Can you lose your salvation?

Thank you. We can discuss losing your salvation on here and if God makes us sin on the other one. Since I would still like to continue this discussion if you would like to.

I will reply back when I have time right now I have to do school. :)

Alright. I am looking forward to your reply.

@Matthew: I was looking back over the comments and saw that I never answered you.

So God saves everyone and sends some of HIS PEOPLE to hell????? That doesn't make any sense. What do you mean by "Do not receive the benefits". Why would God save people who refuse to obey him? God says he will save his people…does that mean ALL PEOPLE HE HAS CREATED (sorry for the caps :D) or does that mean ALL HIS PEOPLE THAT HE HAS PREDESTINED?

Please explain what you mean by this: "Anyway, on the other hand, if man does not have a choice in his salvation, Jesus loses some of His people? Purposely? To me that's even more appalling than Jesus losing His people because they refused to be saved."

I'm working on getting a reply together. Might take a couple of days though. You posed some good questions.

Hey SBG how would you like it if God decided he wanted your children to glorify Him by living a life of sin, never being given a chance to be saved, and ending up in Hell. Would you praise the Lord from your seat in Heaven and be thankful that He was glorified? I don't think a loving God would create human beings solely to be punished in Hell ETERNALLY just to "glorify" Him. God has to at least give them a chance and He does. The thing is, we as sinful humans sometimes don't want to accept this gift. Thus, some of our fellow brethren go to hell not because they were never given a chance, but because they were given a choice that they rejected. Do you realize the gravity of what you are saying? Hell is eternal. Eternal is a very long time. Atheists ask the question: Why would God send people to Hell if He's a loving God? It is because they denied His gift, but you say they were never given the chance to get the gift in the first place. Its like having a family full of bad children. The children had all been naughty and it was Christmas time. The parents decide to give half the children presents and beat the other half. Does that seem fair to you? What do you think the children who were beat would think? None of us are deserving of salvation sure I'll give you that one, but why do certain people get chosen to be with God and others don't? Also, all men were created equal. How could we be equal if some of us had the unfair advantage of being the Elect. You could say that we were all created equal because we all glorify God, but what about the fact that some of us are going to Heaven and the rest are going to eternal damnation. Youwant to know whats so terrible about not having a free will? The fact that tens of billions of people have had to die and be tortured forever to fulfill God's "sovereign will"

Everybody deserves hell because of the wrong they have done. But God in his great mercy decides to save some people. Certain people are chosen because God is God and he decided to choose those people and not to choose others. You can't think about it from man's perspective. "The foolishness of God is wiser than man and the weakness of God is stronger than man." The most foolish thing of God (which there is nothing foolish that God does) is wiser than the wisest thing that man could do. Ever since Adam sinned every person was headed to hell for eternity…but God chose to save some. Does that make sense? I really want to stress this point. Everyone…EVERYONE…deserves hell and eternal damnation but some, by God's great mercy, will be saved. Either way all will glorify God.

PLEASE EXPLAIN EPHESIANS 1:4-11: "4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace, 8 which he lavished upon us, in all wisdom and insight 9 making known[c] to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ 10 as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"

Charles Spurgeon said something along the lines of this:
"I am not surprised that many go to hell, I am surprised that God saves some."

But this is off the topic of Can you lose your salvation…perhaps we could move this discussion to a different topic and let the topic of Can you lose your salvation on here.

God HAS TO do something? Sorry to be (maybe unnecessarily) blunt, but that is quite arrogant. God has no obligation to give us any chances at all. If He predestined my children to glorify His attributes (in this case, His justice and His righteous wrath), even if that means that they will burn forever in hell, I cannot fight against God's sovereign will (and as I will be praising God forever in heaven, even something as seemingly terrible as that will be something for which to give God praise–maintaining His justice, that is). And as for your illustration of the children at Christmas time, I would say that it is entirely the decision of the parents. We have no rights at all–it does not matter whether someone chooses to give us a gracious gift (and leave others out of it) or whether he chooses us to be one of those who is left out of it.

What really surprised me about your comment was when you said that being the elect gives us an unfair advantage over those who are not the elect. Election is ENTIRELY GRACE–God's choosing of some to be saved and others not to be is not unfair; it is gracious! All of us deserve damnation, as you said; so we should not be griping about God leaving some to die, but praising Him for choosing some to live! Why should the clay complain to the potter as to why he shaped him the way he did? We have no choice in our salvation; it is ENTIRELY GRACE.

