Media

And if you think all video games are bad for they waste time, that would have to apply to most entertainment that you enjoy. Books, sports, movies, running around in circles, chatting on these worthless forums…

Yeah…which is why I think my opinion has changed.

Beautiful. Absolutely charmingly amazing. I never thought you would change your mind!

Humph.

My opinion in a nutshell: take every game by itself. I think that many games have unnecessary violence, but from what I have seen, I do not think that most do. Still, each game needs to be taken of its own accord. Is playing Monopoly on a board necessarily better than playing an online version on the computer with your friends across the country? Is playing Tetris with your brother on the computer or watching a documentary about God's Creation always worse than not flipping the switch? Everyone should judge whether they are making the best use of their time, but to say that using electricity-powered entertainment is always wrong or right of itself is a logical leap. When done right, media can be rewarding and building. When done wrong (and it is often done wrong in America), it can be harmful. Use your time and resources wisely, and focus on building your mind and your relationships the way God wants you to. :)

For those of you interested, this is Saints 3G's website. They are a Christian-centered gaming community, and hope to honor God in all of their gameplay.

http://www.saints3g.com/

EDIT: This is their constitution. Looks pretty solid to me.

http://www.saints3g.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2713427&gid=91149

I agree.

VERY solid.

VERY solid.

Sounds like they're against abortion, Sodomites, and big government too. Hm…weren't those some of the things Courtney was saying games encourage?

Violence.

I don't think all games have a lot of violence in them. I have a game called Endless Ocean, and the most violent it gets is when you get pushed by a current. Is that really violent? I also have the sequel to the game, and it's a little more violent, but it shows more realistically how dangerous diving can be. (Of course it still doesn't show how dangerous diving really can be. It only takes it so far.) One other game I can think of that doesn't have violence is Big Brain Academy, Wii Degree. It's full of fun games that can help you with memorizing, identifying, analyzing, computing, and visualizing. The most violent it gets is popping balloons and whacking moles, and how violent is that?

_I did say there was exceptions. I'm sure that both you and Sam have games like that that don't have much or any violence. But we're not looking at those here. The truth remains that *the great majority* of video games out there have violence. Unnecessary violence. UnBiblical violence._

Okay, I must have missed that part about the exceptions. :)

_I don't think we should murder people in most cases! The great majority of games *are* needlessly murdering people. It's not like you're going to have that kind of a life._

Is that so?! I never knew that! She's never even played a video game, yet she knows it!</blockquote>

I don't really appreciate the sarcasm, but minus that, I do have to agree with Noah here.

@Courtney, before you get into a big debate about this you need to do some serious research. Generalizations are one of the worst traps of debates, and you are making a lot of them. You have almost no experience in this field and therefore you have no way of knowing whether you are correct for sure. Take a hint from your big brother and don't make a fool of yourself. :)

I'm not what you would call a "gamer", but when I do occasionally play (usually computer games), I always prefer to do it with others. This is so much better spent time than self-absorbed gaming that never leaves you satisfied. Also, some of these types of games can tend to take your entire focus, where you're not really spending time with the friend as much as with the game.

_I don't think we should murder people in most cases! The great majority of games *are* needlessly murdering people. It's not like you're going to have that kind of a life._

Is that so?! I never knew that! She's never even played a video game, yet she knows it!

I don't really appreciate the sarcasm, but minus that, I do have to agree with Noah here.

@Courtney, before you get into a big debate about this you need to do some serious research. Generalizations are one of the worst traps of debates, and you are making a lot of them. You have almost no experience in this field and therefore you have no way of knowing whether you are correct for sure. Take a hint from your big brother and don't make a fool of yourself. :)

I'm not what you would call a "gamer", but when I do occasionally play (usually computer games), I always prefer to do it with others. This is so much better spent time than self-absorbed gaming that never leaves you satisfied. Also, some of these types of games can tend to take your entire focus, where you're not really spending time with the friend as much as with the game.</blockquote>

Thanks for chiming in. I agree about gaming with others: that's mostly why MMOs (Massively Multiplayer Online games) are so popular: playing with others gives you a fun sense of camraderie and fellowship. I don't think that single-player gaming leaves you unsatisfied, but playing with others does bring a new level of fun, and makes it a bit more meaningful. :)

_I did say there was exceptions. I'm sure that both you and Sam have games like that that don't have much or any violence. But we're not looking at those here. The truth remains that *the great majority* of video games out there have violence. Unnecessary violence. UnBiblical violence._

Me and Sam don't play video games with violence?!…..Does my Splinter Cell Blacklist count? Or Sam's Batman game?!

