Is it right for a Christian to drink....

"The water was not good for drinking."
This confuses me. Why do you say the water was bad?
John 4:13 "Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?"

1 Chronicles 11:17 "David longed for water and said, "Oh, that someone would get me a drink of water from the well near the gate of Bethlehem!"

Genesis 24:45 "And before I had done speaking in mine heart, behold, Rebekah came forth with her pitcher on her shoulder; and she went down unto the well, and drew water: and I said unto her, Let me drink, I pray thee."

Strait outa the well.

Our church uses grape juice. :-)

Ours does too :)

Yeah, ours does, too.

That was in the OT in a different spot, though. I don't know if that makes any difference, just saying. :-)

The water in many of the cities was bad.

The water in many of the cities was bad.

Yup.
Okay, so reading what y'all are saying I should let y'all know that I was wrong. Drinking an acholoic (is that how you spell it???) beverage is not wrong so long as it is not done for the wrong motive and you don't become addicted to it and so long as it does not cause anyone to stumble. I personally don't think that it is wise to drink it though. An

EDIT: And in our church we use grape juice.

Thanks for responding, but I did not quite understand. You mean the cities with the bad water that you were thinking of were in the Old Testament?

@sam-thanks for the verse

I dont think drinking is a sin unless you get drunk. Although….it is a bad example to kids and might cause a former alcoholic to be tempted.
"wine is a mocker strong drink is raging and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise"
"it is not for kings o lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, nor for princes strong dring, lest they drink and forget the law and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted,"

remember?

Two of my brothers have an alcohol problem. Think of the problem they would face (if they had overcome their problem and became christians) if they were offered wine at a communion service. It's just reintroducing an old enemy.

Sorry, that didn't make much sense, did it? :-P

They were saying that wine in the Bible was water mixed with a few drops of alcohol, to purify it, because the water was bad. You gave some examples of verses in the OT that imply that the water was good for drinking. No doubt the water was good in those examples. Do you have any NT examples? Even though the water in your examples was good, it could have been different in a different spot, say, where Jesus was, right? If the water where and when Jesus lived was bad, they could be right about wine being water mixed with a few drops of alcohol. Does that make more sense? I am having trouble phrasing my thoughts into understandable sentences right now. :-P ;-)

Interesting conversation:). It may be helpful to recall that Jesus' first miracle was to create about 150 gallons of wine, not to mention that it was quite good wine. That would be a rather strange way to begin his public ministry if he was going to condemn the consumption of alcohol. Of course the Bible is quite clear that we should not get drunk, but if anyone believes that alcohol is simply never okay then I would like to hear them explain this. Narurally if someone is struggling against temptation that it would not be advisable to drink, whether during communion or elsewhere (as a note my church has grape juice in the outer ring and wine in the middle just for this purpose). However Jesus did hand our wine during the Last Supper, which is why our church includes that as well.

Concerning tattooing/body piercings, etc - For those who are against tattoos/dying your hair because it is 'changing the way God made you', what are your thoughts about someone who was born with a large birthmark, or who has a naturally "deformed" face? Is it wrong to be surgically altered in such a case?

Thoughts? :)

I hadn't thought of that, but I agree. That wouldn't make much sense if he didn't want us to drink any alcohol at all. :-)

I don't think it is necessarily wrong to dye your hair. I certainly wouldn't ever want to, though! I'm not sure about tattoos. We are supposed to be content, and if you aren't satisfied with the way God made you, you won't be happy the way you make yourself either. I heard a story from IBLP that was saying how every one has something about themselves that they are not happy with. They even got a testimony from the husband of a former American Idol. He had asked his wife if there was anything she would change about how she looked, and she replied with a whole list of things! It is not wrong to want something different, but it is wrong to be discontent with yourself. And birthmarks are unique and special! When my little sisters wonder if my large birthmark is an "owie", I just tell them that God kissed me right there before I was born, and that is why I have a mark. :-)

Remember, we are the ones brought sin into the world. Before the curse, I don't think there would have been children born deformed. In heaven I don't believe there will be. Physical deformities and sicknesses are a result of the curse. It is our fault, not God's. He wouldn't have chosen to make us that way.

Physical deformities and sicknesses are a result of the curse.

If so, than shouldn't we desire to remove such 'stains of sin' from the temple of God? :) If someone was born with an arm that was bent the wrong way or some other obvious public disfigure that could be relatively safely fixed by surgery, should that be considered part of how God made him or a result of the Curse? Birthmarks could potentially be considered different and not applicable here. I'm not agreeing with this view I'm presenting, but I'm bringing it up for the sake of discussion and better understanding of what we believe.

