Can you lose your salvation?

I'm sorry, what I typed before I shouldn't have typed, it was not taking the bible literally, and I believe we should, so I'm sorry.

on that note, I will say when you asked, "Caleb, here's a question for you – do you believe that every person will either hear "Enter into the joy of your master" (Matthew 25:23) or "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)?

[I'm assuming you do, but I just want to check before I move on in this debate. I'll give you my next little bit of it, after I receive a reply.] :D"

My answer is now no. before when I answered your question I didn't do any research I just answered from my mind now I will answer from my heart. I hope I didn't offend you.

Look at the verse you asked about, "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41) It does not say "I never knew you," however Matthew seven does say that, so apparently God does differ in his response to different people.

I will say that, in my mind, God will either let people enter heaven or cast them to hell. However the words he says when he does it is what is disputed and it seems that God does differ in his response.

Thanks for your explanation about Caps, I wasn't sure because it seemed EVERYONE (sorry for the caps) :) was doing it, I didn't know if there was any unspoken rule about that or not.

Yes I do like talking in person much better! :)

Concerning this passage,
1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

I believe that it is talking about the Jewish people as we read in the old testemant, and that it is referring to those children of Israel, who did not believe GOD.

Jude 1:5 (KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

They were saved from Egypt but didn't believe, there was no saving faith here.

.</blockquote>

I don't have time to answer all your questions, but I will say that what you said doesn't make sense.

"God saved them all, and then some of them didn't have saving faith?" then how could they be saved in the first place?

Caleb, here are my thoughts to the verses you gave:

John 10:27-29 ~ You addressed the first part of the verse but what about when he says "And no one shall pluck them out of my hand."? Jesus is saying that his people will not be taken away from him.

Ephesians 2:8 ~ As to our faith departing our faith is a gift from God. He gives it to us and so as I have said before if we are showing no works of our faith then we never had faith in the first place.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5 ~ This is talking about the Israelites. They thought they were the children of God but they were not truly saved (or some of them weren't). That is how it is with professing believers. They profess that they are children of God but not all professing believers are actually believers. God saved them all in the physical sense…from Egypt…but not in the spiritual sense…from sin.

Jude 1:5 ~ Or, they were never saved at all. God promised to Abraham that his children would inherit the land of Israel. So he saved the Israelites because of his promise to Abraham.

Hebrews 6:6 ~ I need to study this one more before I can give you an answer.

As for 1 Timothy 4:1-3 I think that MilesChristiSum has a very good answer. They appeared to be of the Christians but they weren't truly Christians. It is what is happening in most churches today. They say they are Christians but when you listen to the teaching, and look at the life styles you can see that they can't be true Christians.

I believe there are two groups of people: The saved and the unsaved.
If someone "Falls away" from the faith, I don't think he was saved in the first place.

If you're interested in hearing a really good explanation of this, I would recommend Ray Comfort's message, "True and False conversions".

Concerning the word, NEVER: It seems to me God is forgetting that they even existed. He doesn't want to think about them and treats them like the sinner they are. Just like God forgets a believer's sins because they are covered by the blood of Jesus Christ, so will He forget that He ever had a relationship with those who fell away.

I think the problem might be that different disciples heard and related different stories in their respective gospels. I know of many stories where just a few quotes are different (God obviously left them in His Holy Word for a reason. Perhaps to show human difference? idk :). So I don't believe God's answer will differ between any human being since we all are equal in a sense. Hope this made sense, bro.

With regards to your supposed refutation of our view on John 10:27-29, I would say that it was quite weak. So, according to you, because Jesus says that they HEAR His voice and FOLLOW Him, as opposed to having HEARD His voice and FOLLOWED Him (sorry for the caps ;P), that means that they can still stray from His hand, even though He says in the next verse that they cannot? I don't see much logic in that argument.

"We get God’s grace by faith but if we neglect faith how shall we then live?" If we neglect faith, we are showing that we never had true saving faith in the first place; pure and simple!

