Dating vs Courtship.

I don't think it would be less meaningful because it would be said out of a different feeling. If Christian says "Love you" to Bethany and Carissa and they say it to him, that's no different than it would be if he said it to you as his sister. But I do see your point.

My dad would have a problem with it if he saw a guy saying "Love you" to me in a private message (email or otherwise).
He always said, "Avoid all appearances of evil" (1 Thes. 5:2)

shrugs

I'd say it boils down to personal preference. I don't tell girls often that I love them, and when I do I make it clear that I love them as a sister. Getting into the habit of saying such things to people could be good or bad, depending on the person. To stay on the safe side, perhaps it would be best to not make it a habit. Saying that someone is a good friend, or that you appreciate them, or that you are thankful for their influence in your life can mean the same thing, and offer a lot less room for misinterpretation or unintended connotations.

Maybe it would be better to say "Love you, sister/brother".

Something tells me my dad wouldn't buy into that either.

*shrugs* I'd say it boils down to personal preference. I don't tell girls often that I love them, and when I do I make it clear that I love them as a sister.

Or as a joke……

I agree 100% with what you said there!

*shrugs* I'd say it boils down to personal preference. I don't tell girls often that I love them, and when I do I make it clear that I love them as a sister.

Or as a joke......

That too. XD

My dad would have a problem with it if he saw a guy saying "Love you" to me in a private message (email or otherwise). He always said, "Avoid all appearances of evil" (1 Thes. 5:2)

That is the same here.

*shrugs* I'd say it boils down to personal preference. I don't tell girls often that I love them, and when I do I make it clear that I love them as a sister. Getting into the habit of saying such things to people could be good or bad, depending on the person. To stay on the safe side, perhaps it would be best to not make it a habit. Saying that someone is a good friend, or that you appreciate them, or that you are thankful for their influence in your life can mean the same thing, and offer a lot less room for misinterpretation or unintended connotations.

Good thoughts, Sam.

Maybe it would be better to say "Love you, sister/brother".

Why do it at all? It just seems too easy to unintentionally give the wrong impression or be misinterpreted.

Something tells me my dad wouldn't buy into that either.

Why do it at all? It just seems too easy to unintentionally give the wrong impression or be misinterpreted.</blockquote It's not something I encourage. I just don't discourage it either. You bring up some good point about why it might not be the best idea. How are people to know 100% it's not meant in an inappropriate way, unless you say "Now I don't mean this in a romantic way, but..." the first time you say it to them? That would just be weird. 9_9 So while I don't think it's inappropriate, I think there are wiser ways of demonstrating our love to our opposite-gender siblings in Christ.

*shrugs* I'd say it boils down to personal preference. I don't tell girls often that I love them, and when I do I make it clear that I love them as a sister. Getting into the habit of saying such things to people could be good or bad, depending on the person. To stay on the safe side, perhaps it would be best to not make it a habit. Saying that someone is a good friend, or that you appreciate them, or that you are thankful for their influence in your life can mean the same thing, and offer a lot less room for misinterpretation or unintended connotations.

Good thoughts, Sam.

I always said, "There's nothing wrong with my comforting my sister in Christ by reminding her that I'm obeying God's command to love her." I still kind of agree, but you all have brought up some good reasons why that might be a risk not worth taking.

Maybe we could all start using the Greek words for love, since they have four to cover all the meanings of our one word. We could say "I love you" to our family, friends, spouses, and those we love but don't like, each with their own version and no one would misinterpret us!
(They may not understand what we are saying if they haven't studied Greek, though. We'd have to be careful about our tone of voice because they might think that we were offending them in Greek. Perhaps this isn't as good an idea as I thought it was initially.)

LOL! I like the idea! If only it would really work!

Or even special/affectionate nicknames?

Depends on what it is…and if it's used by just them or by others, etc… Cause like I have lots of nicknames and guys call me by my nicknames and it can be done in an affectionate way as a brother and sister and not mean that he likes me…

Why do it in an affectionate way period? ^I'm just throwing questions out for discussion.^

+Romans 12:10+~ Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.

+Psalm 133:1+~ Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!