Well, yes, if something like your example of an arm bent the wrong way could be fixed by surgery. I agree with that. I believe it is a result of the Curse, because an arm bent out of shape isn't the way God made our arms to work. We just shouldn't be discontent with things like our facial features, the color of our hair, how tall (or short!) we are, etc., because God did make us that way.

Interesting read through all the responses as well as the little tangents that found their way into the discussion. Tattoos is a funny thing, I think. Because some people justify it and other people condemn it. It seems it comes down to personal preference. Or as we in the Church call it, Christian Liberty.

A problem with starting an argument with, "personally I feel…" is that it is personal. It is an opinion based on conclusions that you have drawn by yourself that best suits your own understanding and what makes you best feel comfortable.

The Bible doesn't say anything about selling your daughter into slavery as being wrong but doing it doesn't make it right. The same goes for Yoga, Porn and a number of other things. When it comes to Tattoos, it seems there is mist over the whole subject. Luckily for us Jesus is a Jew and if he had gone and got a tattoo it would have been a sin, according to the Law.

Again, lucky for us, (and this is the grace we receive) we need not be under the law, (we were never under the law as we were never jewish) but we are under Grace. This, as Paul says, does not mean we discard the Law, but uphold the Law. It is the Law that shows us our sinfulness. It was never intended for salvation. Salvation has always been through Faith. And now that we can have this Grace, by living in Faith, our lives need to be a reflection of Christ in every part of our lives.

If what we are doing (whether tattoos, movies, games, relationships, clothing, manner of speaking, actions, etc) does not bring Glory to God, stop it. Because whether we eat, or drink or whatever we do, do it all to the Glory of God. And we must do this his way, not our way. We praise God on his terms, not our terms. God has given us more than enough instruction on how to serve him, honour him and worship him. I read about making disciples, looking after orphans, looking after widows, letting my light shine, giving to those who ask, being a light to the world, not being polluted by the world, loving the Church, Loving Israel and most of all, to be conformed to the image of Christ, to grow in knowledge and depth of insight, and to share the power of salvation to all men, first to the Jew and then to the Gentile.

We must become less so that he can become more in our lives. We must draw less attention to ourselves and point more people to Christ.

Yip, this is a tangent and the post is probably closed but I had a few cents in my back pocket and wanted to just throw them out there. If the coins are making to much noise on the floor, I will gladly pick them up. I can use them for tiddly winks later.

What do you think? Is it okay if you drink beer/wine every now and then? What about tattoos, or the types of movies you watch? Like do you think that it is right for Christians to watching Rated-R movies?

My dads best friend got drunk and fell asleep on a train track and the train came and broke most of there ribs and cut of their legs.
Another best friend of his was drunk and driving and they killed someone, he died also.

What do you think? Is it okay if you drink beer/wine every now and then? What about tattoos, or the types of movies you watch? Like do you think that it is right for Christians to watching Rated-R movies?

My dads best friend got drunk and fell asleep on a train track and the train came and broke most of there ribs and cut of their legs. Another best friend of his was drunk and driving and they killed someone, he died also.

No better argument needed.

Wkr!! (We know right!)

Wkr!! (We know right!)

We know.

Great thoughts! Thanks for sharing!

A problem with starting an argument with, "personally I feel..." is that it is personal. It is an opinion based on conclusions that you have drawn by yourself that best suits your own understanding and what makes you best feel comfortable.

Thank you! That is what I notice the most about the TD forums - many of the arguments are based on "I feel" or "I think" rather than "this is the reason I have come to this conclusion". I'm glad someone else has noticed the same thing. :) Interestingly enough, a large portion of the discussions on memverse that have turned into irritable arguments were between parties who presented, and defended, ideas which were not adequately supported by anything except their personal opinion (which, ultimately, has no bearing on whether the idea is true or false).
That's a good reminder, we should always remember that our ultimate purpose is to glorify God, whether we have tattoos or not. :)

A problem with starting an argument with, "personally I feel..." is that it is personal. It is an opinion based on conclusions that you have drawn by yourself that best suits your own understanding and what makes you best feel comfortable.

