Dating vs Courtship.

tries hard not to say "didn't think you had any", but fails

Didn't think you had any. :P

I would rephrase that - If we're overly prudent, we might get hurt; therefore, we will simply be prudent enough to get our non-negotiables in a spouse.

I agree with that - it's not always that simple, just to choose to love someone. Time enough to be drawn to the other person of their own free will is an important factor.

I agree with that too - it's just that that is not the way a lot of Christian young ladies think. They think (and I thought this too) that it's just as simple as finding someone with all the characteristics on their list, and that if the guy doesn't have enough of them, she decides he's not good enough for her. I agree - they can work it out, but that's not the way it usually happens, I don't think. In courtship, they have mastered their emotions enough to reject someone they're in love with, if they're not good enough for them.

In the betrothal that I've been learning about, there is a lot less potential for hurt and mistakes. The father, with God's guidance, carefully evaluates the young man who wants to marry his daughter, so that by the time the young man gets to the daughter, the father has already made sure he had all the daughter's non-negotiables. The daughter trusts her father and the Lord, so she can pray about it and make a prudent, and much faster decision.

Exactly my thoughts. :)

Hi, Courtney! I am sorry if I am jumping into this conversation or am seeming intrusive, but I had a quick question regarding what has been said. There are, as you mentioned, absolute non-negotiables that every Christian should uphold (such as that the spouse be God-fearing and not a "check in the box" Christian or an unbeliever) and over which every Christian should be prepared to refuse a potential partner. On that point, I agree with you completely! Still, I would argue that, generally speaking, thousands upon thousands of men hold to these non-negotiables. There are, in my experience, many individuals who would hold to a desire to serve God, raise a family, cherish their spouse, and fulfill the other absolute requirements that God lays out for marriage.

This being so, it seems as though you are saying that the first suitor who approaches your father with these non-negotiables automatically deserves (and has permission) to marry you. It seems like, for true Christians holding these principles, it becomes a "first-come, first-serve" thing in which you have very little ability to distinguish the (very real) differences between Christian suitors who desire to court you. Would this view, in your opinion, be correct, or would you classify it in some different way?

Just in my opinion, it seems that, when a man seeks to court a woman, it is probably the best method to set up various checkpoints. The man needs to pass a variety of tests (After all, and I think you can agree, this is, often the most important decision an individual will make (besides the decision to serve Christ)). I think that the non-negotiables work best as the first test, the gate through which EVERY suitor has to enter. You can think of it as a plane when it goes through a checklist. A man steps out on the tarmac and checks whether the wheels are functional and whether the flaps are adjustable, but he first needs to be sure he is inspecting a PLANE! :)

In a similar way, the father needs to know that the suitor holds to the daughter's non-negotiables, but the process should not stop there. That a man is a Christian and is interested in a particular woman does not mean he is the right person to marry the woman. With the deep guidance of the Father, the woman should look at the young man and be sure that there is nothing in his life that might cause serious problems later on (things not relating to the non-negotiables; things such as serious incompatibility). There is no perfect person, I agree, and no woman should expect the perfect Prince Charming to come through the door (a mistake that has hurt many young women). This continuation of my earlier analogy might sound funny, but I believe that you do not want the plane of marriage to crash because of some unknown and unresolved issue. The courtship ought to go through a deeper inspection, one that allows for the woman to engage in extensive prayer and to understand who it is that she is going to spend the rest of her life with.

I hope that makes sense. I would, though, like to know your thoughts on this. I appreciate and respect your comments. :)

Sorry, this is off topic… but when I read these verses I thought of this thread, for some reason. Just had to post it.

1 Corinthians 13:1-7
"Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal. And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up; does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil; does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth; bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."

@Courtney: There may be less room for hurt outside of marriage; but there's more room for hurt after the marriage is "fatal." As for your second paragraph: the problem would be with the people, not the method.

@Sir Walter: I agree; and that was very well put.

@Sarah: Are you testing us or something?

http://truelovedoesntwait.com/the-path-to-marriage/the-binding-covenant-of-betrothal/what-is-betrothal/

http://truelovedoesntwait.com/the-path-to-marriage/readiness/little-miss-perfect/

Something my dad said last night is that the purpose of courtship/betrothal is not supposed to be to find the perfect spouse, it is to get married. Marriage is where you become perfect.

