Immortality

I have a couple of questions. Say I go to hell, what happens after I die in hell? I know someone said this earlier, but why would the fire burn forever yet people do not suffer forever? And if hell doesn't last forever then obviously, heaven doesn't either. If we don't stay in heaven forever where do we go after that?

I think you are misunderstanding the annihilationist position, SoulWinner. The flames of hell do not last forever. They only last until everything is consumed, and then they go out of their own accord. And hell (death) DOES last forever. Once the wicked die, they will never live again.

You said: "In Genesis 2, when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the forbidden fruit, "death" means two things. (1) It means their bodies would begin to decay. In the original Hebrew, the phrase is literally, "you will begin to die". (2) Unless they followed God, they would also experience eternal death (annihilation). You said, "Whatever death Adam got, it wasn't annihilation." But it would have been annihilation if he hadn't followed God."
You actually should have put three points in there, Matthew.
1.It means their bodies would begin to decay, and eventually do so to the point of physical death.

1. It means that their souls were plunged into a state of death (see the Ephesians and Colossians texts).
   and 3. It means that their souls would continue in this state of spiritual death (which does not mean non-existence) into hell - eternal death, unless they followed God.
   Whatever Adam could have got, it is not annihilation

You said further on, quoting me, that: "…the punishment of sin does NOT INCLUDE annihilation, so Jesus Christ was NOT annihilated." "…the punishment was eternal damnation." I agree with you completely. This is clearly what the Bible teaches." But I thought your whole argument was that annihilation IS the punishment for sin. As I said in my last comment, please explain. I'm confused.
You went on: ""And so you say "How could He bear an eternal punishment in a finite time?" Simple. He is God, an eternal being. Just as God (the Father) can harbor an infinite wrath, [my comment: He can, but He doesn't. Again, see Psalm 30:5: "his anger endureth but a moment…"] so God (Jesus Christ) can bear an eternal wrath.
But with God, ALL things are possible." But there are some things that God cannot do. For example, God cannot sin. He cannot make us believe in Him if we don't want to. He cannot go against His own laws. One of those laws is that eternity is "un-compressable". Infinity divided by anything equals infinity. God Himself created this law. He must stand by it, or He is an inconsistent God, and if he is an inconsistent God, then the whole universe falls apart."
I did not say that God compressed infinity. Where did you get that idea? I'm saying God (in Christ) endured infinity! Because He is infinite, He can endure infinite wrath!
Also, you quoted Psalm 30. That is clearly (and only) speaking to God's relationship to His saints. If you look at the context, that is undeniable.

You said later: "You cannot find a single verse in the Bible that says that we deserve eternal punishing since we have sinned. Anyway, how do you know that the ascending relationship (boss, government, God) holds?"
Can't find a single verse in the Bible that says that we deserve eternal punishing? Ahem? Excuse me?
What about all the verses that speak of the second death, where the wicked will be punished FOREVER AND EVER, DAY AND NIGHT???????????
That does not speak of eternal punishing??????
I repeat in answer to your last sentence that God is the author of logic, and the laws in His universe are logical. The ascending relationship holds because God made things that way so we could see that punishment is eternal because He is!

Sorry for all the caps and question-marks and etc.
This is a very important issue.

@alex: In Genesis 2, when God said that Adam and Eve would die if they ate the forbidden fruit, "death" means two things. (1) It means their bodies would begin to decay. In the original Hebrew, the phrase is literally, "you will begin to die". (2) Unless they followed God, they would also experience eternal death (annihilation). You said, "Whatever death Adam got, it wasn't annihilation." But it would have been annihilation if he hadn't followed God.

I agree that the word "death" there meant in part that they would one day die physically, but I also think it meant that at that moment they were cut off from God. Put simply, I think that life without God's blessing is not real life, not eternal life, but is eternal death.

Erika - Thanks for the detailed answer of how "death" is used in Scripture! So are you getting your answer from James 2:26? Did you know that (according to Strong's Concordance) the Greek word for death in James 2:26 means physical death, but the Greek word for death in Rom 6:23 can be physical or spiritual death?

Notice: I am now forcing myself to stay off this forum until Saturday afternoon, when the SAT is over….

That is the conditional immortality position.