The people in Hebrews 6:4-6 are not believers. If they were, they would not have rejected Christianity. Now, I won't leave it at that, because I know you will come along and say, "Well, look at what it says. These people were enlightened, had tasted of the heavenly gift, partook of the Holy Ghost, and tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come. How could this be describing anyone but believers?" Well, here's my answer to that objection. The enlightenment referred to here is enlightenment with knowledge of the gospel; however, this is obviously not saving knowledge of it. The heavenly gift referred to here is Jesus Christ. But this still does not mean that the people here were saved, for they rejected the gift; true believers cannot do so. They "tasted" the Bread of Life and found it vile to their taste, although it is truly the sweetest thing in existence. Therefore, they left the church. The partaking of the Holy Spirit referred to here is not the Holy Spirit's entering into their hearts and regenerating them, as it could seem. Instead, it refers to those who seem on the exterior to be receiving gifts of the Spirit, such as great wisdom and knowledge of divine things and skill at preaching the gospel. But such people are false professors; they only pretend to have the Spirit, and put on a convincing mask to prove that they do. As for tasting the good word of God, I believe that these people know the Bible well and have a superficial knowledge of the gospel doctrines, but do not truly digest its truth. The knowledge of the powers of the world to come refers to false converts' knowledge (though not saving knowledge) of the things that will happen in the future, such as Christ's reign over the new heavens and earth, the glorifying of the body, and the eradication of sin. All these things can be experienced by unbelievers; granted, very few people can put up a show of Christianity so well for very long, but the author of Hebrews does not say that there were very many of these people. (Sorry for that LONG paragraph [and for the caps ;P].) BTW, a huge thanks to John Gill for his help with that (sure, he's been dead for a long time, but he still deserves some credit ;D).

I was glad to see that your next passages were much easier to answer for. ;D 1 Corinthians 10:1-5 and Jude 1:5 both refer to Israel, obviously; but God never says that He saved from sin every single Israelite. The Israelites were God's chosen people in the Old Testament, of course, but God did not inwardly save every Israelite (though, as this passage states, He saved all the Israelites from Egypt; but this was an outward salvation!).

Now for 1 Timothy 4:1. The people described here are just like the people in Hebrews 6:4-6; they put on an elaborate mask, making it seem like they are saved, but their actions show that they are not. That is why Jesus warned us to watch out for wolves and for bad trees; many will try to slip into the church unnoticed and destroy it from the inside.

So, there is my lengthy answer to your objections. I understand if it takes you some time to respond. :) Hope this helps. :)

It's very hard to discuss with someone, if they do not take the verse literally. I do take that verse to mean, that no TRUE (sorry for the caps :P) believer can fall away from the love of Christ (Romans 8:34-39).

I noticed someone brought up the parable of the seed falling on different types of ground in the Gospels. For any honest, Bible-believing Christian, that settles it–It's GOD who is planting the seed and is 100% in control of where the seed falls. HE is the one that gives ears to hear. It is CHRIST that must be exalted. (Sorry, NO APOLOGIES FOR CAPS). It is God is His sovereign grace who gives the ears to hear to SOME! READ THE PARABLE!

Just a couple questions, for anyone who disagrees with the Bible. No, this ain't Calvinism, this ain't Arminianism, this is the BIBLE. Anyone who disagrees with this, is following another doctrine that is NOT in my Authorized King James Bible. If you belive that you can lose your salvation, what do you believe Salvation is, a work? You can't lose something you didn't earn, something that was giving to you DON'T deserve, something that was imputed, therefore you did nothing to gain it, and can't to anything to lose it. I am thankful that My all-powerful sovereign God who has not lost one hasn't created beings that are higher then him with some free-will to do good? We are all BORN in sin! We can't choose God! He chose US, and we can't thwart HIS will in anyway. As the ox draws the plow, the Bible says so Christ draws us to Himself. I'm from a ranch, and I'll tell you this, the plow can dig in and try to resist, BUT IT AIN'T GONNA DO NO GOOD my friend! So since Salvation is something we didn't earn, something that is in the past-perfect sense in the Greek, (meaning something that is completed 100% in the past BUY SOMEONE else), there is nothing we can do to loose it.

It's a shame man trys to exalt himself above God and actually would beleive the blasphemous doctrine of devils that we can do something to "loose" our salvation. Read the Bible from cover to cover, that's not in there, but countless verses teaching the truth that Christ has lost "no, not one" fill the Bible. It all comes down to how we got our salvation to believe if we can loose it or not. You either believe that God is some helpless bearded guy somewhere who is wringing his hands hoping people will choose him, or the Alpha and Omega, amazing God worthy of our worship who in his mercy while we were yet sinners died for us, and called us unto himself and CHOSE US. Therefore, we did nothing to gain merit with God, WE WERE HELPLESS LOST DEPRAVED SINFUL and UNABLE TO CHOOSE GOD, and we can do NOTHING to seperate ourselves from His Grace!

