Can you lose your salvation?

@Thomas and Matthew - I have something very small for you both to think about (and I have another thought, I just can't seem to get it written out well yet…) which my dad has mentioned before, and I think is an excellent point that he makes…

Christ is called the "Savior" for a reason. How could He be called that, if He loses some of His own? That means, He's not really a Savior, He's a Loser.

How would you answer that?

Hi, all! I have enjoyed reading your responses to the question and would say that I agree with the majority in that salvation cannot be lost. However, I would like to put a spin on the question (albeit pretty hypothetical :) ) and hear your thoughts.

Throughout the past few years, there have been numerous reported incidents of people receiving blows to the head or upper spine and being sent to the hospital in a coma. When these people recovered, they had unfortunately lost all memory of who they were before the incident and had to basically start life and even schooling anew. Although rare, these sad occurrences do happen. My question is, if an individual who was a professing Christian hypothetically suffers such an accident, recovers, and becomes a Muslim (he, in this situation, would never have been told that, before the accident, he was a professing believer), would you claim that such an individual was never a Christian, is still truly a Christian, or something else? Once again, this is purely hypothetical, but I would like to hear your thoughts. :)

That is a very good question–one about which I have often wondered myself.

Romans 8 says that nothing can separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. I think that includes mental diseases like amnesia and Altzheimer's. Additionally, Jesus said that nothing can snatch us out of His and His Father's hands. That also includes amnesia or Altzheimer's. So if a person was truly converted before suffering through one of those diseases, I believe we have to think that they will stay saved, despite their inability to remember their spiritual experiences.

Now, if that person becomes a Muslim… I'm not sure. Would God let one of His own convert to a totally antagonistic religion and live that way until they die? Would He hold that sin against them, even if they did it in a mentally unhealthy state? Again, I'm not sure.

Anyone else wanna weigh in on this? ;)

Well… my (probably not very good) theory is that God does not allow His people to undergo such things that make them totally forget their salvation, even if they forget other things. If they can still remember how to do things like talking and walking, it seems that they would remember something as essential as how they got saved. This is the best answer that I could come up with…

I agree with Nicolas and Christian. But, I haven't thought about it much…

Definitely an interesting question.

Here are my thoughts:

If that person became a Muslim then I would have to say that they were never saved in the first place. They cannot become a Muslim and still go to heaven because God hates evil and so a Muslim cannot go to heaven even if they became a Muslim in that state. I say this because people cannot lose their salvation. So someone cannot be truly saved and then turn Muslim. It shows that they were not really saved in the first place.

Like SBG said though I think that if they were truly a Christian then God would have them know that and they would not turn Muslim because they truly were saved and they cannot lose their salvation.

Those are just my thoughts and I would like to hear what you all think of them.

I absolutely agree with what you said. :)

@His Servant I, I don't believe that Christ loses some of His followers because He does not have sufficient strength or grace to save them. Rather, I believe that there are those who at one time were practicing Christians, but later fell away. In John 17, when Jesus was praying for His disciples, He made this statement in verse 12, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Thy name: those that Thou gavest Me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." According to this text, Jesus did not lose any of those that God gave Him (I am assuming this refers to His disciples) except the "son of perdition," which refers to Judas. Although Judas fell away, He had the same "benefits" as the rest of the disciples. He was given the power to cast out unclean spirits, as well as the power to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. (Matthew 10:1)

Now, to return to the subject, Jesus made the gift of salvation available to everyone,(John 3:16) so He is the Savior. However, He does not "force" us to remain in Christ Jesus. Colossians 2:6-8 says, "As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him: rooted and built up in Him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ."The Colossian believers had already received Christ Jesus the Lord, according to verse 6, which would seem to indicate that they were "saved." Why, then, did Paul warn them not to be "spoiled through philosophy and vain deceit" if they were saved? (If they were not saved at this point, please correct me.) Why would Paul make all this effort to warn someone who was already saved? I believe it was because He did not want them to be deceived and drawn away by false teachers who preached a false gospel.

Thank you for asking this question. It has caused me to think about what I believe, which is good. God bless!

@Thomas: Is it okay if I answer?

To your first question about John 17:12…God doesn't contradict himself. You have to take it one of two ways. 1. God saved the son of perdition….Judas…and then lost him. Or Judas was never saved which means that Jesus could not have lost him. Jesus said that he had lost none. So if Judas was saved and he fell away that means that Jesus did lose him.

For your second question. Even as Christians we have to be warned not to wander after the things of the world and not to be "spoiled through philosophy and vain deceit". We have to be warned because our flesh still wants us to sin and we have to do battle with our flesh. Christians do sin but if they were truly saved they will never stay that way. If they were always caught up in the things of the world it shows that they weren't truly saved because they loved the things of the world more than God and God said that you cannot serve two masters…"Either you will hate the one and love the other. Or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other." Since Christians sin we need to be warned against things.

God's love is so great that he saves us and doesn't let us go. If God did save someone and then we lost our salvation then God's love would not be so great because he lost some of his people. Unbelievers would say, "You say your God is so great and powerful and he saves people. But he also loses people. Why should I want to serve him?" God cannot lose any of his own.

