Extrabiblical "Religious" Holidays

From what I've seen of your posts on here, I think you are correct at least with most of what you said. I think that Christmas Halloween Easter and Lent have pagan origins.

So does Sunday, in fact.

Sorry, I just had to say that. It's what my church's doctrinal beliefs booklet says. Besides, I started this topic, and I haven't even gotten a word in yet! :P

From what I've seen of your posts on here, I think you are correct at least with most of what you said. I think that Christmas Halloween Easter and Lent have pagan origins.

Which to some Christians, causes them to stay away from these 'holidays', and to others merely gives another example of what we already knew to be a fallen world, and has no affect as to their present celebration.

Thank you for responding to the question I asked. Why did you not put Mormonism in the group with Christianity and Judaism? They claim to worship the same person, but they have beliefs about Jesus that are wrong, according to what the Bible says. Judaism isn't a second choice as a way to heaven for Jews, they don't believe in the Trinity, certainly not in Jesus(the ONLY way) and his death and resurrection. I think they do have an idol - of legalism - the things they believe they still have to do, and it isn't all heritage, or a "way of life".

Jimmy,

I am sorry I have not gotten back to you sooner. I hope to jump back into the conversation and reply to your points sometime this week or next. I am kind of waiting for an opportunity to talk to my Grandfather on the subject, that may give me more ideas to add to our discussion and help me clarify the ones I have already presented. Just wanted to let you know that I have not forgotten about it! ;)

In Christ,
Sarah B. (Lady Elusive)

Are you going to reply to my points as well? :) No one replied to my post yet, except for Jimmy to say that I was clear in my words.
Awaiting your responses… :)

i think breathing has pagan origins so im not going to breath anymore…..what do you all think?
(apologizes profusely for being sarcastic on the theological forums)

Thank you.

"Pagan origins" means nothing in the long run. As Jimmy has been saying over and over, it all depends on whether it is sinful or has pagan connotations now.

yes! now Yoga still is Pagan, but Christmas? seriously .

I said I wasn't going to discuss this more but do y'all mind if I say one thing?

Go ahead. :)

Thanks :)

Christmas (Christ Mass) is a catholic holiday.

I love Christ…and if they want to do a mass about him, im cool with that…..

So you're fine with them teaching a false doctrine?

I was just kidding….but celebrating the birth of Christ is good i think….unless you do it like everybody at walmart…..
facepalm

But it isn't just Catholic anymore; not in the least! It may have started out that way, but now it is mainly associated only with the birth/incarnation of Christ. True Christians can use December 25th for Christ's glory, just as much as they can turn around any part of God's creation that the world has polluted!

Like Halloween? You really think so? God doesn't want anything to do with other false religions… He is a HOLY God!

@seth: Yes, I am considering your post as well! Thank you for reminding me! Sorry for the delay.

But God did not create Christmas and then the world plluted it. The world created Christmas and stuck God in it.

You could also put it this way, Carissa: God created worship, trees, lights, celebrations, and happiness, but the world polluted that and stuck false gods in it. Christmas, I believe, is in a sense a reclaiming of those things for God and a special celebration of His birth.

Again, though, we have to be very clear about the actual relationship we take origins to hold on present practice.

I am feeling a little swamped here (as I don’t get a Christmas break :))… but I will try to make my answer as precise I can.

Your first question: Should we celebrate the birth of Christ? Let me ask you a question too. How well do the traditions of Christmas match the Bible account of Christ’s birth? Did three wise men travel to see Jesus? Did everyone exchange gifts when Christ was born? Gifts were given to Jesus alone because he was/is the King of Kings. There is no instruction in the Bible, what so ever, to celebrate his birth, however Jesus told us clearly how to commemorate His death.
Christans will never be able to cut out everything pagan from Christmas (and as I understand you don’t even want to).

History shows that Dec. 25th was not popularized as the date for Christmas because it was Jesus’ birthday but because it was already a popular pagan celebration. Careful examination of Scripture makes it clear that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25th. So the date in it’s self is unbiblical. That is the best answer I can give to your second and third question at the moment.