Thank you for sharing, Jimmy! I would disagree with one thing in your first paragraph - there might be thousands upon thousands of men who hold to the basic non-negotiables of Christians, but it's not like every one of those is going to be in a race to get to a single girl's dad to get permission to marry her. Not every man who has her comparatively short list of non-negotiables is going to be attracted to her. Also, each girl will have different convictions which will cut down on her pool of possible suitors quite a bit. For example, I personally have strong convictions in the areas of quiver-full and homeschooling, and my non-negotiables will be added to accordingly.

I'm exploring in new territory here. I have a problem with your saying "first come, first serve". It's not that easy. It's a "first come, first pass Daddy's scrutiny" basis. There aren't that many guys who have my non-negotiables who are going to want to court me. The difference is that I am not going to be distinguishing the differences. My dad is. By the time I have any clue about what is going on, Daddy will have approved the guy to marry me if I consent. If I consent. I don't think it is going to be like my dad introducing him to me and saying ''this is the one I've chosen for you to marry". I think I'll have time to pray about it, and my dad will be just requesting me to consider marrying this young man, since he had the character enough to pass my dad's tests. My dad won't be trying to make me fall in love with someone, it will be my choice, ultimately.

But I can trust my dad to give me away to someone I will love. My dad loves me too much to give me away to someone he hasn't examined strictly enough. My mom said that if someone has my non-negotiables, she thinks I will love him. I don't think it is that hard to make your feelings do what you want.

But what needs to be done, besides the non-negotiables? Sure, the checklist for the plane works fine, but those are the non-negotiables we're talking about. You wouldn't let a plane go into the air without them. The non-negotiables don't make a suitor a suitor, they make the suitor suitable for marriage.

The non-negotiables will include everything that would or could cause serious incompatibility with the young woman. It will include everything which, if a young man did not have, I would absolutely refuse to marry him. I will try to not have my expectations too high, but there are certain specific things that MUST be there in a future spouse. And it's not just relating to Christianity. There will be things in my non-negotiables to do with every area of my convictions. The non-negotiable inspection is the deepest inspection needed. This is my definition of the non-negotiables.

Yes, your comment made sense, and I hope mine will too. :)

@Courtney: There may be less room for hurt outside of marriage; but there's more room for hurt after the marriage is "fatal." As for your second paragraph: the problem would be with the people, not the method. @Sir Walter: I agree; and that was very well put. @Sarah: Are you testing us or something?

You're not getting my point. As I said to Jimmy, the non-negotiable inspection by the father is the deepest inspection needed. It will include everything that would be necessary in order for the young man to gain permission to marry me. There wouldn't be the room for hurt outside the marriage, because my father did it instead of me. There wouldn't be the room for hurt inside the marriage, because my father would do it as thoroughly as I needed, having understood my convictions beforehand.

http://truelovedoesntwait.com/general-marriage-issues/purposes-of-marriage/fleeing-fornication/fleeing-fornication-an-open-letter/

Very relevant.

We should never have any sexual feelings for anyone until we're married to that person. Ever.

The thing is, unless you either love someone for a long time or get to know them much better, you likely won't truly love that person, but your fantasy imagination of that person.

If the goal of betrothal is just to get married, then for me personally, forget it. I don't want to just marry anybody; I want to marry someone I know will be a good match for me without having to work out a ton of complications after we get married.

We should never have any s*xual feelings for anyone until we're married to that person. Ever. The thing is, unless you either love someone for a long time or get to know them much better, you likely won't truly love that person, but an your imagination of that person.

Why did you censor that word?

didn't write it for fear MV has a program that censors and throws off people!

Thanks, Noah. Good point.

You agree with me?

.... You agree with me?

I don't know if its possible….

You're right. We shouldn't.

But we do.

It's a fact of human nature. We shouldn't think we're stronger than we are. The sin nature is very, very strong, infiltrating everything we do. We won't be free from it until Christ returns. Thus, lust is natural. Try as we might to overcome it, we won't be able to completely. We should do everything we can to limit our sin nature's opportunities to lust. Better safe than sorry.

That sentence makes a lot of sense to me. I'm not sure exactly how to answer that. I'll think about it. But what you seem to be saying is, you have to love someone for a long time, and know them well, in order to truly love them. Well, I have two things to say: (1) Right now, I love my future husband. This may sound silly, but it's true. I am loving him by doing my best to guard my heart. My love is building up over time. (2) What about parents with their children? The second that baby comes into the world, the parents love that baby with an irrational love. They wouldn't ever trade it for a different baby. How could they love them so much? They might have loved them for a long time, but they don't know them well at all. Yet their love will never let go, now that they've seen that baby.