But you must remember that what fuels the flames in hell is God's wrath. Is God's wrath eternal? Yes. Do those flames ever run out of fuel? No.
So the punishment in hell, provided by those flames, never ends.

It is only logical to conclude (as you pointed out, SoulWinner) that if the punishment in hell is not eternal (though Scripture and logic teach us otherwise) then neither will heaven be eternal.

ALL the verses? I thought there was only one. And anyway, I already explained that. Sorry if you don't accept that, because that's the only explanation I have.

"It is only logical to conclude (as you pointed out, SoulWinner) that if the punishment in hell is not eternal (though Scripture and logic teach us otherwise) then neither will heaven be eternal." You keep saying that! ARRGH!!! :P I said it before, and I will say it again: I believe that the punishment of hell is eternal. That is, once the wicked are dead, they will never live again.

"You said further on, quoting me, that: "…the punishment of sin does NOT INCLUDE annihilation, so Jesus Christ was NOT annihilated." "…the punishment was eternal damnation." I agree with you completely. This is clearly what the Bible teaches." But I thought your whole argument was that annihilation IS the punishment for sin. As I said in my last comment, please explain. I'm confused." Sorry. I probably shouldn't have quoted the part "…the punishment of sin does NOT INCLUDE annihilation". My mistake.

Notice: I am now forcing myself to stay off this forum for the rest of today. See you tomorrow.

The punishment of hell is eternal? What is hell punishing after all the sinners die?

SoulWinner: That's exactly his problem. Nothing.

Matthew, there are at least two verses in Revelations that use the phrase forever and ever, besides all those that bear the phrase eternal death or damnation or perishing or punishment.You gave a very (may I say it politely?) weak argument for your position. If that's the best you can do……maybe find another explanation for that verse…such as that when it says forever and ever, it means forever and ever.

If I do not exist, that is not punishment. Your view is a finite time of punishment and then, poof, eternal nothing. That "eternal nothing" is not punishment.

I still do not see how you can hold the truth of Christ's sacrifice for ALL the punishment of sin in one hand, and yet in the other hand hold the fallacy that annihilation is part of sins punishment.
According to your view, if Christ was not annihilated, then He did not bear the full punishment of sin, and His sacrifice is in vain.

I want more than just a cursory agreement with parts of my argument. Please don't dodge. Answer my full argument.

*stepping in late to the discussion

How long do you believe these 'flames' last, Matthew, until the wicked's soul is destroyed?

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, "[Those who obey not the Gospel of Christ] shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power."

You may have addressed this verse before, but I don't exactly feel like reading 107 long responses about this topic :P Revelation 20:9-10 says, "And [the nations] marched up… but fire came down from heaven and consumed them and the devil who deceived th was thrown into the lake of sulfur and fire where the beast and false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night FOREVER AND EVER."

And about what the second death is, Revelation 20:14 says, "This is the second death: the lake of fire."

So the lake of fire is the second death. And, to let Scripture intepret Scripture, Revelation 20:10 says that the lake of fire is torment forever. Which would mean souls are in Hell being punished forever and ever.

I think he was serious when he said he wouldn't get back on today.

Yeah, I know :) Just for when he comes back on…

I don't see how eternal nothingness is eternal punishment. That seems like a relief from punishment to me…

And doesn't that mean that God's wrath doesn't endure forever? If one part of God doesn't last forever, then He isn't God! Or, He would also have to end His grace, and therefore, heaven wouldn't be eternal either. This is not extra-biblical logic. This is BIBLICAL logic, based on the BIBLE. How can you go against it?

Your silence is deafening, Matthew…

Give him a break, SoulWinner! There's like three of us and only one of him.
P.S. Have you been taking lessons from Mr. Wretched Man?

His dad has been helping him out. No, I haven't been taking lessons from Wretced Man. He has been strangely silent lately..

Sometimes people are busy :) I'm sure he'll be happy to come back and talk once he has a chance

He was commenting on every forum but this one this afternoon :) !

Aw, come on, give him a break. :D Like Octo said, there's three or so of us and only one of him.

Sorry for taking so long to get back on here. On Friday, there were two reasons I didn't get on here: 1) I didn't really feel like debating on the day that the BB materials came, and 2) I was considering what my reply should be. Yesterday I wasn't on Memverse at all, on account of a surprise birthday party for my mom. So again, I apologize and no, I wasn't giving up.