Thank you! That is what I notice the most about the TD forums - many of the arguments are based on "I feel" or "I think" rather than "this is the reason I have come to this conclusion". I'm glad someone else has noticed the same thing. :) Interestingly enough, a large portion of the discussions on memverse that have turned into irritable arguments were between parties who presented, and defended, ideas which were not adequately supported by anything except their personal opinion (which, ultimately, has no bearing on whether the idea is true or false). That's a good reminder, we should always remember that our ultimate purpose is to glorify God, whether we have tattoos or not. :)

Agreed. We should have a Memverse TD Reformation.

Deadpools: (are y'all being sarcastic?) We all know (or definitely ought to know) that drunkenness is wrong. The question is whether alcohol is prohibited by God.
As Seth said, if God doesn't want us drinking wine, then why did Jesus make a whole bunch of it as His first public miracle. Furthermore, why did Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of God Most High bring out bread and wine to Abram in Genesis 14?

My dad uses wine for communion for our family when possible, but that doesn't always work since Southern Baptists are generally staunchly anti-alcohol and that could be an offense or a stumbling block.

Deadpools: (are y'all being sarcastic?) We all know (or definitely ought to know) that drunkenness is wrong. The question is whether alcohol is prohibited by God. As Seth said, if God doesn't want us drinking wine, then why did Jesus make a whole bunch of it as His first public miracle. Furthermore, why did Melchizedek, king of Salem and priest of God Most High bring out bread and wine to Abram in Genesis 14? My dad uses wine for communion for our family when possible, but that doesn't always work since Southern Baptists are generally staunchly anti-alcohol and that could be an offense or a stumbling block.

I disagree that most of the wine used in Bible times was alcoholic, and the wine that was had a small alcohol content. If you have ever been in a debate about this before you have probably heard that. And you might disagree, but the (many multiploids) sermons I've heard on the subject explain it very reasonably. (Like Jesus making 'good' wine, for non-alcoholic wine was more desirable, seeing as it was sweeter)

Even without the Biblical aspect, I have a much stronger argument against alcohol than you can ever hope to have. Drinking alcohol is never a good idea, (try naming one) and if a large dose is taken, it can result in violence and even death.

"…it [alcohol] is a vile drink that turns even the most respectable men into complete scoundrels."

If you think drinking wine is okay for communion, is it okay for everyday use? For _ANY_ age? Would you let little kids drink wine? Whiskey? If Jesus made alcoholic wine and its cool, why not?

Thanks so much for answering me!
First of all, according to my knowledge (tell me if otherwise), wine is by definition alcoholic. So if we are considering whether alcohol is biblically permissible, even a small amount of allowed alcohol content should decide that.
Second, I question your authorities on wine flavor. I think it would be safe to guess that if they are arguing that Jesus made non-alcoholic wine, they have probably have hardly (if ever) tasted wine or any other alcoholic beverage. So, in their stead, I propose a couple of (in my opinion) more reliable authorities.
To some sweet, fruity, wine is gross. Now you might say that's personal preference. But if it is considered with regard to the preference of society in general, the more expensive the wine, the better it ought to taste (right?). Well, more expensive wine does not tend toward sweetness, but is at least an even mixture of the dry (bitter) and the fruity (sweet).
Good reasons to drink alcohol:

1. It is medicinally useful (I Tim 5:23),
2. It can rejoice the heart,
3. It can calm the mind and soul.

Side note:
Beer was drunk from cradle to grave by the Puritans.

I do think that wine is okay for everyday use, and I'm not sure if it is wise for any age (for example, a 3 month old baby). The child's parents should certainly be able to judge. FYI, It takes quite a bit of wine and more of beer to make someone drunk.

I don't consider whiskey to be morally wrong either.

Finally, your arguments could work just as well for sexuality in general. By the arguments you used, you could also say that because adultery, pornography, harlotry, homosexuality, and like vileness are wicked, we should all practice strict celibacy. This is, of course, absurd, but I would argue that it is the final result of that foundational mindset.

About 30 min after posting this, I came back and changed a few places to be more sensible/prudent.