+Hebrews 13:1+~ Let brotherly love continue.

+1 Thessalonians 5:11+~ Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.

Agreed! I like that you used Scripture… :)

Another thought: Could that not apply then to using affectionate phrases that we talked about previously - "Love you" and "Miss you"? If so, what happened to possible misunderstanding or wrong impressions? Or if not, why not?

I think it does apply, BUT that doesn't mean we have to say those things–especially because there are more prudent ways to obey those verses. However, I do not think it is inappropriate to say those things as long as both parties understand how it is meant. This could be achieved by saying it to multiple people publicly, which would probably happen for people who do that. It shouldn't be too complicated for both parties to understand.

+Proverbs 3:21+~ My son, do not lose sight of these— keep sound wisdom and discretion,
+Proverbs 8:12+~ “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence, and I find knowledge and discretion.

I really don't think "Miss you" is likely to give the wrong impression. (Although really, anything could give the wrong impression.)

+1 Corinthians 14:12+~ So with yourselves, since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, strive to excel in building up the church.

I understand what you're saying, and definitely agree that discretion should be used. I personally just stay away from it to avoid any possibility of giving the wrong impression. As you said though, anything really, could give the wrong impression. ^Sigh What are we coming to?^ :P

My dad would have a problem with it if he saw a guy saying "Love you" to me in a private message (email or otherwise). He always said, "Avoid all appearances of evil" (1 Thes. 5:2)

That is the same here.

=D

Okay, I'm going to go ahead and post this.

The following article is actually a letter I wrote to a friend who believed that when a courtship begins, neither party should be in love. The discussion actually began as a debate regarding whether or not teenagers should be in love. As the debate progressed, I realized that my opponent's objections to it had nothing to do with age or competence; rather, I was faced a philosophy I had never debated before: that love should not come before a relationship. You may now read my response.

Now, the last time we talked about it, I said "Why would I go into a courtship if I'm not in love?", but then I had to leave. So I just want to say some final wrap-up explanations and also perhaps clear up a few things that may have confused you.

​ First of all, I think it is definitely inappropriate for teenagers to have extravagant, romantic dreams–such as thinking about kissing the person, etc. I think that those thoughts are premature. But it is possible to be in love without building castles in the air. When I say "in love", I mean loving someone in a special, unique way and praying about them for marriage–but not with "mushy" dreams. I'm sure I don't even have to say that any sexual attraction is wrong–until you're married.

Your idea of courtship is not the necessary definition of courtship. You said that the first half of courtship should be love-free. This can be the case, but it is not necessarily what courtship means. You can do it either way. Usually the way it works is that the man is in love with the girl, so he courts her. If a man is going to have any interest in courting, he is probably going to have to be in love at least somewhat. I know that just because most people do something doesn't make it right, but think about this: does the Bible say that the relationship must always come before the love? Not at all. Think about Jacob. Why did Jacob work for Rachel? Because he was in love with her–not the other way around. The love came first, and it was the base for the relationship.

This leads me to another thing: to start a relationship without being in love is probably going to be somewhat presumptuous. You're assuming you're going to fall in love with the person and that everything will work out. There might be minor problems that you could work around if you were committed to each other, but if you're not in love, you might dump the person at the slightest difference. Love provides a good foundation for the relationship. Without love, a relationship is like a house without a foundation. It may be easy to build that foundation under it, or it may be hard. You don't know. So I'm not saying relationship-before-love is bad at all, but I'm proving that love-before-relationship is not bad either.

And then, what if things don't work out with the first person you courted? Are you just going to continue courting a bunch of people until you finally end up loving one of them? And if neither party is in love at the beginning of the courtship, what if one falls in love halfway through the courtship and the other never does? Heartbreak. So it's very prudent if both parties are in love at the beginning. That doesn't guarantee that everything will work out perfectly, but there is a lower risk.

