is manifested throughout the Bible. The way I understand Scripture, everyone who's ever been saved has been saved by the grace of God through faith in Christ. (The OT pointed forward to him; the NT points backward and forward to him.) Good works flow from this faith; but just because there is sin doesn't mean faith isn't there…

Yes, we must keep believing; but I do believe that even faith is a gift of God. (I know there's multiple ways of reading Eph 2:8 but given the overall story of redemption and verses in John 6 I feel comfortable saying that faith is a gift.) And I believe God sustains the faith he creates. (The normal verse for that is Phil 1:6, but there are others.)

Good discussion!

@alex–Good points. Thanks for giving your insights into this discussion. :)

@Bethany–I'm not. ;P I don't consider my posts very good; I still have some theology to learn, as well as communication skills! :D

@Thomas–Sorry for misunderstanding your view on the sinner's prayer. But I hope my last post helps anyone who does believe the way I described.

We seem to agree on everything except one point: I believe that people, as you said, "truly living as Christians," cannot "'fall from grace,' so to speak," as you also said. All true Christians will be upheld by the Holy Spirit to not fall into the traps of false doctrine or the heresies of a false teacher. Many non-Christians do, almost exclusively those who are falsely converted to Christianity, but no true Christians do. People's rejection of key doctrines does not show their "falling from grace," but the fact that they were never in grace to begin with. If they are in grace, they cannot fall out of it; if it looks like they did, they were merely pretending (purposely or not) to be in grace.

That is why it is called grace–you cannot earn it. So why in the world would God allow someone to "unearn" it? If God saves a person who is sinning, He isn't going to let them go because they are still sinning. He keeps them in Him by His Holy Spirit.

I hope I can convince you of this! This is a pretty important doctrine if you want to feel secure in your faith. Once a person is in Christ, He will never let them go.

@Bethany, thank you for your interest. I realize that I may have been a bit unclear in my last post, so I will try to untangle some of those jumbled thoughts.

First of all, I believe that there is a difference between praying and crying out. I have heard some teaching on the subjects, and there is a difference. Otherwise, they could be used synonymously throughout the Bible. However, this is not the case. The best way I can think of is to put it into an allegory. Suppose you are a parent working at a project with your three month old child beside you in a seat. If the child wimpers, you will probably look over at them, but if they start screaming at the top of their lungs, you will most likely run quickly over to them to see if you can solve their problem. (Btw, this analogy is not origional with me. I got it from Dr. Bill Gothard who, as you may know by now, is one of my favorite theologians!) Prayer is the initial request you make to God when you have a problem, when you are asking for direction, when you are praying for someone else, when you are praising Him, etc. Crying out, on the other hand, is a cry of desperation. It is what you use when all else fails. It is your desperate, last-ditch cry for help. Now do you understand the difference between crying out for salvation and praying for it? When we pray, we realize that we have a problem. However, when we cry out, we realize that we have a problem too great for us to solve on our own. What is more, we are in danger of being overwhelmed if that problem is not solved rapidly. This, in turn, motivates us to cry out to God and ask Him to be the Lord and Saviour of our life.

If the definition of "crying out" is fully understood, why would someone cry out for help if they did not believe that person could help them? I know this may sound shallow, but I do not believe such a thing would happen. When we cry out to God, we are acknowledging that we do not have the solution, but He does.

Please do not think that I was saying salvation can be obtained solely by asking for it. I 100% believe that the heart must be right as well. Please forgive me for being vague on the subject.

To God be the glory!

P.S. If you want more information on crying out, the IBLP online store has a book entited "The Power of Crying Out." This would probably do a better job explaining the subject than I would.

Thomas - What Scriptures do you think support a difference between "praying" and "crying out"? If I missed part of the discussion, please refer me to it. Just trying to be an Acts 17:11 Berean. Thanks!

@SBG, thank you for your reply. I would have to agree with you, our core thinking is pretty much the same.

In reply to your answer about grace, I suppose I believe someone can lose their salvation because God is a God of choices. We can choose to follow Him, so naturally it would follow that we could choose not to follow Him. We can choose to reject Satan and follow Christ, so it would follow that we can choose to reject Christ and follow Satan. Also, I too do not believe that grace can be unearned. God's grace is a gift, and there is nothing we can do that disqualifies us from being eligible for that gift. However, I do believe that grace can be resisted, as Hebrews 12:15 tells us. I am sorry if I put you under the impression that we can force God to exclude us from His grace. I do not believe that at all! Nothing will separate us from His love, and we are secure in His hand.

By the way, if neither one of us is convincing the other, maybe it would be best to let the discussion drop. It seems to me that both of us are spinning our wheels. I don't want to waste your time, and I assume you don'w want to waste mine either. If you have any further comments, feel free to share them.

WARNING: Uh-oh, Thomas! You're about to get it from Nicolas! :) This post is full of Arminian arguments, and I know that Nicolas is a strict Calvinist.

@Matthew, one indicator to me is the different Greek words. The Greek root for the word pray is different from the Greek root for the word cried in the KJV. For example, in II Samuel 22:7, David says that "I…cried to my God." The word cried is translated as call, cried, and several other words in the Old Testament, but never as pray. This in itself is an indicator that they are two different terms. The definition of cried as used in II Samuel means, basically, to lift up your voice and call someone else, possibly for help. We don't fervently cry to the Lord to praise Him; rather, we cry to Him when we have an insurmountable obstacle in our way. Perhaps the confusion is that we don't cry out as Christians. Before I was introduced to the concept of crying out, I thought it was the same thing as praying, possibly fervent prayer. However, the two are not the same.

I understand that you want to be a good Berean. I most certainly do not want to "overthrow your faith" either.

To God be the glory!

"It seems to me that both of us are spinning our wheels. I don't want to waste your time, and I assume you don't want to waste mine either." I liked the last part, Thomas :) Very funny :P

Anyways, I'll probably leave the conversation (unless Nicolas needs another person to back him up…), because I just thought of something. Arminism is all joined together - meaning, that we can't prove to you that "you can't lose your salvation" till we show you that all the other points of Arminism are wrong as well. Just like, if you were trying to convince us that Calvinism is wrong, you couldn't just prove to us that one point is one, but that all 5 are wrong.