I think that is much the way it might be with betrothal. I think you will love that person if they have your non-negotiables and your parents have approved your marriage. Besides, marriage is for becoming perfect. Marriage is for your love to build up over time. It's an uphill process, in both ways. Uphill as in your love is building up, and uphill as in you are growing in every relationship involved. Love's high point is not at the wedding. Love's high point is years and years into the marriage, as you have grown perfect with each other, and learned to love each other better.

You shouldn't just marry anybody. That's what the non-negotiables are for. The standard isn't non-existent, it's just not as strict in finding a perfect spouse. And wouldn't it be better to marry someone who has your non-negotiables, and become a good match through marriage; than to find a good match many years later, while impatience is growing, discontentment is threatening, and your standards are getting lower over time?

Everyone is going to have complications in marriage. One of marriage's purposes is to grow perfect. Besides, if you have your non-negotiables right, you will only have complications over little things which don't matter. That will help you grow.

:) I like this discussion.

I'm a 16-year-old guy and I generally don't struggle with lust. I'm not saying it's never happened–it has–but it's not a common struggle for me. And we can overcome it if we try hard enough–God never promises that we will; but it is possible. And even if it wasn't, it's irrelevant to courtship.

Also, love for a baby and love for a spouse are two different things. You love the baby because… well, it's your baby; you worked hard to deliver it; it's the fruit of your marriage; and I could go on. Totally different than love for a spouse.

I like it too!

Why is lust irrelevant to courtship? Also, I have an issue with you're saying that you should never feel "sexual feelings" for anyone unless you're married to them. Is noticing a girl is pretty considered "sexual feelings"?

And anyway, remember who you are: a human being, made by God. God made you to feel that way. Yes, your "feelings", may be distorted by lust, but all in all, the feeling is not bad. Being attracted to an attractive person is not bad in and of itself. How you act upon the feeling is what determines what is wrong or not.

I just watched a very good message, and I learned something new, so I'm going to change the first part of my comment.

We are free from the sin nature, (dead to sin, alive to God; Rom. 6). We are freed from the power of sin, but not the presence. Thus, we will be tempted, and we should do what we can to make sure we're not placed in such a situation.

I'm a 16-year-old guy and I generally don't struggle with lust. I'm not saying it's never happened--it has--but it's not a common struggle for me. And we can overcome it if we try hard enough--God never promises that we will; but it is possible. And even if it wasn't, it's irrelevant to courtship. Also, love for a baby and love for a spouse are two different things. You love the baby because... well, it's your baby; you worked hard to deliver it; it's the fruit of your marriage; and I could go on. Totally different than love for a spouse. I like it too!

Well, that's fine. It's not a common struggle for everyone. And I disagree with that - we are free from the sin nature, but we will always be tempted. We shouldn't think we're stronger than we are. The prudent man foresees the evil and hides himself. We shouldn't be unwise and place ourselves in a situation that is tempting.

That's true, but it proves that you don't have to love someone for a long time or know them well in order to truly love them. Even if you haven't loved a spouse for a long time, and even if you don't know them that well, you love him/her because…well, it's your husband/wife; you've prepared for a marriage with them for a lot of your life; your parents love you and you can trust them to do good things for you in that relationship; it's the fruit of God working in both of your lives; and I could go on. Even though the loves are different, you can use the same concept.

That was a very practical response. Thank you.

I would say that lust isn't irrelevant to courtship, because that any time you are in that kind of relationship, temptation is inevitable in that area.

That was a very practical response. Thank you. I would say that lust _isn't_ irrelevant to courtship, because that any time you are in that kind of relationship, temptation is inevitable in that area.

I would say the same. While physical attraction shouldn't be your focus when looking for/evaluating a potential spouse, I don't believe it is wrong to notice a person's physical attractivness. To lust after them? Wrong. But to me, a lot of times, conservative Christians try to shy away from any sort of comment on physical beauty, thinking it's worldly. While that argument has some ground, let's not forget that God Himself notices human beauty: it's talked about a lot in the Bible. Job's daughters, Issac's wife Rebekah, Abigail the wife of Nabal, and Esther were all called beautiful. And David, Saul, and Absolom were all said to be handsome men.

I agree with that. Though inward beauty is so much more important, God did create physical beauty as well. So it must be good. :)

Lust is irrelevant to courtship because it can come–and the temptation probably will come–with or without courtship. Same with dating and betrothal. The temptation is common; it's going to come to us; and if we think that this betrothal thing is going to block it, we're fooling ourselves. However, we can control it; so if we lust while courting, we alone are to blame; the method has nothing to do with it. I can back up both of the last two sentences with 1 Corinthians 10:13.