_I did say there was exceptions. I'm sure that both you and Sam have games like that that don't have much or any violence. But we're not looking at those here. The truth remains that *the great majority* of video games out there have violence. Unnecessary violence. UnBiblical violence._

Me and Sam don't play video games with violence?!.....Does my Splinter Cell Blacklist count? Or Sam's Batman game?!

I dunno. Let's see…in Batman…I'm fighting organized crime bosses who want to kill innocent people…should I not stop them?

Person: "BATMAN! HELP ME!"
Batman: "Sorry. I took an oath of no violence. Bye bye."
Joker: "What the-? Oh well."
Joker shoots hostage

Yeah. Sounds so great.

_I did say there was exceptions. I'm sure that both you and Sam have games like that that don't have much or any violence. But we're not looking at those here. The truth remains that *the great majority* of video games out there have violence. Unnecessary violence. UnBiblical violence._

Me and Sam don't play video games with violence?!.....Does my Splinter Cell Blacklist count? Or Sam's Batman game?!

I dunno. Let's see...in Batman...I'm fighting organized crime bosses who want to kill innocent people...should I not stop them? Person: "BATMAN! HELP ME!" Batman: "Sorry. I took an oath of no violence. Bye bye." Joker: "What the-? Oh well." *Joker shoots hostage* Yeah. Sounds so great.

Good one. Actually, Batman did take an oath of 'no violence'. He should at least kill the Joker.

_I don't think we should murder people in most cases! The great majority of games *are* needlessly murdering people. It's not like you're going to have that kind of a life._

Is that so?! I never knew that! She's never even played a video game, yet she knows it!

I don't really appreciate the sarcasm, but minus that, I do have to agree with Noah here.

@Courtney, before you get into a big debate about this you need to do some serious research. Generalizations are one of the worst traps of debates, and you are making a lot of them. You have almost no experience in this field and therefore you have no way of knowing whether you are correct for sure. Take a hint from your big brother and don't make a fool of yourself. :)

I'm not what you would call a "gamer", but when I do occasionally play (usually computer games), I always prefer to do it with others. This is so much better spent time than self-absorbed gaming that never leaves you satisfied. Also, some of these types of games can tend to take your entire focus, where you're not really spending time with the friend as much as with the game.</blockquote>

Okay Matthew, thanks for the advice. I am really, really sorry if I have sounded rude or harsh. I had no intention of that! Also, I am maintaining an open mindset and have been thinking a lot about what y'all have said. Matthew said that I am a fiery and controversial debater. I had no idea…it's hard to know how you sound over the Internet. And since I don't tend to be offended easily (over the Internet), maybe I assumed that other people don't tend to either. I am sorry.

Would y'all let me just drop from this topic of video games since I obviously don't have the experience that the rest of you do? There are more exceptions out there than that I expected. :P I try to always be open to changing my mind. For now just let me say that I don't think it is wrong to play video games. It depends on the game. (One thing that is difficult for me when I'm debating with guys, is that I am different than you and sometimes I don't understand how you think. My dad helped me with that today. :P)

I have a lot to say on the subject of other media, but for right now until I learn more about them, I'm dropping out from this specific subject. My brain is getting boggled trying to reply to four-five people at the same time anyway. :P :)

VERY solid.

Sounds like they're against abortion, Sodomites, and big government too. Hm...weren't those some of the things Courtney was saying games encourage?

I just want to say that I was NOT saying games encourage those things. I was saying that as our generation is spending so much time on things like that, they are not getting the spiritual training they need (are filling their minds with other stuff), and so many of them when they become adults will do that kind of thing.

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games.

Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

Sure. Replying now…

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

I believe that it depends on the type of violence:

Spanking is good, and commanded by the Bible. Violence to prevent bad and ungodly behavior is a good thing.

Violence performed without reason, is wrong. It would be wrong for me to randomly come up to you off the street and start punching your face.

Now, in terms of, should we shod violence on-screen? Well, that depends. I believe it is totally appropriate in certain settings. An action movie, or a war movie are good examples. The Passion of the Christ is a very violent movie, but the violence is appropriate: showing how Jesus was beaten and killed for our sins.

Did that answer your question? Anything you want me to clarify?

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

Different thread.

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

Different thread.

I suppose, but I meant mostly in relationship to media.