As for questions 4 and 5: Part of the reason for our existence is to worship God (Psalm 22:27). Jesus said that “the true worshipers worship in spirit and truth” (John 4:23-24). He also says that some will worship in vain, because their practices are rooted in mankind’s traditions. Worship in vain is rooted in man kind’s traditions! He also says about such people, “They draw near to me with there mouths but their heart is far from Me” (Matthew 15:7-9). So is it right to celebrate Christmas?

Okay, when you consider celebrations are you basing your decision on your human reasoning? Or are you looking into God’s Word to see how He observes the mixing of pagan practices and customs with worshiping Him in His Holiness?

Did I get all of your questions covered? I hope so. It really helps me to have them numbered! :) Thank you! I look forward to hearing your thoughts again!

@jimmy: I hope to work on a reply to your post tonight… Lord willing I will be able to post it tomorrow, or the next day.

I’m sorry, the more I look at that post the more I think I could have done better at making it easier to understand. There seems to be a lot of stray thoughts are in there too. I will try to do better at organization next post!

Hi Lady Elusive,

Point 1, - Should we celebrate the birth of Christ? Actually, your answer wasn't really applicable to this point - it would fit point 5 better - so I'll address it then. We both agree that we should indeed celebrate Christ's birth (from your 2nd comment on page 2, in response to Jimmy). Whether we emphasize one particular day or not doesn't matter at this point, so we should be both on the same page here.

Point 2 - Should we emphasize celebrating Christ's birth on a particular day of the year? I would like to quote my previous post; "I think we can agree that it is not necessary to set apart a specific day to remember Jesus' birth. Some people, myself included, benefit from that because it tends to be pushed into the background too much otherwise. However, I don't think anyone can biblically argue that it pleases God more or less to have a specific day set apart to remember a specific time when God's grace and mercy were clearly shown". At this point I'm not asking about December 25th in particular, I was intending to ask whether you find it biblically wrong to emphasize one day (any day) of the year to celebrate Christ's birth. I completely realize that it is very unlikely that Jesus was actually born on December 25th.

Are we in agreement up to here?

Alright, point 3 - Again, I am not suggesting that Christ was born on December 25th. Sorry if I was unclear on that point earlier. However, your reply actually did not answer my question. We both agree that December 25th was popularized because of a pagan celebration, what I was asking was is you could give me some scriptural support to help me understand why exactly you feel that the historical connections make December 25th an undesirable day to celebrate Christ's birth.

Point 4 - Again, you are warning against following ungodly traditions, which is good, but you failed to answer my question. I would really like to know how you discern between holidays such as Christmas and using the commonly accepted days of the week, wedding rings, etcetera.

Point 5 (Which you answered first) - Agreed, popular Christmas traditions are for the most part not rooted in God's word. We are not given the number of shepherds or wise men, and the magi came to see Jesus much later - when he was in "a house" - and Christmas trees have pretty much zippo connections with Christ's birth, as far as I can tell. Check that on our "agreed" list as well. :) What are you trying to communicate here? Are you asking "Is it glorifying to God to give gifts on Christmas?" I would say no, not necessarily - what do you have against it?

"are you looking into God’s Word to see how He observes the mixing of pagan practices and customs with worshiping Him in His Holiness?"
Please, please give me some scriptures on that subject. I would be happy to consider them, but I need to know which scriptures you are referring to. :)

Thanks for you patience in discussing this topic, I know that it probably feels like you're just repeating yourself over and over. :) I've really been enjoying it, and it's certainly given me some things to continue to think about.

Hi Jimmy! Here is my reply to your comment a few pages back. I hope I made this more understandable for you. Thank you for you patience with me in this debate.

1. You and I obviously have different views on this point of history. Though Constantine may have been trying to do a good thing (which is debatable) the end resulted was very bad because he did not refute paganism completely.