Here's the conclusion I've come to: If the people struggle with discrimination due to negotiable matters, betrothal is better. But if the people understand that they should not discriminate and refuse to do so, courtship is better–that way they know what to expect and can prepare to adjust. Agreed?

THEMATIC ELEMENTS ALERT; PG-13
And thinking someone is beautiful/handsome is not sexual. I think flowers are beautiful; does that mean I'm lusting after them? I think some cars look really cool. Does that mean I'm sexually attracted to them? No; it would be abominable if I was sexually attracted to those things–or any person.

Yes, I agree that lust can come, and the temptation will probably come, with or without courtship. But courtship makes it worse. You're spending so much time with this other person - not one on one, but close to it - I think the temptation will be a lot stronger that way. I don't think betrothal will block the temptation, but since we won't be spending nearly as much time with that person until we are married, or pledged to be married, the danger won't be nearly so great. At least that is what I'm starting to think.

I think that I agree, pretty much. But I think that if your second sentence is true, if the people understand that they should not discriminate and refuse to do so, you're almost going back to the basis of betrothal. At least, one of the major points of betrothal is that young ladies' standards are too high, and you need to only focus on the non-negotiables. Non-negotiables is understanding that you should not discriminate due to negotiable matters and refusing to do so. So you're taking out one of the main differences between courtship and [my idea of] betrothal.

Okay; here's what I'll do. Almost all the young couples in our church have done it through courtship. I will ask them tomorrow if that strengthened temptation to lust and report to you the results.

I think courtship should be something like this: The people commit ahead of time not to discriminate; then they court and learn a ton of stuff about each other. That way there's no shock factor and they're much, much less likely to have arguments get in the way of their love soon after they marry.

You two are still making this uneccesarily complicated to me, so I'll explain my view of how courtship works (from a guy's perspective, of course), and you two can explain yours.

1. Me being of an appropriate age and having the means to support a wife are a given, in this situation.

2. I find a girl I am attracted to. For me, this girl will not only be cute, but will be a Christian, hopefully a homeschooler, and will be someone I am already close enough to that I can determine that she is a Godly woman.

3. I pray about her. Before I do anything else, I need to be sure this isn't a passing thing. I need to pray, and look to God for guidiance. I also talk to my parents, and gain their advice as well. If I feel that He is leading my heart to this girl…

4. I approach her father. He's the one that I go to before talking to the girl I like. Of course, I'll be scared out of my mind ( the teenage mind has a talent for imagination, especially when it comes to your own embarassment), but before I can touch the treasure, I gotta go by the Guardian. If he evaluates me, and consents to my pursuing a relationship with her, I can then approach her with the question. If she agrees…

5. We begin the courtship phase, where we both get to know one another better. This will mostly be in group settibgs (i.e church, gatherings of friends, time spent with either family, etc), but I do believe that certain times of aloneness can be good for serious conversation, albeit there might be a brother or other chaperone watching from a distance.

6. If, at the end of the courtship, we both believe that God is leading us to spend the rest of our human existances together, we get married. :) If not (as I've said, the teenage imagination is amazing, I've imagined being rejected so many times…), we both can go our separate ways knowing that we did this the right way, even if our marriage wasn't God's will.

Now, I'm not saying that you should expect the final scenario to happen, only that it is a real possibility in any case, whether it be dating (the old kind, like your parents did that LED to marriage), courting, or betrothal.

THEMATIC ELEMENTS ALERT; PG-13 And thinking someone is beautiful/handsome is not sexual. I think flowers are beautiful; does that mean I'm lusting after them? I think some cars look really cool. Does that mean I'm sexually attracted to them? No; it would be abominable if I was sexually attracted to those things--or any person.

We did crack up when we say this…

Made us laugh too

Pretty good, Sam!

We know we're making this unnecessarily complicated–and we're enjoying it!

That won't quite work. See, they'll have gotten married successfully by courtship, so they'll have nothing but good things to say about it. Probably. I think.

Yes, but if they decide not to marry, the hurt will already be done.

And arguments should never get in the way of love. Ever. Love is a choice.

That won't quite work. See, they'll have gotten married successfully by courtship, so they'll have nothing but good things to say about it. Probably. I think. Yes, but if they decide not to marry, the hurt will already be done. And arguments should never get in the way of love. Ever. Love is a choice.