Thanks for that, C4C. :) It's nice to hear some good, "old-fashioned" BOLDNESS on this issue. :D

Thanks, C4C for the comment :D

@SGB and BibleBee, it's encouraging for me to read your posts and the truths in them. It's in man's sinful nature to put themselves back under a works based salvation, it was happening already with the Galations! I like how Paul says, "Oh ye foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you". We can subsitute Galatians in that sentence witho anybody who believes the same things the Galations were falling into–the we are so good the we choose God and we're so irrestible to Him we make him happy we just made that free-will decision to choose. Oh, but we can also decide to leave God too. Oh but wait. The Bible says God choose us. The Bible says we are under the fall of Adam and are concieved in sin…umm where's that fit in? :D It's such a blaspehemous doctrine. Praise the Lord for ya'll standing up against doctrines of devils!

C4C, I agree with you in what you said.
May I say a few words why I wished to speak on free will in my comments earlier.
Because I heard some testimonies here in India where God called the people who were longing to find the way- The Way which could make them truly free from their sins. In some cases, people though they are very religious in their religion couldn't find a true answer to their spiritual need. So they earnestly seeked to find it. God revealed Himself to them and they were saved.

One of the case is: Long back, there was a 9 year old shepherd boy who was always weeping as he thought of his future and his life after death. When he was 12, he heard the gospel and was saved. ( Matt 5:6) He served the Lord all his days. He went to be with the Lord at the age of 90.
What I want to ask is did he not obey God willingly, or chose to surrender willingly when God spoke to him as he found his true answer?
Where ever i used 'free will', it only meant our willingness to obey ie, our choosing as God willed.
How would you explain this verse
Acts 17:26-27 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

I strictly do not mean that salvation is of our own choosing. For it is God who planned it, initiated it, finished it, and will finish it. All Glory to Jesus Christ alone.(Eph 2:8)

But on man's part how is he responsible when God showed His grace to all who sinned. Rom 5:20 (b) But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound.

PS. am not knowledgeable of -isms. Its only here that I saw for the first time the different names.

Having read all these posts I have a question. If God has bought and elected someone, they can never be lost. If God has chosen someone, they can never be unchosen. Whatever God has made, no man can undo, no matter what.

God never lies, he always tells the truth and is never wrong. He is not ambigous, not sneaky and does not hide behind alterior motives.

If God has saved someone, then that someone is saved. But that can only be proved once they stand before God. We do have the Holy Spirit as a deposit gaurenteeing our inheritance. So Yip, we cannot tell if others are truly saved and our only way of making sure of our own salvation is our walk with Lord. For our walk must match the talk.

One Question I have, If God chose someone, can they unchoose themselves? Because if so, well done to Israel as the ONLY nation and people to be able to unchoose themselves. We normal people cannot be unchosen once chosen but those crafty Israelites, they are a smart bunch. I wonder If God knew that when he Chose them as his people. Amazing, a nation that thwarted God.

Good point–man is given "free-will", but since we are under the fall of Adam and are BORN in SIN, all we can do is choose to SIN. In our "free-will", (if that's what you want to call it), all we can do is SIN. Christ must draw us to himself, or we will die LOST. We ALL deserve HELL and cannot do any good work to save ourselves from that, and we are UNABLE to accept Christ in our DEPRAVED free will. Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and he only is to be glorified.

You brought up Acts 17:26-27. It's a great verse on this subject, thanks! It shows very clearly the truths that God has before appointed those that will seek Him!

Thank you C4C.
Yes, Christ is the Author and Finisher of our faith, and He is to be glorified alone.

Rom 8: 29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Yes He foreknew who will seek HIM.

Good post! It's awesome, not only did he forKNOW us, but he forORDAINED that we should be His own! And HE alone calls, justifies, and glorifies!

In answer to the question in the title of the forum: NO!

Romans 8:38-39 (KJV)

 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Agreed!!

Just wondering, doesn't God love everyone even sinners? Isn't this verse just reffering to God's love overcoming all things?