Though, I ask you one more question before I leave. How would you interpret John 6:39?

"And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day."

@Bethany, thank you for your provoking question. I never really spent much time thinking about it before. However, I will do my best, and leave the rest up to the Lord.

I think this verse should be interpreted in the light of the fact that we have an enemy. This enemy is working around the clock to deceive as many souls as possible in the limited amount of time he has. Now, for the other warring faction. According to I John 4:14, God has appointed Jesus to be the Savior of the world. Therefore, Jesus is also working around the clock to bring as many souls of men to Himself as He can. This is God's will for Him to do, according to II Peter 3:9. However, just because it is God's will does not mean that it will be done, since His will can be resisted. I do not believe that every single person on the world has been or will be saved, but Jesus is still working to save as many people as He can.

Just a few comments. If you have any more to add, I would be interested in hearing it.

Solo Deo Gloria!

Thanks, Matthew. Now I feel obligated to answer Thomas. ;P jk, jk

But anyway, I do HAVE to answer that third-to-last post you wrote, Thomas. It is true that that post is packed with Arminianism. I think that that is why we disagree. Arminians tend to believe that a person can lose their salvation because of that one point that you brought up. But I wholeheartedly disagree with you when you say that "God is a God of choices." Scripture reference, please! God does not just wait for people to choose Him, because, as Romans 3:12 says, "There is… no one who seeks God." If God did not cause a person's heart to change, and, therefore, want to repent and have faith in Him, then they would never choose Him! Because of their sinful nature, they are unable to choose Him! Sorry for all the exclamation points, but I am rather firm in defending this important issue.

You said, "Also, I too do not believe that grace can be unearned. God's grace is a gift, and there is nothing we can do that disqualifies us from being eligible for that gift. However, I do believe that grace can be resisted, as Hebrews 12:15 tells us. I am sorry if I put you under the impression that we can force God to exclude us from His grace. I do not believe that at all! Nothing will separate us from His love, and we are secure in His hand."

I don't quite understand the distinction you are making between "forc[ing] God to exclude us from His grace" and resisting it, which you said can be done. It seems to me that those are one and the same, and neither are possible. As is one of the five points of Calvinism, God's grace is irresistible. This is obvious because of man's total depravity, which is another of the five points. As I said before, unless God's grace is irresistible, we will not choose God–we cannot!

You also said, "By the way, if neither one of us is convincing the other, maybe it would be best to let the discussion drop. It seems to me that both of us are spinning our wheels. I don't want to waste your time, and I assume you don'w want to waste mine either. If you have any further comments, feel free to share them."

I don't want to waste your time, but I sure do want to convince you of this! This is, I think, an important issue, even if not essential. We want to make sure we have our doctrines right, and I think that the perseverance of the saints (meaning that Christians cannot lose their salvation, because God does not allow it–another of the five points of Calvinism!) is one of those right doctrines. I would like to keep debating this, if you are willing. :)

@SBG, thank you for your reply. I will try to do my best to answer your questions.

First of all, you asked me about God being a God of choices. I gathered this inferance from Genesis 2:16-17 where God says, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." God gave Adam and Eve a choice: obey Me or disobey Me. He did not say, "There is no way you can disobey Me; that is simply not an option. Whether you like it or not, you will be my servants." Rather, he gave them the choice whether they wanted to obey Him or disobey Him.You are right when you say that no man can seek God. I suppose I forgot about that aspect of salvation (my apologies!). Also, it says in John 6:44, "No man can come to me, except the Father Which hath sent me draw him…" But if it is God's will that all be saved, why does He not draw all people to Himself? I believe that He created a mechanism, called the conscience, that convicts people of wrongdoing, and shows them their need for a Savior. However, I Timothy 4:2 tells us that the conscience can be "seared," which usually means burned until the pain is gone. I would infer by that statement that our conscience will not feel painful to us if we sin so much that we become dull to its promptings.

When I was talking about grace being unearned, I did not mean for it to come accross that way. If that is what I said, please forgive me for that statement! There is nothing we can do to "earn" grace from God. However, grace is a gift from God to us. When we are offered a gift, we have two choices: to accept it or to refuse it. When I was talking about God forcing us to resist His grace, I was trying to disclaim that. I do not believe that we can "unearn" His grace, since we cannot do anything to earn it anyhow. We are not going to "force" God to do anything. (Again, my sincere apologies for putting you under that impression!)

Finally, I would like to make this point: just because I believe that Christians can "fall from grace" so to speak, I do believe that Christians can have full assurance of salvation. You see, when a person becomes born again, he receives a new authority in his life. Before his conversion, he was ruled by his will; after his conversion, he is ruled by God's Spirit. However, I Thessalonians warns us to "quench not the Spirit." By this, I would gather that if we resist God's Spirit enough without repenting of our sins (there is also a difference between asking forgiveness for sins and repenting of sins), He will be greived and His power through us will be quenched because of our rebellion. When we abandon God's Spirit and allow our will to rule our life, we do not deserve to be called by the label of Christian.

Now I would like to ask you a question. Suppose a person makes a profession of faith, and accepts Christ Jesus as Savior of their life. This person is now saved. However, let us suppose he or she falls into a life of reprobation, and dies in this reprobation. If they were eternally sanctified, were they saved when they died, or not?

Just curious to hear your thoughts. Solo Deo Gloria!

"But if it is God's will that all be saved, why does He not draw all people to Himself?" Where is the verse that says it is God's "will" to have all people to himself? It says in 2 Peter 3:9 that he WISHES that all would come to him, but that is completely different than 'will'.

"Now I would like to ask you a question. Suppose a person makes a profession of faith, and accepts Christ Jesus as Savior of their life. This person is now saved. However, let us suppose he or she falls into a life of reprobation, and dies in this reprobation. If they were eternally sanctified, were they saved when they died, or not?"

We would say this - THEY WERE NEVER A TRUE BELIEVER IN THE FIRST PLACE. A true believer cannot lose their salvation! So, if after many years of "seemingly following Christ" and then spend the last 20 years in sin and never repenting (and died that way), we would say that they never really knew Christ in the first place.