@biblebee {senior} thanks for the reply.

Oh, I just thought of another thing. Jim Elliot said, "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." We would not be able to say that if we could lose our salvation. We cannot keep the worldly things but once someone is truly saved they will never lose their salvation.

Actually, though I do agree with you about not being able to lose your salvation, I don't think that's what Jim Elliott was saying.

I think he was saying, "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep (his own life) to gain what he cannot lose (eternal life in heaven)." You don't give your life to gain salvation; you give your life, and then you go on to heaven, if you are saved. I don't think he was making a point about salvation, but rather what comes after death.

Yes, that is what I think Jim Elliot was saying but if you can lose your salvation then you can't be sure that you won't lose eternal life. Because if you lose your salvation then you will lose eternal life…if that makes sense.

Oh, I just thought of another thing. Jim Elliot said, "He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose." We would not be able to say that if we could lose our salvation. We cannot keep the worldly things but once someone is truly saved they will never lose their salvation.

Agreed and well said!

I agree with everything being said here, but… Jim Elliot wasn't infallible… :P

I agree with everything being said here, but... Jim Elliot wasn't infallible... :P

Agreed and well said as well! :)

@SavedByGrace: No Jim Elliot isn't infallible. But if we could lose our salvation we would not be able to be sure that we wouldn't lose eternal life. So if we could lose our salvation we would not be able to be sure that because we lost our life we WILL not lose eternal life.

Hope that makes sense.

I think the Jim Elliot quote goes along with Luke 9:23-26; a Jesus quote.

23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

24 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it.

25 For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?

26 For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.

I agree :D

I think that this whole discussion can go either way. If someone who we would both agree on and say that their saved and then they go and deny God's existence then I would say that they lost their salvation and some would say that they weren't saved in the first place. Right?

That is right…but of course there is more to it.

Are you saying that you can lose your salvation?

YES.

What I saw in the scripture is that Jesus said that Judas was once saved, but he betrayed Jesus. I don't see how it is possible to just assume Judas must not have been saved when Jesus specifically said that He lost the "son of perdition"(Judas). Also I don't think it's an issue of God's love not being enough to keep people saved. I think it's more of an issue of us not loving God enough to want to be saved. God will never stop loving us, but that doesn't mean we will never stop loving Him. I don't see a purpose in the devil trying to tempt christians if he can't cause them to fall away.

Hey do you have a reference for that? sounds great!

Hey do you have a reference for that? sounds great!

Hey do you have a reference for that? sounds great!

If by reference you mean the scripture where it speaks of Judas as the "son of perdition" that's John 17:12.

thanks. yes that does make a lot of sense.
I'm interested to see what once saved always saved people have to say.

I've been waiting for about 10 months :)

I think something needs to be said here about John 17:12. I am telling everyone right now that this verse DOES NOT SAY, "While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." Sorry, it just doesn't.
In the Textus Receptus, it says this: "hote emen met auton en to kosmo ego eteroun autous en to onomati sou ous dedokas moi efulaxa kai oudeis ex auton apoleto ei me o huios tes apoleias hina e grafe plerothe".
Okay. My point in that was to say, WHEN IT COMES TO THE BIBLE, DON'T PARSE ENGLISH WORDS TO ARGUE A POINT. I'm not saying any of you were doing that, for future reference, just don't do that.

Now let's look at the word translated 'is lost'. Strong's Greek Dictionary defines it thus: "from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively".
Okay, I think you get it. The word doesn't ALWAYS mean lose. It can mean destroy or perish, as well.
So did Jesus 'have' Judas Iscariot and then 'lose' him? I don't think so. None of Jesus' first apostles were totally destroyed, except the son of perdition. (Hey, and think of that - SON of perdition. Sounds like Judas was totally depraved from birth…)

I'm kinda confused with the whole latin words thing. Could you clarify what you were trying to say? As for Judas being totally depraved from birth, according to you guys aren't we all?

@Soul Winner: 10 months? :-?

@InSoloChristo: I agree.

More like 5. At first I was going from the beginning of the topic, but then I realized I havent been waiting since then.

@Soul Winner: InSoloChristo just answered your first question so I will answer your other questions.

You said: "Also, I don't think that it's an issue of God's love not being enough to keep people saved. I think it's more of an issue of us not loving God enough to want to be saved. God will never stop loving us, but that doesn't mean we will never stop loving Him."

God's love is so strong that he keeps us from returning to what we once were. God saves us and changes us completely so that we want to stay with Him always. Our flesh will still wage war but because of God's love we will always stay with Him. If losing salvation is something we make happen to ourselves why would anyone want to lose their salvation. In 1 Corinthians 13:11 it says, "When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways." So once we are saved we won't return to our old ways. We will still struggle with sin but we can't leave God. We will want to always be with God.

You said: "I don't see a purpose in the devil trying to tempt Christians if he can't cause them to fall away."