P.S. Sorry for again posting a comment that does not exactly fit with this topic… I'll try to stop. :D

Okay, okay, I have to post this short off-topic comment. Biblebeefanatic asked if people sin of their own free will. I would say that the answer is no; people sin because they are bound to their sinful nature. We've clarified that before… :P

Quick note: I believe "If saved always saved". If you are truly saved you are always saved. And because you have been given a new heart you won't go and live in sin. You will show the fruits of a believer and will live as one of God's children.

A hypothetical Question for you.

If someone is for sure saved, there is absolutely no doubt about it. Then they go and become a "Richard Dawkins" and began living in sin again and stay living in sin till the day they die. Will they go to heaven?

Howdy ya'll, I haven't posted in a while so I hope you don't mind me replyin' to this question! :)

First of all, it's important to answer these questions and discuss these topics with our answers and source of authority coming from the BIBLE. Yes, not Luther, Calvin, but Jesus himself. It's a shame so many of you are discussing your opinions, not sticking to God's Word that He's magnified above his name. Here's what God's Word in the Authorized King James Bible has to say about this topic: Matthew 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."'

We also read the countless verses of a Soveriegn God who has lost "no, not one". That settles it for any Bible Believer!

No, my God is not some some guy that looks like Eddy Rabbit or Kenny Lodgins who looks like he just got out of a hair salon and has a human nature, who's in heaven monopolized by the actions of humans of whom He's created ever molecule in their body!

I would say then that that person was never saved to begin with.A true Christian will be growing and not living in sin for half their life.

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. ~ 1 John 3:9

@Cowboy4Christ: Thanks for joining the discussion :D

WHY does everyone deserve to go to Hell? According to you aren't we all sinful by nature? Don't we have no choice but to sin because we don't want God? So because of the Fall of Man (Adam and Eve eating the apple from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, you know the story:) all men have to go to Hell. What about after Jesus died? Didn't he die so that now people could come to him, so that they too could be saved, not just the Jews? What would be the purpose of Jesus's death if people still had to live their life only to go to Hell because God chose them to "glorify" him in this way.

As for the Ephesians 1:4-11 text, I think this speaks of God's omniscience. He knows ultimately who will be joining Him in Heaven, and who will reject Him and go to Hell. I need more time to look through it to give you a more concrete answer.

Also I tend not to pay much attention to spirtual "fathers" and all those preachers from back in the day. I just read my Bible.

Another question, if you are not a Calvinist, will you go to Hell? Do we have to belive in eternal security, predestination and such?

So He creates people just so they can go to Hell while saving a select few and we are supposed to call this grace? I guess we should call it Hitler's grace that the Nazis didn't kill all the Jews! I guess I never really said anything about the glorification of God's wrath and justice. I don't think He doesn't predestine people just to fulfill this wrath so to speak, but rather He knows who will reject Him and these people (sinners who rejected God by their own will, not because God didn't choose them) will go to Hell and suffer the consequences of their past actions. According to you we should all be going to Hell, right? But since God is sooo merciful, He saves a select few. This is twisted because according to you, we are all sinners and we can't come to God on our own, yet some of us are chosen to be God's elect, while the others are left the same way they were. What you are saying is that they are being punished for being sinners, something they were born doing! Something none of us can get out of unless God comes and helps us. I cant find any logical sense in predestination. Help!

Another question, if you are not a Calvinist, will you go to Hell? Do we have to belive in eternal security, predestination and such?

No, I do not believe that if you are not a Calvinist you will go to hell. I am very sorry if that is what I portrayed in my comments. I believe in predestination, and IF saved, always saved, and such. Eternal security is sometimes used in the wrong sense…like you can be saved and do horrible sins and still go to heaven.

To your first post: "WHY does everyone deserve to go to Hell? According to you aren't we all sinful by nature? Don't we have no choice but to sin because we don't want God? So because of the Fall of Man (Adam and Eve eating the apple from the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil, you know the story:) all men have to go to Hell. What about after Jesus died? Didn't he die so that now people could come to him, so that they too could be saved, not just the Jews? What would be the purpose of Jesus's death if people still had to live their life only to go to Hell because God chose them to "glorify" him in this way."