You know someone by their fruits. If seemingly they seem good for a little while, but then in the end turn 180, and live a wicked life and then die that way, we would say that they weren't saved in the first place. A true believer cannot live in sin for a long period of time, hating God, and then die that way.

One more thing - you say that we can have assurance as believers - how could any believer, if they knew that they could, at any time, lose that salvation?

Solo Deo Gloria!

@Thomas: You said "just because I believe that Christians can "fall from grace" so to speak, I do believe that Christians can have full assurance of salvation." This is completely true, and I agree with everything you said. What you said reminded me of a big problem that I can see with Calvinism. (For the record, I am Arminian.) I have a question for Calvinists: If Calvinism is true, how can I be truly assured in this life that I am saved? I mean, what if I'm one of the people that God reserved for hell before time began? What if I just THINK I'm saved, but I am not truly saved?

@Thomas - "However, just because it is God's will does not mean that it will be done, since His will can be resisted." I forgot to answer about this part of what you said. Are you saying, that if someone "doesn't want to be a Christian" they can resist God's will in that way?

@Matthew - Your question: "If Calvinism is true, how can I be truly assured in this life that I am saved? I mean, what if I'm one of the people that God reserved for hell before time began? What if I just THINK I'm saved, but I am not truly saved?"

First off, you can be assured, if you look at your life and you are measuring up to Christ's commands - obeying Him, loving others, and all the other commands that he gives us. Yes, believers will sin at times, but they will repent and continue going on the path of Life. In Pilgrim's Progress, Christian strayed away from the right path at times, but in the end he was repenting and returning again. Does that make sense?

If you are destined for hell, from the foundations of the world, you will not fully fall through with desiring salvation. You may have the desire (like those in the parable of the sower), but in the end, it will turn to nothing (like those when the birds came, the riches choked out the word, etc.). You may think that you are, but in the end it will turn to nothing. You may even think for your entire life that you are saved, but you are deceiving yourself, because your life would not match up.

So, to explain better, those whom God destined for hell, will never truly fully desire God and his salvation and follow through with seeking Him and his Word.

"…you can be assured, if you look at your life and you are measuring up to Christ's commands - obeying Him, loving others, and all the other commands that he gives us." Okay, so what about Charles Templeton? For much of his life, wasn't he a great example of obedience to Christ, loving others, and all the other commands that Christ gives us? And yet he died an unbeliever.

Also, you said "those whom God destined for hell, will never truly fully desire God and his salvation and follow through with seeking Him and his Word." I believe that I truly fully desire God and His salvation. But how can I be sure (if Calvinism is true) beyond a shadow of a doubt that that desire is true and full?

And I would add to that, Bethany, no one knows if they are predestined to Hell or Heaven, so there's no use making decisions based on either one. The point is, you are commanded to obey the general call of the gospel to repent and believe. If you do so, you know that you were one that God predestined to heaven. If you die an unbeliever and wake up in judgment and God sends you to hell, you can be assured that He predestined you to Hell. We can't know any more than that.

Oh my… I think this is going to be a long post…

@Matthew–I'll answer you first because you wrote less than Thomas. :D

First of all, you said, challenging Calvinism: "If Calvinism is true, how can I be truly assured in this life that I am saved? I mean, what if I'm one of the people that God reserved for hell before time began? What if I just THINK I'm saved, but I am not truly saved?"

Then you need to look at yourself. Bethany answered you well: "First off, you can be assured, if you look at your life and you are measuring up to Christ's commands - obeying Him, loving others, and all the other commands that he gives us. Yes, believers will sin at times, but they will repent and continue going on the path of Life." You need to closely examine your life to see if you are bearing the fruit the Bible talks about, and if you hate and are trying to destroy the sin in your life. If you are unrepentant in some areas, if you don't have much of an interest for God or the Bible, or if you couldn't care less about loving others, watch out.

You said in your last comment, "What about Charles Templeton? For much of his life, wasn't he a great example of obedience to Christ, loving others, and all the other commands that Christ gives us? And yet he died an unbeliever." You can be sure that if you closely examined his life, he would not truly be bearing good fruit. Many look like Christians outwardly, but are not. Some, like Charles Templeton, make obvious the fact that they were never saved after a while, but others deceive others, and even themselves sometimes, their entire lives, only to hear Jesus say, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

The last thing you said was: "I believe that I truly fully desire God and His salvation. But how can I be sure (if Calvinism is true) beyond a shadow of a doubt that that desire is true and full?" Examine yourself. It's as simple as that. If one does this and finds himself to be an unbeliever, he should immediately repent and put his trust in Jesus alone. If he has genuinely done this, he WILL go to heaven.

@Thomas–Now here comes the long part. takes a deep breath :)

The first thing you said was: "First of all, you asked me about God being a God of choices. I gathered this inferance from Genesis 2:16-17 where God says, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat; but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof, thou shalt surely die." God gave Adam and Eve a choice: obey Me or disobey Me. He did not say, "There is no way you can disobey Me; that is simply not an option. Whether you like it or not, you will be my servants." Rather, he gave them the choice whether they wanted to obey Him or disobey Him."

I definitely agree that Adam and Eve were given free will. But that was the only time that free will was given. That time was called the covenant of life. But when Adam sinned, the covenant of life was broken, and the will of every person became enslaved to sin. When they are saved, they are a "slave" to Christ, the gracious Master, to do His will.

Bethany also answered you when you argued that, according to Calvinism, it seems that God would call all people to Himself since He wants to, according to 2 Peter 3:9. But, as Bethany said, there is a distinction between His secret will, like who He will save, and His revealed will—that He would like to save everyone. But He has only chosen a select number so as to glorify both His mercy and grace and His justice and wrath.