First off the devil does try to tempt Christians but they can't lose their salvation. If we could lose our salvation then we would always be wondering…are you saved? We would never have assurance. If the devil could make us lose our salvation then you have to say that the devil is stronger than God…because the devil can take us away from God and God can't keep us. Also in the parable of the sower it says, "As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful." Those people were never truly saved…it appeared for a time that they were but the devil tempted them and they went back to what they really were…sinners and lovers of the world. Once someone is saved they always show fruit. But those people in the parable did not show fruit and so that means they were never saved. The devil tempts us so we sin but he cannot make us lose our salvation because God is over us and the devil is not stronger than God and God would not let us go.

So now some questions for you:
In John 6:39 it says: "And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day." How would you reply to that?

Also as my sister said, God is known as a Savior not a loser. If God were to save people and then lose them He would be known as a loser not a savior. We wouldn't trust Him as much because we knew that we could lose our salvation. God is a savior not a loser.

So had you asked all those questions before and no one had answered them?

Actually, these are Greek words. Try to remember that the Bible was not written in English. It was written in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. So the words in our Bibles are not the original words which God breathed. Since most people don't know these three other languages, we need translations. But sometimes, the people who translate the Bible mess up. That's normal. No translation is perfect. And I think that when people translated the Greek word 'apoleto' as 'is lost' in John 17:12, they should have translated it as 'is destroyed', because 'destroyed' is another possible, (actually probable) translation.

And yes. :) According to the Bible, we're all depraved from birth.

"God's love is so strong that he keeps us from returning to what we once were."
2 Peter 2:20 (KJV)
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

So are you saying that once we are a christian we can no longer sin?
before we accepted God's love we were a sinner, but if we sin and were a christian than what are we?
John 6:39 God will NEVER lose us but that doesn't mean we can't lose him.
God is the Savior We are the loser.
Make Sense?

So God holds on to us, but since we don't hold on to Him, He loses us?

What does Romans 8 say? " For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

Oh yeah. Except we ourselves. :P But, wait… wouldn't we fall under "any other created thing"? Maybe Paul just forgot to put us as an exception to that rule. ;)

It doesn't matter how far we gone into sin God's love is always there reaching out to us. I don't believe we should say that the "love of God"
is the same as salvation. God's love is always there and angels or demons or principalities or powers of height or depth, or anything created will separate us from God's love.
God's love is always there reaching out to us, waiting to see if we accept it.
That is how I would interpret this passage.

So God's just sitting there in heaven, rubbing His hands together, worried that we might not choose Him? :P God is the one in control of our salvation, not us.

Excellent points, Christian and Nicolas :)

So your saying we don't have a choice in the matter we are going to be saved whether we like it or not?

"Whether we like it or not" is not a good way to put it. God changes our heart so that we do "like it." We have no choice in the matter when God regenerates us, but part of that regenerating is changing our hearts to choose Him. Praise be to God that He changes us without our permission; if He waited for our permission, no one would ever be saved!

Romans 8:7–
"The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God’s law, nor can it do so."

In His Word, its all clear that God loves us so much not because who we are or what we have done but Only because who He is and what He has done.
He has given us a free will to choose( Deut 30:19). Reminds me of David, how he chose to love God with all His heart to keep His commandments, His testimonies, His statutes. I think its his will to be in God's constant love and guidance.
Ps 119:34-35 "Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart. Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; for therein do I delight."
Before being born again and at times, I have been arrogant on my stand but my dear Lord how gracious and loving HE is! He makes me understand my present stand and shows me the path of life convincing me and directing me to put faith in Him so that I walk not by sight but by faith. Its the Total surrender and the unquestionable obedience to His unconditional love that makes a big difference.
I love these verses:
John 10:28-29 "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand." - What a double security to be in the Father and Son's hands. No one dare can touch us. We are hid in Christ.

If we are saved, its His Grace alone. If we stand, its His Grace alone.
Yes, Without true understanding (1 John 5:20 - And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.) of His love and grace, we stand against God and ourselves.

I absolutely agree that our salvation and security are by His grace alone; but it seems to me that you are saying that we are secured also by our own choosing. How do those two go together?

We choose life and surrender to Jesus and He becomes our life (Gal 2:19-21).

EDITED: I did not mean that we chose life all by ourselves (no flesh can or should glory in His presence 1 Corin 1:29) but I mean to say that in the light of The Word we see what we are before The Holy and Righteous God ie., sinners as the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin, righteousness and judgment.

I wasn't saying that we are also secured by our own choosing. Security of having no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus is for those who believe. That's His promise.

I was replying since you said "without our permission" and you said, 'God changes our heart so that we do "like it."' So what do you mean? I know that God loves that we obey Him out of our free will when The Holy Spirit convinces us. Thats where our choosing matters.

How can we choose life when we are slaves to death? We are bound completely by sin and can do nothing to free ourselves from it. We need God to free us and to make us willing to choose His gift of life. We cannot do this without Him changing our hearts.

Great thoughts SBG and COS.

If we are all dead to sin we can't make ourselves alive. When Lazarus died he did not make himself alive Jesus had to come and make him alive. Dead people can't choose to live in the physical sense and dead people can't choose life in the spiritual sense.