You've mentioned the Scripture that says "flee youthful passions". When the Bible says that, it's referring to sinful passions. What if a youth has a passion for God? He does not have to flee that passion. What if a youth has a passion for music? He does not have to flee that passion, as long as he uses the music to glorify God. So this verse is referring to foolish, reckless passions that can arise in youthful hearts. Such passions would include crushes and lust, but not true love. How do we tell the difference? Well, if you're truly in love, you'll be more concerned about their happiness than yours, you'll want to moderate your love so you can respect them and their parents, you'll want to glorify God with them, and I could go on. This is not to say that you'll never make mistakes, but true love is characterized by maturity and the ultimate passion to honor God.

You've also pointed out that if you don't marry your first love, you'll always remember loving them. Well, I know people who did not marry their first love and are very thankful for what God taught them through that love–that's what they remember from it! They learned lessons worth remembering! However, they have absolutely none of their heart stuck with their first love–no lingering feelings whatsoever. And as long as you don't have any of your heart stuck with your first love, so what if you remember that you loved them once? If you do, you probably won't remember the person in particular so much as what God taught you through it. If you marry someone else, all your dreams will come true–just in a different person.

I think one reason you think love before relationship is a bad idea is because you might be love-blind. But a more accurate term would be "crush-blind". A crush is a rash obsession with someone based on your own feelings. Often, a crush will involve loving not the person, but an imagination of the person in your mind. But love is something totally different. If you have love before the courtship, you have observed the person and interacted with them enough to know them well, and the courtship will help to mature your love for them. You may think that love will prevent you from assessing them well enough, but if you're in love, you (should) have already assessed them, which can be done by observation and interaction outside of courtship.

So that's why love-before-relationship is entirely Biblical. Now that I have that settled, teenage love will be easy to tie in: If you love as a teen, you'll have plenty of time to consider and pray about the person before marrying them; then you can marry them at a good young age and get an earlier start at glorifying God with your adult life and starting a family. Of course, make sure you're ready for marriage before you enter it, but just having love in your heart is something different. It can be a motivator for teenagers to mature and prepare. Now, I do not believe that teenagers should be on a constant lookout for someone to love–that could have pretty bad effects. That is not the goal of the teenage years; however, God often lays a specific person on a teenager's heart, in which case it would be fine to go ahead and love them wisely.

Teenage love is nothing like dating. Dating means you have feelings and relationships with lots of people before marriage. Teenage love should not be like that (if it is, then there's a big problem). Dating often associates you romantically with a person even after you're done dating them. Love should not have that effect if things don't work out.

I'm not trying to convince you that you should be in love. I'm not saying that it's better for teenagers to be in love than not. I'm not saying relationship-before-love is a bad thing. I'm just saying that doing things the other way is not bad either. There is nothing in Scripture that even hints that relationship must come before love–yes, it did happen sometimes; but it happened the other way too (equality)–or that it's wrong to pray about a specific person as you prepare for marriage. Anyone–not just teenagers, but anyone who is in love–must be careful to make sure their feelings respect God and their object. However, I believe that teenagers must set stricter standards. The point is: one cannot make a good case from Scripture that teenage love is inappropriate or unwise, as long as it's done properly. If you don't believe God wants you to be in love as a teen or before you've begun a courtship, then don't. But don't judge others who can do it in good conscience. I respect your preference, even if you think it is wiser than the other way–just as long as you don't think the other way is bad, which is low-grade legalism (applying your own standards to everyone).

Okay; for anyone who believes divorce is appropriate before the marriage has been consummated, I have proof otherwise. When you get married, you make a vow. And the only condition to that vow is that your spouse does not have a lust affair–in which case, the covenant is broken; then it's your choice whether or not to renew the covenant by staying together. But any other reason for divorce breaks a vow, which is sin. However, it is even more sinful to divorce after the consummation, because that is also adultery. So I think that before consummation, it might not be adultery as long as neither of them marry someone else–because if God has joined two people, they cannot be separated in His eyes except under His standards. A friend of mine also pointed out that marriage is not a contract, but a covenant. Now, if you just allowed an authority to pronounce you married and agreed to that, without actually making any vows, then divorce before consummation would not be breaking vows or adultery–but it would still be divorce, which God specifically says He hates whether the marriage was consummated or not.