Thanks so much for answering me. First of all, according to my knowledge, wine is by definition alcoholic. So if we are considering whether alcohol is biblically permissible, even a small amount of allowed alcohol content should decide that. Second, I question your authorities on wine flavor. I think it would be safe to guess that if they are arguing that Jesus made non-alcoholic wine, they have probably have hardly (if ever) tasted wine or any other alcoholic beverage. So, in their stead, I propose a couple of (in my opinion) more reliable authorities. 1. My father is an amateur student of taste (kind of like you with tacos). To him, sweet, fruity, wine is gross. Now you might say that's personal preference. But if it is considered with regard to the preference of society in general, the more expensive the wine, the better it ought to taste (right?). Well, more expensive wine does not tend toward sweetness, but is at least an even mixture of the dry (bitter) and the fruity (sweet). Good reasons to drink alcohol: 1. It is medicinally useful (I Tim 5:23), 2. It can rejoice the heart, 3. It can calm the mind and soul. *According to John MacArthur, back in the day, after people crushed their grapes, they did two things. boiled most of it into a jelly (later to be mixed with water and drunk) and the rest was dranked (i know, I know,) right away. Good tasting beverages was supposedly preferred over alcohol, and if the wine that was in liquid state became alcoholic, it was drank right away or disposed. If any of it got to the 4-7 percent (like some wines now) it was suitable only for the 'drunkards', and not for upstanding citizens. But, he could be wrong.* Beer was drunk from cradle to grave by the Puritans. *So that makes it okay?* I do think that wine is okay for everyday use, and I think that many of the governmental restrictions on it are unnecessary at the least. I'm not sure if it is wise for _any_ age. *Then what's the point of this argument?* I'm pretty sure it isn't in substantial quantities. But I don't think it is morally wrong. I don't consider whiskey to be morally wrong. But I haven't tasted it outside a cake and don't intend to. Finally, your arguments could work just as well for the physical relationships of marriage. By the arguments you used, you could also say that because adultery, pornography, harlotry, homosexuality, and like vileness are wicked, we should all practice strict celibacy. *Who decides how much alcohol is too much? as far as being gay, God says 'don't do other guys', and that's pretty plain. But God doesn't say, 'you can drink wine but not whiskey.' Its a completely different matter*

I'll have to quote you (and myself) in small portions to keep from making this unreadable

To your John MacArthur quote:
I've never really done research on the ancient preparations of wine. I should, and will get back with you when I do.

I'm not sure if it is wise for any age. Then what's the point of this argument?
_I said wise, not morally permissible. For example, it isn't wise to give honey to children under 1 year old because of possible allergic reactions, but it is morally permissible (the Bible doesn't say "you shall not give honey to small children").

Beer was drunk from cradle to grave by the Puritans. So that makes it okay?
The Puritans were very much against drunkenness but they regularly consumed alcohol. That should indicate that drinking is very possible without dissipation. But it certainly doesn't make it necessarily right.

Who decides how much alcohol is too much?
God decides how much alcohol is too much. "And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled with the Spirit," (Eph 5:18). Too much alcohol is the amount that causes drunkenness. Also, people don't generally (if ever) get drunk by accident. You would notice if you were starting to get tipsy and should stop then (if not before).
*as far as being gay, God says 'don't do other guys', and that's pretty plain. But God doesn't say, 'you can drink wine but not whiskey.' Its a completely different matter*
_Well said. In my view, God gives us wine and other alcoholic beverages but says "don't get drunk". To me, that is also plain. Also, I'm sorry, I wrote hastily. Later I edited what I said to be a little clearer. Do try reading it again, if you don't mind. I find no moral issue with whiskey except that it is difficult to _not get drunk with it, the alcohol concentration is so high._

Try looking at it like this: Alcohol is an inanimate object created by God. I think it is reasonable to say that alcohol is not inherently wicked. A bottle of wine cannot sin, but a man with a bottle of wine can sin. Furthermore, a man with giant bowl of banana pudding, a gun, or a very (very) large plate of tacos can sin (i.e. gluttony or murder). This does not make banana pudding, tacos, or guns bad. It just shows that humans can sin with most anything. I would argue that alcohol is the same. Alcohol is guiltless but man is guilty. Alcohol can be used for excellent purposes but also for terrible ones. With temperance (in the sense of self-control), there should be no problem with someone drinking a reasonable amount of alcohol.

I should make clear that I don't think that personal abstinence from alcohol is wrong. I understand very well that it can be a huge temptation to people and they should do all in their power to avoid the sin of drunkenness and its results. I'm simply arguing that alcohol is allowed by God and may be enjoyed with a clear conscience by Christians.

Epic response. Precisely my thoughts. :)

Or as Peanut Butter Gamer says: "Video games don't cause violence, people do!"

Or as Peanut Butter Gamer says: "Video games don't cause violence, people do!"

But, just like alcohol, it can be used the wrong way. OR, some can have terrible content and not be good to do at all! Right? :P :)

Or as Peanut Butter Gamer says: "Video games don't cause violence, people do!"