Hurt from anyone is unavoidable, even from best friends and family. Avoiding hurt is a good method of survival, but trying to escape any risk of the possibilty of pain will only keep you from many, many, good things.

I didn't have any problem with this until a couple months ago. :P My main problem is that IF you don't get married, the harm will already be done.

On the parentheses in #6 - ouch ouch ouch! Please don't say that! I know I've imagined doing the rejecting more than enough times!!! :P :P

And your final sentence - I thought courtship was 'getting to know the other person with the INTENTION of marriage'?

Here's how I thought courtship would work for me (here you get a girl's perspective):

1. Me being of an appropriate age is a given in this situation…

2. A guy is attracted to me. Prays, talks with his parents, approaches my father. My father checks down the basics and, if he is good enough, approves his to approach me.

3. I say yes or no, depending on how I like him, and how his character looks from the outside.

4. We get to know each other gradually, and if I don't reject him, and if my father gives the thumbs up, he proposes.

5. We live happily ever after. jk

That's the way I thought it would be. My view is changing, but I'm just exploring. I haven't made up my mind yet.

True. But it's more like harm than hurt. And it's not just hurting the mind or the emotions. It's hurting the heart. Your heart is supposed to be preserved whole for your future spouse. If you spend a whole lot of time with someone with the intention of marriage, and then it doesn't work out, the harm is almost the same as in dating. You've still given them a special place in your heart.

I didn't have any problem with this until a couple months ago. :P My main problem is that IF you don't get married, the harm will already be done. On the parentheses in #6 - ouch ouch ouch! Please don't say that! I know I've imagined doing the rejecting more than enough times!!! :P :P And your final sentence - I thought courtship was 'getting to know the other person with the _INTENTION_ of marriage'? Here's how I thought courtship would work for me (here you get a girl's perspective): 1. Me being of an appropriate age is a given in this situation... 2. A guy is attracted to me. Prays, talks with his parents, approaches my father. My father checks down the basics and, if he is good enough, approves his to approach me. 3. I say yes or no, depending on how I like him, and how his character looks from the outside. 4. We get to know each other gradually, and if I don't reject him, and if my father gives the thumbs up, he proposes. 5. We live happily ever after. jk That's the way I thought it would be. My view is changing, but I'm just exploring. I haven't made up my mind yet.

Yes, marriage is the intention. But, it's good to plan for contingiency. I do believe that such events are the exception though, and not the norm. Ever.

True. But it's more like harm than hurt. And it's not just hurting the mind or the emotions. It's hurting the heart. Your heart is supposed to be preserved whole for your future spouse. If you spend a whole lot of time with someone with the intention of marriage, and then it doesn't work out, the harm is almost the same as in dating. You've still given them a special place in your heart.

I understand. But you can't always prevent something like that from happening. Which is WHY the courtship process exists. To minimize any chance of that happening.

I'm Deadpool.

Why do you think it's good to plan for contingency, if the norm is supposed to be marriage?

I'm Deadpool.

Abigail's Lady Deadpool.

You two gonna be…'seeing'…each other in the future?

I'm Deadpool.

Abigail's Lady Deadpool. You two gonna be...'seeing'...each other in the future?

Absolutely! That is, if she ever signs up for the BB!

Might be more like 'spying' than seeing, though….:(

Courtship just doesn't work out too often. I see what you're saying, though.

Why do you think it's good to plan for contingency, if the norm is supposed to be marriage?

Anything can happen. The girl can figure I'm not as good as she expected, she could believe she's not ready at the last second, she could not like the way I eat, etc. Which is why I hope to know her beforehand, I mean, ideally, you want to marry your best friend, right? Someone you know you could spend your life with. I hope to be close to her before I get permission to court her, so I could say something along the lines of "I know we've been good friends for a long time…and…I was wondering…if you would consider pursuing a relationship with me?", and not "Hey, I just met you…and this is crazy…but here's my number…so, call me maybe?"

Courtship just doesn't work out too often. I see what you're saying, though.

I believe it does. However, I like being prepared,

Perhaps I am over-analytical. I have been so before.

You didn't answer my question. Sure, anything can happen, but why should we prepare for the exception? We shouldn't - the only exception is if we are going to dedicate our life to serving the Lord. 100%.

I don't think I should necessarily marry my best friend. Sure, I want to know my future spouse a little (at least), but marriage is for becoming best friends. You will spend the rest of your life together.