Just for discussion purposes, would you say that it is a sin to divorce if your husband continually beats you, your kids, and threatens their lives with things such as knives (a sad picture, I know, but true for thousands of people)? Of course, you would go to the police, but would this constitute moral grounds to leave the marriage for safety? Do you separate out of terror but still claim that your marriage is valid? It certainly is an explicit, over-the-line violation of God's command for husbands. What would you say?

I'd say the wife should take the kids and flee, but should not divorce him–so she might still be an example ("how do you know if you will save your husband?") without endangering herself. Plus, the Jesus said that the only reason we can divorce is if our spouse commits sexual immorality–not just any immorality toward us.

Here are the reasons why I believe that romance teasing is inappropriate. I'm not saying these things are inevitable, but–being that romance teasing has absolutely no benefits–it is foolish in light of the abundant danger.

1) Misunderstandings both on the part of the people and outsiders.
2) Humiliation.
3) Feelings being induced the wrong way.
4) Hurt.
5) Disrespect both to parents and to the people.
6) Just plain rudeness of mocking someone's heart.
7) Flirting.
8) Losing sight of the gravity of love.
9) Awkwardness in the friendship of the two people.
10) Friction.

Um, friction also happens when you walk. And sit. And breathe, since there's such a thing as air friction…

Ummm…should I stop breathing now?

Um, friction also happens when you walk. And sit. And breathe, since there's such a thing as air friction... Ummm...should I stop breathing now?

Logical fallacy: equivocation! :-P

Um, friction also happens when you walk. And sit. And breathe, since there's such a thing as air friction... Ummm...should I stop breathing now?

Logical fallacy: equivocation! :-P

Sign hovers in the air reading: WARNING: THIS IS +NOT+ A NORMAL!

the "This-is-not-a-Normal" alarm blares

And yes, everyone, I am aware that these problems can be caused by other things discussed here, but in those cases, the things are good for us and such consequences will only come if we are careless. But romance teasing is itself carelessness. For the other things we've talked about that could have these consequences, much good can come from them if we are on guard. For romance teasing, no good can come from it (except by unforeseen chance, as is the case with any wrong thing)–so the only possibilities are either that nothing will happen or that something bad will happen. That's carelessness.

Here are the reasons why I believe that romance teasing is inappropriate. I'm not saying these things are inevitable, but--being that romance teasing has absolutely no benefits--it is foolish in light of the abundant danger. 1) Misunderstandings both on the part of the people and outsiders. 2) Humiliation. 3) Feelings being induced the wrong way. 4) Hurt. 5) Disrespect both to parents and to the people. 6) Just plain rudeness of mocking someone's heart. 7) Flirting. 8) Losing sight of the gravity of love. 9) Awkwardness in the friendship of the two people. 10) Friction.

1) Misunderdstandings happen anyway. Sometimes the teasing gives the people a chance to talk about what there thinking.
2) Humiliation is part of growing up. You learn a lot from falling down.
3) Hmmm… maybe. Or maybe it could help open your eyes to possibilities you were blind to.
4) I laugh really hard most of the time.
5) Not exactly sure about this one… confused
6) If the person is extremely sensitive maybe it would be taken that way.
7) :-)
8) Maybe… but not everything about love is gravity. There's a time to laugh!
9) Awkwardness is fun… sometimes! Live would be so boring with out it!
10) Only if the person teased takes it too personally.

I really like what Seth said about the subject of romantic teasing.

Well I'll just make one comment for the time being. :) The only distinction that made between 'normal' teasing and 'guy-girl' teasing is that some people may be offended or find it inappropriate. So, this is not a 'right or wrong' issue, it's a 'is this causing someone to stumble' issue. I'm not sure if that was your intent or not, so some clarification may be helpful. *EDIT* I ususally suggest that if the one being teased doesn't want to be teased, then they respectfully but firmly ask the teaser to stop. If they don't, then the teased may want to go to the authorities, explain the scenario, and ask them to put a stop to it. If the teased is not willing to do this, then is is possible that they should just stay quiet and accept the teasing, which likely isn't actually bothering them too much (whatever they may say) if they're not willing to take steps to prevent/stop it. Not saying this is the best thing to do in every situtation, but I generally use it as a starting point.