Also, I agree with you on your idea of the conscience. It is meant to prick the conscience when the person it affects does something sinful, and it can be suppressed, and, eventually, the person becomes numb to it if they suppress it long enough. But it seems that you are using this to say that the conscience is what God has given man to bring him to salvation on his own. I believe that He uses the conscience, yes, but He must “force” a person to come to Him. But this forcing is the same as how a baby is “forced” out of the womb. It has no choice but to come out, but it does not come unwillingly (okay, I guess it is screaming, but that’s sorta beside the point. :D). In the same way (kind of), God is the only one who can make us to come out of our life of sinfulness and be born again into His kingdom. We cannot choose God, as I said before, so absolutely all of salvation is by His working. We do absolutely nothing in it, because, even though we do repent and have faith in Him, it is all by His power.

I wish I could say more, but I have to go. I think that Bethany answered the rest pretty well. Thank you for your respectfulness—you display that quality quite a bit better than I do. :) And thank you for reading this long post.

So, let me get this straight, are some of you saying you don't believe in eternal salvation and this is all hit and miss for you, and that by some luck of the draw you may get it, if your good enough?

Matthew Minica and Thomas Youngman are not saying what you just described–they just believe that it is possible to lose your salvation. I'm almost SURE that they do not believe that you will be saved if you are "good enough"! :)

It has to be one or the other. "Good enough" is probably too simple a term. But if its not by grace then it has to be a works religion aka being "good"

Rom 11: 6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

Eternal insecurity is a pretty rough place to be, wreaks havoc on the mind.

I may be misinterpreting this whole thing. Sorry if I am.

@Nicholas, I must admit you do make a convincing case. It is good to see someone so passionate about their beliefs.

First, in reply to your post about Christians bearing good fruit, I suppose that my beliefs are much the same as yours, only they seem to come out differently. I believe that Christians bear fruit that evidences a truly repentant life. However, I do not believe that God "forces" them to become a Christian: it is their own choice. An example of God giving someone a choice to obey or not to obey Him is also found in Deuteronomy 30:15-20. God gave Israel the choice of whether or not they were going to obey Him. He also made them aware of the consequences of both decisions. This relationship with Israel was symbolic of Christ's relationship with us. He redeemed us from sin, and gave us the opportunity to follow Him. There are good consequences for following Him, and bad consequences for choosing not to follow Him. These were the choices given to the Israelites in the Old Testament, and nowhere do I find that these were removed in the New Testament.

Now for your answer about the conscience. I don't think that God necessarily uses the conscience to bring people to Himself all on their own, but that He uses it as a supplement to cause people to turn from their sins and follow Him. Again, I believe that this is their own free choice to make.

Now, I have a question for you. If some people are eternally saved and others are not, why does Satan tempt believers, if some of them will never be seduced? Suppose he knew which people are eternally saved and which ones are not. Would he even bother to tempt those who are truly saved, since he will not succeed in seducing them anyway?

I am anticipating your response. Solo Deo Gloria!

@Thomas I am not very skilled in theology. But Christ was tempted by Satan even though Satan knew that he would not be able to overcome Him. We are also tempted through our old man aka the body. Even though we are being sanctified through Christ and Him dwelling in us. "But every man is tempted when He is drawn away of His own lusts and enticed." - James 1:14 Satan also knows that his doom is coming even though he doesn't want to admit it. It's possible that he would know some people would be saved but still attempts to take them out of our father's hand. As Jesus said " My Father which gave them me is greater than all and no one can take them out of my father's hand. I and my Father am one." I hope that Nicholas answers as I am very bad at theology and putting my views into writing. But if you have any other questions for me please ask them!! I love to think!

Also, even though God is a God of choices ( I don't know if this was brought up earlier in the discussion I'll go back and read.) But it is not that God does not allow man to choose Him But we in our sinful state WILL NOT choose God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins and there is none that will seek after God. Here is a point that I have to come to we are either slaves of God or we are slaves of Satan. " No man can be a slave of two masters for either he will love the one and hate the other or else he will hold to the one and despise the other you cannot be a slave God and mammon.) Remember who owns you?

Also, even though God is a God of choices ( I don't know if this was brought up earlier in the discussion I'll go back and read.) But it is not that God does not allow man to choose Him But we in our sinful state WILL NOT choose God. We are dead in our trespasses and sins and there is none that will seek after God. Here is a point that I have to come to we are either slaves of God or we are slaves of Satan. " No man can be a slave of two masters for either he will love the one and hate the other or else he will hold to the one and despise the other you cannot be a slave God and mammon.) Remember who owns you?

Good response, God's Bondslave. Now, here's mine.

As for the question you asked me, the answer is simple: he wants to make Christians as unfruitful as possible. He's going to be destroyed someday, and he wants to take as many as he can with him into hell, so he tries to keep those who are commanded to witness to unbelievers from doing so by various ways, and he also preoccupies them with their own sins and temptations. He is not trying to make them lose their salvation–I think that such is impossible.

Now for the first part of your comment. You rightly said that God gave Israel a choice to do right and be blessed or to do wrong and be cursed. But this is a different situation than salvation. It was possible to follow God's commands in Israel and still not be saved–believing in the Messiah to come. But with salvation, it is a different story. As I said, God MUST make someone come to Him, or they never will. We cannot seek God on our own, so He must bring us to Him. I hate to say that he "forces" us to come to Him, because that makes it seem like we come kicking and screaming. What I mean is that He changes our hearts to want to follow Him, and then we do. If we were the ones who made the choice, God wouldn't get all the glory in saving a person–which is His whole purpose in doing it in the first place.

If you believe this, then you also have to believe that a person cannot lose their salvation–if it was not their choice to become saved, it is not their choice to reject their faith again. God changed our hearts at salvation, and we would never leave Him because of that changed heart.

Again, thanks for your courteousness.

P.S. My name is spelled N-i-c-o-l-a-s. :D I'm just a bit overtouchy on how my name is spelled. :) Not a big deal–just wanted to point it out.

@Matthew and Thomas – Well, today, in our meeting the topic got started on, if someone could lose their salvation. I tried paying very close attention to what my dad had to say about the subject.

So, I have another question for you both - how would you interpret Hebrews 12:1-2 and Philippians 1:6?

It makes it clear that God will finish what he begins. Though, that makes a trouble for you, because you say that people can lose that salvation. Your belief totally contradicts this - because you're saying that God does not finish what began in these lives of someone who believed but then lost it.

How would you interpret these verses?