I believe that because of Adam's sin we are all sinful by nature. We all deserve to go to hell because we disobeyed God. We have no choice but to sin until God saves us. Jesus died for his elect….not for everyone. God didn't have to save anyone. But he chose to save some people. That way they would glorify him by showing his might in saving people. And he also created some for destruction to show his might in wrath, and such things.

About Ephesians 1:4-11 - PLEASE read it and consider it without any preconceived ideas. PLEASE don't read it from your standpoint or from my standpoint. Just read it and see what it really says. I will look forward to hearing what you think it means once you have read it more :D

To your last post:

First off…do NOT compare Hitler to God. Hitler was a sinful man while God is the righteous God. Hitler killed people ruthlessly. He was not at all righteous and he did it for the wrong reasons. He tortured people because he thought they were the cause of all the problems. God justly punishes those who disobey Him. So PLEASE DO NOT COMPARE HITLER TO GOD. As to God choosing to save us or us choosing to be saved (which isn't possible because we are died) it says in 1 John 4:10, "We love because he first loved us." So God chose us from the beginning and and then he extended his love toward us and changed our hearts. Please explain 1 John 4:10 from your standpoint. God is a just God. He didn't have to save anyone. You are looking at it from the standpoint of man. God is in control and can do whatever he likes. He chose to save some and not others…and since He is God He can do whatever he wants. Also, I just wanted to clarify…Mercy means when someone has done something wrong and you show them mercy you lighten the punishment. You still punish them just not so heavily. While grace is when someone does something wrong and you show them grace which means you completely take away their punishment. You are saying that God knows who will be saved but that they get to chose to be saved. You are…in a way…saying that they are predestined….because God knows who will be saved and because he is in control thus he has chosen who will be saved. As to us choosing to be saved it is as if someone died and then they decided that they didn't want to die but instead to live…so they just get up and start living again…when they were dead. That makes no sense but that is what you are saying. We are DEAD in sin when we are born and thus we can't choose life.

I hope that I didn't come across harsh.

Hey, C4C, long time no see! :) I'm glad you're joining the discussion. Though I have to say, even though you agree with us on this, that your tone is a bit harsher than it needs to be. We should talk about these things with each other graciously, since we all profess to be believers. Thanks for understanding. :) Again, glad to see you back. :)

I'll reply to you, SoulWinner, comment by comment. :) Your first comment, basically, asked why we all deserve to go to hell if we really have no choice in the matter. I would, again, attribute this to God's sovereign will. He decided from eternity past that Adam, representing the whole human race, would sin and thus would make his entire posterity sinful. Just as Christ represented His elect, Adam represented his posterity. I don't quite understand the last two of your questions; it would be helpful if you could explain a little more clearly what you mean. :)

In your second comment, you asked if those who are not Calvinists will go to hell. I personally do not believe so. It depends on the person, of course; some who call themselves Calvinists will go to hell, and some who call themselves Arminians (or similar things) will go to heaven. I do believe that people such as you are mistaken, but we all think that of those who don't agree with us. :P I just think that this is what the Bible says. By the way, I wouldn't label myself as a Calvinist; as John MacArthur (and my dad for that matter :D) would say, "I'm a Biblicist." :)

In your third comment, you asked how we can call it grace when God creates some people to go to hell. Well, when I referred to God's grace, I was referring not to those He sends to hell, but to those He brings to heaven. You also compared our viewpoint of God with Hitler, saying that, according to us, Hitler would be gracious not to kill all the Jews. Well, first off, Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews, but wasn't able to. :P Second, God's salvation is not a mere sparing from death; it is bringing us into eternal fellowship with Him. Third, the Jews did not deserve (from Hitler, that is) to be punished and murdered like they did. We completely deserve to be punished by God, and we ought to praise Him for His grace when He saves us from that punishment. So, in short, your analogy there was quite weak.

Continuing with your third comment, you asked how it is righteous of God to create the human race in bondage to sin, and then to leave some of them that way. Well, I would answer that God has every right to do with His creation whatever He pleases. But don't get me wrong; I don't believe God is a ruthless tyrant. He made us bound to sin, destined for hell, so that He could glorify Himself by saving us (and before you would consider this selfish, reconsider: seeking the glory of God is the most righteous goal in the universe!). So God's plan has always been to allow us to fall into sin, and then come and rescue some of us. This might sound incredibly cruel, but it is not. God created us solely for the purpose of glorifying Himself (remember, the most righteous goal!); so whether He chooses to do so by sending us to hell or by bringing us to heaven is not our problem. The reason why He chooses whom He chooses and rejects whom He rejects will be a mystery until heaven, but we can know that God is just in all that He does.