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

I believe that it depends on the type of violence: Spanking is good, and commanded by the Bible. *I agree with this.* Violence to prevent bad and ungodly behavior is a good thing. *Not sure about this. Most of the time, yes. It depends on the situation. And God has given the state (i.e. the police) the job of punishing and preventing evil.* Violence performed without reason, is wrong. It would be wrong for me to randomly come up to you off the street and start punching your face. *Of course.* Now, in terms of, should we shod violence on-screen? Well, that depends. I believe it is totally appropriate in certain settings. An action movie, or a war movie are good examples. The Passion of the Christ is a *very* violent movie, but the violence is appropriate: showing how Jesus was beaten and killed for our sins. *Could you define what you mean by violence in an action movie? Since I don't really watch those I'm not sure what you're talking about. War, sometimes. I think it is better to stay away from graphic stuff. The Passion of the Christ, I'm looking forward to seeing sometime soon, but I think the violence is acceptable in it.* Did that answer your question? Anything you want me to clarify? *I think so. I have some verses that I'll post tonight or tomorrow that I wondered what y'all thought of.*

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

I believe that it depends on the type of violence: Spanking is good, and commanded by the Bible. *I agree with this.* Violence to prevent bad and ungodly behavior is a good thing. *Not sure about this. Most of the time, yes. It depends on the situation. And God has given the state (i.e. the police) the job of punishing and preventing evil.* Violence performed without reason, is wrong. It would be wrong for me to randomly come up to you off the street and start punching your face. *Of course.* Now, in terms of, should we shod violence on-screen? Well, that depends. I believe it is totally appropriate in certain settings. An action movie, or a war movie are good examples. The Passion of the Christ is a *very* violent movie, but the violence is appropriate: showing how Jesus was beaten and killed for our sins. *Could you define what you mean by violence in an action movie? Since I don't really watch those I'm not sure what you're talking about. War, sometimes. I think it is better to stay away from graphic stuff. The Passion of the Christ, I'm looking forward to seeing sometime soon, but I think the violence is acceptable in it.* Violence in action movies may include fist-fighting, guns, knives, explosions, etc. Depending on the movie, it may or may not be graphic. Did that answer your question? Anything you want me to clarify? *I think so. I have some verses that I'll post tonight or tomorrow that I wondered what y'all thought of.* I'll be waiting, :)

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

I believe that it depends on the type of violence: Spanking is good, and commanded by the Bible. *I agree with this.* Violence to prevent bad and ungodly behavior is a good thing. *Not sure about this. Most of the time, yes. It depends on the situation. And God has given the state (i.e. the police) the job of punishing and preventing evil.* Violence performed without reason, is wrong. It would be wrong for me to randomly come up to you off the street and start punching your face. *Of course.* Now, in terms of, should we shod violence on-screen? Well, that depends. I believe it is totally appropriate in certain settings. An action movie, or a war movie are good examples. The Passion of the Christ is a *very* violent movie, but the violence is appropriate: showing how Jesus was beaten and killed for our sins. *Could you define what you mean by violence in an action movie? Since I don't really watch those I'm not sure what you're talking about. War, sometimes. I think it is better to stay away from graphic stuff. The Passion of the Christ, I'm looking forward to seeing sometime soon, but I think the violence is acceptable in it.* Did that answer your question? Anything you want me to clarify? *I think so. I have some verses that I'll post tonight or tomorrow that I wondered what y'all thought of.*

You think the violence in the Passion is acceptable but an E-10 rated video game isn't?!

Can we start with violence? NOT in specific relationship to video games. Why don't y'all tell me your thoughts on this, and then I'll tell you mine. I'm trying to not be so fiery and controversial this time. :P :)

I believe that it depends on the type of violence: Spanking is good, and commanded by the Bible. *I agree with this.* Violence to prevent bad and ungodly behavior is a good thing. *Not sure about this. Most of the time, yes. It depends on the situation. And God has given the state (i.e. the police) the job of punishing and preventing evil.* Violence performed without reason, is wrong. It would be wrong for me to randomly come up to you off the street and start punching your face. *Of course.* Now, in terms of, should we shod violence on-screen? Well, that depends. I believe it is totally appropriate in certain settings. An action movie, or a war movie are good examples. The Passion of the Christ is a *very* violent movie, but the violence is appropriate: showing how Jesus was beaten and killed for our sins. *Could you define what you mean by violence in an action movie? Since I don't really watch those I'm not sure what you're talking about. War, sometimes. I think it is better to stay away from graphic stuff. The Passion of the Christ, I'm looking forward to seeing sometime soon, but I think the violence is acceptable in it.* Did that answer your question? Anything you want me to clarify? *I think so. I have some verses that I'll post tonight or tomorrow that I wondered what y'all thought of.*

You think the violence in the _Passion_ is acceptable but an E-10 rated video game isn't?!