You are asking how is celebrating this holiday adding to Christianity, and how do I explain that thinking? The scripture to back up what I said is Deuteronomy 12:32, but in order to get the full picture you will want to read starting in verse 29. “When the LORD your God cuts off from before you the nations which you go to dispossess, and you displace them and dwell in their land, take heed to yourself that you are not ensnared to follow them, after they are destroyed from before you, and that you do not inquire after their gods, saying, ‘How did these nations serve their gods? I also will do likewise.’ You shall not worship the LORD your God in that way; for every abomination to the LORD which He hates they have done to their gods; for they burn even their sons and daughters in the fire to their gods. “Whatever I command you, be careful to observe it; you shall not add to it nor take away from it. (Deuteronomy 12:32)

1. Okay, I think there is a bit of misunderstanding here. I was saying that I do not like the idea of calling the days of the week by the names of gods, but that is what we have done for years and years. You stated that: “No one thinks our celebration of Christmas is representative of paganism (that is, no one looks at us and says, "Oh, they are pagans worshiping a multitude of gods.")” But what does God say? That should be our main concern. You said, “The past allows us to see how we can right what was twisted.” I believe that it was twisted and you are trying to twist it even more because Christ was never a part of paganism and he is no glorified in it. Christmas has ties that go all the way back to worship in Babylon at the tower of Nimrod. (I recently found this out and am still looking into it more.) Revelation 18:4-5 says “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.”

2. I don’t think there is anything wrong with carving your name in a tree either. I am looking again at those verses and I think that perhaps that was not a very good example to use again Christmas trees. You are so right when you said that God wants us to do things for the deeper purpose behind them. The deeper purpose of Christmas is to preserve paganism. Is it wrong to again view trees and bring them into our homes and to admire (not worship) what our heavenly father has created? Yes. Look at what time you are doing it and what you are observing when you do so! What does a tree have to do with Christ? The apostle Paul gives a warning in Colossians 2:8, “Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.” Do you believe it is wrong for someone to get caught up in something that is very wrong and use the same excuse you are about Christmas saying, “My purpose is not bad so neither is the action.”? I think it is wrong. You can’t mix good and bad and still please God.
   In Zephaniah 1:5 God declared, “Those who worship the host of heaven on the housetops; "Those who worship and swear oaths by the LORD, But who also swear by Milcom” God is not pleased when people are double minded (James 1:8, 4:8) in their worship- accepting false religions and customs while professing to worship Him.

3. The celebration of Christmas has always been the same because of its underlining ties with paganism. God will always reject that kind of worship. God does not change. The heathens do better at keeping Christianity out of their religion then Christians do at keeping paganism out of Christianity. (btw, Tertullian said something like that first, but I was unsuccessful in finding the exact quote.) There was time when Christmas was not celebrated in America. In fact that is how we won the Battle of Trenton. The Hessian soldiers had been celebrating and getting drunk, and early the next morning of December 26, 1776, they where caught off guard, and destroyed by the Continentals.

4. I am saying both, that because the apostles were not given (nor gave) any instruction to celebrate or even commemorate Christ’s birth like that, we should not. Christ showed us how to commemorate him. I believe that the whole Bible speaks out against Christmas.

Please let me know what you think! I hope this post is more organized and understandable for you. :)

Merry Christmas Adam and Eve!

How many of you here wear glasses? Because if you do, you're also supporting paganism. The first recorded use of glasses were made and used by the Dominican friar Giordano da Pisa. And, since he was a Catholic friar, and Catholicism has pagan roots, therefore anyone wearing glasses supports paganism.

WE"RE PAGANS WHEN WE"RE NOT IN COSTUME!

AAAAAAH! What shall we do to be saved?!

I think a few "Hail, Mary"'s should cover it. :P

Ok good thanks

You're welcome. I can't have my friend Deadpool wallowing in sin, now can I? :P

I’m sorry Sam, in order to understand your argument I would have to do a lot of research and I feel that I am arguing about holidays here not glasses. God uses sinful men to accomplish things. It’s not like just because a person is bad, God can’t use him to change someone's life. That dose not make the person right, or prove that we should follow their religions.
Also I would like to point out that not all Catholic ideas are connected to pagan thinking.

you saved our life, we are eternally grateful!