I hope that this doesn't confuse you more, but helps you to better see our position. Sorry for the length of this comment. :)

"He knows who will reject Him and these people (sinners who rejected God by their own will, not because God didn't choose them) will go to Hell and suffer the consequences of their past actions"

End quote.

I agree that this makes sense.

Rom 8: 29 a } For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate ….
I would think that this can work in reverse so to speak.
If God knew who would choose him he also knows who would reject him. God can see the future but it doesn't nullify free choice just because God knows the outcome in advance, we still make our own choice to serve him or the devil, even as we do daily.

And there is this….2 pet 3:12 But these, like irrational animals, creatures of instinct,
"born to be caught and destroyed", ESV

But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed. KJV

(emphasis mine ) Are some people born just to do evil and mayhem? Created to be destroyed?

The only person I know in name not having a choice, was Judas. and Even Jesus said it would have been better if he had not been born. Of course Jesus said he was a devil and the son of perdition and the Devil himself possessed him at times and communicated directly with Jesus through him.

Rev 20:12 says: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Remember, this is after the Judgment seat of Christ, a thousand years after to be exact. If everyone was going to just be cast into hell fire, why have a judgment at all? These guys are going to be judged according to their works. How do I know this? because it says so : )

As it says in Romans 8:29, God predestined some people to serve him and others to glorify him in destruction. But as I have said before we can't choose to live when we are dead. God has to love us first…as it says in 1 John 4:10, "We love because he first loved us." It says it so plainly here…that we didn't love God first, we didn't choose God first, He chose us and loved us first and we love Him because He loved us first and changed our hearts.

Yes, some people were created to be do evil and be destroyed. God is God and he can do whatever he wants. He decided to make some people to serve Him and others to be destroyed. If you say that everyone has a choice to be saved why would God not give Judas a choice as well? It seems very unjust of God to give everybody a choice to be saved except for Judas.

What do you mean by saying, "Remember, this is after the judgment seat of Christ, a thousand years after to be exact." Are you saying that Christ has already come and judged the world?

As Nicolas put it…"By the way, I wouldn't label myself as a Calvinist"…it's the same for us. We don't go around saying "we're Calvinists!" We don't follow Calvin, we follow Christ. Though, we do believe in the 5 points of Calvinism :) Just so y'all know that about Carissa (biblebee) and I.

Kinda like saying you follow all the points of Buddhism, but your just an atheist, but I get your point. Sort of.

I keep hearing in this discussion the concept of sinners glorifying God. I have a question: How can sinners burning in hell eternally glorify God? Are the wicked down there saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty, Who was, and is, and is to come"?? Why, they are doing just the opposite; they are CURSING God!! There will be weeping and knashing of teeth! It would actually be easier for me to understand why you believe in predestination if you also believed in conditional immortality. (I know, I am getting off topic, but this is an important point.) I can see how God annihilating the sinners who blasphemed His name would glorify Him, but torturing them eternally?!?

@Karthmin: Is there any difference between Jesus taking the punishment of the sins of the whole world, and Jesus taking the punishment of the sins of the elect only? Every person's sin is infinite, right? So, by the rules of mathematics, infinity times anything is still infinity. (Follow me here.) So no matter exactly how many people were saved through Jesus Christ, His sacrifice is complete. The people then who reject him are punished for their own sins; they COULD have been saved, but they rejected Jesus and so, logically, His sacrifice does not include them.

@Carissa: You asked us to think about Ephesians 1. I'm afraid I couldn't really do what you asked (to not look at it from any viewpoint) - this isn't my first time reading the Bible. :) But anyway, this is how I view that Scripture. Paul, for lack of a better pronoun, uses "us" and "we" throughout the passage, giving the impression he is referring to each of us. I don't think that is quite what he is saying. I believe "us" in this passage can refer to the church as a unit and not specifically to the believers as parts. So, Christ predestinated the church to be His bride. Of course, you and I and all Christians make up that church. But Paul is not referring to "us" as in you & me & him & her, etc. - he is referring to Christ's bride. When viewed this way, this passage does not imply that God predestinated each of us individually to be saved. That is our choice to make.