First of all, I have to say that I was wrong. I was using the wrong argument to prove my position. "If one part of God doesn't last forever, then He isn't God! Or, He would also have to end His grace, and therefore, heaven wouldn't be eternal either. This is not extra-biblical logic. This is BIBLICAL logic, based on the BIBLE. How can you go against it?" I will not go against it any more, SBG. I agree now that God's wrath IS eternal, and that hell will last forever.

BUT, I am not changing my position on immortality. Only God possesses immortality. 1 Timothy 6:16: "Who only hath immortality…" Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. Matthew 25:41: "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels…" Erika said it best: "[T]he everlasting fire is prepared FOR the devil and his angels - just as the ocean was prepared FOR fish. It is like saying, "Depart into the everlasting ocean prepared for the fish" - the people are cast into an atmosphere that was not designed for them. What happens when fire meets devil? The devil is tormented in the fire eternally according to Revelation. What happens when fire meets people? "Everlasting destruction" (2 Th. 1:9)."

As for the verses in Revelation, all I have to say is what I've said before: "In Exodus 21:6, we conclude that since death takes place, a servant could not serve his master literally for ever, and so "forever" in this verse is not literal. In 1 Kings 12:7, again the people cannot serve a king once he is dead, so we conclude that "forever" in this verse is not literal. In Jonah 2:6, we conclude that because just four verses later into the chapter it says "it [the fish] vomited out Jonah upon the dry land", "forever" in this verse is not literal either. In Revelation 14 and 20, I conclude that since dozens of verses elsewhere in the Bible say, in one way or another, that the wages of sin is death, not eternal life in misery, "forever" in these verses are not literal either. In all of these verses, "forever" means "as long as the thing shall last.""

So, now I agree with you: God's wrath does last forever. I also agree with you, that only Jesus could drink the whole cup of God's wrath. However, this does NOT prove that torment in hell could last forever! In fact, it proves the OPPOSITE! I will say it again: "God's wrath is infinite and only Jesus could drink the cup of God's wrath[. So] it is impossible for anyone else to drink the cup of God's wrath. Do you see what you are saying here? You are saying that God's wrath is so great that no earthly man can take it. What happens when a living being can't take something? THEY DIE!"

Please let me know if you see any problems with my reasoning.

Hello all.

What do you think of agreeing to disagree on this? I think both sides have had a sufficient chance to explain why they believe what they believe, and also given resources to explore the different views further.

I'm not sure we're being productive anymore, unless one or both sides is still interested in seeing if the Scripture is on the other side…

Yeah, I guess you're right.
I still don't want to leave it as it is because I believe that the doctrine of conditional immortality has serious consequences, but you're right that we probably won't convince each other to give up our convictions
.
May God grow us all in the knowledge of Himself and His Word.

OK Alex, sounds like a good idea. This topic has been taking up much of my time on Memverse anyhow. :)

Sorry, Alex, but I've got to put a final response in, because this issue isn't an "agree to disagree" subject; it literally can mean eternal death, day and night, forever and ever, for some who are being led away by very poor renderings of Scripture and even worse theology and Biblical hermeneutics. (I know I can be quite jovial and sarcastic on blogs, but when it comes to false teaching, I get very serious, very fast, especially false teachings that have many other heresies tied to those who propogate them, namely Pastor Greg Boyd, who's been quoted frequently as a defense of this unorthodox doctrine of Annihilationism.)

First, as for my long absence, I've actually been busy with this thing I do from time to time called a job, and it's kept me from being able to be on MemVerse much at all the past week or two. I'm sorry for not responding sooner.

I have done my homework now on the subject matter, as well as on Pastor Boyd (who is openly an Open Theist, which is heretical, and does not hold to the inerrancy and infallibility of Scripture), and instead of adding a written treatise to, I agree, a very long and progressively redundant and unproductive discussion. I will simply leave a weblink of video from Todd Friel who presents excellent responses to Greg Boyd's many unorthodox points on the subject matter.

@Everyone, please watch both videos. I know they are long, but you will see, as I've tried to state in other posts, that to hold this position automatically requires one to have a low view of God, a low view of sin, poor hermeneutics of Scripture, and, as with nearly all false teachings, a high view of man.