I said I'm off that subject now. I must admit, having talked to you guys, my opinion of video games is better. But - since I don't have much or any experience in that area, I am not going to decide completely one way or the other.

What do you think of these: (they're kind of disorderly, but I think you'll be able to see how they relate to media)

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

Psalm 90:12
So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

Proverbs 6:27-28
Can a man take fire in his bosom, and his clothes not be burned? Can one go upon hot coals, and his feet not be burned?

Proverbs 3:7
Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the Lord, and depart from evil.

Proverbs 4:14-19, 23, 25, 27
Enter not into the path of the wicked, and go not in the way of evil men. Avoid it, pass not by it, turn from it, and pass away. For they sleep not, except they have done mischief; and their sleep is taken away, unless they cause some to fall. For they eat the bread of wickedness, and drink the wine of violence. But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble…….Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life……..Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee……….Turn not to the right hand nor to the left: remove thy foot from evil.

Psalm 11:5
The Lord trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Luke 3:14
And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

Ezekiel 7:23
Make a chain: for the land is full of bloody crimes, and the city is full of violence.

Obadiah 10
For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.

Psalm 140:11
Let not an evil speaker be established in the earth: evil shall hunt the violent man to overthrow him.

Genesis 6:11-13
The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Habakkuk 2:17
For the violence of Lebanon shall cover thee, and the spoil of beasts, which made them afraid, because of men's blood, and for the violence of the land, of the city, and of all that dwell therein.

Psalm 101:3
I will set no wicked thing before mine eyes: I hate the work of them that turn aside; it shall not cleave to me.

The main point you're trying to convey is that violence in any form equates with evil, and that video games that feature forms of violence are evil. Basically.

Not exactly. And I said I'm not going to talk about video games anymore. Violence is a part of life (in certain areas), and we can't avoid it. One thing I think God is trying to say is that we shouldn't take pleasure in violence. (Ps. 11:5) We shouldn't enjoy the actual deed of violence portrayed on screen. It's used to make a point (like, I think, in Courageous, the violence is acceptable, and in the Passion), but too much is, just, too much.

And besides, even if that was the main point I'm trying to convey, if the Bible agreed with me, it would be a valid point to make! Right?

Quote "Like, I think, in Courageous, the violence is acceptable, and in the Passion"

Who decides how much violence is acceptable on screen?

God does. It's not a matter of "beauty is in the eye of the beholder". God decides the standards of right and wrong. That is just my opinion.

How do you know what God decided?

I don't, for sure. I can gather clues from God's Word and what His Spirit might show me, but I can't be sure. Neither can you. I have my opinion, but I can't just say that you're wrong, because I am a fallible human being and I could very possibly be wrong as well.

And besides, even if that was the main point I'm trying to convey, if the Bible agreed with me, it would be a valid point to make! Right?

If it did. Which neither of us are actually sure it does.

Should I not enjoy slaying a dragon, such as in Skyrim? Should I not enjoy beating up criminals to save innocent people, such as in the Batman: Arkham games? Should I not enjoy slaying evil knights or redcoats, such as in Assassin's Creed? That's something I'm going to be thinking about. If it's encouraging me to hate evil, and embrace good, is it wrong? But, if it's encouraging me to take the most violent way to end a conflict, is that right? All valid questions.

As a guy, I do believe that God has instilled in me a desire to fight: guys are made to overcome conflicts. From battling the earth growing crops, to defeating evil nations who want to make you their slaves, men are natural fighters. I think that when there isn't a main, big conflict, we tend to make smaller things our "domain", we want to protect what is "ours", and defend it against the "enemies" who disagree with us. Which, I think, is mostly why there is so much rivalry about sports, games, and other things. When you come down to it…it's actually pretty silly, the fact that it's dangerous to wear a Browns hat in Stealer "territory". Or that, if you were to post a video on YouTube about Call of Duty, there will, without fail, be a war in the comments about whether Halo is better than Call of Duty or not. So, maybe that;s partly why games centering about fighting are so popular: men want a conflict to resolve, a battle to win.

My two and a half cents on the issue.

As I said to Noah. But, it seems to me that those verses are pretty clear about the violence thing.