@Matthew: This is God's Word. God gave the Words to Paul to write down. Do you really think that God didn't know what words to use? As to your first question whether sinners glorify God in hell…I am not saying that they will be saying, "Holy, Holy, Holy, is the Lord God Almighty. Who was, and is, and is to come." Instead they will glorify God by the demonstration that God is righteous and just. When he says that he will punish the wicked and then he does punish them it glorifies Him by showing that he doesn't go back on His Word. When he says something it will be done.

@SoulWinner: I would really like if you would answer my questions in my post to you a few comments up. Thanks :D

"Kinda like saying you follow all the points of Buddhism, but your just an atheist, but I get your point. Sort of."

Um, no, that's not it at all. Buddhism and atheism are two entirely different religions. The five points of Calvinism are a system of understanding Christianity. We are saying that, though we follow the five points of Calvinism, we do not label ourselves as Calvinists, because that would make it look like we are following the theology of a man; when, in reality, we believe we are following the theology of God.

Okay, so maybe the words "for lack of a better pronoun" weren't the best choice on my part. But anyway, what if this is what God meant in the first place? And maybe this is the translator's problem and not God's. I mean, there isn't really a pronoun in English to refer to "us" (Christians) and "it" (the church) at the same time. Possibly (IDK this for sure) there was a better pronoun in the original Greek.
You said "Instead they will glorify God by the demonstration that God is righteous and just." I'm not arguing with that, I already know that. What I'm saying is how can sinners burning in hell for eternity, maligning and cursing God for eternity, glorify Him? They are blaspheming God! If He got rid of the blasphemers, it would be to His glory. But allowing them to continue to blaspheme Him for eternity is not for His glory.

Can you give me a verse to prove your last two sentences, please? :)

I'm not sure that once the unrepentant sinner reaches hell that they will be blaspheming God. If you have biblical refrence to this though I'll go with what God's word says.

I'd say, that sinners don't "blaspheme Him for eternity". That I know of (please correct me if I'm wrong though) there aren't very many verses in the Bible that speak of what sinners will be like/speaking in hell.

Luke 16:24 says "And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame." This rich man is not blaspheming God! He's asking for mercy!

Philippians 2:9-11 says "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Wouldn't you think that for eternity (saying, for a minute that you hold to our position of eternal punishment) that they would be thinking on what they did and all? If you say that they are blaspheming God for eternity, don't you think that they weren't very wholehearted in their confessing of Christ's name?

Lastly, Luke 13:28 says " There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out." This verse shows no reference to sinners cursing God…it tells of the pain they will be in and the misery of seeing God's children but not being with them.

Thoughts, please? :) Oh, and in case you didn't notice, I used KJV for you, not ESV :D

Thanks!
–His Servant

Actually, I think Buddhism falls under Atheism since they both reject God and speak of looking to yourself for answers. The five points of Calvinism are a way of understanding YOUR Christianity, not mine. I follow the Bible the way I see it, you follow the Bible using points that a man created in order to help you better understand what you were reading. So, you are in fact Christians who follow all 5 points of Calvinism, yet you are not Calvinists.

I hope Matthew doesn't mind if I put my little input in :)
To Luke 16:24: Sure he's asking for mercy but what will he do when he receives none?
Philippians 2:9-11: Even the demons believe in Jesus and tremble. Just because they confessed and they finally realized after their years on earth denying Christ that Jesus is in fact the Lord, doesn't mean they will be happy about it.
Luke 13:28: I'm not really sure what the verse is saying. I went back to the context and it doesn't seem to fit with the others. I guess I'll let Matthew answer that one :)

@SoulWinner - You argue all the verses we give, but do you have any to prove your point?

First off, you did not lead me in any way to believe that anyone who was not a Calvinist would go to hell. I was just curious :)
To the response to my first post: I know that because of the Fall we are all sinners and will eventually sin, and that no one can lead a blameless life except Jesus the son of God who died and was ressurected for our sins. I think Jesus died so that all men could be saved if they came to Him. You believe no one can come to Jesus. I believe that any man can be saved if he realizes he is a sinner and needs Jesus. All men are unique and different so different things get into that hard noggin of ours. Whether it be a preacher, a witness he met at the bus station, or by reading a Bible in a hotel room, God presents a way for all of us to be saved. I don't think God created people solely so they could go to Hell, but rather He created all equally and brought them the message of the gospel in one way or another. They could choose to accept this or deny this. Those who denied fulfilled this need for God's wrath to be glorified.God knew that people would reject Him, so He didn't need to create people solely to go to Hell.