Also, Thomas, I don't know if you say my last comment, but I'd be interested in hearing what you have to say about my question to you.

All – There is a good article here: http://carm.org/questions/about-doctrine/can-believer-lose-his-salvation

Thanks Alex! That was very Good.

@Bethany, thank you for your question. I have enjoyed this discussion very much, and it has caused me to think a lot about my beliefs on salvation.

In answer to your question about interpreting Hebrews 12:1-2, Jesus is called the Author and Finisher of our faith in the KJV. (I don't know what it says in the version you use.) The Greek definition of the word author is basically a leader or a pioneer in a particular thing. The word finisher is defined as "one who has in his own person raised faith to its perfection and so set before us the highest example of faith." Jesus made our faith perfect or complete. Before Jesus, our faith was incomplete, because our sins could not be taken away. They could be covered by the blood of a sacrifice, but they were not imputed away from us. This only came when Christ died on the cross and made such a removal of sins possible.

In regards to Philippians 1:6, I believe that Jesus Christ has a purpose for every person that was created. This purpose will be fulfilled, whether or not that person is a Christian. As we learn from II Timothy 2:13, God is faithful even when we are not. Furthermore, in the context of the passage, Paul was not speaking of their salvation. Rather, this verse is in the middle of a list of commendations he is making to the Philippine church.

I will have to look at your last comment and see what you said. Thank you for your reply.

@Bethany, God's will does come to pass, but I do believe that it can be resisted. A prime example is the life of Jonah. God commanded him to go to Nineveh and cry against it. However, Jonah clearly disobeyed God by taking a ship to Tarshish. Granted, he did eventually go to Nineveh, but only after he delayed in his obedience.

Now I have a question for you. I Kings 13 records the story of a man of God that prophesied against king Jeroboam of Israel. The story is a bit long to go into details here, but the prophet disobeyed the Lord's express command. Was he resisting the will of God, or not? Your thoughts would be appreciated.

@God's Bondslave, thank you for joining the discussion, as well as correcting me on that point. You are right when you say that we cannot seek after God on our own. I am sorry for saying otherwise, because the fact that we cannot come to Christ on our own is scripturally sound. John 6:44 specifically tells us that no man can come to Jesus except God draws him. However, this presents a problem for those that believe in eternal salvation. If we cannot confess Jesus Christ as Lord without the help of the Holy Spirit (I Corinthians 12:3), how can we confess Him as Lord without being a Christian? According to John 6:44, we can only follow Christ with the help of God. Why would God help someone follow Christ if they are not going to be saved anyhow? Finally, God wants all of us to be saved, as II Peter 3:9 tells us. If that is really what He wants, why can't all of us be saved? Why are there some that can be saved and some that cannot? Please understand that I am not trying to personally attack anyone here, but I am trying to do a critique of the position of eternal security. If you or anyone else has any further comments, I would welcome them.

Solo Deo Gloria!

@SBG, thank you for your reply. I don't know about you, but I am enjoying this discussion. By the way, my apologies on misspelling your name.

In answer to your comment, you are right when you say that we cannot seek God on our own. I do believe that to be true. We can want Him, but we cannot seek Him without His help. However, I do not believe that when He seeks us, He "pulls us into a relationship with Himself," so to speak. I believe that salvation is a gift. He draws us to Himself, thus making this gift available. Also, since it is a gift, He still receives all the glory for our salvation. We do not receive any credit for it, because we are the recipient. We may have chosen to receive His gift of salvation, but salvation was not an option for any of us until God offered it. It is true that we have been given new hearts, but we still have our carnal mind, as Romans 8 talks about. This carnal mind will not and cannot be subjected to the law of God. Therefore, there is a continual warfare within ourselves as Christians: the flesh wars against the mind. The test of our salvation is which we allow to be stronger. If we mortify, or deaden, our flesh and feed our spirit, our spirit will be victorious, and vice versa.

Thank you for your patience and courteousness. It has been a pleasure debating with you.

God bless!

But if we still aren't saved until we accept God's gift of salvation, wouldn't our acceptance be necessary for our salvation and thus a work on our part?

I'm enjoying the discussion too. And there's absolutely no need to apologize about the misspelling–as I said, I'm just overtouchy about it. :)

Anyway, I'm not understanding how you are differentiating "seeking God" and "wanting God." I believe that if we cannot seek God, we certainly cannot want Him! That is the whole point of salvation; God gets all the glory for it because He did it ALL. Also, I see a little bit of conflicting ideas in your next few sentences. You said, "I believe that salvation is a gift. He draws us to Himself, thus making this gift available. Also, since it is a gift, He still receives all the glory for our salvation. We do not receive any credit for it, because we are the recipient. We may have chosen to receive His gift of salvation, but salvation was not an option for any of us until God offered it." I agree with all of this. But there is just one small, yet very large, difference. I believe that God causes us to want the gift, and therefore receive it. If we are able to accept the gift on our own, then it gives us a little glory. How? We had the ability to reject it, but we decided to receive it. Isn't this rather like saying that we did something good to receive our salvation? Sure, it's not like we are trying to outweigh our sinfulness, like all false religions are, but it still is like we are doing a good work to be saved. That is why I stay away from believing that. It's not logical, and it seems to go against Scripture, though subtly so.

Another thing you said: "It is true that we have been given new hearts, but we still have our carnal mind, as Romans 8 talks about. This carnal mind will not and cannot be subjected to the law of God. Therefore, there is a continual warfare within ourselves as Christians: the flesh wars against the mind. The test of our salvation is which we allow to be stronger. If we mortify, or deaden, our flesh and feed our spirit, our spirit will be victorious, and vice versa." I also agree with everything you said here, but I disagree with the implications. True, the carnal mind does not follow the law of God and tries to seduce us into doing the same, but since the entire rest of our being is dead to that carnal mind, it has no true power over us. We have the choice to fall to temptation or to follow Christ, yes, but we are still "slaves" to Christ, the good Master. That means that we cannot truly follow the carnal mind, nor can we become slaves to it again–we are dead to it! We are not going to live to it again! We are never perfect here on earth, but we cannot completely fall into sin again; God keeps us from doing that, because He has promised to do so.