Hey Sarah, just saying, but I've had this happen to me before, and the awkwardness is not fun; it makes the friendship harder for a while. This is a different kind of awkwardness. An awkwardness that should not have to be there.

Just wanting to understand your view on this better - what do you see as the point in "romantic teasing"?

You know, every relationship is different, just like ever person is different. That's why this isn't necessarily a right or wrong thing.

I'm very sorry that it was awkward for you. The person who was teasing should have been more sensitive to your feelings - I'm not saying they were right… but I don't think they were 'wrong' either, unless you asked them to stop and they didn't.

Another question (Hope you don't mind :) - is God glorified through "romantic teasing"?

Jsyk, I am not basing what I believe off of past experience.

Well, is God pleased with teasing at all? I don't think He would care so much as long as there was peace and harmony between people. There are things like this that are in our lives for us to work through and grow.

EDIT There's a time to laugh and joke, and a time to be serious.

Well, I was just thinking of 1 Cor. 10:31 where it says that whether we eat or drink or whatever we do, we are to do it all to the glory of God. I would say that teasing can be done rightly, in all good (and obvious) humor. We can still glorify God in our humor. But some humor is inappropriate. Why do we say crude jokes are inappropriate, but romantic teasing toward two people is fine? What are we reflecting through it?

If you think it is inappropriate then there is a way to handle it. The Bible says, go to that person and talk to them; if they don't listen take someone else.
However, I think good can come from teasing. It really depends on the resever of the teasing, and the giver… they can handle it well, or handle it badly. Teasing can be done in love. Even romantic teasing.

When there is a disagreement there are almost always two people in the wrong.

How can romantic teasing be done in love?

How can romantic teasing be done in love?

With all the best of interest for the other person in mind! ;)
Like I said, a lot of good can come from a little teasing. It can help people think about things more… it can start good conversation.

How can romantic teasing be done in love?

With all the best of interest for the other person in mind! ;) Like I said, a lot of good can come from a little teasing. It can help people think about things more... it can start good conversation.

Teasing someone about someone else is in the best interest of them?
It can help people think about things more…like, the person they are being teased about?

Really is gone now

Yes!
I don't think you are going to understand this, and that's completely okay - because we aren't all the same.
It can make them to think more seriously about how they are carrying on their friendship with the other person. Maybe they need to examine themselves, and if there should/or shouldn't be more to it (some people need a hint).
And if there is nothing to it they can check with the other person and make sure they don't have any problems with it. Then just laugh!

This is a response to Sarah's rebuttals, which can be read here: +https://www.memverse.com/forums/theology-discussions/topics/dating-vs-courtship?page=22#post-317149+

1) Well then let's go on murdering sprees, because death happens anyway!
2) Again, that doesn't mean we need to do stupid things that are likely to humiliate people.
3) If someone thinks you and another person are a good match and want to open your eyes to it, they need to point it out in a serious way, not by teasing.
4) Maybe you do, but it could cause hurt.
5) You might not know the standards of that person and of their parents, so why risk disrespecting them for no good reason?
6) It's rude to make fun of such a serious area in someone's life – period.
7) Yeah.
8) But the time to laugh is not when you're considering a potential person – or at least that's not what you should be laughing about.
9) But the two people could always have this awkwardness between them because someone else made ignoramus comments from the peanut gallery.
10) No! If someone is teased once and they blow up, that's taking it too seriously, but if the teaser has been asked to stop and refuses, the person being teased has every right to be angry.

I will again clarify that I understand that these consequences could come from other things that have been discussed here–but in most of those cases, the things will only happen if we are careless. Those things are good for us as long as we're careful. Romance teasing has no benefits whatsoever, and to do it is to be careless.

Do you own It's (not that) Complicated? If so, based on your last comment, I would encourage you to read and think on chapter 10 - pages 179-190.