So unbelievers receive "the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord"? That sure sounds like the love of God that comes at salvation to me–the love of God for His people.

Hebrews 6:4-6 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

What does everyone think about these verses? I don't believe you can lose your salvation, but these verses are somewhat confusing.

If you look back a few pages, I thoroughly explained this passage. I think you'll find it helpful. :)

EDIT–Actually, my explanation of this passage is on this page. :) It's the biggest one from me here, so it'll be easy to find. :)

sorry, I should have checked to see if someone had already posted about those verses:) your post makes a lot of sense. thanks

SBG did do a great job on that passage, I just read it again. I met an old Texan who summed up this topic well. He said: "We ain't done nothin' to earn our way in, and there ain't nothin' we can do to earn our way out". Well said! :)

ha! that's a great way to put it!! :) guess that just shows what cowboys are made of, ya? gotta love Texas!:)

Actually, I wouldn't have been able to do it all without John Gill's Bible commentary. :) All the credit for my seemingly-wonderful exposition on that passage goes to him. :)

"For Christians to lose their salvation, is for Christ to lose His power." ~ Our pastor

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." Hebrews 4:4-6~

Umm… could you please state the purpose of putting that there? Since you didn't put your own comments with that verse, I'm not sure if you're trying to prove that Christians can lose their salvation, or…
Just a little explanation would be appreciated. :)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
What he said. :P

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ What he said. :P

wisper Maybe it is a verse in support of the viewpoint that a christian can lose their salvation. And if they shall lose their salvation, that they could not be restored. wisper

But I believe taking that verse and others, like -John 10: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. - It could be understood better that one reason christians can't fall away is because Jesus Christ would have to be sacrificed again, and because God will not have him do that, and because it is against God's nature of love, compassion, and being willing to give another chance, falling away isn't an option.

Sounds like a few of you would benefit from reading this entire thread.

Well I read through this entire thread and was involved in some of the discussions so just wondering, what is your take on this subject? I know you believe that we can't lose our salvation, but I would like a further explanation of what you believe if that makes sense. thanks :D

Salvation = born again. Did you choose to be born? No. If you don't like that, you can sue the doctor that delivered you, but that won't get you anywhere . Same with ur salvation. its not of YOU but of GOD.

Here's what it boils down to, is god sovereign? Or is man better than the creator?

Excuse my poor puncuation…smartphones arrnt very well suited for memverse;)

totally agree!! john 10:28 .
If we kept losing our salvation……then what good would it be?

totally agree!! john 10:28 . If we kept losing our salvation......then what good would it be?

Agreed :D

I must give credit where credit is due…Its a John McAurthur quote.!
(not that I agree with everything he says:))

I must give credit where credit is due...Its a John McAurthur quote.! (not that I agree with everything he says:))

Oh, okay…I don't agree with everything he says either.

Like what? The only thing I can think of that I don't agree with him about is his view on the "end times". Other than that, I pretty much believe everything he does. :)

He is a modified disspinsationlist.

Oh! Didn't know that. At least he's not a full-fledged one… that could lead to some problems.

Yep!

I was talking about that he is a Calvinist. I dissagree wholeheartedly with Calvinism.
I AM a dispensationalist though. Is modified dispensationalism the same as progressive dispensationalism?I'm not familiar with "modified"
are you all believers in covenant theology?

So you are Arminian?

I wouldn't go THAT far…..but the bible says that he foreknew whom he predestined. So….God predestined us only because he knew what choice we would make ahead of time. Calvinists never say that. They just say that God condemned some people to hell and some to heaven ( in nicer words of course) We have freewill, and the choice is ours. God just knows what choice we will make (because he knows all things)
Also I don't think you can lose your salvation ( I believe Armenians believe that) unless YOU renounce it…which shows that you probably weren't saved in the first place….because if you were saved you would understand that Sin will put you in hell. What about you?

Hmm… so what you're saying is, God foreknew everybody, and those whom He foreknew were going to choose Him, He saves, and those whom He foreknew were not going to choose Him, He doesn't save?

If so, you are actually saying the opposite of what the verse says. It says that EVERYONE whom God foreknew, He predestined. And the verse also says that He called, justified, and glorified every single one of those whom He foreknew! So really, that verse does not support your view; rather, it denies it.