Ditto on your second-to-last sentence; it has been a pleasure here as well. As for your third-to-last sentence, I'd have to disagree. I'm being patient and courteous? Well, all I'll say to that is that you should not follow my example if you are attempting to develop polite and courteous debating skills. I tend to get a bit too heated a bit too quickly. :)

Anyway, God bless you as well!

@COS, not a work on our part. I Corinthians 12:3 (a passage that I alluded to in an earlier post) tells us that we cannot even declare that Jesus is Lord without the help of the Holy Ghost! Therefore, we cannot take credit for accepting the gift of salvation, since it took the help of God for us to even make a declaration of Jesus' Lordship with our mouths. Does this make sense?

@SBG, good reply! I do appreciate how you are giving solid answers to my questions and in your comments as well.

As for what you said about seeking God, perhaps I used the wrong wording here. What I should have said is that we realize that we NEED God. When we realize that need, we are willing to deaden our mortal body and our carnal affections, and accept the Lordship of Christ.

As to your question about us receiving the glory for our salvation, see the above post that I wrote in reply to ChiefofSinners. I trust that it explains my understanding of this concept.

As to your last paragraph, I too believe that we are "slaves" to Christ. However, Romans 6 talks about us yielding our members as instruments unto sin. To yield means to give over to, doesn't it? And if we can give our members to sin, doesn't that mean that we can make ourselves slaves to sin? It seems to me that since mankind became slaves to sin because of our own free will, we also become slaves to Christ of our own free will. Yes, I do believe that there is nothing in and of ourselves that we could do to be saved from the bondage of sin. However, love is a choice. God so loved us that He sent his only Son to die for us. This was true love: it was voluntary. God was not "obliged" to save mankind; rather, He chose to do so. In the same way, Christ gives us choices of whether or not to follow Him. If there was not a choice, it would not be love. Granted, there may be some that choose to love Him rather than turn from Him. However, abundance of iniquity deadens our love (Matthew 24:12). We have to choose Christ over anything else to truly love Him.

Finally, I would be interested in hearing your comment on the post I wrote to Bethany Pentimone.

Thanks for replying. Solo Deo Gloria!

@Thomas Thanks! I'm not sure about 1 Cor. 12:3 but I do know that in Matthew 7 it says " MANY shall say to me in that day Lord Lord, did we not prophesy in thy name and in thy name cast out devils and in thy name do many wonderful works and I will say unto them I NEVER knew you depart from me ye that work iniquity." We CANNOT follow Christ without being saved we can make an outward sign of morals and put on a shell. but as 1 John says " They went out from us because they were not of us." Your third question is a question that I myself am still struggling with. A good website that helped me with this is www.ligonier.org. We have to differentiate between God's (desire) will and God's will that will be carried out. Thanks so much for letting me in on the conversation and I am willing to be corrected by anyone. Let us sharpen one another for I really believe that times are coming in which we will be tested. Praying for u guys.

Yes, it definitely makes sense. That's what I believe. But I don't see how that fits with what you've said earlier.

If the Holy Spirit must help us to declar Jesus' Lordship, then He is the initiator of salvation. He irresistably gives us the ability and the desire to repent and believe. Therefore, salvation is entirely a work of God, and we don't play any part, other than to be His instrument and to carry out what He's causing us to do.

Thanks for replying. Now here is my reply to your reply. :)

You said, "As for what you said about seeking God, perhaps I used the wrong wording here. What I should have said is that we realize that we NEED God. When we realize that need, we are willing to deaden our mortal body and our carnal affections, and accept the Lordship of Christ." There's a problem here–we cannot "deaden our mortal body and our carnal affections" even if we wanted to; since we are slaves to them, we have no choice but to obey them without someone else taking us out of our bondage. And also, if you believe that the Holy Spirit gives us the ability to accept the gift of salvation, how can you say "we realize that we need God"? Is there a way you can resolve this, because I don't understand how you can believe both at the same time.

Other than that confusing point, it seems that we actually do believe the same thing about salvation, if you do stick to your second-to-last post; we both believe that God is the one who gives us the power to accept the gift that He gives us–therefore, He gets all the glory. I'm glad we seem to agree on that point.

There is one major difficulty I find in accepting your largest paragraph. If we are dead to our sins, how do we have the power to be "resurrected" and to live to them again? We WERE slaves to them, but since Christ made us die to them and live to Him, we have no ability to live to them again, even though we do fall to their temptations sometimes. Also, Christ has made it so that we don't even WANT to go back to our old life, even if we did have the ability to.

I wish I could write more, but, again, I need to stop for now. I'll try to answer your comment to Bethany over 1 Kings 13 some other time.

Again, thanks for your courteousness.

Sorry I'm taking so long to respond… I'm really busy right now. I'll try to write out a reply as soon as possible. Just wanted to make sure you know I'm not just dodging your question. :D

@SBG, thank you for your reply. I totally understand if you say it is taking a long time to respond. I am currently on vacation right now, so I may be taking a while myself :)

As for your question about being "resurrected" to our sins, I would like to explain how I see this passage in context. Before salvation, we were totally enslaved to sin. Nothing we did in our own power allowed us to overcome the power of sin. However, when we accepted the Lordship of Jesus Christ, the power of sin was broken; we now had a way to deny the flesh. However, I Peter 5:8 clearly tells us that the devil is still a foe to be reckoned with. I believe that even though we have died to the power of sin, we are still subject to its snares. I also believe that when Christ rebirths our spirits, our spirits resist the desires of our flesh to indulge in sinful practices. However, our flesh resists the spirit's proddings as well. This creates the inner tension that Paul talks about in Romans 7. Anyhow, I believe that our spirits can be overcome if we greive the Spirit of God, as Ephesians 4 talks about. Furthermore, I Thessalonians 5 warns us to "quench not the Spirit.," Based on these, I believe that we can transfer our loyalty from our spirit to our flesh. By loyalty, I mean whoever we allow to be lord of our lives. When we continually resist the proddings of God's Spirit in our lives, I believe that He turns us over to evil and reprobation. Personally, I do not believe that anyone living in reprobation can be saved simultaneously. Anyway, this is how I would interpret this passage. (Of course, any and all insight that we may gain through studying God's Word can only come through the help of His Holy Spirit.)