*This is a response to Sarah's rebuttals, which can be read here:* +https://www.memverse.com/forums/theology-discussions/topics/dating-vs-courtship?page=22#post-317149+ 1) Well then let's go on murdering sprees, because death happens anyway! 2) Again, that doesn't mean we need to do stupid things that are likely to humiliate people. 3) If someone thinks you and another person are a good match and want to open your eyes to it, they need to point it out in a serious way, not by teasing. 4) Maybe you do, but it could cause hurt. 5) You might not know the standards of that person and of their parents, so why risk disrespecting them for no good reason? 6) It's rude to make fun of such a serious area in someone's life -- period. 7) Yeah. 8) But the time to laugh is not when you're considering a potential person -- or at least that's not what you should be laughing about. 9) But the two people could always have this awkwardness between them because someone else made ignoramus comments from the peanut gallery. 10) No! If someone is teased once and they blow up, that's taking it too seriously, but if the teaser has been asked to stop and refuses, the person being teased has every right to be angry. I will again clarify that I understand that these consequences could come from other things that have been discussed here--but in most of those cases, the things will only happen if we are careless. Those things are good for us as long as we're careful. Romance teasing has no benefits whatsoever, and to do it is to be careless.

1) Sometimes a little bit of teasing can clear up misunderdstandings. The person who is being teased can clear up a lot of misunderdstandings by just laughing and saying, "Hey guys- we're not together, okay?"
2) It doesn't have to be humiliating at all. But if it is it can be resolved by request… just ask that they please stop.
3) Sometimes that's really not a nice way to do it. Really, it depends on the people. If I said to my sister, "I could see you with this guy." she would freak out and avoid him as much as possible, but if I teased her she would laugh and maybe even consider it a bit. (This has never happened, I just know how it would be if it did…)
4) There are ways to take care of it if it is offensive, and some people are just bad at taking teasing at all.
5) Not if you are really good friends with them! I wouldn't recommend just teasing someone you just met. 0.o
7) There's a time to laugh, and a time to be serious. Maybe that poor person just needs a reason to laugh it off.
8) But at this point it's not like that! And even if it was, I certainly wouldn't mind! I imagine I would like a good reason to laugh at myself for being crazy about a guy.
9) I'm talking about good friends teasing their good friends to their face. And if the victim of the tease dosen't like it they can stop it by request.
10) once again, this is teasing between good friends who would be more familiar with how the other person handles a tease.

Do you own _It's (not that) Complicated_? If so, based on your last comment, I would encourage you to read and think on chapter 10 - pages 179-190.

Hmmm… I don't think I can agree with that. Unless what Nathan dose with helping people who are in love is wrong too.

1) If there was no teasing to begin with, there probably wouldn't be misunderstandings! If two people are together, that's not the public's business–but if a friend expresses concern, or if the people think there might be a misunderstand, they can always clarify it themselves. No teasing necessary. A more minor concern is that they wouldn't be believed when they said there was nothing.
2) Why risk humiliating them at all, when nothing good comes out of it even if they're not humiliated?
3) Well, it should definitely not be a public thing, but don't make it a grave, deep, crucial matter. Have the perspective of "hey, who knows, maybe down the road…" in a passing way. And if you think the person will be upset by that, just don't do it. If you tease, it's just as likely that they'll think of the person as not being a possibility. The point is: make it as lighthearted as possible, but don't joke about it–as it's not something to joke about.
4) Again, why not just avoid the risk of hurting someone with something stupid at all? Don't do it to find out who it will hurt and who it won't, because then the people who will be hurt… will be hurt. If they're not hurt by it, no one's going to be benefited by it; that's why I say it's foolish because it could cause hurt.
5) Well, you'll know their standards if you say "Hey, do you and your parents mind if I tease you about this person?" I'll grant you that one.
7) ^This one is apparently resolved? I think what you said on #7 last time was intended to be put in #8.^
8) It IS to that point as soon as the teasing begins–whether that's the intention or not. And being in love is not something to laugh at yourself for! There can be lighthearted aspects to it, but it's not something to make fun of. So you can still "laugh it off" without teasing.
9) Okay; that clarification does help. So in that case, #9 wouldn't apply–but the others would.
10) Then again, #10 wouldn't apply in that situation–but there are still abundant dangers.</blockquote>

Of course God can make good come out of any stupid thing, even sin–but there are better ways to achieve those ends.