I read the Ephesians 1:4-11 text once more without taking a particular stand, so know I will tell you what I think it means. I still only see Paul talking of Jesus and God the Father knowing who would be saved and who would not be saved. Also Paul could be talking about the early church and how Jesus knew who would be the "founding fathers" so to speak. Of course that's just a theory.

I was not comparing Hitler to God I was merely trying to show you(in a extremely foolish way I must admit) the way your reasoning was appearing to me. Sorry for any confusion. Wow are you using 1 John 4:10 to prove predestination? It says we love because he first loved us. God loves the whole world! Let me pull out John 3:16: For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten so that WHOEVER believes in him shall not perish but have everlasting life. Are you saying that God only loves the Elect? Does that mean God hates all the other people in the world? Which also means God hates babies because they are born in sin! I don't see any justice in a God that condemns people to death for doing what they were born doing, something they can't get out of on their own. If they can't get out of it on their own and they have no other option but to sin, then how can he blame them since he made them doing that?

@SoulWinner: Bethany is waiting for an answer to her question when you have time :D

I have yet to find verses that prove either. I just didn't think your verses proved that people didn't blaspheme god for eternity. I personally think they will hate God because He has left them in this place since they rejected His Word.

I don't have time at the moment to answer your other comments, SoulWinner, but I have to point out one thing. I do not use the five points of Calvinism to help me interpret the Bible; I read the Bible, see the five points of Calvinism in it, and use the principles in the points to help argue my case for what I read in Scripture. We aren't different because I believe in the five points and you believe in the Bible; we're different because we interpret the Bible differently!

I do not use the five points of Calvinism to help me interpret the Bible; I read the Bible, see the five points of Calvinism in it, and use the principles in the points to help argue my case for what I read in Scripture. We aren't different because I believe in the five points and you believe in the Bible; we're different because we interpret the Bible differently!

Agreed :D

I agree, we all have presuppotions (sp?). We read something in the bible and then we try to fit everything else into that interpretation of the bible.

Carissa, I am working on answering you question, But I have question, Is there ANY possibility that you would change your way of thinking on this topic??? Or are you just trying to understand my side of things better?

Actually, I think it's more like we're trying to "convert" you to our side, not trying to "convert" to your side… :P I, at least, understand your side pretty well–and am trying to get you to believe differently. ;D

@Caleb, No, I am not trying to change my way of thinking. And I think I understand your side but discussing like this has made me study the scriptures more to find verses that support my belief.

@All: Can you please show me verses that prove that one can lose their salvation…besides the verses that have already been brought up :D Thanks.

Okay, Caleb, here's a question for you – do you believe that every person will either hear "Enter into the joy of your master" (Matthew 25:23) or "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels." (Matthew 25:41)?

[I'm assuming you do, but I just want to check before I move on in this debate. I'll give you my next little bit of it, after I receive a reply.] :D

I think I know where your going with this, but I'll play along.
YES!

For now I will just paste in some scriptures, and do a little talk about them.

John 10:27-29 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Look at the words: hear, follow. They are in the PRESENT tense. It does not say My sheep heard my voice, and I know them, and they followed me:. Those who are in the present state of believing, hearing, and following. I believe in the eternal security of the believer, but they have to be a believer.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
The bible also says, “The just shall live by Faith.” We get God’s grace by faith but if we neglect faith how shall we then live?

Hebrews 6:4-6 (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

The people that are being talked about in these verses ARE believers. If you question this I will prove it to you if you ask.

Now I will paste in the last verse in several different translations.

Hebrews 6:6 (ASV)
6 and then fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:6 (BBE)
6 And then let themselves be turned away, it is not possible for their hearts to be made new a second time; because they themselves put the Son of God on the cross again, openly shaming him.

Hebrews 6:6 (MontgomeryNT)
6 and then fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance. For they repeatedly crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and expose him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:6 (Darby)
6 and have fallen away, crucifying for themselves [as they do] the Son of God, and making a show of [him].