I trust you can make sense of this explaination, as I find it rather difficult to completely express my beliefs on this subject. Thank you in advance for your patience, and may God bless you and give you the will to seek for truth.

No one can ever lose Salvation, because at the moment of Salvation you receive Eternal Security, which means that even if you become……a Muslim the next day you will still go to heaven when you die. Salvation is Faith alone and Christ Alone, no matter what as long as you believe that the Lord Jesus Christ died on the cross for your sins, you are going to heaven.

There is no sin too great. In 1 John 1:9 it says: If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
That means no matter what sin we do, we can always confess them to the Lord, and He will ALWAYS, ALWAYS forgive us. If he did not (which He would never do) forgive He would be lying, so the Bible would be a lie!

CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION?

By: Norm Rasmussen
Founder, Precious Testimonies

This is a very important question. I trust that by the time you are done reading this, you’ll be confident in what to believe about the matter. Confusion abounds over the topic and the main reason for it is that many people don’t have a crystal clear understanding of what SALVATION really IS. Many have a wrong understanding of how salvation is obtained, and how a Christian can remain secure in it the rest of their lives.

What is salvation, then? Salvation is the forgiveness of our sins against God, others, and ourselves. Salvation is the forgiveness of our past, present, and future sins (we’ve yet to commit).

Why is it important to be forgiven for our sins? Because the Bible clearly tells us that our sins will be judged by God, and the punishment for them will be death – eternal death. Eternal death means that we will suffer in hell for eternity for our sins, if not forgiven by God for them. (See: Give scriptures; coming soon.)

Salvation is attained and secured by what a person believes … not what a person does. The devil works so hard to keep Christians from understanding the crucially important difference of the two and that is where so much confusion comes in.

Salvation is attained and forever secured by what a Christian believes - continues to keep trusting for. What a Christian does after they become saved (inititally obtained salvation, in other words) involves eternal rewards. Eternal rewards is what a Christian lays up in heaven once they have received the free gift of salvation.

Saying it another way: A Christian is saved from their sins by believing – rewarded at the Judgment Seat of Christ by their doing after they were saved.

It bears repeating: It is so important to understand the difference! The Christian’s works of obedience to God that follow their salvation are what the Bible calls “good works” – “not working for one’s salvation to try to earn it or being deserving of it.”

The following Bible scripture passage clearly points this out:

For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. – Ephesians 2:8-9 (NKJV)

Let’s closely examine a few key words in the above scripture passage, so we fully understand what God is communicating to us in it.

“For by grace you have been saved …” This is telling us that God’s love – God’s mercy – God’s compassion is what motivated/motivates God to want to forgive us for our sins and let us go to heaven and be with Him for eternity, not holding our sins against us.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith …” This is telling us that we are saved from our sins by our believing something. Believing WHAT? Don’t miss this! This is where the devil confuses people. Christians are saved from their sins by believing that they need forgiveness from God for their sins, so they can have God’s wrath removed off them both now and especially on the Judgment Day when it matters the most.

At the heart of Christianity is this core statement of truth: God died for sinners. God died on the cross and took the punishment for the sins of all people so they could be forgiven them. Do you believe that? If you do … you have obtained “salvation”. Your believing – your faith in that declaring of truth is what saves you from the penalty of death for your sins, and keeps you saved from them.

“For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not by works, lest anyone should boast.” God wants us understanding that doing spiritual things does not and will not save us from our sins. The only “work/s” that ever saved anyone from their sins is the act of compassion God demonstrated on the cross over 2,000 years ago. God died in our place. God executed His wrath against our sins, on HIMSELF. God took full punishment for our past, present and future sins by taking our punishment for them.

God shed His innocent blood on our behalf on the Cross. We can’t add to this ultimate, supreme sacrifice of love on His part … not can we take away from it. The best we can do is be thankful for it and demonstrate to God we are thankful for it by what we do once we believe it. What God wants us doing once we believe it is commonly known as then becoming an obedient disciple of Jesus Christ – obeying His commands as given in the New Testament Bible, and obeying all other commands given by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament Bible, for they are the very commands of God … being the Father, Jesus the Son (the Word; important to know), and the Holy Spirit.

“Lest anyone should boast.” God ends out the declaring of truth in Ephesians 2:9 by saying that no one – absolutely no one will be able to stand before God on their Judgment Day and try to tell God His sacrifice on the Cross for their sins was not sufficient enough of a sacrifice from God to have the penalty of their sins removed off their lives while they lived on Earth.

No one will be able to convince the Judge of the universe that they were “good enough of a person” to have the penalty for their sins be forgiven by Him … as though their “being good enough” carries more weight – has more value - than God dying in their place which He did for them, when He didn’t have to.

No one will persuade the Judge that His dying on the cross and taking full punishment for all that past, present and future sins needs a little “extra” help on their part. “God … surely all the things I did (or didn’t do) for you to help other people while I lived on earth was good enough to have you remove your sentence of wrath for my sins, wasn’t it? Yes – I believe you died for my sins on the cross, but didn’t that just forgive my past sins up to the time I turned my life over to You and decided to become a Christian? Didn’t you expect me to do “good works” after that the rest of my life to earn forgiveness for any sins I would commit after that?” The Judge will then ask: “Are you saying that My sacrifice for your sins needed a little help from you? Are you saying that you’re so special and so super-spiritual that you were a more acceptable sacrifice than I WAS – that I AM?” Cringe time for such an individual. It’s not going to fly with the Judge.

Salvation is the FREE gift of God. If there is anything beyond believing – trusting - for it on our part … then it couldn’t possibly be “free”.

If we could “earn” salvation (forgiveness for our sins), what was the point of God dying for us on the cross then? There would be no point. The heart and soul – the very foundation of Christianity - would be a complete lie.