@JohnProject: I honestly didn't expect a response providing Scripture regarding the eternality of heaven, because everyone can figure out that for every verse one uses to point to heaven's eternal nature, the same must be said of hell. That would have been one of my points: There must be congruence, because God is the epitome of being congruent.

But my main point would have been to point out the audacity, though, of Annihilationists and Universalists, that you seem to have NO PROBLEM with heaven being eternal, and, consciously or unconsciously, convey an attitude as if it should be! This is astonishing! If anything should be argued as not being eternal, because it is SO UNFAIR, it would be the eternality of heaven for any human being! We are SO underserving of heaven, and SO deserving of an eternity in hell. Yet, you don't even seem to blink at this. In fact, you (@JohnProject) posit the HERESY that everyone will eventually be reconciled! (If it still had any cultural relevance today, I would tear my clothes in disgust and fury over such AUDACITY!) This is a damnable heresy!! Christ died in vain! God's wrath is puny! It's all about love, love, love! HERESY! NOT a simple agree-disagree issue! And I call on you to repent, or you will see the fullness of God's wrath "day and night, forever and ever." (Yes, this is THAT serious!)

Here is the link, everyone:

Sorry, also, for my tone, if many of you are not used to it yet. I tend to get all Martin Luther when false teaching is being attempted to be given equal footing with orthodox doctrine.

If you feel the need to reply to this post, post away; but I will no longer respond. I will let Mr. Friel be my response from here on out on the subject.

Thanks Wretched Man (a.k.a. Mr. Alexander) for researching this topic more than most (if not all) of us and giving us some concluding thoughts. You're right that this isn't an "agree to disagree" area; I just felt that the way I was trying to engage the arguments wasn't helping anyone. I think the idea of posting other links and letting each other think without the pressure of an "argument/debate" where someone might be trying to "win" is extremely helpful. I'll plan to watch both videos soon.

Also, I wonder if reading Romans 9 might help.

Dear Mr Wretched man,

I came across this short anecdote and thought of you.

“ a supply pastor was thumbing through the pulpit Bible when he came upon some sermon notes from the pastor. He scanned them a little and noticed this notation on the margin of one of his pages: yell like the dickens here– the arguments weak.

Just because you say so Mr wretched man doesn’t make it so.

And just because you found someone that agrees with your point of view doesn't make it so either. It is what it is, your point of view.
You do not have the final word on scriptural interpretation, except maybe in your own little world.

Just because Wm gets all bent out of shape because he doesn’t agree with my point of view is not really a good reason to resort to name calling.

I would like to quote Johnathon Peterson from the general chat forum titled tips on using these forums.

“3) Respect others here on their believes and how they view what the word of God tells them. Even though we all are under Christ, each denomination has it's own views and we should all be respectful of them. “””””

wretched man say's ,

(@JohnProject) posit the HERESY that everyone will eventually be reconciled! (If it still had any cultural relevance today, I would tear my clothes in disgust and fury over such AUDACITY!) This is a damnable heresy!! Christ died in vain! God's wrath is puny! It's all about love, love, love! HERESY! NOT a simple agree-disagree issue! And I call on you to repent, or you will see the fullness of God's wrath "day and night, forever and ever." (Yes, this is THAT serious!)

Wow! I agree with the quote “ The weaker the argument, the stronger the words.

Yes it all boils down to “ I believe in love , Yes wrenched man I am guilty of believing in love. Wait, isn’t God love? 1Jn4 7- 8 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 He who does not love does not know God, for God is love.

You believe in wrath, wrath, wrath. I believe in love, love,love. Fine.

Is Gods mercy ever lasting or not? Or does it end when Wretched man says so?
I never said there wasn’t hell or punishment. I never said there be no one in the lake of fire.

Maybe its your innate desire to see someone suffer for a billion years or wait, make that a trillion. But for no other reason or purpose but to give you, wretched Man, entertainment when you wake up in the morning.

Yes, I do believe that God has a purpose in his punishments and that eventually they will come to end.