Hebrews 6:6 (GW)
6 Yet, they have deserted {Christ}. They are crucifying the Son of God again and publicly disgracing him. Therefore, they cannot be led a second time to God.

Hebrews 6:6 (NLT)
6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

Hebrews 6:6 (YLT)
6 and having fallen away, again to renew them to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.

Sorry for so many, but look at the first few words, it makes it very clear that it is possible to fall away. It doesn't seem to be a rhetorical question, the reason the writer of Hebrews doesn't want them to fall away, is because it is possible.

Now we'll look at an example.

1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
Jude 1:5 (KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.
God saved all of Israel, but then he destroyed some of them, why? Because the believed not. Some of them must have lost their “salvation”, and God destroyed them.

Oh, also 1 Timothy 4:1-3 (KJV)
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

How can you depart from something if you were not once a part of it?

Sorry for being so lengthy but you asked.

I hope this answers your questions.

I don't think we should drag out this conversation for 20 more pages.

I got this from a sermon by Paul Shirk

Hmm…so we have a mind reader on here? Funny, Caleb :)

Anyways, to get right to the point, you agreed that all sinners will be told to depart to eternal fire. Matthew 7:23 says "And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (emphasis mine…sorry for the caps :P)

The Greek word for "never" is oudepote which means "not even at any time, that is, never at all: - neither at any time, never, nothing at any time." Clearly, you can't deny that it means "never, ever, ever" :D

So, take for example (saying that I hold to your position) a person comes to knows the Lord, falls away (i.e. loses their salvation), and dies. On the judgement day, Christ will tell that person "Depart from me, I NEVER knew you". That contradicts sooo badly. Because, using your reasoning, that person did at some point know Christ and have a real relationship with Him. Which means, that Christ lied, telling that person to depart because He never knew the man.

What do you say to that? I would appreciate your thoughts on this topic. :D

–His Servant

Ha, Ha, I was wrong, I guess I can't read your mind. :) Before I get into my answer I have a question. Why do people always SAY (sorry for the caps)? Was that in some movie or something? or is it just a MEMVERSE (sorry for the caps) thing? :)

I would say that Jesus is "disowning" them, kinda like if you were my friend, and then you went and "worked iniquity" against me. I would say "I never knew you."

An interesting thought though, why did he say this to them? Because they were workers of iniquity, the verse does not say they were always workers of iniquity though. Apparently they thought that they were saved, (maybe because at one point they were) but then they "worked iniquity" and Jesus disowned them.

That is how I would answer this question.

Oh, the reason I think it was that Jesus "disowned" them, is because the bible says Jesus knows everyone, because he is omniscient. So it doesn't really make sense to say that Jesus didn't know them, he knew their works, Revelation 3:15 (KJV) I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. .

Okay I'll stop for now. .

I strongly disagree. Christ was not disowning, it was because He never knew them. Period. The Greek word implies that!

I don't like caps because I don't think it's the most polite :D

I wish we could all talk in person, I discuss so much better in person!

Concerning this passage I will disagree with your saying that Jesus is speaking in the present tense only but, I think it is also future tense, as he is stating facts which he dosen't then put conditions on; e.g 'but those who come later…' etc.
John 10:27-29 (KJV)
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Concerning the Hebrews 6:4-6 passage, Are you saying that regenerate believers fall away, becomeing irrivocobly damned? You did say "The people that are being talked about in these verses ARE believers" . If you are saying that, I would like to ask you how you reconcile these verses with what we read in the John 10 passage.

Concerning this passage,
1 Corinthians 10:1-5 (KJV)
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

I believe that it is talking about the Jewish people as we read in the old testemant, and that it is referring to those children of Israel, who did not believe GOD.

Jude 1:5 (KJV)
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

They were saved from Egypt but didn't believe, there was no saving faith here.

On this one,
1 Timothy 4:1-3 (KJV)
1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall DEPART from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

I think we have another case of
1 John 2:19 (ESV)
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.

Conclusion, I believe that no one can be truly saved and then depart from Christ. Here I am not talking about those who fall into sin and then later repent, but someone who truly believed at one point, and then later ended up in hell.
To believe otherwise, I believe is unbiblical, and diminishes God's power, by saying that those that he saved he cannot keep. God is all-powerful.