OOC: That's pretty funny Sam, you has a good sense of humor!

How many of you here wear glasses? Because if you do, you're also supporting paganism. The first recorded use of glasses were made and used by the Dominican friar Giordano da Pisa. And, since he was a Catholic friar, and Catholicism has pagan roots, therefore anyone wearing glasses supports paganism.

see…i knew i was a dedicated pagan LOL JK

*you saved our life, we are eternally grateful!* OOC: That's pretty funny Sam, you has a good sense of humor!

dear, its "you have" not "you has"

Did you get the Femails?

yup….and I wrote you back too.

Chimichangas forever…..LOL

I’m sorry Sam, in order to understand your argument I would have to do a lot of research and I feel that I am arguing about holidays here not glasses. God uses sinful men to accomplish things. It’s not like just because a person is bad, God can’t use him to change someone's life. That dose not make the person right, or prove that we should follow their religions. Also I would like to point out that not all Catholic ideas are connected to pagan thinking.

So, in that case, why can't God use a day with "pagan origins" to accomplish good things? Because that's your whole argument, that since it has "pagan roots", it's bad, and can in no way be used for any good purpose. Why can't Christmas be used to turn people to Christ?

I’m sorry Sam, in order to understand your argument I would have to do a lot of research and I feel that I am arguing about holidays here not glasses. God uses sinful men to accomplish things. It’s not like just because a person is bad, God can’t use him to change someone's life. That dose not make the person right, or prove that we should follow their religions. Also I would like to point out that not all Catholic ideas are connected to pagan thinking.

So, in that case, why can't God use a day with "pagan origins" to accomplish good things? Because that's your whole argument, that since it has "pagan roots", it's bad, and can in no way be used for any good purpose. Why can't Christmas be used to turn people to Christ?

That dose not make the Christmas right, or prove that we should celebrate it!

Correct. But it makes Christmas not wrong, and proves that we can celebrate it!

No it does not! Like I said before, it is a form of worshiping Him in vain. It is unacceptable to Him! He says, "They draw near to Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips, but their hearts are far from Me." Matthew 15:7-9; and Mark 7:6-9

And with that, we've settled the debate! :D

So………..are you saying that people who come to Christ during a Christmas service aren't truly saved?

Also, the reason churches meet on Sundays is to commemorate that Jesus rose again on a Sunday. But, since nowhere in Scripture are we told to do this, does that make it therefore wrong?

Who am I to know the ways of God? God can use anything for his glory, but he also makes it very clear that we are not to use bad things to worship Him!
I don't believe that is the reason we meet on Sunday.

And how is Christmas a bad thing? It was once associated with paganism, but is no more, generally. We can use neutral things to glorify Him, and the things involved in Christmas are essentially neutral.

@Spider Man: Wait, are you saying Catholicism is rooted in Paganism? I would actually disagree with you on that point, but that is a question for another discussion. :)

@Elusive Lady: Thank you for your response. :) I will do my best to respond and to hear your response one more time. I actually think that we have begun to come to a sort of wall in this debate. I will, as I said, certainly try to respond to you and hear your reply, but I think that we really have reached the foundations for what we believe and why. I think that is, overall, a good thing. :) When we debate someone on different sides of this question, we can better see exactly where they are coming from. We know the principles (The chief disagreement is whether past continues on to the present, I think you will agree) and we can respond more effectively as a result. :) Of course, this conversation can and should still continue, but I think that my perspective and particular takes on the issue have been adequately represented and responded to (allowing those who read to make a personal decision as to which they believe is more accurate), and I think my saying them many more times would become repetitive. I would encourage everyone else to continue to present their perspectives, but I don't want to bother you by appearing to continually repeat myself. :)

by the way- MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERYBODY!!!!!!
sorry i just had to say that

But we already did!

you beat me to saying merry christmas to them???? argh!!

great minds think alike……jkjkjkjkjkjkjk

You're saying that we don't have a great mind?

Its a criminal mind……..I inherited it