People can get hurt by either method–the same ways and different ways. If you got married after getting to know each other, you would still have plenty of good things to talk about–I know a couple who courted before marrying and still had issues to work out afterwards because of things they didn't know about each other.

And no, arguments should not get in the way of love. But they do. Courtney, I'm not attacking you; but I am pointing out that you keep saying we should use methods that will remove all risks of bad things happening. Here I am doing the same thing; and you're using the same kind of argument that you were disagreeing with in me.

I'm Deadpool.

Abigail's Lady Deadpool. You two gonna be...'seeing'...each other in the future?

Absolutely! That is, if she ever signs up for the BB! Might be more like 'spying' than seeing, though....:(

But I'll have to talk to her about this first….maybe you could do it for me?

Quote from a friend of mine:

Courtship is a very serious thing, because marriage is a serious thing; marriage is for life. Its not just about the feelings, the fireworks, and emotional bubble-ee feeling you get in your stomach when a nice young man show interest in you. If you aren't ready for a relationship, stay away from it all together. The problem with teenagers dating/courting is that it most often isn't serious, isn't for the purpose of marriage, but is just feeling, and gushy fireworks that are VERY naturally and easily ignited. If the relationship is for the purpose of marriage, then good. You see if they're a godly person that shares your convictions, interest, etc. then marry them. A lot a people don't want to get married right away, they want to wait. But the problem with waiting for marriage in a relationship, is that you are opening a door for serious temptation. I know it might be a little weird to hear, discuss, and on my part, talk about it, but it has to be said. In a relationship, between a boy and girl, that physical draw is very strong. God gave us marriage to satisfy and neutralize those passions without committing sin. That's why teen relationships are dangerous. They want to be in a easy enough relationship, but for being so young (immature, even) they just aren't READY for marriage, managing a home (and not to mention, you should be mature enough to be a parent. That happens when you get married). That creates long term relationships, which leads to temptation, which leads to sin. Also, young relationships don't tend to be directed toward quick marriages (because they are young, obviously) thus, the relationships are based almost solely on feelings and affections. The two get emotionally attached, then later realize, as possibility of marriage gets close, that this person is not actually the type of person we would want to be married to. But they are already emotionally attached, and the idea a breaking off the relationship is devastating. These are just some problems with teen relationships.

I strongly recommend you all to read "I kissed dating good-bye" by Paul Washer and "before you meet prince charming" by Sarah Mally.

I'm also saying a lot of this out of conviction and experience. God has blessing me with older siblings who have gone before me in this area, and are joyfully married with God provided spouses.

if you allow yourself you fall in love with someone, and it is one sided, just as they were all saying: you need to guard your heart. You don't know who God will have you marry, and it most very likely might not be the person you've let yourself fall in love with. and vise versa. That young man might become interested in someone else. Then were are you left, in love and alone with a broken heart. So yeah, just be careful, and try not to dwell on it. Protect yourself from those feelings. As was stated before, those feelings come very naturally; they are God given. They don't need to be practiced.

Personally I think courting is the way to go. But about bethoral vs. courting the fact is…either can work/not work. Courting may work in one instance while bethoral may not and vice versa…it just depends.

"And it very most likely might not be the person you fell in love with."

Not necessarily. It could be very likely that the person you like is the person you will marry. Obviously one doesn't know the future though…so one should still be careful.

It's been brought to my attention that maybe it would be better to assume more of a questioning attitude in debates like this, especially as I am not quite sure where specifically I am heading in my beliefs. I'm sorry if I have been overly argumentative. I didn't mean it badly. :) Jsyk.

Yes, you're right. There will be issues by the same ways and different ways. There is no such thing as a perfect marriage or a perfect way to do it.

And yes, you're right. Arguments do get in the way of love. You're right - there is no method that will remove all risks of bad things happening.

Haha! I didn't even realize I was using that same kind of argument. :P

I'm just trying to find the best, most Scriptural way to do it. Is that a bad thing?

What about the way Isaac and Rebekah got married? That was betrothal the way Vaughn Ohlman teaches it. What about Mary and Joseph? I actually think Jacob and Rachel sounds more like courtship than betrothal. In the Bible, it seems to me that it usually focuses on things like the father ''giving" his daughter.

Something I just read on the True Love Doesn't Wait site is that…well, I can't really explain it. Here's the link: http://truelovedoesntwait.com/the-path-to-marriage/readiness/giving-our-daughters-to-imperfect-young-men/