Now here is where most Christians get confused by the devil. Officially, does a Christian become saved from the penalty for their sins when they pray “the sinner’s prayer”? It depends. That may have been the starting point of their becoming spiritually born again as addressed in John chapter 3, but technically that wasn’t what saved them. What saved them is their believing that God paid full penalty for their sins by taking their full punishment for them on the Cross, and their asking His forgiveness for those sins by what they prayed in praying the sinner’s prayer. The prayer itself didn’t save them. Their asking forgiveness for them and believing – trusting - they were/are forgiven for them in their prayer is what removed God’s wrath off them immediately so that they will not be judged for them on the Judgment Day and subsequently punished for them for all eternity.

What keeps a Christian saved from the penalty for any future sins they commit after that? The very same as when they first started their relationship with Jesus Christ. What works intially continues to follow the exact same pattern. God doesn't change paths - directions - along the way. Their continuing to believe God paid full penalty on the cross for them, AND confessing those sins to God and once again asking His forgiveness and receiving it for them, as 1 John 1:9 says a Christian is to do.

Satan tries to use the scripture “work out your salvation by fear and trembling” to keep Christians confused about “our works” and “God’s grace”. Christians “working out their salvation” is their determination to walk in daily obedience to God’s commands as given to us in the New Testament. No Christian walks in total obedience to God after they become initially saved from their sins. It’s a process once a person becomes spiritually born again – after they have been saved. A life-long process at that in this life.

In Christian circles, we hear of “backsliders,” or “being in a backslidden spiritual state with Jesus Christ,” or “having fallen away from Christianity.” Satan diligently strives to keep us confused about what is really going on in these matters of being “backslidden”. To a person who initially believes that God paid full penalty for all their past, present and future sins, and then purposely chooses NOT to believe that any more can be assumed to lost what they once had with God. God gives each of us that right to believe it, or disbelieve it. God won’t force us to initially believe it, nor will He force us to KEEP believing it. He gives us freewill to believe what we want to choose to believe.

If a Christian once believed that God paid full penalty for all their past, present and future sins, and then simply decides to live a life of selfish sinfulness with little or no regard for what God thinks about their doing so … that doesn’t technically cause them to lose their salvation. That involves the discipline of God for unrepentant sinners saved by God’s grace. (Repentance doesn’t mean we’re simply sorry for our sins. Repentance to God means we are to diligently work with God for His help and our turning AWAY from committing sins we keep committing. If you’ve been a Christian for any length of time, you know the process it involves).

But if a Christian renounces believing that God paid full penalty for dying for them for their past, present and future sins … or simply refuses to CARE anymore and continue sinning by either refusing to believe they are sinning, or that they’ll take their chances that God won’t hold it against them on the Judgment Day … then of course they would be extremely wise in assuming they have canceled out God’s forgiveness for their sins. Why a person would do such a thing is beyond comprehension, but it happens. We must remember that blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is THE unforgiveable sin. What truly is that sin, and why is it unforgiveable? That sin is refusing to believe initially … or later on afterwards … that forgiveness for one’s sins is ONLY granted by God by our believing what He accomplished for us by dying on the cross for us to have His forgiveness granted.

Can a person start out believing correctly about what God says saves them of their sins … then fall away from believing correctly what God says saves them from their sins … then be given another chance to believe correctly AGAIN what saves them from their sins? God alone is the judge of the matter. Satan is so cunningly deceitful in this arena. Cults, para-cults and wolves in sheep’s clothing – false prophets - are Satan’s disciples to try to deceive innocent sheep of God into believing lies regarding matters of salvation.

Other Christians disagree, and they base their belief on this scripture. God alone can and will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Only God knows who will ultimately end up with Him in eternity and who won’t. Only God decides who He wants spending eternity with Him and who He doesn’t. He should have that right. He’s Creator and Judge.

God does not want us confused about what saves us from the penalty for our sins, nor does He want us to believe He will stop forgiving us for our sins if we continue to engage ourselves doing 1 John 1:9 and Romans 8:13 (1 John 1:9 immediately cancels our debt. Romans 8:13 addresses the matter of sanctification – the matter of repentance – dealing with strongholds of sin in our life AFTER we become disciples of Jesus Christ our Savior and Lord, to the glory of God the Father), but Satan sure wants to keep us confused!

Let’s summarize by once again making certain we always keep this straight in our minds:

We are saved from the penalty of our sins by our initial belief and our on-going believing – on-going trusting - in the complete and finished work of God on the cross. What we do after that is what earns us both favor from God in this life and future rewards in the next life … or causes us to have a loss of God’s favor in this life and a possible loss of future rewards on our Judgment Day.

Salvation – forgiveness for our sins by God – can neither be earned, nor is it granted to the “deserving.” No one deserves salvation. Truth is, we all deserve God’s wrath because of our sin against Him and His subsequent judgment of death in hell for eternity for them because punishment for wrong doing is only right. Justice demands punishment for wrongdoing. Yet God eagerly desires to grant humanity salvation (forgiveness) to those who will simply believe and keep believing that His dying in their place is the biggest deal in all creation, forever and ever.

Can a person lose their salvation? Why in the world would a person WANT to lose it, once they understand how it’s granted? Yet how can a person lose something they never really had to begin with, if they never came to understand what true salvation was in the first place?

Well … now you KNOW, to the glory of God.

Umm… great post, except one thing is REALLY wrong with what you said before it. You said, "No one can ever lose Salvation, because at the moment of Salvation you receive Eternal Security, which means that even if you become……a Muslim the next day you will still go to heaven when you die."
Sorry to be blunt, but this is not right! A person who claims to be a Christian but becomes a Muslim the next day is showing that he was never a Christian in the first place! A good tree will bear good fruit, but a bad tree will bear bad fruit (Matthew 7). A person who continues to live in sin after supposedly being saved is showing that he never changed from a bad tree to a good tree in the first place! The article you posted after you said that shows this. Just wanted to point that out…

P.S. Thomas Youngman, I'll try to get back to you as soon as possible, but I haven't had the time lately to write a post lenthy enough to answer your questions. Sorry! I'll try to write one soon after Nationals. Thank you for your patience. :)

@SBG. I totally understand. I don't want to detract from your study time and other activities! It would actually be good for me to spend less time on the forums, so that I can have more time to study.