No, I don't think you should enjoy it. I don't know for sure, but just the way you phrased those examples sounded like hating the sinner. We should hate the sin, love the sinner. And murder is wrong. Just a disclaimer - I think "thou shalt not kill" is a mistranslation. Murder is the sin, not necessarily killing.

Quote: "It it's encouraging me to hate evil, and embrace good, is it wrong?" No, not that part of it. And I think it's wrong to encourage you to seek out violence, if that's what you meant.

My dad was just talking to me about that the other day. :P Being a girl, I can't quite understand that, but I believe you. :)

In Skyrim, I'm fighting a marauding dragon which would otherwise destroy most of my world.

In the Batman: Arkham games, I'm fighting organized crime in a city so corrupt that the police are basically ineffective.

In the Assassin's Creed games, I'm fighting an evil organization that's been around for centuries that wants to take over the world.

I don't believe in any of those cases, I'm "hating the sinner", but doing what I must to defeat them. There really isn't an alternative: you fight because they won't stop otherwise. Is that wrong?

And besides, even if that was the main point I'm trying to convey, if the Bible agreed with me, it would be a valid point to make! Right?

If it did. Which neither of us are actually sure it does. Should I not enjoy slaying a dragon, such as in _Skyrim_? Should I not enjoy beating up criminals to save innocent people, such as in the _Batman: Arkham_ games? Should I not enjoy slaying evil knights or redcoats, such as in _Assassin's Creed_? That's something I'm going to be thinking about. If it's encouraging me to hate evil, and embrace good, is it wrong? But, if it's encouraging me to take the most violent way to end a conflict, is that right? All valid questions. As a guy, I do believe that God has instilled in me a desire to fight: guys are made to overcome conflicts. From battling the earth growing crops, to defeating evil nations who want to make you their slaves, men are natural fighters. I think that when there isn't a main, big conflict, we tend to make smaller things our "domain", we want to protect what is "ours", and defend it against the "enemies" who disagree with us. Which, I think, is mostly why there is so much rivalry about sports, games, and other things. When you come down to it...it's actually pretty silly, the fact that it's dangerous to wear a Browns hat in Stealer "territory". Or that, if you were to post a video on YouTube about Call of Duty, there will, without fail, be a war in the comments about whether Halo is better than Call of Duty or not. So, maybe that;s partly why games centering about fighting are so popular: men want a conflict to resolve, a battle to win. My two and a half cents on the issue.

Very well written, and conveys a good point.

Okay. No, it isn't. But, since none of those things are likely to happen in real life, I don't think it's really that good of a way to spend your time.

Okay. No, it isn't. But, since none of those things are likely to happen in real life, I don't think it's really that good of a way to spend your time.

And, going to space and making repeated trips to foreign countries are unlikely to happen to you in real life as well, as is everyone opposing you being an evolutionist. Jonathan Park, anyone?

Now, you're going to say "Jonathan Park encourages Godly standards and morals!". And, I know. But, secular entertainment can do the same. Not in the same way, but those principles can still be gleaned from them. Iron Man 3 is a big statement of "Pride goeth before a fall." Frozen tells us that true love shows itself through it's actions, and is never "at first sight". Are these bad things to learn?

No, they are not.

One thing I've been learning recently is that boredom is a mental appetite, similar to the concept that hunger is a physical appetite. Similar to the unwise way we sometimes satisfy our physical appetites with junk food, we often grab whatever is available, 'junk food', to satisfy our mental appetites. I would propose the idea that a lot of media is mental 'junk food'. When we fill our minds with 'junk food', we will ruin our appetites for the things that really matter.

I'd agree with you, for the most part. I'm not going to say that all media is "junk food", but that too much media will lead to less interest in spiritual matters and in the lives of those around you, which will degrade your spiritual life. And that is wrong.

So…does this mean we agree? :)

I agree. :P :)

Hmm, what about romance?

It's our third middle name.

Your third middle name…I would never have guessed…what are the others?

Awesomeness.

And?

I think that that is not a blatant generalization. Most of them are pretty nasty. There are few exceptions in the secular entertainment culture.

I just don't like to watch movies often, anyways.

I think most of what Carl Kerby said was valid. There is so much out there that I don't even know, and don't want to know, and I won't try to learn it from experience, so I'll depend on what others say.

Oh, hello Professor. Remind me, how many video games have you played?

Gen-er-al-i-za-tion.

I agree. :P :) Hmm, what about romance?

Depends on the situation and the characters involved. It can be appropriate, in some settings.