But, just like alcohol, it can be used the wrong way. OR, some can have terrible content and not be good to do at all! Right? :P :)

I thought we'd covered this. xP

We did, I just couldn't resist. facepalm I don't understand guys sometimes… (no offense intended :P). I took the bait, didn't I?

Taking my helpful comment and trying to start another pointless argument? Smooth, Courtney.

Smooth.

Thanks. :)

Well, there was an error somewhere in that comment, I just couldn't seem to pinpoint it. :P

The error was that video games aren't created directly by God and aren't mentioned in Scripture whereas wine is both….

Sorry, I just had to say that…. :)

I never answered your last reply, so here's my final statement.

I don't think that anyone should drink alcohol. Why? Because it drives people to beat their children, crash their cars, and to do immoral things they otherwise would not do.

And lose there legs on a train track…

I really don't want to be argumentative. Please tell me if I am, and I will stop debating you.
I understand your care and appreciate it. However, drunkenness is what does those terrible things, not simply alcohol. Therefore, I have difficulty seeing how one could make a wooden rule for all mankind simply because some people have a sin problem.

Aight. I see your point, but I have grown weary of this argument, for I am not trolling anymore.

Thanks! Makes perfect sense to me. :) We can't really say that video games are either right or wrong necessarily, because of what you said.

Aight. I see your point, but I have grown weary of this argument, for I am not trolling anymore.

Roger.

@ Courtney: I don't think that was exactly my point, but I'm glad it was helpful anyway. :)

Some people say that when the Bible says "wine," it means grape juice. Then why does Proverbs say not to stare at wine when it sparkles in the cup?

Jesus drank wine; so if you say drinking alcohol is sin, then you're calling Jesus a sinner.

It's a sin to GET DRUNK; but if you drink with moderation, you won't GET DRUNK.

I like your silverfishey.

Tattooing is unlawful in the Ceremonial Law.

Some people say that when the Bible says "wine," it means grape juice. Then why does Proverbs say not to stare at wine when it sparkles in the cup? Jesus drank wine; so if you say drinking alcohol is sin, then you're calling Jesus a sinner. It's a sin to GET DRUNK; but if you drink with moderation, you won't GET DRUNK.

Yes. ^How else do I say it?^

^When I first got on Memverse I enjoyed reading through the discussions and writing my thoughts for myself. Since the TD have been really quiet for such a long time I thought maybe we could try re-hashing some of them together. I'm not completely sure I agree with my old views anymore… but anyway we can dig in and start over. I know there are a lot of new people on the Forums now so maybe we can get some new input! :)^

Sarah B.
(Written: May 11, 2012)
What do you think? Is it okay if you drink beer/wine every now and then? What about tattoos, or the types of movies you watch?

I think it is wrong for a Christian to get drunk. Ephesians 5:18 says, “And do not be filled with wine in which is dissipation [wickedness]; but be filled with the Spirit.” (NKJV)
Why would a Christian (in America) drink liquor anyway? The only reasons I can think of point to not trusting God.

Is it okay to drink liquor for medicinal reasons? I think this is something to be worked out in the consciences of those who have to make the decision. All decisions should be made with prayer. For myself I would say it would be better to trust God with my life and health.

As far tattoos, 1 Corinthians 6:19-21 says, “Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you whom you have from God, and you are not your own?”(NKJV) telling us to take care of our bodies. And in the Old Testament it makes it very clear that tattoos are not pleasing to God. Leviticus 19:28 “You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks on you: I am the LORD.” (NKJV)

And movies: “Keep your heart with all diligence, for out of it spring the issues of life. Put away from you a deceitful mouth, and put perverse lips far from you. Let your eyes look straight ahead, and your eyelids look right before you. Ponder the path of your feet, and let all your ways be established. Do not turn to the right or the left; Remove your foot from evil.” Proverbs 4:23-27
In other words “Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. Resist him, steadfast in the faith,” 1 Peter 5:8-9

Yep, I agree with you. I only have one exception. I think that liquor can be drunk for other reasons than not believing in God. Some people just like it on occasion, and are not addicted to it, or get drunk with it. While we must be very cautious with it, and it is a wise decision for many people not to drink it, I do not believe that it is necessarily sin.

Is it okay to drink liquor for medicinal reasons? . . . For myself I would say it would be better to trust God with my life and health.

If you know liquor will help your health, then it is the means God has provided for you.