Just like Man has his penal system where there is not a single sentence for every crime committed. (unless it was left up to you of coarse. Then they would all be burned at the stake ) I don't think that God has a blanket punishment for all those at the Great white throne judgment. God brought out the “books' for a reason, to judge everyman according to his works.
And some received a few stripes and some received many I already mentioned this, so I won't rehash it.

I hate the wicked just like you do, I hate them with a perfect hatred.
I hate them that hate our Lord and Savior just like you do. I'll be having some enemies as my footstool and they’ll be bowing down at the souls of my feet as well.

And finally.

Mr WM say's “ Sorry, also, for my tone, if many of you are not used to it yet. I tend to get all Martin Luther when false teaching is being attempted to be given equal footing with orthodox doctrine.”

In other words Mr WM, the only doctrine that is true, is the doctrine that Wretched man believes in. Am I reading this right?

On a side Note: Funny, wasn’t Martin Luther also considered a heretic at one time ?

I know that after you wrote this you probably had this warm fuzzy feeling of sanctimonious pride and that tingling satisfied feeling of self-righteousness come over you, that you Wretched man, told John Project off. Enjoy!

I personally think that you're just perturbed, because I am going to be neck and neck with you on the leader board!!

I see problems with your reasoning! If only God is eternal,hell is eternal,and heaven is eternal, then the only people in heaven are God,angels,and a few believers that just died. That is assuming that as soon as a person dies they got to heaven or hell. All angels should be dead, unless God keeps making new ones. Satan should have been dead a long time ago. His angels should have been dead a long time ago, but I sure can tell you that demons exist today. Then, after Jesus comes back and the thousand-year millenium ends, what happens. I want to know what happens when everyone dies, and God is left alone. Just like it was before he created heaven and earth.

Matthew actually said that he believes that God grants immortality to those He saves and to His angels. So those in heaven will exist eternally, but not those in hell. According to Matthew, that is. ;)

That makes absolutely no sense. Where is that in the Bible? So Satan and his angels are still eternal because they used to be heavenly angels?

I agree.

In addition, when the Bible says of God "Who alone is immortal" I think it is referring to the fact that He can't die. Usually when we speak of mortality, we speak of the human susceptibility to death and the obvious fact that everyone is going to die sometime (with the exception of those alive when Christ returns). Thus in that sense, we all have mortal bodies, but all men have an immortal soul that will consciously dwell forever in either heaven or hell.

Exactly what I was thinking.

Alright, I thought we were going to quit arguing. But since you guys are still up and at it, I will bring up another argument that should make you think. It is similar to the one Octavius gave against annihilationism, so I will phrase it the same way he did.
Jesus Christ took the WHOLE punishment of sin. None of it is left for His people to bear. He bore it ALL.
If that punishment entails or includes eternal torment, Jesus Christ is eternally tormented. If eternal spiritual existence in hell is a part of the punishment for sin, Jesus Christ took it.
That is heresy. Plain and simple. The Bible says Jesus Christ rose from the dead, and yet unconditional immortality teaches that He is eternally tormented.
And yet you say you believe that.
I hope you don't.

As for that "powerful" argument you gave against me: If Jesus Christ did not die, what happened to Him when He was on the cross? Sorry, but I don't understand what the problem is when I say that God the Son was dead (annihilated) for three days and nights.

Jesus Christ took the punishment of our sins on the cross, but we must accept his gift of eternal life. Otherwise we will be eternally tormented.

Excuse me, but I don't see how this refutes my argument. Could you explain it, please?

You have the same problem we do. You say that the unsaved are annihilated after death, and thus do not exist for all eternity. We say that the unsaved are tormented consciously for all eternity. In both cases, Jesus would have taken an eternal punishment on the cross. If you're right, He somehow took the punishment of eternal annihilation for millions while on the cross. If we're right, He somehow took the punishment of eternal conscious torment for millions while on the cross.

Either way, something supernatural took place, that He might be able to endure the full punishment in the space of those 3 hours on the cross.

I'm glad to see you admit that you do have a problem with your view. But I can explain the apparent "problem" that I have. Death is the punishment for sin. It happens to everybody. Death is an eternal state. That is, unless it is undone. You do agree that death can be and has been "undone" by bringing the dead back to life, right? All people will be resurrected (their death will be "undone") and judged on Judgment Day. The saved will be given eternal life (the curse of death will be taken from them). However, the unsaved, still under the curse, will be burned. As they are still under the curse of death, eventually their lives will be taken by the fire. Theoretically, God could raise them from the dead if He wanted to. However, God would have no reason to ever raise them from the dead, and if He did, then the new earth would again have sin in it. Therefore, they stay dead eternally. Death is an eternal state, but it does not have to last forever.
Jesus' death WAS eternal, but it was reversed. He, as the Son of Man, was under the death curse for the thirty-three years He lived on earth. Eventually, that curse took its toll on His earthly body. He died, but then His Father raised Him up again and forty days later took Him back to heaven, where there was no death curse.

If a sinner dies, why would God raise him form the dead then kill him again? That makes no sense.

Why does He let the saved die at all when they will be raised again? That makes no sense, either. My point is that God has His own reasons. He knows what He is doing, and we have no right to question it.

It does make sense for a believer or anyone to die ,because the wages of sin is death. When sin entered this world, man began to die. My question is why would God kill someone twice?

You bring up a fair argument, Matthew. If Hell is eternal, how could Christ have taken such an eternal punishment and only suffered for 5-6 [Insert your number here] hours? (We all agree its something less than 24!)

Here's my answer. It's a bit mathematical, but hopefully that will be okay :) We're finite beings. We have an end (kind of). And God's wrath against our sin is infinite. So for us, infinite punishment for finite creatures means that the wrath will go on for an infinite amount of time.

But Jesus is infinite. So for infinite wrath against him, the infinite wrath is swallowed up by an infinite being. So he only has to suffer for a finite time because he is infinite.

Or you can picture it with rectangles. Fit them on a timeline. And, because God's wrath is infinite, one of the pairs of sides must be infinite. For finite humans, that means the rectangle stretches out infinitely across the timeline of time. For Christ, the rectangle stretches UP infinitely (because he is an infinite being), but only for a finite amount of time.

It's like an equation where infinity = x times y, where x is the person, and y is the amount of time the person must suffer. Either x (the person), or y (the time) must be infinite to satisfy the divine equation.

I just wanted to interject a comment here (though I'm supposed to stay off commenting as much as possible).

Josiah: That's very good. I agree completely. We don't have a problem with our view, Matthew.

Matthew: Whether God undid Jesus' death or not, you still have the problem of God ceasing to exist. Please explain that.
And if you do not believe that Christ ceased to exist, please explain why we would trust in the efficacy of His sacrifice if he did not take the full punishment of our sin (which, in your view, is annihilation).
If annihilation is part of the punishment, yet Jesus Christ did not suffer annihilation, then He did not take the full punishment of our sin, and there is something left for us to bear. If He did not take the full punishment, then His sacrifice is worthless and He died in vain. He died to save us, but if He didn't take the full punishment, then He didn't save us, and His death was useless.
To be consistent with the doctrine of Christ's sacrifice, you must say that Christ was annihilated, which is heresy.
And if you don't say that, then Christ's sacrifice was useless, which is also heresy.

Please think on this, Matthew.
It is not a happy thing to be caught in God's wrath.

@ Octavius: Glad to see you back, if only temporarily. ;) Good points.

@ Matthew: I didn't say that we had a problem with our view. I said that if we're going by your standards that conclude that our view has a problem, then you must admit that your view has a problem as well. But then I said that in either case, we must believe that some supernatural transaction took place in order for Christ to take the infinite punishment of Hell for the millions He was saving. And Josiah clarified that by saying that the transaction was possible because Christ is an infinite being. In fact, that was the very reason He had to be God; He had to be able to suffer an infinite punishment on the cross, and yet still rise from the dead on the third day.

If you told an evolutionist or an atheist that he would be punished in hell for a little while then die, he would see no reason to become a christian since he already believes he will become nothing after this life. Which means that atheists are somewhat right about what will happen to them when they die.

Josiah, I see at least four problems with your argument. I'm sorry to come down hard on you, who have never come down really hard on me, but your argument is the way it is and I have to come down hard on it.

1. I thought, all along, that you guys were saying you believed that all humans are immortal. You believe that all humans have an infinite lifespan. To be suspended, of course, but an infinite lifespan. However, Josiah, in your argument you used MY presupposition to obtain YOUR conclusion. The exact words you said: "We're finite beings. We have an end (kind of)." And yet this is the very thing you are arguing against.

2. Eternity is not two-dimensional. There is no two sides to infinity. Your argument is paradoxical because it said that "infinite punishment for finite creatures means that the wrath will go on for an infinite amount of time." This very argument contradicts itself. If we are finite beings, we have an end, then how come our torment lasts for eternity? That means we DON'T have an end!

3. I already said (though perhaps you didn't catch it) that I don't believe that God's wrath has an end. This is what I said earlier: "God's wrath is infinite and only Jesus could drink the cup of God's wrath[. So] it is impossible for anyone else to drink the cup of God's wrath… God's wrath is so great that no earthly man can take it. What happens when a living being can't take something? THEY DIE!"

4. Even if your argument is valid, you have given me a valid way to confirm that my argument doesn't have the problem Octavius suggested either. I can use the same argument you did. Except for the two-dimensional eternity part, it would be valid for me.

@Octavius: Your argument is harder to answer. I believe that I may have been using the words "death" and "annihilation" as one and the same before. They are not exactly the same word. Death is death, like Erika said. It is eternal, but it does not have to last forever. Annihilation is death, but with the proviso that it is not undone. Ever.
So with that said, the punishment for the wicked is death. What happens to them is annihilation. That is because God would not have a reason to raise up the wicked once they were burned but He DID have a reason to raise up His Son from the dead. The wicked are annihilated, not because annihilation itself is the punishment for sin, but because God has no reason to raise them ever again.

@SoulWinner:"It does make sense for a believer or anyone to die ,because the wages of sin is death. When sin entered this world, man began to die. My question is why would God kill someone twice?" To answer your first sentence: If this is true, then why did Enoch and Elijah not die? Weren't they under the death curse too? To answer your third sentence: Because He needs to judge them. The whole world will be judged.
"If you told an evolutionist or an atheist that he would be punished in hell for a little while then die, he would see no reason to become a christian since he already believes he will become nothing after this life. Which means that atheists are somewhat right about what will happen to them when they die." It doesn't matter whether atheists are right (partially) about what will happen to them when they die. It matters what they are NOT right about. That is, that they will be burned to death if they don't believe; and they will live forever with Jesus if they do believe.

I found one major fault with your refutation of Josiah's argument. You said that we said that humans are infinite beings because of their ability to exist eternally. This is not true!! Infinity is a completely different concept than immortality. Infinity extends eternally in both directions, but immortality extends only forwards.

Also, you said that "God would not have a reason to raise up the wicked once they were burned but He DID have a reason to raise up His Son from the dead." Wait. So God did not punish His Son in the way He would otherwise punish Christians? That sounds like injustice to me. As Octavius said, "If annihilation is part of the punishment, yet Jesus Christ did not suffer annihilation, then He did not take the full punishment of our sin, and there is something left for us to bear. If He did not take the full punishment, then His sacrifice is worthless and He died in vain. He died to save us, but if He didn't take the full punishment, then He didn't save us, and His death was useless." As Octavius also said, that would be heresy. Then Christ must have been annihilated, according to you. That would also be heresy. Annihilation does not match up with Scripture.

"Also, you said that "God would not have a reason to raise up the wicked once they were burned but He DID have a reason to raise up His Son from the dead." Wait. So God did not punish His Son in the way He would otherwise punish [humans]? That sounds like injustice to me." You are deliberately twisting my words. What I am talking about, Jesus' resurrection, has nothing to do with what you are talking about, Jesus' punishment taken on for us.

I'm pretty sure when we go to hell we are no longer in the physical realm , but in the spiritual realm. Our soul cannot die.

I know I have brought this up before but, SoulWinner, our souls can indeed die. See Matthew 10:28 and Isaiah 10:18.

Matthew 25:46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”,

Revelation 14:11-And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and [a]whoever receives the mark of his name.”

@ SoulWinner: Both of those passages have been discussed before. You should read back through previous pages to get the responses from both sides. ;)

Matthew, I don't think I am twisting your words. If Christ took the punishment we deserved, then He should have been annihilated, according to your beliefs. Where is my logic faulty here?

P.S. If you haven't watched the video Wretched Man suggested in his final post here, please do. It may answer some of your arguments.